MovieChat Forums > Vozvrashchenie (2003) Discussion > 'The Return does not have a full-filling...

'The Return does not have a full-filling end'


*SPOILERS* WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE END OF THE FILM - I do not, personally, understand why people all over message boards are claiming that the Return has an incomplete ending. All the ending, for me, was in the one piece of dialogue in which the son, who was at first sceptical of the father, calls him 'papa' as his body sinks into the lake. After this we are numb from a very exciting and disturbing end to a complicated relationship made even more complex. We are left in a state as the boys are, the feeling as if we've come to an abrupt ending, shock, sadness and a terrible loss of a man and this feeling of loss of an important man, along with the boy, we did not understand before his passing. Please, messagers, reconsider the ending in The Return on THIS message board; I AM KEEN FOR A DISCUSSION!

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people all over message boards are claiming that the Return has an incomplete ending
Never saw people say/write it even once. Can you point your finger?
Plus: it's strange that no one, or almost no one, writes about the very last scene where the brothers see their father has disappeared from the photo.

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What photo is that? Is it a specific photograph?



"I like being kept in the dark. Like mushrooms: Keep 'em in the dark and feed 'em sh_t."

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Mmm? The photo that the brothers find in the family album at the beginning.

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Is it shown again in the end of the movie? If it is I never noticed it.




"I like being kept in the dark. Like mushrooms: Keep 'em in the dark and feed 'em sh_t."

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You're not the only one I presume.

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The father does not disappear from the photograph, they find a photo in the car, it is a different photo. I think it was just to show that the father has never forgotten his family. Now the significance of the other photographs is that even after spending that time with their dad, they still only have that one photograph they had at the beginning.

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Syerov is completely right. I just saw the photos in the movie, and they are not the same. The characters are in the same place in both fotos, but is two diferents photos.

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The Father is very much there in the first photo but has suddenly disappeared from the second photo, which, apparently, was clicked at the same place. Maybe, it was there that 'The Father' first disappeared. He's happy with his kids in the pics showing that he used to be normal man before he went into that 10 year exile.

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[deleted]

It is sort of an optical illusion, though. For an instant, I also thought it was the same picture with the father disappeared out of it. Syerov is absolutely right, but I think it is completely valid to think that the hint of him disappeared - like all of a sudden we entered a world where he never existed at all - is an intentional mind game played by the director. It's a lot like a bad PTSD dream.

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The two photos are different photos. Since this is not a ghost story, it probably is that the father took the photo you see in the car. And someone else (family friend or GRANNY) took the photo with the entire family in it. But...this is NOT a ghost story.

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For me, the movie effectively ends when the father dies or just after that. The rest is just a slow decline - a very satisfying decline, I might add, of the boys coming to terms with reality. So I like the ending a lot. It's a worthy finish to the great movie.

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I need help. Could someone explain their thoughts on the ending, specifically the photograph in which their father has disappeared from (and why) as well as why the film ends with the still images/photographs. What do they mean? Is the father in any of them?

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I agree with Saluton. How come you don't hear anything about that? I personally believe that Andrei is the father-figure himself. The father is a symbol for the growing up of Andrei.

On the slideshow you'll only see pictures of Ivan and Andrei, while the trip was mainly about getting to know their father. On the slideshow you'll see the boys behind the steering wheel, not the father.

I also believe the sonken boat(,box and father) is a symbol for all the secrets and the things you'll never get to know.

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Well, the father does appear in the slideshow, too, but I also think he was their illusion.

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Interesting analyze, OP




"I like being kept in the dark. Like mushrooms: Keep 'em in the dark and feed 'em sh_t."

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Your post is quite old but I still like to write about my ideas about the end. I just saw this film.

This film has great ending that fits to the film. It is true that the younger son admits that the man was really his father in the end, but that isn't the whole picture. The photos that they took on a trip reveal the meaning. These boys had learnt to live without their absent father, trusting each other. They never took any pictures of their father, just each other. Father's return was too little too late. The last pictures were from their past, where the boys were young and the father was still there. But the fact that he left his kids, killed him for them. The older son had many idolized dreams about his father but this image was finally shattered. Their father may have died on their trip, but he was gone since the day he left his family.

It might be that father had been in prison and his loot was buried in the island, but this we will never know.

