To the Directors
Interesting way to make money.
You just inspired the making of "Slumdog Millionaire"
[deleted]
MovieChat Forums > Born Into Brothels: Calcutta's Red Light Kids (2005) Discussion > To the Directors
On the one hand, I understand your irritation with Western imperialism, but on the other, I doubt that the flowering child sex trade, the rampant epidemics, the poverty, and the starvation are noble or necessary choices and I think that they should not be perceived as such.
shareI have to agree. I feel that if a culture wants its children to work, get married young, and other things, but I'm sure we can both agree that starvation and disease aren't good things.
shareI think you completely misunderstood the purpose of the film. It does not seek to impose western ideals on Indian society. Its purpose is to show things as they are and let the viewers draw their own conclusions.
You somehow took this on as a personal challenge and tried to defend yourself by lashing out against the west. I think you have some issues when you say that if you see westerners in your NATIVE land you will smack them. Who suddenly made you the guardian (let alone the voice) of India?
Your english is way to good to have grown up in india in abject poverty, there fore you aren't really quallified to may that statement.
share
Ive lived in India all my life and when i see American films about India it really suprises me, do they really think India is like that???
A common theme in all western movies about India is poverty , which not only is irritating its down right degrading aswell.
You people talk about poverty in India, well ive lived in India all my life. Yes their are a few people living in slums here but so what??? Ive seen people begging in New york,Cape town, London etc.
SO why do westerners continue to focus on poverty stricken people in India??? Becuase India is a poor third world country??? IT IS NOT.
India is the fourth biggest economy in the world. If India is a poor third world country <like many of you continue to believe> then im sorry to say our world is really screwed up.
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Your english is way to good to have grown up in india in abject poverty
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Why do u say that?? you dont think the lower starta in India has the ability to read and write english??
Incase you didnt know English is one of the Official Languages of India morever India has the highest speaking english population in the world today.
Do your research before posting:
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/in.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/country_profiles/1154019.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
Could you direct us to any films that you feel portrays India respectfully and honestly?
Om Mani Padme Hum
I worked as a volunteer in Calcutta in 2003, and i have to say that the problem of prostitution is very real. Having seen Calcutta, i did not think much of the movie (although i can see why others do). However, i do think that the intentions of the producers/directors were good. i am a Malaysian of indian descent currently residing in Australia and in no way did i think the documentary "insulted" Indian values. being of Indian descent, i think i can safely say that NO Indian woman would tolerate her husband/son visiting the local brothel. neither is it in "Indian" culture for women to take part in the sex trade or permit their children from doing so.
While in calcutta i did visit the red light district. I've met these women, spoke with them ,laughed with them, cried with them. Given the choice, they wouldn't be in the industry. most of them crave love, affection and marriage. they seemed content doing what their mothers, and grandmothers have done for years and years because it ensured that they had a roof over their heads and a meal on the table.unfortunately for them, they don't have a choice. its do or die. but the reality of the situation is that if these women do not continue to do what they are doing, they would lose their livelihoods.
so please do not vent your rage based on the pretext that the documentary does not respect indian culture. because prostitution is not part of traditional indian culture. It is a job, and sometimes people are stuck in jobs that they dont like and doesnt pay well.
My post meant you didn't grow up in india IN ABJECT POVERTY, i'm well aware many parts of india are not poor,but those that are don't usually teach their kids to speak and write english as well as you.
I'm English, many parts of England are in aject poverty and I don't condecend to know how those people feel. Get over yourself.
English is widely spoken all over India, by the wealthy as well as the poor.
Om Mani Padme Hum
I'm, well aware of that, but the way this geeza writes is very westernised, leading me to believe he has spent time in the west and therefore wasn't brought up by a prostitute, in abject poverty, in some ghetto of Bombay (i am also aware it's not called Bombay anymore).
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And do you presume that all Indians think as you do?
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I dont presume that, but however i do believe all Indians will respond like i did if someone reffered to my country in a degraded way.
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don't feel he/she was simply dissing India. Are you completely intolerant of critical views? If so, you are a poor represenative for your country.
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Intolerant??? What the........... DID U Read what he said??? Secondly i checked he's a new user so its kinda obvious he created this account to diss at India.
Im not intolerant towards critical views but however ignorant rants do irk me.
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I'm, well aware of that, but the way this geeza writes is very westernised, leading me to believe he has spent time in the west and therefore wasn't brought up by a prostitute, in abject poverty, in some ghetto of Bombay
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Huh??? Are u talking about me?? I never said that i was born in abject poverty nor have i spent a lot of time in the west. Ive just visited a few places on holiday.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
So are you trying to tell us that this film is completely false? That prostitution and poverty does not exist in India? Are we to believe that Born into the Brothels was made entirely in a Hollywood studio with the express intent of maligning India?
Om Mani Padme Hum
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So are you trying to tell us that this film is completely false...............
e express intent of maligning India?
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The point i was making is that why do ALL documentries about India have to be about poverty or prostitution?? Is that what you people think India is about??? A Land Full of Beggars or Aids Patients?? <<Aboslute Rubbish>> Because you'll start believing that after watching these documentries.
Secondly what is the pont of making a documentry about Children of Indian Brothels??? will it improve their plight??? <NO> If the makers really wished to "help" orphaned children, shouldnt they have started with their own country?? instead of coming half way around the world to India.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
I seen plenty of documentaries about India that don't bang on about poverty, it's just this one does.
If I just took a view of india from documentaries I'd seen, I'd think everyone either worked in a call centre, or for Bollywood.
All documentries about India are about "poverty".
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
Well, most documentaries are about problems of some sort. They are not to be denigrated because they bring up uncomfortable issues. Some people welcome a discussion of social issues. Are you so blindly patriotic that you can't stomach anything the least bit uncomfortable?
Om Mani Padme Hum
Oh come on are you so blinded by your sense of patriotism that you cannot accept the fact that what was featurd in the film is very much a reality. You complain that the film presents India, its poverty and prostution in a degradding way, when the truth is that, that is the way things are, open your eyes and look around you poverty and prostitution are real and it is you as the average middle class man that makes them feel degradeable cause you haven't done much to elavate the poverty and the misery in these areas.
What kind of a silly pride is it that makes you accept these horrible conditions of living as a part of your culture?? We should be ashamed of it and instead work towards changing things. You complained that the westerners came and detoriated the country, Well nes flash they came and went and we continued with this horendous tradition. There is a huge class divider that exits and the middle class generally truns a blind eye to the general state of poverty. Apathy breeds content.
So stop taking pride in something that is shameful and start caring about things that actually matter.
No I am not a western I am Indian and I spent the first 18 years of my life there and I am ery familar with the streets. I am proud to be Indian and take pride in my culture but refuse to condem and criticize in the name of cultural pride what I see is to be true.
The only way to reduce poverty and ignorance is through education, this is the only way that this great divider can be marred.
The economic situation in India has extremes. Yes, there are many people living comfortably. There are also many people living in poverty.
share[deleted]
Being Indian myself, the only thing that comes to mind is poverty, filth, corruption, and human extcrement everywhere, dont be surprise if you don't step in it if you vaction there or live there.
Corruption is why in this documentry you see the situation at the ration office and passport office.
I do believe user who started this thread is an imbecile, he can make that arguement about drug users, prostitutes, gangbangers, or whatever criminal activity; god forbid someone should actually try to get out of that kind of lifestyle and make their lives better.
The documentry was not bias or subjective at all, it was just that, a documentry. Now saying the directors was imposing western thinking on these people is something i really don't understand.
The damage done to india started before europeans came to India which broke 2 huge chunks from the country.
Most "on-indians"i know think of india as a place of deep spiritality, beauty, history, etc. I, however see it differently, i guess it depends on the person.
btw
aerohit-1 is an imbecile ;-)
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Being Indian myself, the only thing that comes to mind is poverty, filth, corruption, and human extcrement everywhere, dont be surprise if you don't step in it if you vaction there or live the
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On behalf of all Indians id like to tell you to go f uck yourself.
