I saw this movie recently and have been combing the net for more information about the real patrol. In the process, I came across this interesting review of the film by a Tibetan exile filmmaker that seems pretty spot on. Still I think this is an extraordinary, if flawed film.
http://www.tibetwrites.org/reviews/kekexili.html
I also recommend the production diary on the film's official website to learn about the extreme hardships in getting this story on film.
Thank you, Doug-474, for the website address. The review by the exiled
Tibetan filmmaker is excellent. In spite of the transcendental beauty of this film, I am unimpressed by this film. I strongly feel that the director is simply kow-towing to the authorities and treating Tibetans like a bunch of
barbarians (or noble savages). The ultimate intention of Chinese government and people is clear from this film. Just like the European immigrants who decimated native Americans with the justification of manifest destiny, Han Chinese with their convenient justification of Sino-centrism are planning to destroy Tibetan people and culture.
I am amazed by the hypocrisy of Chinese. They are still outraged about the Japanese invasion of China which occurred in the late 19th century and the first half of the 20th century. However, they think it is justified for China to invade and occupy Tibet. Double standard!!
Very sincerely yours,
Rey Alvarez
I already know that if any chinese movies touch the topic of tibet. Some narrow-mineded people could not help politicizing the movie. Any film touches Tibet must show something against the Chinese government. If they can not find, it must be a kow-tow film. I do not think the director has this kind of mindset in the first place. There are many chinese movies with similar theme, but set in a Han Chinese background. This movie is based on a true story that happened in Tibetan area, so it is naturally that many settings are Tibaten, why particularly politicing this one but not others?
I am also amazed that Rey is amazed by the hypocrisy of Chinese, who are much more peaceful than the westen people. Think how many countries all around the world have the westen countries invaded and how many people the west have killed in the history. The chinese ships reached africa long before of Columbus but never set up colonies there even though at that time China is more advanced than the Europe. When the Europeans discovered America, Austrailia, etc, they practically killed all the local poeple and robbed every piece of land.
I can trace back that my hometown, 2000 years ago, was also a separate kingdom, called "Kingdom of Yue". Why don't you complain to the Chinese government that China occupied "my country"? Show me your single solid standard for everything.
Thank you, Comrade Wuyuan, for your response. “Mountain Patrol” is a disgusting propaganda movie. While ignoring the criminal occupation of Tibet by China, the movie is trying to pound into our head “Chinese are moral!” and “Chinese are highly ethical!” I am sure that there are millions of good Chinese, but how can we ignore the crime China is presently committing against Tibet and its people? Our dear Comrade Wuyuan wants us to ignore an inconvenient fact—criminal occupation of Tibet by China—and comment about the cinematic beauty of this movie.
According to our dear comrade, criticizing a propaganda movie like “Mountain Patrol” for its disgusting Sino-centrism is somehow narrow-minded and unnecessarily politicizing. Therefore, criticizing disgusting anti-Semitic movies like “The Eternal Jew” for its racism and Nazi propaganda should also be labeled as “narrow-minded” and “unnecessarily politicizing.” I will take our dear Comrade Wuyuan’s advice and not criticize Adolf Hitler for his racism and Nazism. I shall criticize Hitler solely for his weird moustache and bad hairstyle. Now, Comrade Wuyuan should be satisfied!
I do not know how nonsensical Comrade Wuyuan can be. Our dear comrade wants me to complain to the Chinese government about what happened two millenia ago and ignore the human right abuses of Tibetans by Chinese authorities which are occurring right now. Except for historical interest who cares about what happened to this Kingdom of Yue two thousand years ago? Why don’t we concentrate on the crimes China is committing right now and try to save Tibetans from China’s war crimes? Tibetans are being victimized by China right now!!
But everyone, we have to keep Chinese patriots like our dear Comrade Wuyuan content. We have to ignore the criminal occupation of Tibet by China and its people. Comrade Wuyuan, what do you want us to do? Support Chinese invasion and occupation of Tibet? What do you want the people of Tibet to do? Thank China for its criminal invasion and occupation of Tibet and massacre of numerous Tibetans? Should we concentrate on some meaningless criticisms of Chinese government for what Chinese did to this Kingdom of Yue two thousand years ago?
Chinese patriots like our dear Comrade Wuyuan think it is OK for Chinese to massacre Tibetans. Uh-oh!! If I start criticizing China for anything, Comrade Wuyuan will accuse me of being narrow-minded and unnecessary political. Yes, yes, Chinese people and its army whose hands are soaked in Tibetan blood can do no wrong. Isn’t that right, dear Comrade Wuyuan?
I am amazed that Comrade Wuyuan was amazed with my amazement with Chinese hypocrisy. How do some of these jingoistic Chinese expect Japanese to apologize to them for the war crimes Japanese armed forces have committed against Chinese during World War II when Chinese People's so-called Liberation Army is still committing war crimes against Tibetan people. Chinese war criminals do not apologize to anybody for their war crimes committed in Tibet. These war criminals are touted as people's heroes and given medals of honor.
How can these Chinese jingoists point their fingers at Japanese war criminals?
Why don't the Chinese people apologize to Tibetans before expecting Japanese to apologize to them? According to Webster's dictionary, this is called hypocrisy.
Hi, Ray, you look quite upset by us Chinese. I would like to share my views in a more reasoned way. But I am amazed that you have made so much assumption about me. How did you know that if you ignore Tibet will make me happy??? When did I say it is ok to kill tibetans???
