MovieChat Forums > Helter Skelter (2004) Discussion > Coulpla of things that have always bugge...

Coulpla of things that have always bugged me...

posted 10 years ago by LuvvieHowell
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I have no doubt Manson is a complete lunatic, and I think that prison is where he belongs. BUT. I have always had an issue with a couple of things:

1. Why didn't he continue his theories about Helter Skelter after he was arrested? If he was so sure about it all, why didn't he mention it in court? On tv? In interviews? Once he was arrested, you never heard him speak about it.

2. If he was truly THAT deluded, bottomless pits in the desert, hidden gold, the end of civilization, justifying the senseless and bloody murders of innocent people, then why wasn't he declared insane? Or at least unfit to assist in his own defense?

There has always been things that don't add up in the whole Manson story...I lived through it and it still bugs me. Anyone got answers? (Note: I'm absolutely NOT pro-Manson, nor a follower of his supposed environmental group ATWA...which only popped up 10 years after...and how do I know this? I WAS THERE..I'm old!)

Part of what is so scary about him is that he does possess of high degree of social intelligence. You see this alot with kids who survive childhood abuse..they learn 'tells' and how to read people from an early age (a survival mechanism.) Coupled with a good memory, and knack for phraseology, and you get someone who sort of sounds like he might be saying something profound.

I once heard him say "Look down at me, you see a fool. Look up at me, you see a God." That's pretty cool...then he starts babbling and making faces and looking ridiculous and you think: Geez, how could ANYONE have thought this guy was a prophet and not just a crazy con artist?

He's definitely colorful, and I think that is why he's stayed in the American landscape of pop culture for so long. What I detest is talking to anyone in the Pro-Manson camp, because they never answer a question directly. They justify the murder of Sharon Tate by saying things like "well what about all the Native Americans the white man killed?" Loop-dee-loop logic. One thing has nothing to do with another, and just because humanity has done hideous things, created wars, participate in genocides, etc, doesn't mean the owner of a grocery store should have been stabbed to death with the word "WAR" carved in his chest.

But I digress. Can anyone answer me? Thanks....

[–] moosefeathers 10 years ago

Helter Skelter was used as a motive to get him and crew charged and tried for the murders because there was no other way to do it. Read the book and you see the frustration they were going through, until Bugliosi came up with this theory that was able to be used as a motive.

From Manson's point of view i don't think he was ever serious about it, just alot of psychobabble to get his followere in awe of him.

Swing away, Merrill....Merrill, swing away...

[–] Sorcerersbroom 10 years ago

I was just thinking about why they didn't keep killing for Helter Skelter, also.

I have heard different theories on some of the TV documentaries; the girls were actually behind the murders because they wanted to free Bobby B--kind of far out since he was caught driving Gary Hinman's car so the police had other evidence to arrest him. Plus I don' think the girls were thinking clearly enough at that point to plan anything. Another theory was that Manson had to force Helter Skelter because he was losing control over the family. Yet another thing I heard was that he wanted revenge for the lack of interest in his music and it really wasn't about Helter Skelter at all.

But I wonder if that question has ever been addressed...I guess that's just another question we won't ever know the answer to.

I read a few books about the "family", but I don't recall any information on why they stopped. Maybe the raid on the ranch shortly after the murders made Manson paranoid and he decided to move back to Barker Ranch; murders in a less populated area would have thrown suspicion on the "family" for sure. And when Linda left the ranch, that may have spooked him as well. It's horrible that anyone had to die, but I guess we should be grateful that it did stop.

[–] LuvvieHowell 10 years ago

Thanks for both replies.

I know I'm answering my own question here, but I read a paper that Susan Atikins wrote (it is on her website; still maintained, I'm assuming, by her husband, an attorney.) She writes very convincingly about what Charlie was like back in the Spahn/Barker days. Susan had a strong personality and, unlike the other girls (who bowed down to Charlie and fawned over him) she would often confront him, and talk back (which earned her some beatings. More about that later.) Because of what Charlie perceived as her "uppity atittude" he didn't allow her to stay with the women (thought she would be a bad influence; they might pick up some her "habits" such as challenging Charlie) so instead, she had to bunk with the men.