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I do believe user who started this thread is an imbecile
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and i do believe your worse.
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The damage done to india started before europeans came to India which broke 2 huge chu nks from the country.
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*beep*
Your Indian are you??? Really?? from where exactly???
Personally i think your just a internet nerd who created a new account to post here. Which is just sad.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
"On behalf of all Indians id like to tell you to go f uck yourself."
What makes you so sure you are qualified to speak on the behalf of all Indians?
"Personally i think your just a internet nerd who created a new account to post here. Which is just sad."
And why would that be sad? Are you not posting here as well?
Om Mani Padme Hum
Because i am an Indian who has lived all his life in India.
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And why would that be sad? Are you not posting here as well?
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Creating a new account just to diss at India is Sad.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
Because i am an Indian who has lived all his life in India.
And do you presume that all Indians think as you do?
Creating a new account just to diss at India is Sad.
I don't feel he/she was simply dissing India. Are you completely intolerant of critical views? If so, you are a poor represenative for your country.
Om Mani Padme Hum share
Well, if you would like an Indian point of view, try any of the documentaries by Anand Patwardhan. I especially recommend the "Hamara shahar - Bombay, Our City." It tell the story of 4 million slum dwellers of Bombay who make up half the cities population.
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tell the story of 4 million slum dwellers of Bombay who make up half the cities population
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Firstly its Mumbai now NOT Bombay.
Half the cities population??? hmm its about 38%, The only reason the percentage of people living in slums in mumbai is so high is because Mumbai is the the Second Most Expensive Real Estate city in the world. << After New York>>
The people living in those mumbai "slums" are not beggars, they are people who havent been able to find/afford housing in this island city of 15 million.
Dharavi "mumbai's biggest slum colony" has a collective net income of 500 million dollars, Thats F ucking amazing.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
A survey of toilet facilities in Dharavi in 1997 revealed that there was one toilet for every 1488 people. However, 80 per cent of these mainly public toilets were unusable because of blockages, filth and disrepair. While some homes have their own facilities, these are few and far between.
Om Mani Padme Hum
Wow your reffering to a survey thats 8 years old. Oh yeah your point holds water.
And yet they are still worth more than 500million dollars. <2005 Article by Newsweek>.
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Sorry if I offended.
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Not offended, just pointing out certain facts.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
From the International Herald Tribune May 9, 2005
While India's growth makes it an economic and political player to watch in the next decades, the country remains desperately poor. Almost a quarter of India's 1.1 billion people live on less than $1 a day; 700 million more live on less than $2 a day.
Shocking that you would put a laughing graphic on your post. Do you find this issue funny? And have things changed so completely in those 8 years? My intention is not to insult India, but to point out that there are serious issues that you would do well to accept. You can't address a problem if you don't acknowledge one even exists. You seem to be more concerned with your ego than the plight of Mumbai slum dwellers and the children of Kolkata's red light district.
Om Mani Padme Hum
Absolutely rubbish!!!! 700 million people live on less than 2 dollars??? what the hell are u smoking.............
Get your facts straight Jackass:
Firstly India is about 9 times cheaper to live in than the US, so that assertion of living of 2 or 1 dollar a day doesnt count.
The Indian Middle class is one of the worlds biggest constituting 350 Million people , now add another 8 million FAMILIES who have a DECLARED income of more than 10 lakhs <Constituting the Upper Class in India> you get a number around 450 million to 500 million who live on the so called "second world" standard.
According to the Government of India stats Indians under report their incomes by about eight times so we know that the number of 450 million is premature.
Blows the figures you stated right in your face doesnt it??
Now according to the world CIA factbook the Indian Economy is worth about 3.3 trillion dollars making it the WORLDS THIRD RICHEST. Morever India's Per capita income is about 3,300 dollars making it a Middle Income Earning country.
Dude Things continue to blow up on your face . Perhaps the next time you should use figures that u can actually back up instead of using rubbish newspaper articles.
The Number of people living under the poverty line in India is about 22-23 percent of the population or 220 million people.
My Sources : CIA and the BBC Country Profile
Link:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/in.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/country_profiles/1154019.stm
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
I agree with you Lucifer. What are the documentarians intension while making this film??? To relieve the children out of poverty?? Or exploitation for the basis of recognition??
If they wished to make a documentry about children living in poverty why not make one about american street children??? Why come to India?? I seem to remember a documentry called Streetwise which focused on the lives of American teenagers living in Poverty in Seattle.
Which begs the question why India??? Unfortunateley the answer we come up with is Exploitation for Recognition. Everybody knows a documentry about a foreign society finds more favour with the academy than a documentry about the gritty realities of western life. < Super Size me and Tupac Resurrection far superior documentries won just a nomination >
So Lucifer's assertion that this documentry is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to malign the Nation and society of India is pretty accurate.
I think that's a load of crap. Suffering children are suffering children, regardless of where they live. If the documentary were to have been on children in America, undoubtedly there would be a complaint on this board about why no one's making a documentary on the children in India. What about the suffering children in Sudan? Zambia? China? Mexico? Iraq? Sri Lanka? England? Peru? Cuba? Haiti? Need I go on? How absurd to suggest that this documentary not be made. You saw as well as I did that these children's very own mothers called them c*unts and b*itches. You also saw that they were discouraged from obtaining education and were pressured into prostitution. You heard the incredible thoughts these children expressed. THAT was the point of the documentary. Brilliancy is everywhere, and it's a shame that it's not given the chance to flourish. Perhaps if you feel that suffering children in America are more important than suffering children in India (or Sudan, or Zambia, or China...), you should make your own documentary. Better yet, DO something about it. Take a homeless child into your home. Sell your computer and give the money to a poor family in Rwanda...or would that be taking away money for an American kid? The filmmakers of Born into Brothels helped someone other than themselves. The proceeds from this project have secured these children's educations (all the way through university) if they choose to obtain that education. That's what I got out of it. If you can choose to better a life, be it your own or someone else's, do it. The original poster is daft for even suggesting that child prostitution and physical and verbal abuse are part of a culture that any rational human being should condone. Living in India doesn't give you the right to force children to be sex slaves because "that's the way it is." It's that same way of thinking that kept slavery acceptable in America for as long as it did.
Also, I mean really, if you have access to the Internet, can you really call yourself poor? Can you really say you know what it's like?
What I got from this doco that hasn't been mentioned here, is that the brothels have alot of cultural shame around them, you saw how there was a blanket refusal to let these kids into boarding school, would these kids have even been considered if it wasn't for the cameras and this woman pushing to get them in and offer them a way out of the brothels. These kids aren't just poor they also had the stigma of being the children of prostitutes. And they live where their mothers work.
I didn't see this as a movie where she exploited these children for the sake of her career, she gave back to them, she offered them a way out, I loved how she took them to the beach, showing them things outside of their lives, expanding their choices of what they could expect for themselves. And look at that boy who went to Holland, his artwork was stunning, would he have been able to have done something about that otherwise, even after his mother was killed, he stood a really good chance of nose diving.
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yes it does. It's still an indicator of poverty.
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No it doesnt, i should probably explain to you why its not a fair economic indicator but why bother.
The point i was making elizabeth_ashley44 is that why did these filmakers have to come to India??
If they wanted to make a documentry about street children they could have made it in the US. I would have no problem if this documentry had been made by an Indian who actually understands the dynamics of the country. We've seen far too many documentries in which westerners come to foreign lands and try to "help and enlighten the poor" , Frankly im sick of it.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
Firstly India is about 9 times cheaper to live in than the US, so that assertion of living of 2 or 1 dollar a day doesnt count.
So your saying that one who lives on $18, or even $9 a day in the U.S. is not in poverty?
If they wanted to make a documentry about street children they could have made it in the US.
Nemesis101 claims that this has already been done. He/she writes,
I seem to remember a documentry called Streetwise which focused on the lives of American teenagers living in Poverty in Seattle.
