MovieChat Forums > A Day Without a Mexican (2004) Discussion > illegal immigrants? look in the mirror

illegal immigrants? look in the mirror


so here is what i think is funny... everyone is so concerned about illegal immigrants... but i want you to think back a few hundred years ago. did you ever hear about the white man sailing his ships across the sea to the new world. well it wasn't exactly the new world and they didn't exactly discover it. there were already hundreds of people living here, the native american or indians. but you know what, that didn't stop the white people did it. they moved right in, set up towns, cities, states and eventually a nation. but where are the native americans? they are living on reservations with hardly any help from the government.

do you really think that the white men went to the natives and asked for citizenship? or did they ask if they could move into there land... NO!!!

but somehow... this land became the land of the white man and he "owns" it now. and he gets to decide who can and cannot live here. what gives him that right? why does he think he can just come in and start setting up the rules?

if you look at it logically... anglos, white people were the original illegal immigrants to this country!

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Makes sense, but you're going to get bashed here by all the racists.

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yeah i know... i'm surprised that they haven't started yet... but when you are a liberal, you learn to live with that kind of thing...

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so here is what i think is funny... everyone is so concerned about illegal immigrants... but i want you to think back a few hundred years ago. did you ever hear about the white man sailing his ships across the sea to the new world. well it wasn't exactly the new world and they didn't exactly discover it. there were already hundreds of people living here, the native american or indians. but you know what, that didn't stop the white people did it. they moved right in, set up towns, cities, states and eventually a nation. but where are the native americans? they are living on reservations with hardly any help from the government.

do you really think that the white men went to the natives and asked for citizenship? or did they ask if they could move into there land... NO!!!

but somehow... this land became the land of the white man and he "owns" it now. and he gets to decide who can and cannot live here. what gives him that right? why does he think he can just come in and start setting up the rules?

if you look at it logically... anglos, white people were the original illegal immigrants to this country!




What's even funnier is that todays Mexicans are the descendants of some of those Natives. They're taken back what was brutally, unfairly, and (I'm sure) painfully taken from them.

Amen.

You know, I was getting ready to start a post like this one. I'm glad that I came across this.

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To the OP...

Typical two-faced liberal rant. You go bashing everyone who doesn't agree with your opinions and ideals and then cry foul (or racism) when someone calls you out on it. Always the victims you are.

The US is turning into a 3rd world country because of people like you. Hope you enjoy it when gangs and drug cartels rule the government like just about every other place south of the border. Bet you'll feel pretty stupid then.

You people live in some fantasy world. Why the hell do you think everyone wants to come here anyway? You are so hell bent on attacking the white man when you don't even realize that just about everything you have and take for granted is from and/or because of the white man.

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Why is it so hard to defend borders? As a libertarian sympathizer (I don't go quite all the way and this is a disagreement with most), I don't know why it's so hard for liberals to accept the fact that the state has a right to manage immigration. The knee-jerk reaction is to label conservative supporters as racist. You know what? That might be true. But it doesn't delegitimize the point that we should monitor traffic between our borders for safety concerns. You can't have people passing through undocumented; it's just not practical.

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I always love how people compare illegal immigrants to the European's arrival in the New World in the 1492-1600 period. The fact of the matter is that colonization was done legally by the laws that existed at the time. This ignores the fact that European diseases spread devastated the Native American cultures to the point many were on the verge collapse some times before they even saw their first 'white man'.

You cannot judge the actions of Columbus, De Leon, Cortez, or any of the rest by today's standards, and what they did as far as acquiring land for the rulers backing them was totally legal. That is the sad fact of it. Even the Africans kidnapped from their native lands and brought to the New World as slaves was a legal practice when it was done.

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Yes, it was legal to give the natives blankets with smallpox.It was also legal for the white man to kill more than half of the buffalo population, the source of food to the inidans. It was also legal for the white man to drive natives away from their land and it was legal to kill any that refused. Laws that say that these actions were legal do not mean that they don't violate human rights.

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Just because something is made legal doesn't make it right. And by whose standards?? If someone who makes the laws is the one doing something not so great then of course the laws aren't going to be that great. Also, these weren't laws of the natives so why should they have to follow them.

OK, here's a simplified example of what you just said.