As a result, she got to witness all the different sides of Charlie. To the women, he'd protray one side (and one motive for his actions.) Out of earshot of the gals, and in the company of "the boys" he was very different.

I'll try to make this as brief as possible. Basically, what she says is that 'yes' he did espouse theories about Helter Skelter, a race war, tne end of the world, etc. But only to certain people (with whom he knew that sort of reasoning would be appealing. ) With others (mostly men) it was about DRUGS and MONEY.

At least one of the victims, possibly more, of the Tate house were dealing hard drugs. It's a risky business, and puts you in contact with ex-felons, people who aren't playing with a full deck, or the morally corrupt (in Manson's case, he is and was, all three.) Add to that the fact that `1. it was California; a haven for non-conformists and the birthplace of alternative lifestyles 2. it was the 1960's a period of intense social unrest. 3. celebrities, who, it seems get into more trouble than the average Joe Q. Public.

Watson was the only male of the Manonsites at the Tate house that night. I don't know (I can look it up) if he pointed a gun at Voytek or Sebring...if he did, they didn't have much choice but to become victims. If Tex was holding a knife only, I've always wondered by the 2 men didn't tackle him. I'll have to look at the autopsy reports again; does anyone know if there were defensive wounds? Did any of the victims try to inflict physical damage to the attackers?

Of course, I'm leaving out the fact that Watson was tweaking on meth that night...which can (temporarily) give people tremendous strength. And he isn't a diminutive man...he's over six feet tall, was a high school football star, etc.

Imagine how differently it would have all gone down if the inhabitants of the Tate house were able to subdue Watson, Krenwinkle, Atkins and Van Houten. Was there a loaded gun on the premises? People tend to forget what a brutal and grisly manner of death these folks suffered through (as did the LaBianca's the next night.)

Finally, it boggles my mind that Tex Watson attends all his parole hearings, and actually thinks he deserves to be let out of prison. Never!

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] frankwilkeson 8 years ago

Manson was decades ahead of his time. The race war he predicted is now in full swing. It goes under the name #blacklivesmatter.

[–] star_in_the_zenith_79 8 years ago

Imagine how differently it would have all gone down if the inhabitants of the Tate house were able to subdue Watson, Krenwinkle, Atkins and Van Houten. Was there a loaded gun on the premises? People tend to forget what a brutal and grisly manner of death these folks suffered through (as did the LaBianca's the next night.)

Leslie Van Houten never went to the Tate house, only the LaBiancas the following night. In fact that's the reason some people think she deserves parole, because she only went one night and some even say she didn't actually kill anyone, that she only stabbed Rosemary LaBiana after she was already dead. And only because Tex told her to because he had instructions from Manson for everyone to participate.

As for the inhabitants of the Tate house subduing the killers, they never really had much of a chance. Steven Parent and Jay Sebring were shot and incapacitated before they had a chance to put up much of a fight. Voytek Frykowski did put up a terrific fight from what I've seen, he even overpowered Susan Atkins and almost got away but Tex finished him. Had he had a weapon he might have even been able to fight Tex off. Sharon and Abigail were not exactly heavyweights either, especially Sharon being 8-9 months pregnant. It wasn't exactly like taking down marines or anything. It was pretty cowardly.

[–] star_in_the_zenith_79 8 years ago

Finally, it boggles my mind that Tex Watson attends all his parole hearings, and actually thinks he deserves to be let out of prison. Never!

I agree. If there is one Manson family member besides Charlie himself who should never get out, its Tex Watson. From what I have read, this guy dealt the fatal wounds to at least six of the seven Tate-LaBianca victims, maybe all seven. Patricia Krenwinkel may have killed Abigail Folger, but Tex Watson murdered all the rest of them almost single handidly. HE even admitted he killed Sharon Tate when for so long people thought it was Susan Atkins.