If we are talking solely about this movie, I do not think this movie itself has any political movitation. It is a story that could happen in any place of the world. One can easily change the setting outside tibet as porching is happening in many parts of the world, what are you going to do and who are you going to critisize? This movie even received foreign funding for the making of this movie. You mean that foreigners fund Chinese to make propaganda movie? Then you should also complain to the ones who funded the movie. Regardless of whatever tibet issues outthere, any movies touches tibet can not reflect common problems of mankind? and must reflect the issues that you want the movie to have? If it is really a propoganda movie, I will definitely say it is a propoganda movie. I have seen many propoganda movies in this life. But I can not find a clue in this one. If the Chinese want to make a propoganda movie, you think they will make one like Kekexili, where it portains a serious porching problem under their government. A propoganda movie will make everything rosy. That's why I think you are narrow-mineded. If you want to critisize China government for whatever tibet issues, I am sure you can find other (probably better) excuses. If you have no other choice but have to use such a movie as a reason to critisize china, then I would think the government is doing quite well already and I will also place some sympathy on you.
I do not consider myself a narrow-minded patriot. Anything can be open for debate. I am not saying the Chinese are the best people in the world. But by looking at the history, Chinese are doing no worse than the West. If you talk about all the wars and invation (invading and being invaded) between neighbouring countries, I do not think the West is a more peaceful land. I do not know which country you are originated, but dare you say that your country has never invaded or been invaded by your neighbouring countries?
In the history, borders keep changing, ethnic groups do not a clear lines. Even within ethinic Han Chinese people, it is very diverse, a Han Chinese in west areas could be generically, ethnically and culturally closer to the tibetans that he is to the Han Chinese in the east. Grouping them in ethnical groups does not actually make them clearcut two people.
The logic that the Chinese are not the Chinese of Beijing, all the people in China (including tibet) has certain participation this country (may not be democratic by your standard). It is like you can not say you are governed by Americans because you also contribute to the governing of the country. Chinese from other parts can be officials in Tibet, tibetans become the officials in other parts of China. In fact, my hometown's mayor is a ethnic mongolian and I have no problem with that, in the end we all become one. In the earlier years, Mao Zhedong started an independence movement of his hometown, but in the end, he become the Chairman of the nation.
Regarding the crimes you mentioned, tibet is no difference from other parts of China. People in tibet joined the cultural revolution just as people from my hometown joined it. It is not by people from Beijing, it is by all the people in China (including tibet). If you are against it, you must be against it as a whole with single standard. Communism does not go from Beijing to Tibet, it comes to Tibet as it comes other parts of China in early last century. The old landlord tibet system was toppled as the old landlord systems in other parts of China.
It is naive to think that it is only the chinese did things to tibetans. The "crimes" you mentioned are committed by the chinese to chinese, chinese to tibetan, tibetans to Chinese and tibetans to tibetans. How do you separate these? You think there are no tibetans in the liberation Army?
I love my country including tibet, but I have no problem accepting critics for my country as long as they are not biased. Make sure you have just one standard before you judge if we are double standard. If you are against the China government, you should critisize the government for all the bad things its officials including officials from tibet have done to all China including tibet.
Nonsense! I have the greatest respect for Chinese people. Chinese people
have made tremendous contributions to the world since ancient times. In the past Chinese have expanded its influence through its superior culture and generosity. Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, and many other races owe tremendously to Chinese culture and generosity of Chinese people. I
only despise the racist Sino-centric attitude of some Chinese. Our comrade
Wuyuan's attitude is a prime example of Sino-centrism I greatly despise.
Unlike Chinese of yesteryear, modern Chinese are acting like bunch of thiefs.
China unlawfully invaded Tibet and illegally occupies it now. Comrade
Wuyuan has the temerity to write that Tibet is now part of China!! Shouldn't China then invade Korea and Japan and start calling Koreans and Japanese "Chinese?" Patriotic Chinese like our Comrade Wuyuan would love to see Korea and Japan to be part of China.
Comrade Wuyuan is trying really hard to distinguish between the Chinese government and its people. The crimes committed by Chinese army in Tibet are possible only because "patriots" like Comrade Wuyuan passionately support the crimes against Tibetans.
Comrade Wuyuan once again writes nonsense. Just because Chinese commit crimes against other Chinese, he thinks it is OK for Chinese to massacre Tibetans. Japanese do commit crimes against other Japanese. According to our esteemed comrade, it must therefore be OK for Japanese to massacre Chinese. May I teach you a lesson, Comrade Wuyuan. Crimes committed by Chinese against Chinese, Chinese against Tibetans, Japanese against Japanese, and Japanese against Chinese are all wrong. It does not matter who is the victim. It does not matter who is the criminal. I don't understand the logic of having to make a distinction between crimes committed by Chinese against other Chinese and Chinese against Tibetans. Why do we have to make such an unnecessary and artificial distinction?
Why don't Chinese "patriots" like our Comrade Wuyuan admit the crimes committed
by Chinese against Tibetans and respect the self-determination of Tibetan people? It scares me that Chinese never learned the lessons of compassion and humility toward others when Japanese violated their rights with unlawful invasion and horrendous massacres. China unfortunately became the best student of the Imperial Japanese Army. In Tibet it is now successfully implementing the genocidal policies it learned from the Japanese.
Rey, I really sympathize you for you agony. But it looks I have no way of saving you. You should go back to school to study China 101 to have a bit more basic knowledge. And please do NOT make any more stupid assumptions about me. Make remarks only based on the words that I have said, OK?
Did you answer my questions in my previous reply? The questions are:
How did you know that if you ignore Tibet will make me happy??? When did I say it is ok to kill tibetans???