I would have no problem if this documentry had been made by an Indian who actually understands the dynamics of the country.
So here's your big chance...Please explain the Indian dynamics of child prostituion. Please...explain. We're all listening.
Om Mani Padme Hum share
The reason that the one or two dollars a day assertion is not accurate because it doesnt take into account the Cost of Living Factor of a country. One of the reasons that Per capita Income <PCI> is not used to define the state of average citizens in a country is exactly because of this, Economics around the world now use Purchasing Power Parity <PPP> which takes into account Inflation and Cost of living factor.
India's PPP is around 3,300 dollars per annum making it a MIDDLE INCOME EARNING COUNTRY and NOT a poor one as you seem to believe.
Morever although ive said this before let me repeat it since u dont seem to grasp the point. $3,300 per Person equates to a 3.3 trillion dollar economy which would make India the FOURTH RICHEST < After the US ,EU and China>.
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I seem to remember a documentry called Streetwise which focused on the lives of American teenagers living in Poverty in Seattle.
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I think what nemesis meant was there are children living in the US in pretty abysmal conditions, so what did they have to come to India to do the documentry??When they could have done the same thing in the US
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So here's your big chance...Please explain the Indian dynamics of child prostituion. Please...explain. We're all listening.
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Ive never stated i understand totally the social dynamics of the India, which is exactly my point, If i dont completely understand it how do u expect yanks who've never been to India too???
Ive said this before ill say it again, most people are sick of watching documentries which show the exploits of Westerners in devoloping countries and how they try to "help" or "enlighten" the natives. These themes might have been fit for the 1950's and 60's but not in the 21st century.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
Firstly India is about 9 times cheaper to live in than the US, so that assertion of living of 2 or 1 dollar a day doesnt count.
i should probably explain to you why its not a fair economic indicator but why bother.
The reason that the one or two dollars a day assertion is not accurate because it doesnt take into account the Cost of Living Factor of a country.
Since my response to this was "So your saying that one who lives on $18, or even $9 a day in the US is not in poverty?" I think I have a grasp of the basics of economics, so you need not explain it to me. I notice that you didn't answer my sincere question, so I will ask it again. So your saying that one who lives on $18, or even $9 a day in the US is not in poverty?
Morever although ive said this before let me repeat it since u dont seem to grasp the point. $3,300 per Person equates to a 3.3 trillion dollar economy which would make India the FOURTH RICHEST < After the US ,EU and China>.
And I responded by saying that the growth of the middle class (which was virtually nonexistent when India became a free nation in August 1947) indicates that economic prosperity has indeed been very impressive in India, but the DISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH has been very uneven.
I think what nemesis meant was there are children living in the US in pretty abysmal conditions, so what did they have to come to India to do the documentry??When they could have done the same thing in the US
Well, what nemesis was also saying was that they DID do the same thing in the US, in a documentary called Streetwise. I hope nemesis learned a lot from this documentary. I haven't seen it, but I would like to for it sounds interesting. It would do no one any good to just ignore it and the serious social issues it brings up. Let's not stick our heads in the sand and pretend problems don't exist.
If i dont completely understand it how do u expect yanks who've never been to India too???
Zana Briski is from London, she is not a Yank. She has also been to India. Her time in India, and Kolkata in particular, is well documented in the documentary titled Born into the Brothels.
Om Mani Padme Hum share
The reason that the one or two dollars a day assertion is not accurate because it doesnt take into account the Cost of Living Factor of a country. One of the reasons that Per capita Income <PCI> is not used to define the state of average citizens in a country is exactly because of this, Economics around the world now use Purchasing Power Parity <PPP> which takes into account Inflation and Cost of living factor.
India's PPP is around 3,300 dollars per annum making it a MIDDLE INCOME EARNING COUNTRY and NOT a poor one as you seem to believe.
Morever although ive said this before let me repeat it since u dont seem to grasp the point. $3,300 per Person equates to a 3.3 trillion dollar economy which would make India the FOURTH RICHEST < After the US ,EU and China>.
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I seem to remember a documentry called Streetwise which focused on the lives of American teenagers living in Poverty in Seattle.
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I think what nemesis meant was there are children living in the US in pretty abysmal conditions, so what did they have to come to India to do the documentry??When they could have done the same thing in the US
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So here's your big chance...Please explain the Indian dynamics of child prostituion. Please...explain. We're all listening.
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Ive never stated i understand totally the social dynamics of the India, which is exactly my point, If i dont completely understand it how do u expect yanks who've never been to India too???
Ive said this before ill say it again, most people are sick of watching documentries which show the exploits of Westerners in devoloping countries and how they try to "help" or "enlighten" the natives. These themes might have been fit for the 1950's and 60's but not in the 21st century.
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Frankly, I don't care about India's 3300 PPP when 25% of the people (~250 million) are living on less than $1 a day. I don't care how cheap the cost of living is in India, that is dirt poor. You're probably just a typical spoiled rich Indian brat who doesn't care that a quarter of his countrymen live in filth , selling their daughters into prostitution just to get by.
Oh really??? Well Jackass, 11% of americans live below the poverty line. In case you cant calculate the numbers, thats 33 million people living below the poverty line in the RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
According to The US CENSUS, America has the highest percentage of children living under the poverty line in the devoloped world.
You should look at your own country before commenting on others.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
The reason that the one or two dollars a day assertion is not accurate because it doesnt take into account the Cost of Living Factor of a country. One of the reasons that Per capita Income <PCI> is not used to define the state of average citizens in a country is exactly because of this, Economics around the world now use Purchasing Power Parity <PPP> which takes into account Inflation and Cost of living factor.
India's PPP is around 3,300 dollars per annum making it a MIDDLE INCOME EARNING COUNTRY and NOT a poor one as you seem to believe.
Morever although ive said this before let me repeat it since u dont seem to grasp the point. $3,300 per Person equates to a 3.3 trillion dollar economy which would make India the FOURTH RICHEST < After the US ,EU and China>.
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From your link http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/in.html
GDP (purchasing power parity): $3.319 trillion (2004 est.)
GDP - per capita purchasing power parity - $3,100 (2004 est.)
Lucifer_nib_666, do you know what "purchasing power parity" means?
Your ignorance exceeds even your arrogance and bigotry! LOL
And lets remember, most poor people in the west have TVs, cars, heat, hot water, food, Internet, access to education, etc. Not exactly poor by third world standards. $15000 a year for a family of three is poor in USA or Europe, but middle class in someplace like india.
hi there.
I find myself compelled to point out that the documentary wasn't made for you, or for anyone in India, or anyone in the Global South for that matter, so you should probably go back to the corner shack with the karaoke and sunday night super vcd movies (pirated, of course), where you saw this and demand the fraction of a penny that you paid to see it back.
The documentary was made for people in the West. By the way, the whole cinema/TV thing is a Western invention, and so why don't you mind your own business and focus your critiques on shadow puppets and mud plays. Frankly, I am offended by your remarks; I don't think you understand the cathode ray culture.
Lastly, the fate of your nation, economy and all, rests in the hands of westerners, not your own.
TeeHee
Although i have no interest in taking part in this "Intellectual" discussion anymore, i feel your pathetic remarks advocate a similar response kisul1492.(What kind of id is kisul1492 anyway, clearly you're retarded)
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I find myself compelled to point out that the documentary wasn't made for you, or for anyone in India, or anyone in the Global South for that matter, so you should probably go back to the corner shack with the karaoke and sunday night super vcd movies (pirated, of course), where you saw this and demand the fraction of a penny that you paid to see it back.
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This is the most amount of bullsh!t I've ever heard in so few lines. You really are irretrievably stupid. I feel sorry for your parents...go give them a slap for spawning such a bell-end, then you can do them and the rest of us a favour and drop off the end of the Earth.
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The documentary was made for people in the West
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Really??? No seriously...Really??