Father tried to teach his sons how to be a man, but because he really wasn't their father anymore, this wouldn't work. They had learnt to grow by themselves. Maybe somewhat weaker than the father's view of ideal manhood but nevertheless, they did it on their own.

If only that man from the last picture would have stayed with his family...


"zoom back camera"

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Great summary gavrilo!

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I don't see how Vozvrashchenie could have ended any differently than it did. It's not as if the father could come back from the dead, or something. Now the boys are on their own -- which is the fact of life the man had been trying (brutally, at times) to prepare them for throughout the film.



There, daddy, do I get a gold star?

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Americans in general do not tend to appreciate the ambiguous or "unfulfilling" endings found in many foreign movies. We tend to like our movies to come in neat little packages with crystal-clear morals and messages. I love movies like this one just because it avoids the "complete" ending that so many movie viewers seem to want or need.

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Sadly, that's very true. The American audience is a passive one, and does not often appreciate films where their direct participation is required. Unfortunately for them (us), great art is a two-way street.

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Americans in general do not tend to appreciate the ambiguous or "unfulfilling" endings found in many foreign movies.


Yeah, and you're fulla *beep* too.

And, yes I know this is an old post....

I don't love her.. She kicked me in the face!!

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I think this film has one of the most complete endings when it comes to the two main characters: Ivan & Andrei.

At the beginning of the film, Ivan is afraid of heights and he can't jump. Andrei is the one who shows off and calls his brother a chicken. But when the real test comes by the reappearance of the father, it is Ivan who is the stronger kid and Andrei who acts like a chicken.

The father wants to teach them how to be men. And by the end of the film, they both grow up. Their character arcs are complete. Ivan is ready to jump from the high tower, even if its not into the water. He's ready to do it and we can tell he is ready to do it. After the father dies, he asks his brother how are they going to take him to the boat, and Andrei uses the father's words, "With your hands!" and this tells it all. He also learned the lesson.

The death of the father is a powerful symbolic image of his absence indeed. Only when he died, did Ivan call him "Papa" and he meant it. Because he needed the father. He just didn't want the version that appears every 12 years and deals with the kids the way it did.

Other backstory elements are revealed throughout the film. We know the mother and father are not on good terms because they don't really communicate when they sleep. It's not like she's celebrating his return. She's actually nervous and we see her smoking while telling the kids that their dad is back.

The father tells the kids during the journey that their mother asked him to come spend some time with them (which pisses Vanya off). And at one other point he says he doesn't want to eat fish because he's had too much fish. My version of the fathers story is that he's in the navy and he left the family or he works in something like special navy forces and he has to stay away from his family for his job. The way he "disciplines" his kids shows that he is a military man. He's not just a normal father. Even the way he organizes the way they row the boat. It tells us that this man has been the leader of a ship before. Vanya at one point says he thought he was a pilot. Maybe he's a captain.

This is a real fast trial to round up the story and character elements, to say that the ending is more than complete. My 2 cents :)


People of Few Words are the Best People

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@niemetany1--

Are you convinced the father is the boy's real father? There's as much reason to doubt it as to believe it, I think.

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I am sure he is their father. His character also needs acceptance from his sons as much as they are looking for some love & "fatherhood" from him. But he doesn't know how to raise kids and he suddenly finds himself with two teen age boys.

People of Few Words are the Best People

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@niemetany1--

"The Return" is my favorite dramatic film of the last decade and one of my top ten favorite films of all time. I don't believe in what can be called extra-textual interpretation; in fact, I'm a formalist. (So I don't suggest lightly that the man might not be the boys' father.)

The reason I stress this in the various posts I've made on this movie, on these boards, is because in the final analysis, it doesn't matter whether he is or isn't. He is either their father, or he has been hired, cajoled, or coerced into pretending he is. Concentrating on him as the husband to the woman who wants her sons to become men throws off a viewer's ability to appreciate the film's core message: that *someone* cared enough about these boys to want them to develop confidence as men. That is why I think the director does indeed allow doubts about the "Father's" actual paternity.