A few notes about your post
1) You are saying you respect China yesteryear but not China today. Why? In your opinion, China yesteryear never invaded any other countries while China today do?
2) I was saying that the "crimes" you were saying were committed by other Chinese against other Chinese, other Chinese against tibetans, tibetans against tibetans, tibetans against other chinese. Read my post more carefully.
3) I never deny any crimes committed by the government (or chinese , whatever you want to say), but that government (or the group of people that committed the "crimes", whatever you want to say) is formed by people from all parts of China inlcuding Tibet, you think there is no tibetans in the government or in the red army during the communisim revolution? There is no tibetan red guards in the cultural revolution. Do not make me laugh if you think there is no such cases. The thing I do not agree is that you think it is by other Chinese to Tibetans one-directionally. You think there are no tibetans involved in the "crimes" against all the Chinese? As I stated, if you want to complain, you should complain also against the crimes committed by the Chinese including tibetans to all the people in China including people in Tibet.
4) quote "Just because Chinese commit crimes against other Chinese, he thinks it is OK for Chinese to massacre Tibetans", OMG, when did I say it is OK for Chinese to massacre tibetans??? Please point out when did I say that. If you can not point out when I said that, I will have no choice but to dispise you.
5) quote "It does not matter who is the criminal. I don't understand the logic of having to make a distinction between crimes committed by Chinese against other Chinese and Chinese against Tibetans. Why do we have to make such an unnecessary and artificial distinction?". That is exactly what I was saying, There are poeple from all the group of people that become "criminals" and "victims". It is you that only complain about the non-tibetan Chinese against tibetans and never tried to see other part of the picture: tibetans against non-tibetan chinese, tibetans against tibetans, non-tibetan chinese against non-tibetan chinese. Don't tell me you want to deny the crimes committed by tibetans against non-tibetan chinese. If you want to complain, get a principle and complain about anything that is against the principle.
6) The thing is that a Han chinese and a tibetan are always not on the same level when some narrow-minded people see them. When a Han chinese kills a tibetan, they can say it is a genocide, when a tibetan kills a Han, it is simply a murder. In fact, what is the difference between these two?
7) I fully respect tibetans self-determination. But how? Independence? then other ethnic groups (including Han Chinese) that historically lived in Tibetan area for thousands of years also be independent from Tibet? How do you draw the boarders and where the whole process ends? Plus, you have any idea what kind of life tibetans had under the dalai lama with average life expectancy less than 30 years old (please check out from other sources to verify the figure). The railway is built, I would see tibetans' full participation in the country, let's peacefully live in this country and make it better for all. Tibet will benifit from the rest of China and the rest of China will benifit from Tibet,
Please pull yourself out of this agony, which could be even triggered by such a movie. It is also very tiring debating with you as you never read posts carefully, make all the assumptions and very irrational in your logic. Please improve on those aspects before we could continue on this debate.
I have to apologize to my dear Comrade Wuyuan for taking my time
in sending him my invectives. I have been very busy lately. He must
have missed to go toe to toe with me.
One IMDb commentator stated that "politics can be found wherever
one chooses to see." That is true but the movie "Mountain Patrol"
is blatantly politcal in what the director and screenwriters chose
to depict and not to depict.
The movie in question is a propaganda nonsense. It reminds me of a
Nazi propaganda movies which depict Nazi law enforcement officials as
reasonable and moral individuals and Jews as bunch of debauched criminals.
Because there were hundreds of thousands of Nazi law enforcement
officials and millions of Jews, there must have been some ethical Nazi
officials and some debauched and criminal Jews. However, just because
there were some ethical Nazi officials and some criminal Jews, it does
not mean that we can generalize that the entire Nazi regime was highly
ethical and that the entire Jewish population was a bunch of criminals.
The movie "Mountain Patrol" uses similar illogical generalization as
a propaganda tool. I am sure that there were some ethical and just members
of Chinese government. By depicting an ethical Chinese government
journalist--almost all journalists in China are government employees--the
director wants us to believe that the entire Chinese government, which
is occupying Tibet, is somehow ethical and just. (This is what our dear
comrade Wuyuan wants us to believe also.)
A recent incident in Tibet shows us the real face of these "moral"
Chinese authority. Several weeks ago, a Chinese border patrol, similar
to the movie's esteemed mountain patrol, shot and killed several unarmed
Tibetan refugees who were trying to escape to Nepal from Chinese oppression
in Tibet. Unlike the movie, these Chinese patrol was not shooting at armed
criminals but at unarmed citizens, some of them women, children and nuns.
In fact, at least one nun was killed by the Chinese patrol. The Chinese
patrol fired at these helpless Tibetans from a distance of several hundred
meters using sniper rifles. (This entire incident was filmed by several
Romanians.) It was no different from animal hunts. This is the reality
of the so-called mountain patrol. Rather than ethically helping the Tibetan
people and its environment, these mountain patrols go around cold-bloodedly
murdering helpless Tibetan nuns and children and enforce the Chinese genocidal
policy. (Comrade Wuyuan must be jumping up and down in joy when he heard that
Chinese soldiers have killed Tibetan nuns. He must be one of those jingoists
who thinks that Chinese government can do no wrong and that Tibetan nuns are
criminal counterrevolutionaries.)
Now that I used the word "genocide," may I clear something about genocide.
Comrade Wuyuan naively and foolishly asked the question "When a Tibetan
kills Chinese, it is just a murder. But when Chinese kill Tibetans, why is
it a genocide?" Genocide is a massive killing of some ethnic, racial and/or
religious group. Are Chinese massively killing Tibetans? Yes, yes, yes.