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and so why don't you mind your own business and focus your critiques on shadow puppets and mud plays
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No. and No. What does being owned feel like? Twat.
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Frankly, I am offended by your remarks;
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Frankly I dont give a Sh*t
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Lastly, the fate of your nation, economy and all, rests in the hands of westerners, not your own.
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No you Stupid f-ck, The Fate of your nation lies in the hands of China, The Fate of your economy on the Middle East and the fate of your job on India.
What you need to do is pull your head out from between Bush's wrinkly scrotum and look up the facts, before someone else drops you on your head like your mother did when she was too busy having raw sex with me to concentrate on holding your slimy little body.
I thank you, You Inbred Wank Stain.
Adieus
Its Time To Rage Against The Machine
[deleted]
Two words elizabeth: GROSS EXPLOITATION.
lol....i just love the way u started that.....I agree with you Lucifer. im sorry thats just funny sh it
You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. ~Plato
Get your facts straight Jackass
Ahh... name calling.I remember doing that in elementary school. It's kinda cute, really.
Firstly India is about 9 times cheaper to live in than the US, so that assertion of living of 2 or 1 dollar a day doesnt count
yes it does. It's still an indicator of poverty.
The Indian Middle class is one of the worlds biggest constituting 350 Million people
The growth of the middle class (which was virtually non-existent when India became a free nation in August 1947) indicates that economic prosperity has indeed been very impressive in India, but the DISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH has been very uneven.
Om Mani Padme Hum share
[deleted]
[deleted]
I know that it is Mumbai (since 1997, I believe). I was giving the title of the documentary (and for consistancy sake, I referred to it as Bombay). Sorry if I offended.
shareOMG i can't believe I am reading this. Lucifer and the poster you both seem to turn a blind eye into the issues in India.
I am Indian, American-born myself and I loved this documentary. There was a positive message in it. Nobody was imposing any values like "being poor is bad. Here's a camera it was made in the USA!!" You obviously didn't understand the purpose of the documentary.
First of all, it was a very specific subject matter. It wasn't about india but the red light district in calcutta. It was about a generation of kids who had choices to make and in the end you find out what path they go on (go to boarding school or follow their parent's wishes of staying in the business). Although they were poor, they focused on the running of the brothel business and how important it was for the women to have their daughters continue the business after them.
Geez you uber-patriotics need to loosen up and open your mind. Don't be so paranoid about the Western view of India.. recently it is looked upon positively with the booming economy. Don't take everything at face value.
Every time you eat a steak a hippies’ hacky sack goes in the gutter. ~Patton Oswalt
I have nothing more to add to this discussion except echoing Nemesis words :GROSS EXPLOITATION.
PS: Im not a Uber-patriot as u put it. And i know the distribution of wealth in India has been uneven.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
Gross Exploitation? It seems that you are more concerned with INEXCUSABLE DENIAL.
Om Mani Padme Hum
Thank you. Since when did helping people become gross exploitation? I don't understand how people can act like children being forced into prostitution is exploitation on the part of the film makers. It's gross exploitation on the part of the people in the Red Light Disctrict who allow it to happen. I still stand by what I said about it being irrelevant about where the children are and where the help comes from. It's not like documentaries *haven't* been made about poverty in America. This film wasn't about poverty in India. It was about children born into brothels. If you think that's an okay part of your Indian culture, my heart goes out to your misguided soul. THAT'S all I was trying to say.
share
How can it be gross exploitation???
Well dont believe me, just read this article from the BBC :
Born into Brothels, a film about the children of prostitutes in Calcutta, India, is up for an Oscar for best documentary. But it has been criticised for the way it shows the children and their surroundings.
In the squalor of Sonagachi, Calcutta's red light district, seven children are taught to document their lives using cameras by British-born photographer Zana Briski.
Their experiences are captured in Ms Briski's documentary Born into Brothels, an uplifting portrayal of children battling heavy odds while retaining their innocence.
The film has already been shown at 30 festivals around the world, winning several audience awards for Ms Briski and American co-director Ross Kauffman.
The documentary tracks Ms Briski's efforts to get the children - four girls and three boys - out of their environment.
But as well as receiving high praise, it has provoked claims that it misrepresented its young stars - and left them worse off than when they started.
Partha Banerjee, who interpreted for the Bengali-speaking children and English-speaking film-makers, said there were "ethical and stylistic" problems with the documentary.
In a letter to the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, which organises the Oscars, he said the experience made the children's lives "worse", not better.
And he questioned whether Born into Brothels should be considered a documentary at all because of the use of fictional shots.
"I visited these children a number of times over the last couple of years and found out that almost all the children are now living even a worse life than they were in before Ms Briski began working with them," he wrote.
"The children's despair has exacerbated because they'd hoped that with active involvement in Ms Briski's camera project, there would be an opportunity for them to live a better life."
But the film-makers have said the children have changed for the better, are more "empowered" and e-mail and text them to say how much they miss them and ask about the Oscars.
Ms Briski and Mr Kauffman plan to open an arts school in Sonagachi but have decided not to show the documentary in India because of the potential for "trouble".
Mr Kauffman said they were honouring the wishes of the women shown in the film, who wanted their identities protected, and their children.
Some viewers at a recent Washington screening said they were disturbed by what they described as the self-congratulatory nature of the documentary, which they said ignored Indian charities that toiled in the tough district.
Some Indian viewers said the film was another portrayal of a complex situation in a poor country where "white" heroes were the saviours. But many others praised Ms Briski's efforts to change the children's' lives.
Ms Briski first went to Calcutta in 1997 to photograph the women - but ended up focusing on the children she befriended.
She lived in the red light area off and on for more than a year, when she filmed the children while battling Indian bureaucracy and social attitudes to get them into better schools.
Ms Briski gave them easy-to-handle cameras, discovering several budding photographers with keen eyes for unusual shots.
Avijit, an exceptionally bright boy, was soon taking photos good enough to get him invited to Amsterdam to judge a children's competition. But getting a passport for him became a monumental problem.
Puja, an impish girl, was the spark of the group while the sister and brother duo of Shanti and Manik casually talked about playing on the roof while their mother was "working in the room".
Mr Kauffman said they had raised almost $100,000 (£52,400) by selling prints of the children's photographs - 100% of which would go towards their education.
"We are very careful about the money we receive on the kids' behalf," he later said.
"We have told the kids that they have this money set aside for their education. If they choose education, they will be able to go all the way through to university."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4291331.stm
Heres another interesting article -
The following is an extract from the interpreter who worked on the documentry :
…I take issues with the often-explicit presumption by both the filmmakers and the U.S. media personalities (including the nominators at AMPAS) that the efforts by Ms. Briski and Mr. Kauffman were able to uplift the children from the poverty and destitution they live in. In fact, that presumption is not true. I visited these children a number of times during the last couple of years and found out that almost all the children are now living even a worse life than they were in before Ms. Briski began working with them…At the same time, their sex worker parents believed that with so much unrestricted access to their secretive lives they had provided to the filmmakers, and that too, so generously (were their written consent ever requested and received by the filmmakers?), there would be a way their children would also be sharing some of the glories the filmmakers are now shining in. …The conjecture drawn by the makers of Born into Brothels that it was only them that were responsible for any humanity and benevolence doled out to these children and their parents is simply absurd. (February 1, 2005)
http://www.samarmagazine.org/archive/article.php?id=190
I REST MY CASE.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
Well, actually you're resting someone elses case.
That article is hardly conclusive.
Im just proving my point using the articles as referance.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
Don't rest just yet...
1rst article:
"I visited these children a number of times over the last couple of years and found out that almost all the children are now living even a worse life than they were in before Ms Briski began working with them," he wrote.
How, exactly? It doesn't really say, does it? The last I heard, these children were given the opportunity to go to a very fine boarding school. Also, it was left up to the children themselves to decide whether or not they wanted to attend. An education is the finest jewel you can give a child. Any child, anywhere.
