Give Sebring his due!


You know, really, if there were an actual hero in this whole tragic thing, it would be Jay Sebring, NOT that whiny little snitch Linda Kasabian! Yeah, I find her to be just as freaking guilty as Van Houten, yet who is behind bars and who is out continuing her life of crime by selling drugs?
Anyway...back to Sebring.
This poor man lost his girlfriend to Polanski, ended up giving his blessing and becoming good friends with Roman, although everyone knew he never got over his love for Sharon. He died trying to protect the woman he loved, even though her baby wasn't his, even though she cheated on him and left him for someone else.
I am in awe of him. What an amazing, heroic man Jay Sebring was.

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Applause, applause, applause, applause!!

Nicely said!

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[deleted]

he died bravely. Not to mention Tex Watson is 6'2", had a knife and a gun and Jay was only 5'6" but still tried to fight back and protect his friends.

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He was 5'6" and got a Hot woman like Sharon Tate??? wow that's awesome

Boston and Philly love to slander us, but they don't have as many fans as us

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Polanski was even shorter than Sebring was. People in the biz would often make reference to Polanski's short stature.

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well I don't think anyone suggests that Linda Kasabian was a hero, but saying she is the same as Van Houten is rather silly. Van Houten viciously stabbed a defenseless woman in the back, 16 times. And this was after she held her down for Krenwinkel to stab, and tied a pillowcase over her head. Linda never even entered any of the homes and had no thirst for blood. Selling some dope is not a good thing, but it's not stabbing someone 16 times, severing their spinal cord, and then laughing about it in a courtroom.

As far as Sebring, you are right on there.

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[deleted]

Well said!

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[deleted]

What's with this nastiness towards Linda? She had a baby boy in the ranch. Who knows what they were going to do to her and the baby? Without her testinomy, they would still be walking. So STFU


TEAM OBAMA!

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Yes, Jay Sebring died heroically. All the victims should still be living now, enjoyed the fruits of retirement and grandchildren.

As for Kasabian, Bugliousi would not have been able to put the Mansonites away without her testimony, so we should be grateful to her in that sense. Whether or not she could have done more is debatable.

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Yes, Linda was a GREAT mother! I seem to recall her leaving her precious child behind when she ran away. Truly heroic.
I think I would have a lot more respect for her had she not tried to profit from her role in these grotesque crimes. Anyone who DOESN'T see that she tried to cash in on her part in all of this should do some reading. It's disgusting. She belongs behind bars with the others; don't base your opinions on this issue on some movie or book. Look a bit further and try to find some unbiased information. It's certainly not easy to find but the information IS out there. Both Helter Skelter films were entertaining but lacking in that they tried to portray certain people as heroes and others as villains, when the reality is that everyone was in the gray area.
Oh, and to the infantile moron calling ME a dumbass: surely you can do better than that! If you're going to insult someone of a higher intelligence than yourself then at least make use of a dictionary and be a wee bit more creative.

Btw: what do you all think of Atkins applying for compassionate release? Apparently she has 6 months to live. I personally think she needs to die behind bars.

http://www.myspace.com/raineduponraven

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I'm sorry, not to burst anyone's bubble, but by the killer's account Jay never did anything but talk. His hands were tied, he couldn't have done anything. Tex told him to shut up, one more word and he was dead, and he told Tex to let Sharon sit down, then Tex shot him.

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Btw: what do you all think of Atkins applying for compassionate release? Apparently she has 6 months to live. I personally think she needs to die behind bars.

From what I understand if she were to be released the family member who took her would have to assume responsibility for the rest of her medical bills. Otherwise the state has to absorb the cost. I say let her out since it will only be an "on paper" release. Let someone else besides the CA taxpayers flip the bill for her for a change. Regardless she won't go anywhere except for a hospital or hospice. She will not die behind bars. They're not going to say "oh, yeah, you were denied release so now we're going to wheel you back to your cell".

