MovieChat Forums > Paper Clips (2006) Discussion > If the lesson is about tolerance...

If the lesson is about tolerance...


Shouldn't it be eleven million paper clips? For all the people who the Nazis didn't tolerate? Just askin'...

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I agree with you...what about the gays, the gypsies, the political prisoners, blacks, and many other minorities

"All I wanted was just what everybody else wants, you know, to be loved."

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At the time the "paperclip" part of the project started (originally the project was just students meeting together and talking about how to be tolerant and then the paperclips were started to give us students a way of know how much that really was) paperclips were coming in few and far between and no one at in the project actually thought we would get 1.5 million to represent the children and then we got that. So the next step was 6 million for the Jews that were killed and then we got that. And in between 6 million and now, we have collected upwards of 30 million paperclips. So to answer your question collecting the paperclips really wasnt the lesson of tolerance, it was the other things we did, read books, listened to speakers, watched movies and spoke in group lectures. Those were the things that taught tolerance. Paperclips just showed us what that extreme number really looked like.

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I just saw the movie yesterday. And I realize that now. I was a bit prejudice against the movie because I felt that they should have showed 12 million paperclips because 12 million people were killed. And it wasn't just the Jews. Anyway the movie was phenomenal and I rarely cry at movies and this one got me choked up. I have a dear friend who survived the holocaust so stories like the ones told in the film always hit home to me. Several times you said "we" were you part of the project?

"All I wanted was just what everybody else wants, you know, to be loved."

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Yes, I was one of the two male students that spoke during an interview. I was the one that they only showed once.

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That's incredible. I applaude you!

~Glamour is what I sell, it's my stock in trade.~

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Can you tell me where you saw it? I can't seem to find any information about purchasing it on video or DVD. Thanks very much.

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I am new to this site actually because of Paper Clips. I just watched the film on HBO. I just wanted to thank you and everyone else that was included in this phenominal film. You truly do deserve much honor as well as a standing ovation. Whatever part you personally had in the project itself, as well as the film, to me is a big part in what made this film whole and complete. I have read through some of these threads, that Blockbuster has pulled the film due to editing purposes. I fully intend on buying it when it is re-released.

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This is actually the second movie being shown at a local film festival (the first one, show today, January 7, was Capote). I haven't heard of this one until now, and I can't wait to see it. I want to know, however, why Blockbuster pulled it from their shelves (not like it will matter to me, I'll be seeing an original theatrical print). I mean, the movie is rated G, what's in it that's so bad that Blockbuster has to edit it?

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[deleted]

[deleted]

There were hardly any persecuted but blacks were indeed persecuted during the Holocaust, not nearly as many were as Jews, Homosexuals, and other minorities. The number was extremely small since there wasn't a large population in Europe at that time but there were some persecuted. I'm sorry I don't have the source where I got it from at the moment.

Yes I DO know about the Holocaust and nazi Germany.


"You may one of those belivers that just blindly follow whatever you are told without even knowing the truth."

What's that supposed to mean? Are you one of those people who try and claim the Holocaust never happened?

"Where's the sherbert, mother?"
"It's there, beneath the layer of protective ice..."

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If you watch it again, you may notice that near the end of the film, the principal said they decided to place 11 million paperclips in the cattle car, for exactly the reason you mention.

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In the film, they fill up a cattle car that had been used to transport the victims to the camps. When it came time to fill the car, they made a point of including paperclips to represent the homosexuals, the gypsies, and other groups that had been exterminated during the holocaust. They didn't just honor those of the Jewish Faith, but the other groups as well. You have to listen for the moment when they talk about it, but it is there....

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At the end of the documentary I think the kids say that they DO add 11 million clips to the train.. 6 million for the Jews and 5 million for the homosexuals, catholics, and gypsies and whomever else the Nazis did not tolerate. They had received over 39 million clips total and that is why they added the larger number. This movie was great and I cried the whole time watching it. My husband is jewish and his family had been affected by the hatred and intolerance. What was so moving about this film was that the children lived in a very rural area and it is said that they only lived with 5 black kids and 2 hispanics and they admitted that when they see people different from them, they have no clue how to act around them. This honesty is a classic example of how we can teach the young how not to hate and show how everyone will one day be equal.

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They did put 11,000,000 paper clips in the railcar, for exactly the reason you suggest.

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I also am glad that they put up the 11 million, but then I have to wonder -- why does the number matter so much? They took messages and love and passion from people all over the world, and they turned them into one great big huge message about love and tolerance and working to stop the hatred. I have walked the death camps and seen the museums and the monuments and all of it, and now I know why - these kids learned a lesson they could not have learned any other way. The number stopped mattering. That these kids will teach their children this lesson is what matters today.