Chinese army has invaded Tibet and is currently occupying the entire Tibetan
territory and oppressing the people. Chinese air force has bombed monasteries
killing numerous unarmed nuns and monks. Chinese authorities have taken land from
Tibetans and caused mass starvation of the Tibetan people. If this is not a
genocide, what is it? Maybe Comrade Wuyuan, who wants to be fussy about
terminology, wants me to use the word "ethnic cleansing." Then, are Tibetans
massively killing Chinese? No. I do not see Dalai Lama's army occupying
Beijing or Shanghai and massively starving the Chinese population. I do not
see Dalai Lama's air force bombing Beijing. (When ignorance, nonsense and illogic reaches to the level of our dear Comrade Wuyuan, it is almost exquisite!!)
Our dear comrade conceded that killings of Tibetans are wrong. Thank you. That is what your countrymen and your soldiers are doing right now in Tibet. Comrade Wuyuan has all the time to argue with me and justifying the crimes and massacres committed by Chinese Army against Tibetans. However, he doesn't have even one second to criticize his own government and people for the crimes they committed against Tibetans. Oh, I am sorry. I forgot. Comrade Wuyuan is really an agent of Chinese Public Security Bureau!
Our dear comrade alludes that he loves Tibetan people. He has the temerity to label Tibetans as Chinese and he claims that he loves them. How impudent! If I use our dear comrade as an example, theft must be justified as long as Chinese steal from foreigners. When Chinese steal Tibetan land, the land becomes Chinese according to our dear comrade. Comrade Wuyuan, why don't you become a school teacher and teach Chinese children that it is OK to steal as long as the victim is a foreigner. That is what your beloved government and army are doing to Tibetans.
When our dear comrade calls Tibetans Chinese, Tibetans must be livid with anger. Tibetans must feel that Comrade Wuyuan has denied their national identity.
Our dear comrade also goes on and on about the nonsense about Tibetans being a part of the Cultural Revolution. I say: "So what!" Even if some Tibetans did participate in Cultural Revolution, Chinese occupation and raping of Tibet are wrong, wrong, wrong! What does this nonsense about Tibetan participation in Cultural Revolution has to do with the immorality of Chinese invasion and occupation of Tibet?
In conclusion, Chinese jingoists like Comrade Wuyuan love Tibetans as long as they meekly kowtow to Chinese authorities and happily smile while being kicked by Chinese soldiers. Chinese jingoists like Comrade Wuyuan are indeed the best students of genocidal Imperial Japanese Army. Late Emperor Hirohito and General Tojo are giving thumbs up to you, dear Comrade Wuyuan!
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wuyuan is right. This film was not political. It avoided political ponderings, and thus, to you, that means it is propaganda. Seems kind of dishonest to me. If it had been pro-Chinese you'd have screamed to the heavens that it was propaganda, and it would be. It is neutral, and you still claim it as propaganda (which is kind of an impossible idea, who is this apolitical propaganda in service of?). But if it were unabashedly pro-GIE (government in exile) you'd claim it was the most evenhanded and honest movie you'd ever seen.
Wuyuan is right. If a movie that focuses on Tibet does not touch politics, or does not agree with your politics, then you cry foul. If there are no politics then you look for them anywhere you can. If you still cannot find them you cry foul that it didnt mention the Chinese torture and invasion.
Even the Tibetan critic said "It is set in a Tibet that is curiously apolitical." Meaning NOT political. The director HAD to be apolitical to even have the movie made.
Heaven forbid a movie should just BE, and not try to push a political agenda for once.
Bealsj must be thinking that he or she can dictate to others how they can
critique a movie. Just because he or she thinks a movie is apolitcal, Bealsj
thinks that everybody else has to critique "Mountain Patrol" as if it is a
totally apolitical movie. Maybe Bealsj does not know this but it is up to the
individual critic to decide whether a given movie is political or not. If
somebody chooses to write about the political motivation behind a movie, he or
she is free to do so.
In a free society a person like Bealsj can write freely. However, Bealsj
thinks that others have to follow his sacred guideline. I should remind
Bealsj that others are equally free to express their opinion in the way they
choose, not the way you dictate to them. If you didn't know, you are not a
dictator.
Maybe Bealsj does not know this but the real reason behind the Chinese
government's permission to release this movie was to hide its environmental
crimes. Xinhua News Agency was forced to admit in the late 1990's that
Chinese government was shipping tons of dangerous nuclear wastes from China to
Tibetan mountains. Xinhua claimed that the nuclear wastes would be stored
in "secure" locations. However, many of these "secure" locations in some
countries are not really secure. Nuclear wastes have leaked into underground
water and rivers from some of these "secure" locations. While dumping nuclear
wastes in Tibet, Chinese government have allowed the release of this
environmentally friendly movie "Mountain Patrol" to make the world think that
it is also environmentally friendly. What a two-faced snake!
Heaven forbid! I wrote something anti-Chinese. Bealsj will accuse me of
being a pro-Tibetan fanatic.
People can read my screen name on their own, I hardly think they need you to repeat it for them 8 times in one post.
Beyond that, I'm not dictating to you how to do anything. I'm merely showing how a political viewing of this movie makes NO sense at all.
"Chinese government have allowed the release of this
environmentally friendly movie "Mountain Patrol" to make the world think that
it is also environmentally friendly."
Right, I'm sure that was their motive, because they really give a rats bottom what everyone thinks about the subject. Please.
