MovieChat Forums > She Hate Me (2004) Discussion > lee's immaturity: shallow female charact...

lee's immaturity: shallow female characters as sex objects




look, she's gotta have it is a stupid male fantasy about a nymphomaniac.

this movie is also a stupid male fantasy about one guy going around screwing a bunch of women, and getting paid large sums of money to do it!!!! hahahaha! how idiotic is that??

if lesbians want a baby they do NOT have to have sex with a male.....and especially for 10,000 dollars????!!!

WTF!!!!

if lesbians want sperm they don't have to have sexual intercourse with a male. and they do NOT have to pay 10,000 dollars for it!!!

the whole premise of this movie is so false and stupid i wonder if spike lee has a brain in his head at all.

spike lee is known for having shallow female characters in his movies...usually as sex objects.

she's gotta have it....(the main character is a young pretty woman who is a nymphomaniac)
girl 6 (the main character is a young pretty woman who is a phone sex worker)

do the right thing (rosie perez's character exists as a nag with a nice pair of boobs, which of course are shown in close up and spike lee's character gets to rub ice cubes on them)

when it comes to his female characters the guy seems to have the maturity level of a 13 year old.

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As much as i appreciate spike lee films and anxiously await them, i couldn't agree with you more. i've always noticed spike's one-note women characters over the years but never have i been this angered by it. This movie will make many black men stand up and cheer (perhaps guiltily but still), and have many black women leaving the theater wondering how stupid spike lee must think we are. Stupid premise - and bad writing aside, this movie angered me like no other spike lee movie has. Usually I want to defend spike's efferts (Girl 6 being the exception - PHONES FELL FROM THE SKY for pete's sake), but there is no excuse for this crap.

This is what he came up with after creating bamboozled?! maybe he should watch his own film.


Cue Music... Slow Curtain... The End [wave2]

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yes...she hate me has the plot of a porn movie.

maybe lee should team up with tarantino...they both seem to have the maturity of 13 year olds in their latest movies.. ( and all of tarantino's movies).

at least do the right thing had a point, and malcolm x was based on the life of a real person, so spike couldn't screw that up too much.

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you all obviously have not seen this movie and if you have and miss the "real" plot...I can only say this...

"I pointed out to you the stars and the moon in the sky, and all you saw was the point in my finger ."- African proverb.

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25th Hour was a step up, though. The female characters there were more drawn out and more fleshed out. They were sexual and sexy. But they weren't cliches. Maybe it's because Spike didn't write the script...His screenplays are getting a bit ehh...

The film was very good...For a while...The whole lesbian thing was absurd...But it was kinda interesting...Thing is, I didn't buy how quickly he turned...I didn't appreciate Spike giving me different clips of him walking down Times Square and then suddenly going for the whole sperm for money thing...Where was the character development there? I didn't buy that this seemingly great guy just gave in so quickly...And the sex scenes...It takes me back to He Got Game...A very good film I need to watch again...But the sex scenes were absurd. There were too many. And there were too many flashbacks to to ugly dirty sex and it just didn't seem important. Here, the sex scenes go on for too long. The first one is extreme, but I didn't have a problem with it (I'm talking about the scene with Kerry Washington). The other scenes...Well, they had some very funny moments. But they were also overlong and a bit stereotypical(That rapper whore wanting to get all freaky with the other girl...). And most importantly, the scenes detracted and took away from the pacing and the overall story. Sometimes good scenes-even great scenes-are cut because they don't belong...These were sometimes funny, overlong and often ugly scenes that were kept in...And the sperm with his face...Ehh...Too much but kinda funny...It became a monotonous thing...And again, those sex scenes with the lesbians were just overly dramatic and ugly...Made me feel dirty. It's like I lost my innocence in a span of a few minutes, lol...Well, that may be an exaggeration...And the lesbian scene in the kitchen...It wasn't sweet or beautiful. It was just horny and...I didn't buy it...And...


*(Start Spoiler)*


The three of them kissing in the end...It wasn't beautiful. It was making out. It was completely sexual and nothing more...That was garbage.


*(End Spoiler)*



The score was very good though not always used right (The scene where they make the sperm offer-ha-).