"The children's despair has exacerbated because they'd hoped that with active involvement in Ms Briski's camera project, there would be an opportunity for them to live a better life."
Again, giving a good education IS GIVING AN OPPORTUNITY TO LIVE A BETTER LIFE. If you disagree, please tell us all why. We are all listening. Please, tell us.
Ms Briski and Mr Kauffman plan to open an arts school in Sonagachi but have decided not to show the documentary in India because of the potential for "trouble".
If Lucifer and aerohit-1's reactions to this film are typical, they indeed have reason to worry. Ultra-Nationalists are a blind and cruel breed.
BTW, did you even read the article that you posted? It says:
Mr Kauffman said they had raised almost $100,000 (£52,400) by selling prints of the children's photographs - 100% of which would go towards their education.
"We are very careful about the money we receive on the kids' behalf," he later said.
"We have told the kids that they have this money set aside for their education. If they choose education, they will be able to go all the way through to university."
Please tell us, how is this gross exploitation?
2nd article
I visited these children a number of times during the last couple of years and found out that almost all the children are now living even a worse life than they were in before Ms. Briski began working with them
How, exactly? It doesn't really say. The quote is basically meaningless.
At the same time, their sex worker parents believed that with so much unrestricted access to their secretive lives they had provided to the filmmakers, and that too, so generously (were their written consent ever requested and received by the filmmakers?), there would be a way their children would also be sharing some of the glories the filmmakers are now shining in
What the children received is the chance to get a quality education. This is much more vital and relevant than receiving an Oscar statue, or any of the other shallow trappings of limelight.It is the greatest reward that these children could ever hope for. To claim otherwise is simply absurd.
The conjecture drawn by the makers of Born into Brothels that it was only them that were responsible for any humanity and benevolence doled out to these children and their parents is simply absurd.
And where and when is this said in the movie? Could someone come to this conclusion because these children were repeatedly turned away by fellow Indians because they were the children of prostitutes? Please don't get me wrong, I know that MANY Indian social agencies exist and are quite capable, but if these children were being taken care of, why was it that it took Ms. Briski to get them accepted into good schools? I kind of get the feeling that the articles just felt like they HAD to print some type of dissenting voice, just to spice things up. The arguements against Ms. Briski seem weak and half-hearted.
Now, don't just ignore the questions that I've raised. Please address them. We are all listening.
Om Mani Padme Hum share
Ultra nationalist me??? Are u seriously comparing me to Right Wing Bjp Bigots??
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
Now, don't just ignore the questions that I've raised. Please address them. We are all listening.
Om Mani Padme Hum
What questions have u raised??? PLease outline them.....
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
If you fear a debate then it's not a good idea to start one, you're obviously unable to answer the questions,or even provide a coherant argument.
shareSounds to me like you're not willing to address the questions raised...Maybe you should work on your critical thinking skills.
Also, the articles you have cited (you being that lucifer dude, not oggie) are outdated. After watching the movie and then researching the articles myself, I found a much more recent update about the children. It may be true that some of the children were at first doing worse than before, but the foundation has kept in close touch with the children and have helped the children even more. Like one of the articles you cited stated, the fund will pay for their education all the way through university should they chose that route. If you ask me (and I really think you should), a free education and thus a chance to get out of the brothel industry is "better off" than before. It is up to the parents and the people of their community to HELP these children pursue that option. For someone as passionate as you seem to be about the people and heritage of India, I hope that you are doing your part in helping the children of India to better themselves (not by Western ways- simply by education).
I think its interesting that none of you are addressing the main issue Me and Lucifer have with the documentry. Tell Me how often have we seen a documentry where a person from a western country <read US,Uk> comes to a devoloping country to help out the down trodden??? Quite frankly im sick of it.
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I hope that you are doing your part in helping the children of India to better themselves
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This is exactly our point, "Better the children of India".....WTF, You think children living in India live in slums or brothels or something??? I wouldnt blame you to believe that,After all thats the impression most of these kind of documentries give.
To Bhikku:
You keep calling Me and Lucifer ultra nationalists which is quite ridiculous, We are neither ultra nationalist or uber patriots but however we are very much concerned about what impression these documentries give about our country.
Lucifer has already expressed it,ill do the same. We Would not have had any problems if this documentry had being made by Indians for Indian Consumption. Take for egxample Final Solution, We had absolutely no problems with the film why?? Becuase it was made by an Indian.
Final Solution??? Awesome documentry.
Every Single Indian should see it.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
Tell Me how often have we seen a documentry where a person from a western country <read US,Uk> comes to a devoloping country to help out the down trodden???
Not a whole lot, actually. I have seen a few, but aside from Born into Brothels, I couldn't name any. Can you? Please list them. I have seen many recent documentaries/news stories on TV about Bollywood and phone service workers in India.
You keep calling Me and Lucifer ultra nationalists which is quite ridiculous
And when did I ever call you, Nemisis, an ultranationalist?
We Would not have had any problems if this documentry had being made by Indians for Indian Consumption.
Could this be seen as a tad bit nationalistic? Maybe not. It's definitely defensive. Thank you for the recommendation of Final Solution. I'll look for it.
Final Solution??? Awesome documentry.
Every Single Indian should see it.
Are people of other countries allowed to see it? Do we have your permission?
Om Mani Padme Hum share
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And when did I ever call you, Nemisis, an ultranationalist?
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So u dont call nemesis a ultra nationalist while you call me one?? Considering we are pretty much saying the same thing. That exposes your double standards. I know Nemesis in real life, so i know that his thinking is similar to mine.
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Are people of other countries allowed to see it? Do we have your permission?
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Yes your allowed to see it.I was merely saying that all indians regardless of where they live should see it, so to help expose the Right wing agenda of these Fascists aka Bjp/VHP/Rss.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
Now, don't just ignore the questions that I've raised. Please address them. We are all listening. I notice that you are sidestepping the real issues.
I know Nemesis in real life, so i know that his thinking is similar to mine.
So you are speaking for him now? Looking at the poor way that you are coming across on these boards, I'm not too sure he would appreciate this.
so to help expose the Right wing agenda of these Fascists aka Bjp/VHP/Rss.
Do you mention this because you are a bit embarrassed by your own blindly patriotic posts?
Om Mani Padme Hum share
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So you are speaking for him now
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He didnt say that, he just said that both of us have similar views on issues,Which is true.
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Looking at the poor way that you are coming across on these boards, I'm not too sure he would appreciate this.
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Actually i do.
Well, what a nice little lap dog he has found. You two deserve each other.
Om Mani Padme Hum
In following this "debate" I would have to say that an IP check would probably find that "Lucifer" and "Nemesis" are the same person. Additionally, there have been MANY further updates on the children. A majority are furthering their education, and are MUCH better off than when the documentary was filmed. These "two" (read: one) users are simply stirring the pot for no other reason than to cause trouble. What they are saying is just said to incite.
share Sorry to dissapoint you, we're roomates and Not the same person.
Drugs are not a way of life... It's the life we lead
The directors of this documentary did not decide one day "Let's make a documentary. Hmmm. What shall it be about?" I talked to Zana Briski for an hour or so last year after viewing this documentary. She is and always has been a freelance photographer. A project she started ten years ago was photographing the prostitutes in this particular red light district. The photos she could see in her creative mind were not the type that could be done tourist style. In order to be able to produce the photos she wanted, she had to gain the trust and friendship of the women, her subjects. Over a period of nine years, she periodically lived among the prostitutes with all that entailed. She got to know the children. The children were intrigued by her camera and the pictures she took. At her own expense, she began offering the children classes in photography. She is not a rich woman, monetarily speaking, but she had contacts in the world of photography. Several people helped her to fund the classes once she got started and helped arrange the showings of her pupils works. She also happened to know Mr. Kauffman and the idea was born to document her interactions with the children and all that you see in the documentary as a means of funding their escape from a heartbreaking lifestyle. She did all she could do and continues to help as much as possible. These children, and the others she worked with in those nine years, made an impact on her heart.