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True, they should of made it 11 million instead of 6 million, but it was also to show what a big number like that was like. It gave out a beautiful message of tolerance. I almost started to cry a bit too. >_>;;

Back in October 2004, my high school in Maryland did a special showing of it since Elliot Berlin was a alumni from our school (Walter Johnson High School, for the curious people). ^_^ That's how I got to see it.

Call me the Random Critic of Evil-Doomness!

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if i remember correctly, i believe they did use 11 million. their goal was 6 million. at the end of the project they had 29 million, but they could only fit 11 million into the cattle car. does anyone else agree?

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[deleted]

they did have eleven million paper clips. six million for the jews and five million for the gypsies, handicapped, johovah's witnesses, handicapped and all other people known to have been killed under hitler's regime

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maybe now they should do one for the 3 million killed in S. Vietnam. We don't have good estimates for those killed in N. Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos so the paperclip thing would be difficult. How about paper clips to represent the millions of blacks who died under violence or neglect during slavery, or the thousands lynched in the south. I suggest a similar documentary where paperclips are collected to represent the thousands who died in Chile under US orders. How about the thousands who died in the US central american campaigns. How about a paper clip for every Iraki who has died during the second invasion of the Persian Gulf. Or paper clips for those who died in Somalia. How about paper clips for all of those exterminated in the Philipines under the direct orders of Roosevelt I to exterminate the population.
I applaud the attempts of North Americans to become more tolerant. Still, there is much work to be done. If paper clips is the strategy, perhaps they should be collected to remind us of the attrocities committed by this government, those which the North American people could have stopped, and not one which was (as tragic as it was) perpetrated by a foreign agent unanimously declared as an archenemy of the American dream. How about we collect paperclips for the indians who died during the TRail of Tears?
I suggest North Americans continue their resolve to achieve a state of tolerance and humanity so that the world may look to them with fraternity rather than fear. It would be much more significant if North Americans made a demonstration of sympathy towards their own victims and not those of a remote and unpopular tyrant.
Please, if your emotions are sincere, demonstrate you sympathy for those who are today oppressed under US guns throughout the world, from Colombia to Afghanistan.

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kobaincito:
Why do you believe that the acknowledgment of the suffering of one group of people somehow diminishes the injustices carried out against others?

Who are you to question the sincerity of people’s emotions?

If you are impassioned about the issues you state you should take up these causes instead of “suggesting” courses of action for others. The Paper Clips project is one example of peoples’ attempt to confront intolerance. It is not the only example. Many Americans, Jews and Gentiles, work everyday for causes they believe worthy. 700,000 people marched on Washington last weekend (mostly synagogue and church groups) to protest the genocide and oppression currently being perpetrated in Darfur in the Sudan. We have embarked on an action campaign in an attempt to make a difference.

It’s easy to sit in an ivory tower and keep score. Try getting in the game. And don’t diminish the attempt to teach tolerance by the people of Whitwell by insulting those who support their cause.

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[deleted]

Your perspective is very clear, and you are very uninformed.
Your opinion is based on fallacies. No one, anywhere, claims a monopoly on humanitarian grief, and that presumption is the basis of your opinion. Why does it bother you so that people stand up for what they believe? Or are they only allowed to stand up for what you believe? I give you an example of humanitarian efforts and you insult those efforts by classifying the attempt to fight injustice as "fashionable". Where do you get the right to decide which causes others find worthy? Are all of your causes Anti-American and anti-Semitic?

For the record, Holocaust museums and memorials in the U.S. are privately funded and exist because people deem them worthy. They are not built at the expense of memorials to other injustices. Anyone in the US who wants to erect a memorial can raise the money to do so. And they have: there are literally thousands of memorials and museums in existence in the US, built with private funds. They exist because people deem them necessary. This includes projects aimed at African Americans and Native Americans.

You talk a lot, "How about this and how about that?” What have you done for a cause? Spouting an uneducated, prejudiced opinion doesn’t count.

The ironic (and pathetic) thing here is that your argument for standing up for injustice is laden with hate and venom, which renders it devoid of credibility.

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Funny, i guess the US didnt murder more than 2 million people in Indochina. I am so stupid for asking for a memorial for all the people the US put into concentration camps, and all the people it forced out of their homes and all the people it killed.

So then i must be wrong when i claim that the US is hypocritical when it claims sorrow for those the germans murdered when it has murdered millions more.

Every year you tyrannical government kills and enslaves more people. For god's sakes they jus INVADED a country which had not in any way been a menace to its security. That means the US invasion of Irak and Afghanistan was an internaitonal crime. But i dont see american's crying for the people they killed.

And about my understanding of the subject, i ask you, please tell me where i was wrong so i can show you proof. I cannot stand being bothered by you petty people. Uneducated and blind, allowing your government to kill all those who claim indepenedence.