Bealsj, it is none of your business to tell me how I am going to comment about
a movie. If I find a political motivation behind a movie, it is up to me to
comment about that. I am not in China, a dictatorial authoritarian state. I
happen to live in the US, a free society, if you did not know. This is called
freedom of speech if you do not know, Bealsj. Oh, I forgot! Bealsj thinks
that we have to say and think exactly what he says and thinks. I am so sorry
for not being your pet parakeet which repeats your every word.
I am amazed by Bealsj's restriction of my comment to purely cinematographic
matters. So, if I want to comment about Nazi-era movies like "Triump of the
Wills" and "Eternal Jew," I cannot talk about the evil of Nazism. According to
Bealsj, I can only comment about things like camera angle and lighting.
By imposing such a nonsensical restriction, you are playing into the hands of
Chinese Communist security officials, Bealsj. They don't want anybody to say
anything negative about Chinese occupation of Tibet. If we stay silent, the
status quo (i.e. the illegal occupation of Tibet) will continue.
I am disgusted with people like Bealsj. This person reminds me of Hanoi Jane
Fonda and other leftist sympathizers (the so-called fellow travelers) who
went to North Vietnam in the 60's and 70's to unwittingly become a part of the
Communist propaganda machine. I still remember the disgust I felt when I saw
Hanoi Jane joyfully play with the North Vietnamese anti-aircraft battery, which
was intended to kill her fellow Americans. These people, who could have been
sincere in their belief, ended up greatly helping the cause of authoritarian
Communist governments. Chinese Communist Party should make you into a People's
Hero, Bealsj. You are now in the same league as Hanoi Jane Fonda. Maybe you
can now call yourself "Beijing Bealsj" or whatever your real name is. Congratulations!!
By the way, you are telling me that this movie is "apolitcal"? Are you trying
to be a comedian, Bealsj? This movie portrays Chinese--personified by the
Beijing journalist protagonist--as protectors of Tibetan people and the
environment. Reality in Tibet is just the opposite. As another IMDb comment
stated, Chinese dump large amount of nuclear wastes in Tibet. Chinese army
massacred countless Tibetans. Chinese government and its supporters are
trying to destroy Tibetan culture by suppressing Buddhism, an integral part of
the Tibetan psyche. Chinese are making Tibetans into aliens in their own
land. In spite of all these overwhelming facts, this movie tries desperately
to portray Chinese as protectors of Tibetan people and land. If this is not a
political propaganda, what do you call it? Bealsj, are you so blinded by the
exquisite cinematography of this movie that you were conned by the subtle
propaganda of this movie?
If you want a non-political comment about this movie, I will give you one,
Bealsj. I am scared of the subtle Sino-centric racism of this movie. In the
18th, 19th and even 20th century many white Americans looked at native
Americans as if the latter were some curious wild animals. This movie treats
the Tibetans in a similar way. The movie portrays Tibetans as if they are some
alien humanoid species which is totally different from Chinese (i.e. the
civilized humans) and should be studied at a zoo. I am not alone in stating
this. Tibetan movie maker, Tenzin Sonam, stated a similar point in a recent
essay. An IMDb commentator, Bara Test, alluded to this point also.
For at least 2000 years some Chinese believed in Sino-centrism, a rabidly
racist belief which states that China is the center of the world, only Chinese
are real human beings, and all races surrounding China (e.g. Koreans, Japanese,
Vietnamese, Tibetans, Mongols, etc.) are bunch of subhuman monsters. Some
Chinese—including the screenwriters of this movie—must still believe in Sino-
centrism. No wonder the movie portrays Tibetans as if they are a bunch of wild
subhuman curiosities.
Even though it is clear from my comments that my sympathy is with the oppressed
(Tibetans) and my anger is targeted against the oppressor (Chinese government),
I am not a part of any pro-Tibetan group. I don't have any hatred
toward Chinese people even though I am angered by the present Chinese
government and its crimes against Tibetans. I am just an average person who
hates racism and oppression. Unlike Bealsj, I saw a subtle but disgusting
political propaganda and racism craftily hidden in this exquisitely
photographed movie.
Wow, are you and joycediazcastro the same person? Because you both like to use my name an awful lot, and have just basically parroted the same comments back almost verbatim.
Congratulations on making a longwinded rabid foaming post that completely proves everything that my original comment had said. I couldn't have asked for a better response.
Hi, reyalvarez, you are still suffering from the agony of your logic-less imagination? It is my fault not to come to give you some relief.
I have been travelling recently, and therefore got not much time for posting. I guess I will not have much time for taking care of you in the future as well because of my job and family duties. But I can garantee you that we Chinese (including Tibetans in Tibet area) will continue to work towards improving our lives. And you, my friend, will have to live out the rest of your life painfully seeing this happen.
Ciao. and you do not need to reply to this.
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reyalvarez aka biggest hypocrit
why are you living in america and calling it your country if it belongs to the tribes? Just because people of your race killed most of them dont make "america" yours.
Hi reyalvarez
Hope you're still reading this forum. First up to be honest with you I am a person of Chinese descent although I grew up in Australia.
I would like to start off by saying I think you may have made some valid points about Chinese occupation of Tibet and how it is illegal/immoral/terrible. But I would also like to say that I don't know much about it. Also I am sure Wuyan, as a normal Chinese citizen, does not know much about it. To be honest, the attitude among normal Chinese people are exactly as Wuyuan has stated: they are interested in Tibetan culture and find it very interesting. They really do think of Tibetans as another tribe inside China. Perhaps from your Western standpoint, this may patronizing and naive - if indeed the atrocities which you state are happening, and they may be.