BUT...It was very well directed (Despite some overly in your face moments like the scene between him and Barkin in the beginning). And the cast is superb. It's one of the year's best ensembles...BUT the real stand out is...DUH!
Anthony Mackie is one hell of a find. He gives an utterly convincing and absolutely commanding performance...It's Oscar caliber work...Now, I can guarantee I won't have him as one of my Best Actor nominees by year's end. But it's a performance that I wouldn't mind seeing on anyone's list...Brilliant work. He's even brilliant when the film (The hearings procedure...They gave him too many cliches) and the dialogue (Those scenes with Q-Tip) let him down. He's really great in this.

So, it's a film people should see. It's interesting. But I think it is, in the end, supbar...And I liked that Richard Nixon/Wills flashback...Odd but funny.





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My favourite related quote; Black author Rosalind Lloyd says, "There is an obvious fine line between exploitation and visibility for us as lesbians and lesbians of color in this film. Real authentic lesbians will not sleep with men for any reason at all."

Selma here and Lloyd have taken a census of all lesbians in the world, and feel confident in stating this to be true. Either that or they have proclaimed themselves Queen of the lesbians.

And please; "Lesbians of color." I'm left wing and that phrase made we want to vote rush Limbaugh president of earth.

"There is no gravity, the world merely sucks."

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Isn't this a movie? If it is, are not movies just visual FANTASIES? I see a lot people complaining about movies basically saying "That's not real!" Well, you're right, it's not. So to say "the whole premise of this movie is so false" is so redundant I can't believe you took the time to write it. I'm not trying to be rude but if you're going to criticize the movie, do it but do it right. Spike Lee did not say this was a documentary. Movies are visual art and art imitates life. So just because every lesbian doesn't have sex to make a baby doesn't mean that none have or will.

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'So just because every lesbian doesn't have sex to make a baby doesn't mean that none have or will. '

not only do lesbians not have to have sex with a male, NO women do. lol!!!

and in fact, lesbians have sex with women, not men, and the vast majority of them do not ever have sex with males. a lesbian who wants to get pregnant will be artificially inseminated.

also, one women having unproteced sex with 18 different partners is a sure way to spread sexually transmitted diseases. the black community is being majorly impacted by hiv/aids. a fact
of which spike lee seems blissfully unware.


'"the whole premise of this movie is so false"

yes, it is a stupid male fantasy, and exists nowhere in reality other than spike lee's perverted mind, or the plots of porn movies.

so why bother spending millions of dollars making a movie that is completely untrue??

and why bother advertising, and marketing it if it contains no useful information??

'I'm not trying to be rude but if you're going to criticize the movie, do it but do it right.'

my comments are as valid as anyone else's.

'If it is, are not movies just visual FANTASIES? '

then you say:

'Movies are visual art and art imitates life.'

your statements are contradictory.

oh, this movie is not art. it is soft porn, with a tedious morality.

oddly lee, likes condemning others, yet gives himself complete freedom to do whatever he wants in his movies....such as featuring a nymphomaniac in she's gotta have, another asinine male fantasy, and in this movie that has the plot of a porn movie.

one man paid 180k to screw 18 different women, taking viagra and screwing several in the same night!! and of course they are all young, and attractive.

and the lesbians admire his dong....lol!!! that is so beeping stupid its unbelievable.

lesbians don't like dongs. does spike lee not understand that???


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Well, I seem to be the only person in the world who likes this movie so thought I would chime in. I suppose we've all read Ebert's review of the film and I agree with him 100%. Lee knows exactly what he is doing. He knows this movie is homophobic, racist, sexist, overlong, badly written, performed, etc. But we are talking about a director similar to Altman who wants to rattle us. True filmmakers are making movies about movies not about characters. It's not a popular approach but considering almost every film coming out tends to lean towards characters -- and some of them very good, I see nothing wrong with someone who is working within the context of the medium. She Hate me is a comment on film itself, it plays with our attention span and our patience. It doesn't allow us to laugh when we want to or cry when we should be. He's playing with the auteur theory in a way that only an established director can.