Peace, you sorry tool of tyranny.

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Please show me, anywhere in my posts, where I denied or argued any of the claims of injustice that you stated.
You continue to ask for a memorial and preach you should and they should, but what are you actually contributing? It’s so easy to sit back and read the internet and then accuse and criticize and deny that any Americans are doing anything positive in the US and the world. “Americans suck and the rest of the world are its victims.” Sure, it’s much easier to hate when everything is reduced to us versus them. A realistic and mature perspective would tell you that life is not that black and white.

Like many in the world who subscribe to Anti-American propaganda you seem to be unwilling to accept that many individuals in America do rise up to fight injustice. When faced with that fact all you can do is criticize the battles they choose to fight. To totally negate the activism of Americans in their attempt to affect change because you don’t agree with the American government is prejudice at its worse. Americans have the luxury of having the right to criticize and protest their own government and its leaders, and it’s a right that many of us take very seriously. We don’t believe our government is without fault. But many of us don’t just stand on the sidelines and criticize, reveling in victimization.

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1. There are many americans in the frontline against imperialism. Their few but meaningful victories should be recognized.
2. It is not my intention to create an Anti-American perspective, i would rather do the opposite. By demonstrating the hypocrisy of the establishment i would like to waken up the dormant strength of the American Democratic spirit. In better words, i would like to bring to light that the ideas which are embraced by the North American public are in fact opposite to those of their government. Hereby asking for justice to be brought forth by the North American public unto their government, and therefore unto its victims worldwide.
3. I may have given you the wrong impression. I passionately agree with activism and any showing of empathy on the part of the North American people. Holocaust remembrance today is a different type of action than what it might have been 40 years ago. Today, the establishment has wholly made incorporated the Holocaust as a major element of its propaganda system. It is used to justify the conquest of the middle east and silence dissent. Anyone who dares topple the Holocaust from its steeple of horror is considered either an anti-semite or a self hating jew. Even though larger holocausts have taken place in recent history and despite of their relative proximity to North American hands, other genocides are ignored, neglected in the shadow of Hitler's "Final Solution". When the horrible actions comitted by the US Gov. and allies in their quest for domination of the world's markets are ignored by the media and the education system, and those comitted by the official enemy are tirelessly condemned, we become dangerously close to the society depicted in Orwell's 1984. In the novel, crowds gather in front of screens showing the face of rebel leader Goldstein, at whom jeers and condemnations are directed. The anger of the people in the novel serves as a means to manipulate them into forgetting the crimes of their own government agaisnt them and against the people of the world.
I believe now that my mention of Vietnam, Japan, Korea, Irak, Iran, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Chile, Argentina, Colombia, Congo and hundred of other countries twice and thrice invaded by North Americans should stand not as a complaint or a lamentation but as a favor from me to you. Wake up from the slumber of propaganda or face the realities of violent comfrontation which your government is setting up in the world. When an antagonized international community rebels against US hegemony, no chanting of antisemitism will save your country. Furthermore, it is your responsibility to become aware of the responsabilities of being part of the constituency of a government which is in factual control of a great part of the world. You need to change US policy, because when you face the world, you will be alone, the government will not only not defend you, it will send you and your children to fight its dirty wars.

4. "Americans have the luxury of having the right to criticize and protest their own government and its leaders, and it’s a right that many of us take very seriously"

Amen. I recomend that if you are interested in the conflict between free speech and propaganda, you should check out the Harvard debate created by a paper on Israeli lobby and how it affects foreign policy against public opinion. It has been called anti-semitic by the likes of Prof. Dershowitz, but the truth is that Hebrew dogma is a testament of opposition to the criminal violence enacted by the US Gov. and its proxy Israel.

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Please, let this be. The project was, and is, powerful and moving and worthwhile.
Show some tolerance.
Yes, there are many, many others who should be honored for their loss and suffering in events that do not get the attention of the Holocaust. Here is something to consider: many Americans have (even if only a little) some German background/ancestry. It makes us pause a bit, being aware that such a highly-cultured and sophisticated people (Germans) could be involved in this.
No group is innocent of atrosities to other human beings.
We must all be very careful.
This Holocaust ended 60 years ago. Perhaps it will take some more time before the museums, memorials, and school projects will be dedicated to more recent victims.
Please. Let this be.

"Don't argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference."