So I'm a big rich powerful person and I've very "advanced" and "educated." You and your family are not as "advanced" and "educated." You are also darker then me and speak another language. I'm sailing and then I come across you and your family who live on a very beautiful piece of land. I like the land. I have weapons, you don't. Where I'm from, it's OK for me to use my weapons to take the land from you and/or trick you into believing that I'm a god and that you should give me your land and/or trick you in some other way shape or from. Even though you're not from where I'm from and you don't have the same laws as I do and you might not even understand my laws, I make you follow them anyway since I'm stronger then you. I also try to enslave you but that doesn't work because your bodies aren't used to that kind of labor so many of you die. Those of you who don't die from that die from the diseases that I've brought with me and my family.

So after I'm done destroying your family I'm sailing again and I come across a family that even darker then you and *gasp,* they're immune to my diseses and used to hard labor. So instead to make them into slaves and their other family members (sadly) unwillingly, let me because they don't like that side of the family....

You should know where I'm going with this and I don't really feel like going any farther right now so I'll leave it there. But do you get my point?

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so here are a few things i have noticed from reading the messages...

1. apparently "white man" is of a higher intellengence than anyone else. because someone (i forgot to look at who said it) claims that the white men were to smart to live on a tiny tract of land. i believe that there are other races and other "colors" that were also too intellegent to live on tiny areas of land... maybe you should rethink phrases like "too intellegent"

2. you are quite correct, it was "legal" in a sense. there were no laws here that said white men couldn't come in. but does that make it fair? absolutly not! just because someone is white does not give them the ultimate, supreme, will of god power to do what he wants. i am sick and tired of white people thinking that they can do everything, just because they are white. (in case this sounds racist or judgemental, i am white, but i still hold these feelings)

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1-20-09 The End of An Error
Proud Liberal Democrat
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Again people don't get it. What the Europeans did in the 1492-1600 period was legal. Of course since they were the ones setting the rules is wasn't fair but even today there are unfair laws on the books. As for the laws that were about that time the Treaty at Tordesillas (1494) comes to mind for a start.

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well said. I'm white and I'm tired of the ignorance.

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no matter what you want to say about the subject, just look at what happens when you do have a liberal immigration policy, much like the Native American did - loss of culture, language, mores, traditions, and nearly and ENTIRE RACE OF PEOPLE!

no matter what you think of what the Euros did, do they deserve to lose all they have built and accomplished? Lets learn from the past and protect ourselves as a nation!

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i laugh when people say that columbus and cortez were okay when they were spreading diseases and enslaving people because they were just acting in accordance with the laws of their times.

gee, that was adolph eichmann's defense, too.

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Ok. First of all, I hate you. But not as much as I hate your opinion, I can't really hate you for being raised to hate darker people but I will anyway.

All you white supremacists are worried about having your blood washed down by these apparantly inferior, dark skinned people. Tell me, if the white race becomes no more while the "dark" race carries on to live, doesn't that make them more superior than you? Also if white people are superior and more intelligent, why wouldn't those traits pass onto non-white children? Or is your superiority too good for human genetics?

If people like you did colonise another planet or cleanse this planet of anyone with dark skin, what would you do? Start killing each other because some aren't as white as the others? We're all humans, white or not. We all kill each other, but you only realise or care when someone of another nationality kills someone of yours. Tell me, do you believe that a White rapist or murderer is superior to a scientist or a doctor of another colour?

Humans started on this planet and we'll die on this planet thanks to people like you. Moan about humanity's problems, not that of the "darkies".

By the way I am white, before you fling any racism at me, or am I not white enough, or a race traitor?

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and remember Rome wasn't destroyed in a day either
it was destroyed from the inside because the slaves brought with them Christianity and other alien ideas which were in direct opposition to those who created the vast empire with all of its amazing accomplishments in the fields of technology, science and government (not because of depravity or invading Germans)

I'll join you on Mars (though I think 500 years would be the soonest possibility!)

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The Europeans came here to conquer the land. Which they did.

Illegals supposedly are not here to do that according to their supporters.

So which way is it?

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First of all, american indians were immigrants themselves. They immmigrated from Asia through the Bering Strait in Alaska (at least that's a well-documented theory.) Secondly, vikings were in Canada long before the pilgrims or the indians (again, depending on which book you read). But still, accepting the commonly accepted "fact" that american indians are "native americans" even though there was no "america" before the english declared it "america."