As for Kasabian, I've always wondered about her. Why did Manson select her to go along when she had only been with the Family for less than two months? I don't buy the "she-had-the-only-valid-license" reason. These people were doing illegal things left and right. Why stop at driving without a license? Besides Watson did much of the driving the night of the Tate murders. I believe that all three women knew exactly why they were going to the Tate house. It seems pretty stupid to me for Watson to keep his crime partners in the dark and unprepared. I know people say she worried about her daughter who was back at the ranch with Manson and the Family. But a couple days later she fled without Tanya anyway. Apparently her fears and concerns abated pretty quickly.

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but when she fled without tanya to find her husband and firgure out what to do next, she testified that she knew they wouldn't harm tanya *as long as she didn't go to the police*. Keeping people's children basically separated from them was a very effective tactic to keep them quiet - it was no accident they were kept at the waterfall camp a lot of the time.

So here's Linda out on the open road, thinking "go to the police, turn them in, and maybe never see Tanya again - or find hubby and figure out how to get tanya back without involving the police."

Either way it had to be a difficult choice for any mother. And who knows how clearly she was thinking considering every she had just seen.

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explain the cashing in part, would you? she's had almost zero publicity since the trial and kept a very low profile for the most part. She never wrote a book or tried to become famous and a media whore.

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As for Kasabian, I've always wondered about her. Why did Manson select her to go along when she had only been with the Family for less than two months? I don't buy the "she-had-the-only-valid-license" reason. These people were doing illegal things left and right. Why stop at driving without a license? Besides Watson did much of the driving the night of the Tate murders. I believe that all three women knew exactly why they were going to the Tate house. It seems pretty stupid to me for Watson to keep his crime partners in the dark and unprepared.
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explain the cashing in part, would you? she's had almost zero publicity since the trial and kept a very low profile for the most part. She never wrote a book or tried to become famous and a media whore.
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To say that Linda tried to cash in on the case and "set-up" Charlie and the rest, I think is pure *beep*

But I will say this:
In Helter Skelter, it says that Linda just thought that they where going on yet another "creepy-crawl."
But in a documentary, Manson Women, Barbara Hoyt say that she had heard from a ranch-hand that had asked Sadie were they where going on the night of the Tate murders. And Sadie "lean out of the car window and said 'we are going to kill some mother F pigs"
So if Sadie did say that, Linda most have known what was going on, also:
(from the book The Family, by Ed Sanders) page 202:

Tex told Linda that the gun was in the glove compartment. Three knives were on the front right floor of the automobile. Tex told her to bundle up the knives and gun and then to throw them out the window if the police attempted to pick them up. This Linda did, bundling them with her very own shirt.
Linda Kasabian testified that she believed she was merely going on a second-story caper in Beverly Hills. A second-story caper with forty three feet of rope and gun, change of clothing and three sharp knives.

Now, I don't say that I believe that Linda was in on the murders. In fact she did prevent a murder from happening the next night.
I just don't like the idea that if you only read Bugliosi's book, or watch the tv-movie(s), and don't know anything else about the case, you might be left with the idea that Linda was such a sweat-heart. were in real life, nobody is a saint.
And this is what Bugliosi did wrong, in order to understand the Manson Family and what made it tick, you can't use the old "good guys vs. bad guys"-cliché because that isn't how it comes down in real life.
This might be why I don't like the tv-movie Helter Skelter, neither the original or the remake.

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So what if he had sex with numerous women per week (if that IS the truth??) He was single and not doing anything that many other people in that era weren't doing too!!

As far as the drugs, if he was such a major "coke head," why wasn't any found in his system during his autopsy? If he was so addicted, there'd certainly be some there because a true addict couldn't be without it.

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[deleted]

Bugliosi is not going to talk down his witness and jeopardize the case. I did notice he portrayed her very benignly in the book and interviews and think she might not be as innocent as she says. However, she had only been with the family for a few weeks and it is questionable whether she would have been so deluded by Charlie to murder for him in such a short time span. I noticed a similar phenomenon in Goodfellas where Henry Hill is always just a passive spectator during all the murders and he only admits guilt of lesser crimes.

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You're an Obama fan so your opinion don't matter.

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No one should take you seriously. You're a Obama lover. Gross!