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'He knows this movie is homophobic, racist, sexist, overlong, badly written, performed, etc.'

i don't think 'playing with auteur theory' is a good enough justification for making this movie so poorly.

i also think that 'auteur theory' is merely intellectualizing, rather than telling the truth.

also many filmmakers get far too much credit for their 'intelligence' due to a bizarre, and false
assumption that there is something inherently 'intellectual' about films.

there is not, and never has been. leave it to the french to make up some useless intellectualizing about 'the cinema' and then have members of the public assume that film directors are all
'intelligent' or 'intellectual' or 'brilliant'. many film directors are merely average dorks benefitly hugely from the misconception that making a movie means a person is intelligent.

i don't think lee knows what he is doing at all. a man having unprotected sex with 18 women, and no mention of STDS!!!!!!!!!!!!

and yet promiscuity is the main risk factor for getting HIV/AIDS, genital warts, syphilis, hepatitis c, and so on. same situation with she's gotta have...lots of unprotected sex which is the best way to both contract and transmit STDs. lee seems to have learned nothing at all on this score from 1986 to 2004. Which is why I said he is immature, and also ignorant.

why even bother making a movie that is so false, and misleading, and spreads dangerous misinformation???

has he no sense of social responsibility, or is merely very ignorant and doesn't realize at all
the terrible omission of the very real sexual health aspects of his very lame movies.

i think it is definitely his immaturity and ignorance. in she's gotta have it. he even has a female
'psychologist' stating that nola's promiscuity is 'healthy'. which is completely contradicted by the reality of any sexual health science....promiscuity is the main risk factor in contracting and spreading AIDS, hepatitis C, genital warts, etc. and it is women who bare the brunt to sexually transmitted diseases because they can have their fertility destroyed by stds.

does lee have no idea at all about the reality of STDs??

he has no idea about the great negative impact that AIDS is having and has had upon the black community??

his irresponsibility in pumping out such false information in his movies is shocking.

and he is about 50 years old. he seems to be less informed than some 13 year olds.

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I didn't see this stupid movie, but I question the title of the movie. She Hate Me??? Isn't Spike Lee always the one going around criticizing young blacks for not speaking proper english and seeing it as being a white thing? Now he goes and makes a movie with improper english in the title. Nice way to lead by example Spike. Was it really that hard to add in an extra S so it reads "She Hates Me." I'm not trying to be the language police, but neither should Spike since he makes movies entitled "She Hate Me" and "He Got Game."

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"so why bother spending millions of dollars making a movie that is completely untrue?? "

They spent millions of dollars on "Indepedence Day" but I have yet to see any aliens on the White House lawn. They spent millions of dollars on lots of movies but they aren't true either. This leads to your next statement:

"your statements are contradictory." when I said:

"'If it is, are not movies just visual FANTASIES? '

then you say:

'Movies are visual art and art imitates life.' "

How are they contradictory. Imitation is not real, so the statement is a valid one. Movies are not real, not true or how ever else you want to put it. They are based on real things but that don't make them true. We can't forget there is a difference. When we start taking movies, TV, etc as fact we distort what is real. You overemphazied this movie as if it will somehow hurt lesbians. If a lesbian doesn't want to have sex with a man, this movie won't change that. This movie won't in anyway change the world. Some guy may get his kicks watching it but if he has any plans on getting with a lesiban because of it, as you said in your reply, lesiban won't have sex with men.


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STDs wasn't a huge topic of discussion, but it was mention a few times. The company was working on an AIDs vaccine - and I vaguely remember Fatima stating that Jack was clean of any diseases when she was given his credentials to the clients. Isn't it also true that lesbians have the lowest rate of sexual transmitted diseases? (minus virgins of course :-)

The topic probably should have been explored more deeply, but I'll give Lee a pass on this. However, I won't give him a pass for the overall anti-lesbian nature of the film.





My Blog - Dialectic Humanism: http://dialectichumanism.blogspot.com/

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' I vaguely remember Fatima stating that Jack was clean of any diseases'

how would she know?

did she test him each time after he had sex with a different person?

because that is the only way to know.