Anyway, so assuming these peaceful native americans were just sitting around smoking the peace pipe when a bunch of mean (no doubt republican) white people came over, tricked these noble savages into giving up their land for a few blankets laden with small pox, or booze, or maybe just murdered them so they could take their land. Assuming all that - the indians had no concept of land ownership. The europeans did - so they took advantage of people who were effectively cave people in most senses of the word. Now that may not have been a very nice thing to do, but the world doesn't run on "nice" and "fair." Those terms are subjective and quite relative to who you're talking about. Why do you think the hippies left the communes to work on wall street?

Unfortunately this mickey mouse history lesson is going to have to work on you children until you can learn to read an actual history book. You should also know that slavery didn't quite work like that either. By and large slaves were bought - yes, that's right, most of your slave ships contained slaves that had been slaves all their lives, sold by non-slave africans. I'm not saying there wasn't a single slave kidnapped by a mean white man, but to say the whole slave trade worked like that, again, is only showing your ignorance. And yet again, the europeans took advantage of a "not-nice" market that was very legal. In fact it was so legal that it wasn't unheard of for a free black person to own a slave or two!

And last - how does all this relate to illegal immigrants? Not too much actually. America as a country was designed by europeans - yes, some of the labor was done by africans and even the forgotten chinese, and maybe the american indian wondered why he didn't think of it first as his people died out on reservations. Who knows? What's important now is that it's taken over 200 years to become what america is today, and lots of people are responsible for what it is, good or bad. What the illegals are doing now is going into a well-established country (not exactly what the europeans did) and of course opinions will vary on what happens next. But historically, it's stupid to think of what an illegal does today is the same as what the europeans did when they formed america.

If a man builds a house, is he the same as the man who comes in uninvited and gets a free drink of water from his tap? What if that uninvited man fills up several jugs with water so he can bring them back to his family? Maybe the house builder should share his water, but does he have to? Food for thought - I know that's a stretch, but it's all I could think of.

The american white apologist really needs to learn more about european history before his ignorance makes him look like an even stupider american.

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Interesting, can you explain on what basis would you establish right and wrong ?

When does a land belong to a people ?

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In any case, fear not, if you include all physically white people, America still has an overwhelming white majority.

Even if you don't and exclude white Hispanics, Middle Easterners, etc, whites not only are still a majority but are also the largest group by far. More importantly, whites dominate most of or even all of the corridors of power in America.

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And, in spite of the talk show garbage, most intermarriage in America is white/Hispanic (1.4 million) followed by white/Asian (41% of American born Asian women are married to a white man) and then white/Native American. And, let's not forget white/Middle Eastern or white/East Indian. And, the children of these, for the most part, will be white (or pretty close).

More importantly, a great many Hispanics and Asians and Christian Middle Easterners (I believe most M.E.'s here are Christian not Moslem) identify closely with mainstream America; not just the liberal part but also the conservative part. Up to 30%+ of Hispanics and 40%+ of Asians vote with conservative white America.

I don't think whiteness is over just yet.

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Kennewick Man's dating was decided by Radio Carbon dating, a method so inaccurate it's not even funny. Radio-Carbon 14 dating methods are based upon the fact that the isotope degrades at a constant rate over time.
However, it only degrades at that same constant rate if atmospheric conditions remain the same which we all know never do. In other words, Radio Carbon 14 dating methods cannot yield consistently accurate results beyond four to six thousand years.Am I supposed to believe these stupid Radio Carbon dating procedures when it is widely known that it is highly inaccurate. Scientific method requires that duplication of all conditions must be made in order to prove the results of any experiment. Since we cannot know what atmospheric conditions might have been like prior, scientists cannot state with any certainty the age of any ancient artifact.I don't know how many times archaeologists have tried to use Radio Carbon dating to disprove the contents of the Bible and attempt to shove the theory of Human Evolution down our throats. Radio Carbon dating is BS, highly overrated, and a sad tool yet to be perfected whose sole intention is to glorify human Evolution and stomp the BIBLE. As a Christian, I refuse to believe Radio Carbon dating, it is neither accurate nor dependable.

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This is interesting assertion against "Radio-Carbon 14 dating methods" and a welcome one.