But Chinese people in China, and overseas as well, do not have the kind of inhumane attitude towards Tibetans as you angrily stated. You have made a separation between the Chinese of ancient days (good) and the Chinese of modern day (super bad, man). I don't like the way you are comparing the Chinese occupation of Tibet with the Japanese invasion of China. Please concentrate on the issue and state the facts (the ones you have made are very powerful). The Japanese invasion of China is an extremely sensitive issue to Chinese people and comparing the average Chinese citizen who has little idea of what is going to Tibet (aside from the beautiful tv dramas and performances which are shown regularly on Chinese TV) to a Japanese General responsible for murdering many Chinese people is highly exaggerated. The average Chinese person certainly doesn't believe in killing Tibetans!
Perhaps ignorance is a form of evil. Perhaps China is an enclosed society. I think the situation with the Government is much more complicated, and though I am not stating this as an excuse; please don't blame normal Chinese people, most of whom were very touched by this film. I remember my mother crying as she watched it. All films have a context and are written from the director's own assumptions/values. Perhaps this may be seen as propaganda to you, but then what isn't?
Finally Wuyan, I just want to state that the aboriginals in Australia have not been killed off! They're still around, and they're very strong people. There's much more that could be done to make up for wrongs committed, but that's a whole other issue.
On a last note, questions of invasion/occupation/races are very complex in all countries. One side may be obviously more wrong than the other, but please let's not turn this discussion forum for this film into a huge insult session which is not helping anyone!
You are talking about continuously Chinese hypocrisy.
HHAHAHAH, man , you got it.
Then shall we talk about Western nations, people and government hypocrisy??
How about IRAQI?
Even Chinese are really hypocritical, it is non of your business.
You hate Chinese and China, then come to China to destroy it ???? Dare you ??
HAHAHHAHA,coward.
interesting to read someone brought up under a different form of indoctrination that we Americans. Sure, the Chinese are no worse than Americans or others, we have all, as nations and as peoples committed crimes in the course of time. That said, while I never expect a patriotic Chinese to acknowlege Tibetan independence, or even a Tibetan desire for independence or at least autonomy, its clear to much of the world that Tibet is or was an independent state with its own culture, and no amount of complaining about the faults of others can actually change that...its an argument without end, I do not expect most Chinese to admit or acknowlege any of this...sad really, the crimes committed for example in my country, the USA, against Native Americans in the past do NOT somehow excuse Chinese crimes TODAY against the Tibetan people...I say this as someone who has studied some Chinese history and has a great deal of respect for Chinese culture and the Chinese people...sincerely, Stori
shareThanks, Stori,
Please correct me if I misunderstand you, I suppose what you mean by Chinese is the Han Chinese. As I have stated, the idea of have different ethnic groups and grouping people into different ethnic groups is just an idea. The Han Chinese itself is sometimes a misleading concept. It is formed by many ethnic groups (including tibetans) throughout the history and by no means monolithic. The difference within Han people are often much larger than some Han people to tibetans. There are no clear lines as the ethnic groups have been mixing over thousands of years. If you forget this idea of ethnic groups and treat one person as one person, there will be no difference between a tibetan and someone from my hometown. There are other chinese suffering from whatever fault from the government. If I were oppressed by the government, I may also have the idea of independence of my province from China, which will no difference from any tibetans suffered from whatever fault from the government. I would also think why should I governed by people from Beijing. But it is you that have the mindset that those are tibet people, I am just a Han people. If I say I am oppessed by the government and want independence of my province, you can ask yourself if you will support me as much as if I were a tibetan. Actually, what is the difference? To me, there is totally no difference. "Tibetan" and "Han" are just nothing but names.
I would state again that it is perfectly all right to critisize the government as long as it is not biased. If you want to complain about the government for the "crimes TODAY", it might be more appropriate to complain about the crimes committed to all the people (not just tibetans) with a single standard.
If Janpanese are a little bit like Germany, the Chinese won't be so furious. Please read some history before you bark.
share[deleted]
> Han Chinese with their convenient justification of Sino-centrism are planning to destroy Tibetan people and culture.
Hmm, the Tibetan language is being taught throughout Tibetan schools and the Tibetans can have more than one baby. The one-child policy applies only to the Han Chinese. A really odd way of trying to decimate a people - by allowing them to have more babies! This really makes sense, Rey Alvarez!
If you really have nothing better to do I suggest doing some volunteer work instead of disseminating hate mails without an iota of truth.
by - reyalvarez on Thu Aug 31 2006 07:33:17
Thank you, Doug-474, for the website address. The review by the exiled
Tibetan filmmaker is excellent. In spite of the transcendental beauty of this film, I am unimpressed by this film. I strongly feel that the director is simply kow-towing to the authorities and treating Tibetans like a bunch of
barbarians (or noble savages). The ultimate intention of Chinese government and people is clear from this film.
This is really late. I’m a Chinese. But I didn’t watch this movie until today. Anyway, I felt I want to say something when I saw this conversation and your comment. Firstly, I totally understand your feelings and why you hold that opinion. I think I became to identify with China disintegration after several phases, from simple hatred of the Chinese government, the emotional sympathy for the peoples whose cultures have been assimilated by Han Chinese culture, to the cognition of the economic correctness of disintegration. At least, until now, I believe that disintegration which is so hard for the average people to accept in this information blocked area, is good for all of us who now live in this huge country, but unfortunately, still lacks impact in such an ancient culture that still blindly adores unification in the modern time.