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Structure wise, it doesn't matter if the man is the real father or not. But analysis wise and character psychology wise, I think it matters a big deal. I didn't take your suggestion lightly at all :)
In fact, I chose The Return (also one of my favorite films of all time) for a case study in my Screenwriting Class to juxtapose story structure in the film against classic Hollywood Structure and have my students see what is the same and what differ, what works what doesn't work, etc... and I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. So after the film ended I asked them, do you think the father was there? do you think he is their real father? They all voted yes. I was hoping some would challenge that, but they took the visuals at face value and logically the man was there and he is the boys' father. His presence was just a catalyst but it was a necessity and we can see how his brief presence for few days changed their characters forever.

Dramatically speaking, there is no motivation for this man to be back to the house he was at 12 years before if he wasn't indeed the boys' father. He obviously is not interested in the woman and she isn't either. The grandmother who rarely appears in the film is also not happy with his return -altho her character is already very ambiguous. If we take the father's words at face value, he is there because the mother wanted him to spend time with the kids. If we don't, he doesn't have a reason to be there. Did she ask him to come because Vanya couldn't jump off the tower and she sensed his need for a father figure instead of his clinginess to her? I enjoy discussing character psychology in this film, mainly because most characters are damaged inside and none of them is really "evil" or bad per se. That is always fascinating for me. What thinks you? :)

People of Few Words are the Best People

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@niemetany1--

Upon second and subsequent viewings, the "father" does not seem quite as harsh--to an adult viewer, but this is not because he is not harsh. It's because we remember his conduct and demeanor from our first viewing, and the harshness has less impact, and we argue with ourselves that, well, yes, a "loving" man would abandon Ivan to the terror of the fishing pole in the rain. A loving man would turn over the oars to sons whose arms simply can't manage. A loving man, in other words, would turn them into little killers--which he does indeed.

While one can argue that this is EXACTLY the tragedy of The Return--i.e., that what this individual adult male perceives as fatherly love just misses the mark, one can also argue that his conduct, from first to last, is riddled with perfunctory concern and self-centered motives. Why, for example, does he wait THREE HOURS for Andrei to return to himself and hungry little Ivan about finding a restaurant? He has personal business in that city (it is where he meets with the men on the pier and makes the phone call). The viewer's fondness as well as reproach is for Andrei's carelessness, so much so that the effect on Ivan of the horrible wait, and the "father's" reasons for extending it, are overlooked.

I therefore believe that the very ambiguity about the father's identity is valid. I believe that the end of the film is both the result of accident and of design, set up by bewildered, justifiably frightened, and justifiably enraged, boys who "act out" their fear and rage. Dear Lord, but this is so very very symbolic and even more so very very existential!

Do we love a God who has been hired by our imaginations and forced to exist, and who very logically therefore both tortures us and has no choice but to let us kill Him, when we reach a state of suffering that can no longer be endured? Or do we love a God whose *seeming* cruelty is meant to bring us to a state of maturity and competence?

I do not know the answers to these questions. I believe that ambiguity about the paternity is what the French would call a "donnee" about this absolute, ageless masterpiece.

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I'm not saying this in any offensive way, and I respect your interpretation as that is a clear form of good art, where there is some form of clear intention behind it, but it can also become something different based on individual perspective. However what you just said is a huge pile of forcefully interpreted bullcrappolla. You re grasping at straws good sir, and again, I respect that *you* have this particular interpretation and it's quite a visionary one, but the film does not offer you this. It's like you interpret the Bible and see what you want.

Within the film's narrative and themes, the father has no reason to be false, he has a reason to be a metaphysical representation at the most, but not false.

I really dislike when pretentious people throw around Michael Bay and Hollywood if somebody expresses a differing opinion. Much like a bent steak knife, being different, doesn't always men being better or even as useful. And you people throwing around how other didn't get that something was profound simply for being different, is just as bad as people claiming it was not good enough, just because it wasn't explained.

There is no clear cut way of doing things, it always, *always* depends on the narrative and the point of the story. A full resolution and a story coming full-circle has just as much impact in one story, as an ambiguous, mult-choice, questions raising ending has on a different one, and you arguing one's merits over the other, regardless of which one, just shows horse glasses.

I will argue that for the audience not to know what was in the box was a bad script choice. I would also argue that hinting t the father's history, without ever concreting anything was a bad touch. This was very much a film about two children's perspectives, as an adult, you cannot have that perspective. You can't emphatically be put into their position, because you don't have their weight of history and expectation. All you can do is observe, and as an observer, you should be privy to more of the real facts, to have a better understanding of the father's behavior.