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"No group is innocent of the atrosities to other human beings"

Some groups are more innocent than others. The SPanish comitted a horrible genocide against the indigenous peoples of the Caribbean. The Black Legend managed to force the Spanish monarchy into action and Isabella claimed indigenous people under her protection. It did not stop the oppression of whites on natives but it did protect them from the systematized legalized genocide which took place in the US.
There are other examples of comparable invasive actions from the time of old empires. Today this attrocities are carried out overwhelmingly by the US and its allies. So i find it hippocritical to obsess over a German genocide when we know of plenty similar actions taken by the US and its allies. It is true that no particular event was quite so horrible as the Holocaust, but it is my way of thinking that while holocausts are terrible actions, the long range enslavement, mistreatment and humiliation of populations is much worst. A genocide is death, it is murder and it should be punished. But it should be punished when enemies do it as well as when allies do it. Andrew Jackson carried out his own little genocide, but he was not hung. Leopold II carried out a massive (8-10 M dead) in COngo with the aid of US government, which legalized the genocidal Congo Free State for their own profit. Yet as i said, it isnt genocide that should worry North Americans, as the US gov is much too crafty to allow such bad P.R., rather the enslavement and humiliation of whole subyugated populations should be the worry of peace seeking North Americans.

I suggest you look at US actions in Latin America. Every time the US looses a war it kills thousands in Latin America. While i hope the Iraki people destroy the imperialist forces which today oppress them, i am afraid for the health of my continent that upon defeat, the US will turn its torturing gaze unto us.

PEACE

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Every time the US looses a war it kills thousands in Latin America.

This is an asinine statement based on prejudice that further exposes you as an idiot. Do you think you're the first person to discover historical injustices? Well, thank G-d you're there to set the rest of the world straight. Give me a break.
Your attitude and misinformation are the result of the acceptance of years of anti-American propaganda. You suggest nothing to improve any of the so-called injustices about which you whine. Enough already. Go do something positive or crawl under a bed and hide. Either way you're spouting your nonsense on an American owned discussion board.
Get lost.

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Whine? No, no. You whine. You whine about about the horrors of being beaten in Indochina. All your bombs couldn't help you invade a tiny country defended by an indigenous population. You whine about Irak, it's so hard to be a thief, isn't it? You whine about Latin America being controlled by its population. And then you kill thousands in Chile and NIcaragua. I have a suggestion to fix it all. Yankee stay the *beep* out of my country. All you bring is trash. Trashy food, trashy fashion, trashy films. Stay in the land you have already stolen from MExico and from the NAtives.

Besides, what is your point? is it not true that the US is so cowardly that it bombs poor indigenous people to prove its might. The might of a woman beater i shall say. The might of a bully. The might of trash. I am not a bigot, but i cannot help but feel disgust for all your nation until official apologies and reparations are provided for every nation you have bullied. For all you have killed, for your tampering in our economies, for your idiocy.
And to top it all off you imbeciles have the audacity to build a wall in the middle of Mexica territory and say spiks are not allowed. You do not know what is coming to you. Your nation will be brouht down by the might of the just. Latin Americans will unite and take back was is ours, all the land between the Patagonia and California. We will oust all of you thieves, we will oust you off of your colonies.

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Your nation will be brought down by the might of the just. Latin Americans will unite and take back was is ours, all the land between the Patagonia and California.

Do you do stand-up comedy too?
Brought down by whom? Countries that can't even control their own crime and drug cartels? I don't think so. You are truly laughable. The more you post the more your idiocy abounds.

Jealously obliviously runs through your comments. (Just can't stay off a United States discussion board can you?) If you want to be an American so badly, apply for a visa and citizenship. Maybe we'll have you, but probably not (your criminal record is a definite obstacle). Otherwise, find a South American DB to post on and spare the rest of the world your bigotry.

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"No one, anywhere, claims a monopoly on humanitarian grief, and that presumption is the basis of your opinion."

I dont know about that dudesky you were just talking to but MY presumption is based on not being able to pee in the restroom without hearing OH NO THE POOR JEWS. I got news for ya bubba, you get killed because you are handicapped or a Gypsy its all the same. Im sorry if your average human doesnt understand that a murder is a murder is a murder but come on!! I was always taught the Holocaust was the killing of all civilians not just the Jews. You tell me mister.

holocaust

One entry found for holocaust.
Main Entry: ho·lo·caust
Pronunciation: 'hO-l&-"kost, 'hä- also -"käst or 'ho-l&-kost
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin holocaustum, from Greek holokauston, from neuter of holokaustos burnt whole, from hol- + kaustos burnt, from kaiein to burn -- more at CAUSTIC
1 : a sacrifice consumed by fire
2 : a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire <a nuclear holocaust>
3 a often capitalized : THE MASS SLAUGHTER OF EUROPEAN CIVILIANS AND ESPECIALLY THE JEWS BY THE NAZIS DURING WWII -- usually used with the b : a mass slaughter of people; especially : GENOCIDE

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/holocaust

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Thank you for stating my feelings in a more condensed and rational response.

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Most Americans love our country because we are a melting pot, not despite it.



Sure we have racial and cultural divides, however, we also open our arms to more that any other country.

I am tired of the North America bashing.

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