Actually, at first, I have also doubted why the Chinese government approved this movie so strongly, which stressed some aspects of the ingrained conflicts between peoples. I think you were probably right about the political intention of the Chinese government about this movie. But I’m sorry that it’s quite hard for me to believe the director of this movie holding an evil intention toward Tibet and the people. On the contrary, I guess the director has tried his best to push the balance to the best he could just to tell the truth. This is a movie made under one party dictatorship. Anyone who wants to say something that might be sensitive has to be terribly careful. Your idea that anyone should easily see the point that all the problems come from the occupation of Tibet by China could be understood by many Chinese. But it may take courage of people who live here to say it out loud, courage that led to Tiananmen massacre. Yes, people’s weakness is despicable. But maybe, this was the best the director could achieve for the movie in the situation.
Maybe you would also like to understand why Chinese people think in their own ridiculous way, besides just simply accuse them of being hypocritical. I think the majority of Chinese people are not really hypocritical, but truly ignorant. Most of their knowledge about history is quite different from yours. In other words, they are brainwashed to you. What they know about Tibet is that Tibet has been part of China since Qing dynasty. Around 1700, the Qing government conquered the land. And during the long governing period, nearly 300 years, by Manchurians, the Chinese have become a member of this country and many of them even well fitted in the Manchurian government. Then they probably started to think that Tibet is part of this country from then on. I guess that’s why most of the Chinese think they reclaimed Tibet, not invaded Tibet.
So, if you hate the opinions held by some Chinese and if you would like to do something, please try to tell the truth that you know to the. I believe, they will understand when you would like to reason them with the truth, the evidence and your patience. After all, the common Chinese are not all idiots or pure devils who only stick to Sino-centrism. But they lack the access to the important information that you learned. Well, this work is extremely demanding. I know that many people have been doing this on line, for years. But, the censor and stupidity has made it hard to progress. But, it's not impossible. Free China. Free Tibet. Free Xinjiang. Free South Mongolia. Free Manchuria. Free Wuyue. Free Shu. Free all the nations in China.These will happen.
Politcs is everywhere we choose to see it and so is cultural mindset. This is a Chinese-style homage to Sergio Leone and john Ford. Enjoy its toughness, style and artful approach. Honor its intention - to take the viewer through a brutal terrain of harsh indifference, and leave them with an impactful emotional memory of that simulated experience. that is all.
sharecompletely agree with you, people (on this board) want to impose their beliefs, politics, etc. on this movie...it's TRUE STORY, told on its own without having some kind of message against Tibet, or China, or whoever...Yes it is meant to make you think, but just becuase some of you guys think it's anti-Tibet, or hypocritical, or whatever doesn't mean that it is, it is YOUR OPINION...don't thrust your politics onto this movie as if it's "propoganda", that is just dumb...
"This is a Chinese-style homage to Sergio Leone and john Ford. Enjoy its toughness, style and artful approach. Honor its intention - to take the viewer through a brutal terrain of harsh indifference, and leave them with an impactful emotional memory of that simulated experience. that is all." - Sally-51
That is a very good way to describe it, why can't people just enjoy the movie?
Well said
shareIm not tibetan not chinese.
I found this link and its critique very good.
especially this comment
"
It is not surprising therefore, that although the portrayal of Tibetans in the film is sympathetic, it is essentially one-dimensional and patronizing."
Im tired of films made with a hippie dippie *beep* halfracist perspective. Like all tibetans or native indians or black people (before in the days you know) have some cind of special spiritual soul helped by all the beatiful scenery...its a positive effort but just gets wrong in the end. And people dont understand that when you point itout to them,,, they think theyre being nice while not in reality.
Nothing the Tibetans [poachers or mountain patrollers] did was savage or brutal, there was no "noble savage" theme in this film.
The poachers were farmers, at one time they killed antelope for sustenance, and then they began selling the fur; no one would call them "noble savages" for killing antelope for food so no one should call them "noble savages" for killing antelope for fur in order to earn money to survive.
People who raise animals for food and hide [clothing] and farm land for food are not "noble savages". We call them farmers.
The only "savages" depicted were the off-camera corporate businesses and wealthy Asians who turned the antelope fur into a capital commodity.
The only savages depicted were the off-camera corporate businesses who stole not only the antelope, but also cows and camels and chickens from the farmers [who were then forced to poach] - which were the sole source of livelihood for these people - in order to turn the animals into capital.
The only savages depicted were the off-camera wealthy Asians who wanted to buy antelope fur knowing that the fur was expensive because the antelope was rare and dwindling and a major source of livelihood for Tibetans and other Asians who were living in a barren, impoverished, desolate, uncultivable, landscape.
When I was watching this film, I did not perceive the poachers as "noble savages" nor did I perceive Ri Tai and his men as "vigilante".
I perceived the poachers and the mountain patrol exactly as Lu Chuan depicted them - as impoverished [because of the landscape], uneducated [because of lack of infrastructure which was the fault of the Tibetan government] normal farmers whose lives and culture were in the process of being destroyed by industrial market globalization.
There was no "noble savagery," only people trying to live their lives where they were born and being treated by their government like trash.
I'm Chinese and am sickened by people like reyalvarez's fear-mongering and portrayal of China as a race of warmongers who are only interested in killing Tibetans. The Chinese occupation of Tibet is not simply a black-and-white "genocide", the Chinese also introduced positive reforms of Tibetan society, and disbanded the previous serfdom society that hardly ever gets mentioned. And the only people here that are hypocrites are right-winger China-haters like reyalvarez, who seems to think that the Han Chinese and Tibetans should be eternal enemies and raise arms against each other. Have this person even been to Tibet? According to whom is the Chinese "regularly massacre Tibetans"?