I asked her what her plans for the future are. She told me that she intends to go back to her first love, animal photography. It doesn't drain her soul as much. She is also trying to set up a similar program in Cairo, with children of prostitutes, but she has found someone else to run that program. She is working closely with the Ricky Martin Foundation which was one of the backers of the school the girls were enrolled in. Because the foundation was not happy with the way the school was run, they decided to build a school for disadvantaged children in Calcutta. One of her contacts is an architect who designed the school. When I talked to her that day, she was readying herself for a trip to New York and an interview on Good Morning America (it was right after she won the Oscar). She was to have travelled to India the day after the interview to be present at the groundbreaking of the new school, but she had received some threats and was unsure if it would be safe for her to return. Think what you will of Auntie Zana and her documentary. She has a shining heart.......and that is enough for me.
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She was to have travelled to India the day after the interview to be present at the groundbreaking of the new school, but she had received some threats and was unsure if it would be safe for her to return
**
Hmmm Thats Interesting................
Drugs are not a way of life... It's the life we lead
"We Would not have had any problems if this documentry had being made by Indians for Indian Consumption. Take for egxample Final Solution, We had absolutely no problems with the film why?? Becuase it was made by an Indian."
So if "Born Into Brothels" was made by an Indian it wouldn't bother you at all? It's only the fact that it was directed by a Westerner that bothers you? Huh.
I think Zana Briskie made a film about the children of Calcutta's red light district because she WANTED to, not because of any hidden agenda or because she was trying to diss India. Like other posters have stated, the film isn't about India, it's about Calcutta's red light district. She says at one point that she has lived there off and on for a number of years, not just the one year that she made the documentary. Even though she is not from India, I think the fact that she has lived for so long in that city, getting to know it's people, qualifies her for making this documentary. So what if she is a Westerner? She's not at all condescending to the people she interacts with in the film. You can tell that her affection for the children and her desire to help them is real. She isn't trying to Westernize them or make herself look like a hero. All she's trying to do is get them out of the desperate conditions they're in and into school so they can be something other than prostitutes and drug dealers when they grow up. Those children are brilliant and most of them wanted an education. Why should it matter that she is English and not Indian? What matters that that she is offering help, should they want it. Should English people only help England? Americans only help Americans? That is a very selfish worldview. India and the West may have very different cultures, but the fact remains that we are all inhabitants of the same planet and we should all try to help each other.
I still don't get why it's wrong for people to want to help other people. You refer to them as developing countries and down-trodden. Isn't that sort of a good thing to help the down-trodden? Maybe it's just the idealist in me that thinks helping those in need is okay.
I also think that bettering the children of India should be the goal of Indian people regardless of if they're poor. There's always room for improvement and growth. And again, I'm not saying all the kids in India live in slums and brothels. The ones I saw in the documentary did, so you can't tell me they're not out there. They exist. I know that not everyone in India is poor. Lots of them have Internet access and strong opinions about their country. I've met some super great people from India who seem to have been raised in a similar setting to my own. I hope no one thinks I implied that India is a poor country. My whole point is that poor people are everywhere and that it's uncool to limit the idea of helping the poor to that of "your own kind." Kids are kids, regardless of nationality.
I completely understand and appreciate the frustration you feel in having the Western world try to come in and change your culture, and the potential that this documentary has to give people the wrong impression of India as a whole. What I don't understand is the frustration in the desire of others to help those who need help. The children in that film WANTED help, and in my opinion (I'm entitled to it and all), NEEDED help.
I know Americans are seen as the people who butt in to other countries' affairs, but I think a large part of that has to do with the notion that America IS a more technologically and economically advanced country (and therefore ABLE to help/butt in). If anything, the documentary showed me how complex and beautiful the human spirit is. Never when watching it did I think, "Those Indians sure do let their country go to crap," or "Gosh I'm glad an American went in and saved those kids." I thought it was understood that it was speaking specifically of the Red Light District and not India as a whole. Every country (every city, really) has its "slum." This documentary focused on one such slum.
I would like to know what your perspective is of prostitution and child prostitution. It seems like you guys have been skirting that issue (which was the beef I had with the adults in the film).
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I would like to know what your perspective is of prostitution and child prostitution.
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Im not avoiding the issue, my feelings towards child prostitution is similar to most people ie its heinous, Goverments all over the world need to take steps to curb it.
Note: Im talking about child prostitution and NOT Prostitution in general.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
Note: Im talking about child prostitution and NOT Prostitution in general.
And how DO you feel about prostitution in general?
Om Mani Padme Hum share
How do i feel about prostitution in general??? I wish that the goverment would legalize it. It would make far more complicated things easier.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
Making child prostitution legal would make complicated things easier too....
However, you're totally entitled to your opinion on it, and that's not the issue at hand anyway. :)
You’re truly a first-class idiot. Most of the world’s population lives in poverty. There are some people amongst those who can afford to do so who choose to travel and discover the world in which we live. I’m not speaking of those who go drink on a beach in an all-inclusive resort and then claim to have visited that country. I’m speaking of those who choose to travel outside of their comfort zone and allow themselves to be touched by what they see. Clearly you are not one of these persons. This movie is not about the western world pointing a condescending finger at India; only a complete moron could see it that way. This movie is about a woman who visited the red light district and fell in love with the children she met. These children, though living in appalling conditions with little hope for the future, still managed to face the rising day with a smile. The little girls knew they would soon be forced into prostitution, and owned like objects by their pimps. As we see in the movie, if a pimp is not pleased he will not hesitate to burn the woman alive in her kitchen. Anyone arguing that this is culturally acceptable and should not be challenged, is again, clearly an idiot. The filmmaker discovered a way to momentarily free these children from their lives of squalor by teaching them photography. She gave them a way to express themselves, to feel empowered, and to realize their self-worth. Then she decided that she could take it even further and use these pictures to immensely improve these children’s chances at a better, brighter future. In the end she has changed the lives of nine young children for the better. Which brings me to an obvious question, what the hell have you accomplished in your lifetime? How many lives have you saved? Anyone who perceives a western woman giving the child of a prostitute a chance of becoming a doctor, or a lawyer, or whatever the child may dream of becoming as western interference and a criticism of Indian values and culture is, once again, clearly an idiot. Someone who actually believes that she used the nine children for self-recognition by significantly improving their chances of survival, is, you guessed it, an idiot.
shareIn relation to the above statistic mentionning the net income of 500 million dollars...
Statistics
Statistically
It was a rich island
income per capita
one million per annum
Naturally
it was a shock to hear
half the population
had been carried off
by starvation
Statistically
It was a rich island
A UN Delegation
(hurriedly dispatched)
doscovered however
a smallish island
with a total population
of-2
Both inhabitants
regrettably
not each a millionaire
as we'd presumed.
But one the island owner
Income per annum:
Two million
The other
his cook/chauffeur
shoeshine boy/butler
gardener/retainer
handyman/labourer
The very same
recently remaindered
by malnutrition
Statistically
It was a rich island
income per capita
one million per annum
--Cecil Rajendra, Other Voices, Other Places, 1972
If you have the smarts to understand this, it well means, that while half the population is starving in a certain country, as long as a few are rich and carrying their bussiness about, the economy looks good. It certainly also means, that no matter the number, people can die and starve, and be poor. Don't you EVER forget that behind the statistics are everyday people that live, breathe, and have hopes as much as you and me, and that to judge according to ones mediocre thoughts is foolish for it only brings more injustices. You cannot generalize. You cannot debate. All you can content yourself of doing, is helping. And once you have done all that you can do, then you can start complaining, but only in favor of those less fortunate than yourself.