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Yea and thats why the native Americans should have had a better illegal immigration policy.So we need to learn from their mistakes. Just look at Mexico. Why would we want millions to come here and turn it into second Mexico.How about they fix their own *beep*





Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.

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So, Afro? What's wrong with white culture?
Was I attacking "white" culture ? How does this address my question ?

I said, "When does a land belong to a people ? " Or, how do you decide ownership ?

Blacks always hate it and whine about it, yet I don't hear those blacks leaving the US.
Obviously, you want to argue with a militant. I'm just questioning white paranoia over "losing" "their" nation. America is and will be predominantly "white" in the years to come.

Let me ask you, do you believe white colonists should vacate Africa ? It's funny to me that the people who say "go back to Africa" are [in my view] often the same people who wanted to keep Africa under white colonial rule.

They still want whites to give them money, to live in nice white neighborhoods, to sleep with white women, etc...and yet they hate whites. Odd, if not hypocritical, don't you think?
How does a couple of rich sports stars marrying a white trophy wife translate into "they" [all] want "to sleep with white women" ?

You do know that even white democrats in their day were mean and 'racist' to nonwhites, yes?
When conservatives say this, I wonder do they think people are ignorant or are they ignorant ??? However, the dominant elements of the Democrats of the 1800's were not the same as those today. Different coalitions dominated both party's back then.

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Let's keep in mind, this is an arguement on legality, not race. If anyone DOES bring up race, whether it be in support or against my arguement, then I always have to leave the arguement as it becomes pointless.

I consider my political views to be conservative (I'm riding a fine line between the Republican party and the Libertarian party). Also, my wife is first-generation American with parents from different countries (Spain and El Salvador). I felt it would make sense to lay that info on the table.

1. I don't believe it's bad for a country to moderate its borders. Just about every country moderates their borders, and why should America be an exception? America doesn't even close the door on immigrants--the door is always open, it's just a matter of getting in line with everyone and being patient.

2. I get why immigrants come here, and I even understand why they might do it illegally. Take Mexico for example: I've been there and it is a beautiful country with great people...but I would never live there. Why? Because their government is so fx*ked up. They have the recourses to adapt to a system that allows the people to thrive, but they wouldn't do it and it's hurting the people instead. America is conveniently right there so they come here to make things better. Totally understandable. Nonetheless, the problem then becomes "are they giving back to the country they are benefitting from?" Unfortunately, a large chunk of illegal immigrants are not.

3. "But the pilgrims took from the Native Americans, so why can't immigrants just come here and do what they need to do? This isn't really your country if you think about it!" The method of migrating to a new country was very different years ago--paper work wasn't needed, the concept of settlers existed and government was extremely limited. Unfortunately, the entire planet has made things complicated--not just America. It has become a standard for most many countries, not even specifically first world countries.

Government has made Indian tribes wards of our state. Government managers their land, provides their healthcare, their schools, gives food stamps, pays for housing, child-care and even barriel assistence. How do the reservations look? They're in poverty and only 1 in 4 is employed. They have the highest unemployment rate and the lowest life expectancy of any group in the country--but they still have the highest amount of government subsidies. But then you have certain Indian tribes (like the Lumbee tribe) who aren't recognized as sovereign, receive NO government subsidies and do incredibly well economically (no casinos).

So here's the thing; on an economic level, I'm ok with immigrants coming here, even if it's not 100% legit so long as government stops with hand-outs. There are 11.2 million illegal immigrants in this country. 71% of illegal immigrants are on welfare--and many of them stay on welfare. It is not only going to keep them in a cycle of poverty, but it's going to drag the country down with them. What if 11.2 million illegal immigrants didn't get government hand-outs? I think it would not only benefit them, but it would benefit the economy.

4. What about crime? 25%-30% of federal prisons are made up of illegal immigrants, and the majority of them are in their for drug dealing, gang activity, etc. etc. So to argue why guarding the border so aggressively is also important is because a large number of immigrants, who by definition aren't supposed to be here, have caused crime.

Ultimately, I do believe big government plays a big part in why the country is going down the drain, but I also don't think there is reason to dismiss the arguement against amnesty with "racism" or "classism." Yes, there are racists and people who descriminate over class too, but put those things aside keep in mind that an arguement is still valid against amnesty.

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