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Ok I'll agree about him trying to protect Sharon to a degree during the assault on Cielo Drive, but if you read Bugliosi's book 'Helter Skelter' which is factual on what the LA police found at the scene Seibrings Body and Porsche Car was found with Drugs (he was a coke head) and also believed that he had many one night stands and some weeks met as many as 4/5 women for sex. You forget he was a well known celebrity hair stylist in the hedonistic late 60's in LA/Beverly Hills area (your worlds your oyster).

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A lot of people did drugs in the 60s. Manson and his followers were no strangers to drug use. And sex for the Manson family? We won't even go there. Compared to them, Sebring's drug use and sexual activities (and we'll never know how many girlfriends he had), seem pretty tame. And Sebring at least was a successful businessman, while Manson and his followers sponged off of who they could (including the poor, elderly and blind George Spahn), and committed heinous crimes.

Sharon Tate used drugs socially (until she learned of her pregnancy). Does that make her less than human and mean that she deserved to be murdered? No, neither did Jay, Voytek Frykowski and Abigail Folger (both of whom also did drugs). We don't need a repeat of blaming the victims for their own deaths and slandering them when they aren't alive to defend themselves. The press did that enough after the murders, which was very hurtful to the families of the victims.

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Umm Okay I agree that he was very heroic in trying to protect Sharon --I agree he never got over his love for her and it's great to know that they were friends as well as he and Roman were on good terms - However this isn't the subject of lovetriangles. its the heartbreaking and horrific murders of 5 people- -- ( to go into their past and cheating -etc. is taking away from the point of this board. The only thing I will say about their relationship is no one knows what went on between them leading her to pick Roman over him. There are also stories I have read that jay was at one point a little abusive toward Sharon... so who knows... what matters is they were all together and i am sure all trying to comfort each other in any they could during the most terrifying moments of their lives. As far as judging Linda, I think you are going a little too far- Linda, never hurt anyone. she was forced to look out for the killers. If you read all thats been said about her. and what she has said herself. she was very much the oppoisite as the killers.Put yourself in her shoes. you are listening to horrible murders and are powerless to do anthing. -She tried to get away- but was afraid of what would happen to her if they caught her.Don't make her out to be some traitor. you praise jay for his courage- yet call linda a snitch for going to the authorities?What a contradiction. As far as dealing drugs?? what is that about? Its a shame you blame her and much as the killers themselves. The only mistake she made was getting involved with them.

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According to John Tate, Jay and Voytek were both involved in either torturing and possibly sexually assaulting a drug dealer who burned them on a deal. This came from the book Restless Souls.
However I do think that Jay must of really loved Sharon to stick beside her even into her new relationship and Sharon I believe must of really loved Jay too as a close friend.

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Ok people............watch Six Degrees of Helter Skelter. Its a documentary on Netflix. It is awesome! It even goes over the autopsy reports of the victims and guess what............Jay Sebring didn't have any drugs in his system nor did Sharon Tate. Abby and Voyetk has something like mdmma like a small quantity. They really weren't partying. The documentary was enlightening. Also, there was incident involving Linda where she had the chance to part of killing another man and she took the Manson Family to the wrong apartment because she felt bad. Soooooooo I don't think she had it in her to murder. Also other Manson family members said Squeaky couldn't do anything like that either. She was more like the "house mother"

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I'm still waiting on a movie/documentary to emerge about Jay Sebring. I want to know more about him, his life.
Yes, he's been deceased for decades, but something about him intrigues me. Mr. Sebring was a loyal friend, a handsome man, and an excellent businessman.
Too bad he (and the others) were cut down by those creatures. Life sometimes makes no sense.

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That would be interesting - he was pretty well known at the time of the murders.

The actor in this version of Helter Skelter didn't look like him at all, although it might have helped had the actors playing Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring been wearing clothing more like what they were found wearing the next morning.

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What really burns me about the portrayal of Jay Sebring in this TV movie is, the character isn't even shown wearing the world-famous Sebring haircut.

Waddup wid dat? Before he became famous for the way he died, his only claim to fame was the hair care products marketed under his name, and especially the hair style he pioneered, and was wearing at the time he died... And the actor playing him is wearing hair straight out of 1962. Mmmmm yeah, that makes a lot of sense. There's your "respect for the dead" for you.

"I don't deduce, I observe."

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