Prostitution where children are being raised amongst it is never a good thing. Never. Poverty is never a good thing. Child prostitution is BAD. Now with that being said white people have this habit of trying to tell the world that they are the only people who can solve a problem, being they are British or American. I have had this discussions many a times. Being a African American I can assure the every one that on film the Great White Father complex is not just about them helping people of other countries The Great white Father complex is alive in kicking in American cinema too. Maybe it is really about Great White Guilt. How many movies/tv shows can I name when the the white man or women in heroic deeds while dealing with people of color. Ignoring all of the support and accomplishment of the black or latino community in that persons success. Or even worse acting like the white person is the only people who can make success in adverse situations. Let me start with
1) Radio poor retarded black man saved by white american coach.
2) Dangerous Minds Poor failing inner city minority children saved by white american women (like there is no stories to be told about the countless black and latino teachers with similar success)
3) Fighting Odds the Marilyn Gambrill story Poor children from projects saved by white american women. What no black teachers are successful in helping inner city kids
4) Hoop Dreams another documentary the plight of two black basketball players in Chicago brought to light by white american director
5) The White Shadow Inner city neighborhood high school basketball team save by white coach, No black successful coaches?
6) Running Brave White coach saves native American track runner becomes Olympic champion. Gee
7) Jim Thorpe a Native American Considered Greatest Athlete ever is only great because white man took him under his wing . Just think he never did a thing until he met Pop Warner
8) Ali Made famous by white american sports caster, Howard Cosell, forget about him being the best boxer of his time.
9) Reds White american man saves communism
10) A Time To Kill white american lawyer is the savior of black man accused of killing his child's rapist
11) Dry White Season White American journalist plight in South Africa. What no black journalist in South Africa
12) Mississippi Burning White men save the day after 3 civil right workers are murder. Gee all us black folks did was sit back and watch!
13) Hurricane Black boxer is only exonerated when white people get involved in his plight.
14) Glory White man leads black soldiers during the Civil War
The list goes on. Yes white people do help but they are not the only people who do good deeds. All of these movies make it seem that the people of color or the natives in those countries have nothing to do but wait around for a white person to come and help, They ignore the people who are not white that inspire success and that is not right. I saw a movie about the only white guy on a all black football team. Like there has never been a story about the only black person in the whole school no less the athletic team. So cheer up. You are not the only folks who have been victims of the Great White Father complex. Yes not one native Indian tied to help those children only when a white women came were things made better for them, One must see that is what the Mother Teresa implication is too. There are countless indian nuns who are doing the same thing she did. But no only one little white woman nun did all of those things all by herself. Amazing
marbleann, I respect and appreciate your post. But the thing is, it seems like these posters are trying to deny that these issues in India even exist. It would be like watching a documentary on racism in the US, and then denying that there even IS racism there. The original poster even seems to claim that it's part of his proud heritage. Again, your post is well received, I thank you for it. I'm not going to respond to you by telling you on behalf of all Americans to go *beep* yourself.
Om Mani Padme Hum
Thanks. I want to add something, bare with me please. Unfortunately I don't think these folks are in denial about prostitution in India. They know it exist. Now here is the sad part. In India there was a caste system (the brits used that term), the Hindu's called it varna, that was suppose to been made illegal but because it was in existence so long it still exist. Also in the Hindu religion being a prostitute was high honor 700 years ago on the battle field. They were called Vaishys. Later on traditionally it was a low caste girl that was made a " slave of god" a Devadasi a temple prostitute. They were Hindu temple servants that before reaching puberty devotes her life to the goddess Yallamma. So it has some religious significance. Plus here is where the child prostitution comes in.
Dowry's are still a big deal in India. If a family cannot afford a dowry, no one is going to marry the girl so consequently the poor families, people who were once part of the lowest classes when the caste system was legal have to sell their daughters into prostitution. I do not know if you know this but China and India have the highest rate of girl infanticide simply because families cannot afford a dowry. So selling females off to prostitution is not so far fetched. Because the families cannot afford them and they get money for them.
Varna's now signify professions which use to be a subclass of the Varna's. So the educated Indian, the doctor, lawyer etc.are of the high class. The prostitutes are/were of the lowest varna the untouchables. Are you aware that majority of prostitutes are still sold to the Temples which in turn bring them to the brothels. There is a established network! And the temple leader uses the ignorance of the law of the poor uneducated prostitute to take advantage of them.
Today long after the caste system has been made illegal it seems the rich remained rich and the poor remained poor. And the poor souls who still adhare to old beliefs think of prostitutes as being less then human, so therefore not part of THEIR India. So no prostitution and poverty does not exist, not in their India. Child prostitution is not frowned on because of the traditional religious meanings. The castes never intermingle ..never so as far as these folks are concerned that way of life might as well be on Mars because is not in their India. You see Varna is Hindu based so it is not something that is going away anytime soon. That is why you hear the people complaining about the movie by saying things about tradition. Code word for leave things the way they were. One last thing India has a sort of a reverse affirmative action and even with that, with India trying to meld the classes more it still has not changed one bit. I think only 2% of the lower varna have been able to even take advantage of it. Now let me add that not all of the people of India feel the way these people feel but it just takes a few to stop progress..
I wont argue with you on the issue of caste system, personally i consider religion as a concept to be absolutely ridiculous, but thats just me.
Morever considering your knowledge of Hinduism far outstrips mine it wouldnt be smart of me to indulge in a debate on it.
But however a few things -
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owry's are still a big deal in India. If a family cannot afford a dowry, no one is going to marry the girl so consequently the poor families, people who were once part of the lowest classes when the caste system was legal have to sell their daughters into prostitution.
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Dowry is a problem in India but its not as widespread as you seem to believe. Secondly selling their daughters to prostitution??? hmmm well a few instances of this might take place but i absolutely refuse to accept this takes place on a wider scale.
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Are you aware that majority of prostitutes are still sold to the Temples which in turn bring them to the brothels
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Absolutely ridiculous.
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Today long after the caste system has been made illegal it seems the rich remained rich and the poor remained poor. And the poor souls who still adhare to old beliefs think of prostitutes as being less then human, so therefore not part of THEIR India. So no prostitution and poverty does not exist, not in their India.
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Not in my India Im very much aware that prostitution takes place in "my India" but correct me if im wrong but it is practiced in every goddamned country of the world is it not??
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he castes never intermingle ..never so as far as these folks are concerned that way of life might as well be on Mars because is not in their India
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You seem to have a rather perverse view of India. "Castes never mingle"??? Oh really who told you that???? Not only do differernt castes mingle in India but inter caste marriages have become common. Not only that but Inter religious marriages are widespread and thats a very good thing.
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You see Varna is Hindu based so it is not something that is going away anytime soon. That is why you hear the people complaining about the movie by saying things about tradition. Code word for leave things the way they were
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You seem to believe that India is some kind of Hindu theocracy, When its not. India is not a Hindu country nor will you hear any Indian calling India a hindu nation.
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One last thing India has a sort of a reverse affirmative action and even with that, with India trying to meld the classes more it still has not changed one bit.
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Its called the quota system. and yes it has changed things, So much so that people are advocating the end of the system.
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I think only 2% of the lower varna have been able to even take advantage of it.
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Where are you figures taken from???
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Now let me add that not all of the people of India feel the way these people feel but it just takes a few to stop progress..
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India has progressed far more than YOU can imagine. There might be a few fascist who feel that way but there are in an insignificant minority.
To Bhikku
So your an American eh??? Just as i suspected your an ABCD. Forgive me for not taking you seriously, Everybody knows abcd's are the most condecending and confused people on earth.
After all the acronym does mean American Born Confused Desi.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
First I want to say poverty prostitution is everywhere. India does not have the market on it. So what is so hard to believe about that?
Secondly the original poster mentioned something about tradition, I can't remember his exact words. I was just saying there is basis for him stating that.
I did not just make this stuff up in my head. But telling from your attitude no matter what proof I show you one will still not believe it. I am sure if Vishnu, Mohammed or Jesus game down from the sky and presented you with proof you stil would not listen.
Stop having such a knew jerk reaction to everybody and stop being so angry. I was thnking maybe you are really a child. Only children or immature adults act as you do. Life isn't that bad, is it?