'isn't it also true that lesbians have the lowest rate of sexual transmitted diseases? (minus virgins of course :-) '

supposedly.

but are not some of the so called 'lesbians' presented as bisexual?

meaning that it is not their first time having sex with a male.

also hepatitis and hiv can be spread by means other than sex. and chlamydia can live on
sex toys. so those lesbians *could* have something.

my point was that she's gotta have it is about a female 'nympho' with no mention at all of
STDs or unwanted pregnancy, or abortion, and nearly 20 years later he is making another
movie with almost no realistic information about STDs.

'overall anti-lesbian nature of the film'

yes.

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my last comment was to those who missed the plot of the movie and not to everyone (I misspoke and said ALL)..so allow me to give my opinion. I thought this one one of Spike Lee's better movies. It had a message, it had humor, it related to the topics of today's society...acceptance, forgiveness, love, unconditional love, hypocrisy, shame... all that under one movie. And then it gave a little history lesson about the forgotten heros (whistleblowers) man I can't rave about this movie enough. Forget what critics say ....can we say Passions of Christ... anyway I would suggest everyone see this movie. The ending is a little weird and hard too believe but it's forgiveable. I can't wait til it comes out on DVD this is one of those watch over and over again movies.
I thougth it had a realistic view of how hard it is to come out in a society where(friends..ex lovers) may not accept you. Always doubted yourself and doubting your feelings. I don't think it was anti-lesbian I think it was honest with some exagerated humor(i.e.coed sex scenes)Anyhoo selmaboots get over it.

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Dear Morons,
Spike Lee is a filmmaker on a short list with directors like Herzog, Sayles, Jarmusch, Altman, Paul Thomas Anderson, Todd Solondz and the new kid, David Gordon Green. He dances to his own music. He no doubt knows all the objections that can be raised against his film. He knows that structurally it's all over the map. He knows the lesbian storyline is logically and emotionally absurd. He knows Frank Wills came in from left field. He knows he begins with a conventional drama about rotten corporations and then jumps ship. He knows all of that. He teaches film at Harvard, for chrissakes. So why did he make this movie, this way?

I could call him up and ask him, but maybe the point is to look at this film, ask myself that question and avoid the easy answer, which is that he made a preposterous movie because he didn't know any better. He knows better. He could have delivered a safe, politically correct, well-made film without even breathing hard.

But this is the work of a man who wants to dare us to deal with it. Who is confronting generic expectations, conventional wisdom and political correctness. Whose film may be an attack on the sins it seems to commit. Who is impatient with the tired rote role of the heroic African-American corporate whistleblower (he could phone that one in). Who confronts the pious liberal horror about such concepts as the inexhaustible black stud, and lesbians who respond on cue to a sex with a man -- and instead of skewering them, which would be the easy thing to do, flaunts them.

His movie seems to celebrate those forbidden ideas. Why does he do this? Perhaps because to attack those concepts would be simplistic, platitudinous and predictable. But to work without the safety net, to deliberately be offensive, to refuse to satisfy our generic expectations, to dangle the conventional formula in front of us and then yank it away, to explode the structure of the movie, to allow it to contain anger and sarcasm, impatience and wild, imprudent excess, to find room for both unapologetic, melodramatic romance and satire -- well, that's audacious. To go where this film goes and still to have the nerve to end the way he does (with a reconciliation worthy of soap opera, and the black hero making a noble speech at a congressional hearing) is a form of daring beyond all reason.

My guess is that Lee is attacking African-American male and gay/lesbian stereotypes not by conventionally preaching against them, but by boldly dramatizing them. The inspiration for "She Hate Me" may be his "Bamboozled" (2000), an attack on black stereotypes that was one of his least successful films. Having failed with a frontal assault, he returns to the battle using indirection. By getting mad at the movie, we arrive at the conclusions he intends. In a sense, he is sacrificing himself to get his message across.

Either that, or I have completely misread "She Hate Me," but I couldn't write the obvious review. I couldn't convince myself I believed it. This film is alive and confrontational and aggressively in our face, and the man who made it has abandoned all caution, even to the point of refusing to signal his intentions, to put in a wink to let us see he knows what he's doing.

Love,
Roger Ebert

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