If anyone had even bothered to read Chinese history, China is a large confederation of various cultures, including Han, Manchu, Mongols etc that were integrated into Chinese society in the various dynasties. And historically Vietnam was never part of China, but a puppet state used to fight the Khmers. And China never lost the Sino-Vietnamese War, since the objective is never occupation of Vietnam, but only sending a political signal towards the pro-Soviet Vietnamese communists. That's a clear contrast to the US military's quagmire in Iraq where thousands of civilians are killed daily thanks to your glourious country. Learn to clean up your own country before you attack others, hypocrite.
First of all, I will use the word Xi Zang instead of Tibet, This is a part of China, currently. Whether you like it or not, it is officially recognize by UN and your government. So please, there's no such thing as Tibet or Tibetan, they have a name, Xi Zang province, or Zang Zu as Tibetan. Okay? If you are talking about something in other cultural, You need to first learn RESPECT.
Hey, Listen, We Chinese did not "invade" Xi Zang. Please go online do some research, The concept "China" did not exist till the begining of this century, while the whole history of "China" can be traced back 3000 years. Many parts of this country "China" has claim independency on and off, may be this dynasty, Province A is a part of China, and the next dynasty, Province A is an independence country. But no matter what, The next dynasty(in here I mean the communist China) always want to regain all the terrotory of the last dynasty(In this case the Qing dynasty, Xi Zang was a part of Qing Dynasty). This is an INSTINCT of the Chinese people and the Chinese Culture and I do include Xi Zang as part of Chinese.
Zang Zu does not need some stranger to "help" speak for them. Especially when the government of these strangers want to see a separated China, a weak China, which can not challenge its domination of this world, this government teach their citizen to hate us Chinese people, to hate us Chinese government. You think you are here to promote human right, freedom, democracy, etc....what you are doing is for your own sake, your dictatorship.
This above paragraph is the reason we as Chinese people hated so much to discuss Xi Zang with American people. I am NOT here to post a hate speech, I am just trying to let you know from what angle do Chinese people look at this issue. Maybe there is some bloody racist inovlved, maybe not, may be the communist China did killed a bunch of Zang Zu, may be not. But that is all IRRELEVANT to the key matter. It is worthless to discuss this with American people who think---they are born to free others, those who do not agree with them must be evil, etc attitude. But thank God, we are not Iraq, our president is not Hussein. You can only talk bad about us Chinese.
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Though I agree with c850803,
I still don't see what this whole discussion has to do with the film.
The film wanted to tell something completely different.
PS: c850, you should also mention how the tibetans got together with the mongols to conquer China, at the time of Genghis Khan... Many don't know (or ignore) this part of history ;)
No you got it all wrong. Tibetians didn't get together with the Mongols. Your thinking of when the Mongols embedded themselves into Tibetian culture and the rich lords who ruled Tibet were descendents of Khans. That's the way China was back then even though it was a Country each province were technically governed by someone who was extremely wealthly.
About the movie. I don't see how anyone can see this as propaganda against Tibetians. If anything the film criticizes the lack of support Tibetians are getting from the Chinese Government and if it wasn't for Ga Yu exposing this story to the rest of China. They probably still wouldn't of gotten help from the governement to save the Tibetian Antelope.
Propaganda against the Tibetans? Are we watching the same film?
Movie contained essentially only one 1/2 Han Chinese, the Beijing reporter (and he is, as he said, a half-Tibetan - "my father was a Tibetan"). The poachers are Tibetans, the patrol volunteers are Tibetans too. If it says anything it only means that there are noble AND greedy people in Tibet JUST LIKE ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.
Where are your brains, fellas?
Correciton! It is so obvious that the poachers are Han Chinese.
shareThis whole thread shows how controversial the whole issue of Tibet and China is.
It's on par with the Israeli/Palestinian debate. Although these issues are not debates, more like side-taking.
Both the Chinese poster and the other guy are using flawed arguments to support their claims. History is very very complex, people generalize way too much about it.
I for myself will just say that I find it sad that Tibetan culture has disappeared to strongly under the boot of communism.
This is not side taking, its fact.
However, I strongly believe the West and any other party should (excuse my language) shut the hell up and not get involved.
There have been thousands of years of similar historical events in Europe, from wars of religions and revolutions, and the Chinese weren't there to criticize us or intervene.
I do find that the Tibet/China situation is quite similar to when the Monarchy fell in France and "republicans" took power. Before France was a divided country, Feudalism basically left alot of local freedom, everybody spoke different languages, etc.
Then Republicans attempted to unite the country under one rule, one language, one church, etc. Of course some people rebelled and the Republic violently repressed it. Some even call it the first known genocides in pre-modern history (Vendée, etc).
But now in 2013, France is a united country.
So China has done controversial things, but its its country, its history. Who are we to judge?
Sadly, the history of civilizations is one of broken eggs for the cooking of a larger omelet. Its always been so. This rainbow world that some people imagine is simply a flawed concept.
All I wish is this: China, you are gaining much power, but with power comes responsability to the world. Take responsibility for fair politics, fair environment policies, a good standard of living for your people, etc.
If all these are respected I wish your civilization all the best.
Already, to me, the good in China outweighs the bad. I have been there and although I am strongy anti-communist, I believe China is above many European countries in overall goodness.