I am not a psychiatrist but I am sure there is some health professional in your county that can point to one. You see you are so out of touch with reality only person dealing with your particular malady can help. If not maybe a visit from ET can help. And do you actual believe life screws everyone? If so that explains why you are so angry, very sad indeed. Maybe life is bad for you. In the mean time I will say a novena for you.
Wow!!! What a pointless exercise that was, completely ignoring everything i said and foccusing on trying to diss at me. is that really the best you can do???
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I did not just make this stuff up in my head. But telling from your attitude no matter what proof I show you one will still not believe it. I am sure if Vishnu, Mohammed or Jesus game down from the sky and presented you with proof you stil would not listen.
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Newsflash: Jesus,Vishnu or mohammed doesnt exist.
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. Life isn't that bad, is it?
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On the Contrary Life is AWESOME!!!
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I was thnking maybe you are really a child. Only children or immature adults act as you do
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According to you is a 19 year old student a child??Because thats me.
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You see you are so out of touch with reality
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Actually its you whose out of touch with reality. Stop believing everything you hear and get out into the real world, why dont you???
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And do you actual believe life screws everyone? If so that explains why you are so angry, very sad indeed. Maybe life is bad for you
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You know whats sad??? You dissing at my sign out message.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
According to you is a 19 year old student a child??Because thats me.
--no surprises there--
Wow, I was about to respond to this argument, but the fact that you stated:
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To Bhikku
So your an American eh??? Just as i suspected your an ABCD. Forgive me for not taking you seriously, Everybody knows abcd's are the most condecending and confused people on earth.
After all the acronym does mean American Born Confused Desi.
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makes me disregard all of your arguements combined. You seem to have this intense hatred for Americans, which makes me wonder if someone who seems to be so biased and hateful should be starting any debates at all. You already called someone a Jackass, and labeled someone as a "I think your just a internet nerd who created a new account to post here." I find this extremely sad.
About the film. I was adopted from Korea, and could relate to these children. While I may not be from India, my mother was a prostitute, and I'm really happy that someone helped me out of my situation. I would have been shunned by the comunity and not have any opportunites and work a better paying job that would respect my self-worth. I keep on thinking how lucky I am that I'm typing on a computer, and not selling myself on the streets.
As an aspiring film director, I'm happy that this documentary was made. There are a lot of movies that might help people open their eyes, and I hope the movie I make someday carries those attributes.
"If we were all a bunch of weiner dogs our problems would be solved!" - The Brave Little Toaster
If they wished to make a documentry about children living in poverty why not make one about american street children??? Why come to India?? I seem to remember a documentry called Streetwise which focused on the lives of American teenagers living in Poverty in Seattle.
Well I can think of a few documentry's about poor american people
American Hollow about poor appalachian people
A Boys Life
Harlen County USA
So your an American eh??? Just as i suspected your an ABCD. Forgive me for not taking you seriously, Everybody knows abcd's are the most condecending and confused people on earth.
After all the acronym does mean American Born Confused Desi.
-sigh-name calling. As I said earlier, what a childish thing to do.
So you openly dismiss anything an American/westener has to say? If a westerner makes a movie about empowering Indian children and gives them a chance to receive an education, you dismiss it all because she's a westerner? How blind and bigoted can you be? You openly have prejudices against all Americans; one shudders to think of the other prejudices you must also harbor.
Om Mani Padme Hum share
I have prejudices against ABCD's. I shudder to think how confused you might be about your identity.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
I am not going to pay attention to him. I said what I am going to say to him. Acutually I was in shock because I even though I cannot agree with child prostition I could see where some hard liners could say it was part of a tradition because of its religous basis. Just like aparthied was justified because people said it was in the bible. And I can see how people feel that americans always like to show the bad things to elevate our image. I do know of some people that have gone to India. There is a big tourist industry there so of course it is a beautiful place. But most americans do not go to India simply because it is very expensive. I called HP one day because my notebok was acting up and it turns out the support is actually in India. I was talking to the tech over the phone and she was inquisitive about NYC and I mentioned how I would like to go to India too. She was in shock to hear that the price of going to India was so expensive that made it prohibited for the average person. Apparently there is image problems both ways because she was under the impression that me as a American and also being a New Yorker we could afford everything. NOT!
Our image of India is what we see in the media. So I can understand the frustration of the people because we mostly do see negative images. I live in NY, the media capital of the world and the only thing I hear about India is something about Bollywood, some news program about the exploitation of Indian woman by big american companies or the occasional natural disaster or train wreck in which scores of people are killed. All the movies we see is usually from a British POV or something from the woman who made Mississippi Masala or some old Sabu movie and worse of all movies like the Rains Came with people like Tyrone Power and Richard Burton playing Indian men willing to abandon everything for a married white woman with bad a reputaton! But I must add one of the best movies I ever saw was a movie called THe River and it was about a British family living in India. A beautiful movie. But I can understand the anger. So I was shoocked with his attack because it was obvious he was not reading anything I wrote and was attacking me because he assumed I am a American.
Now how can anyone say there is not a problem with prostitution or poverty in India in beyond me. There is a big problem in Nepal because of the girls are being sold off and sent to India to be prostitutes. Ignoring a problem makes you part of the problem. You see it is not just Prostitution but it is also about Aids. How can people not see that?
So I was shoocked with his attack because it was obvious he was not reading anything I wrote and was attacking me because he assumed I am a American.
Indeed, your original post represented the only well thought out support this Lucifer person had on this board. He seems to have rejected your support because you're American. One can only wonder if the fact that you're African American also had something to do with it.
Ultra Nationalists are a blind and cruel breed.
Om Mani Padme Hum share
I would not be surprised because he doesn't sound rational. You know there is enough hate going around. So to reject a person you don't even know is very sad. Like I said I'll say a novena for him. Poor guy.
shareI think he seems quite rational; even intelligent. I feel he just got backed against a wall while trying to defend India. He does have a legitimate concern with not wanting the world to have a false, negative view of his country. I can't, and don't, blame him for that. But I do feel he is wrong when it comes to the film Born into Brothels, for reasons I've already stated, many times.
Om Mani Padme Hum
As you know I was agreeing with him about the negative images that we are bombarded with. I think it is very frustrating because as Americans or Canadians we seldom can travel to India to get a opposing view of things. He just seemed irrational because I was agreeing with him about that and I never really oppossed what he was stating with exception of the poverty and prostitution problem which in my opinion is a problem in in this country too.
share To Marbleann:
Attacking you??? WTF..... The only reason i "attacked you" is because you ignored the points i made and started to attack me. Please read my first post directed towards you again.
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So I was shoocked with his attack because it was obvious he was not reading anything I wrote and was attacking me because he assumed I am a American.
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I did not attack you because you were american, your retarded if you believe that.
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ow how can anyone say there is not a problem with prostitution or poverty in India in beyond me.
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Please refer to a post or a sentance where i refused to aknowledge the problem of prostitution in India.
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would not be surprised because he doesn't sound rational. You know there is enough hate going around. So to reject a person you don't even know is very sad. Like I said I'll say a novena for him. Poor guy.
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Hate??? If your so overtly sensitive that you consider a debate on a movie to be "Hate Speech", you really shouldnt be posting on Imdb.
ANd thank you for calling me irrational by the way.
To Bhikku : <What kind of id is Bhikku anyway???>
Are you calling me racist??? Not only are you confused , your incompetant <NAMECALLING!!!!!!> as well, Congratulations.
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Well, what a nice little lap dog he has found. You two deserve each other.
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I would respond to this if it werent really really lame.
The only problem i had with this film <as ive already stated above> is with the filmakers questionable intentions.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone
Lucifer_nib_666 you need to get a reality check and stop watching bollywood films, i was born in kolkata and this film is in no way false ... india is not as perfect as you want to believe, come on yaar.
share
I dont watch bollywood films, they suck. If you had seen my profile you would have realised that.
Nobody Dies a Virgin, Life screws Everyone