I understand that the children are not able to comprehend their fathers actions, but I, with my adult mind, should be able to. Not to judge him necessarily, not to make him good or bad, but to know and try to understand what he did.

I find that many times pretentious people look for depth where there is laziness or forced mystery just for the sake of controversy and propagating the myth.

What is in the box, has relevance for the story and for our rounded more complex and profound understanding of said story and character motivations... not showing it, or really, not even deciding on it, is cheap. And calling it out as it is, does not make the rest of it any less impressive or the emotional journey any less poignant... but the box either shouldn't have existed, or should have been opened underwater, where we as the audience can see its contents and have a closure to our catharsis. Otherwise it's literally just a Red Herring. Which it was.

The father hints at being more behind him than his behavior would suggest, when Ivan loses it and runs away, and the box should have been my reward, for diligently following and trying to understand his actions throughout. Not the kids... they don't need to know. Their growth and trauma as adults will come from not knowing, but as the observer, I should know.

Still, fantastic movie. It's very hard to believe that this was a debut, and I found it even more surprising when I saw that he didn't write it. I felt it was such a personal film, drawn from such an emotionally unique place that I find it amazing that it was the cooperation between writer and director... I really thought it was an uniquely personal piece.



!No IMDB idiot may respond to this.!

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I like your analysis. The great thing about this movie is it leaves the viewer to pull together their own conclusion about this movie. The father and the box are both a mystery. Here's my view ...

The father was involved in some kind of organized crime (hence his wad of bills at the beginning), perhaps as a thief, a smuggler, or a hitman. He was known and trusted by people around the port (hence the man refused to count his money when he purchased the boat motor).

He was on the boat that was shipwrecked many years ago on the island, perhaps from a severe storm. He had valuables in the ammo can (gold/jewels/sensitive information) that were taken from the ship and buried underneath the old building on the island. The father and other ship survivors didn't build the building or the tower - they were both much older than 12 years. The father used the remaining survivors to stay alive and then likely murdered them to keep his ammo can a secret. His only food to eat was fish while he was marooned on the island (hence his hating fish).

After a period of time, he was rescued, his identity was discovered, and he was thrown in prison for several years. Being the hard and selfish man he was, he wasn't the kind of person to write letters from prison to his family. The mother probably knew he was in prison, but his sons did not. After his release from prison, he went back to his old employer, received some front money (hence the wad of cash), and came back to his family after a 12 year absence.

The father cares for his sons to a degree, but he doesn't know how to be a father. He is very interested in retrieving the contents of the ammo can. His plan was to use the boys as cover for a fishing trip, retrieve the valuables in the ammo can, become a rich man, and make up for some lost time with his sons. But his plan goes awry, and his sons don't ever really know who he is - and any beneficial aspects of his relationship, knowledge, skills, and inheritance they could have received is lost forever.

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John Sigmon, that's a great theory that makes a lot of sense.

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well, my opinion in this discussion is that the "box" mening has been (wrongly )put apart. My view is that box contain a treasure he gathered for his family. This is why he came with his sons to the island. Probably his program went wrong and took too long to come back and his wife did not accepted his absence and children too. The final ending is that money make any sense now.

p.s. I can understand the critic about holliwood movies, let's not take too personal, but is way too much generalistic. Pity some great movies cannot find the public and some others hit the audience just because the "system"

regards

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Agreed that open loop movies are better at conveying a strong message but deliberate obfuscation is a big turn-off.

That truck that was shown when Ivan was left stranded at the bridge for being grumpy was a non-sequitur.
The picture missing the dad's face in the end was never explained.
The mystery box was never explained
Why 'The Father' would become emotional all of a sudden (during the climax scene when Ivan shows him the knife; during that grumpy Ivan bridge scene) is very ambiguous.
Whom is 'The Father' calling at the cafe and why did he change his plan suddenly has not been explained.
Why the mother agrees to send his two precious kids with someone who has suddenly appeared without any sign of protest; sending with a man who wouldn't even talk to her properly after a 14 year period is piercing.

Hence the "not having full-filling" debate

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[deleted]

well said Niametany...

excellent movie...

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I believe this is my first post on IMDB! ***SPOILER ALERT*** No, the film does not have a fulfilling ending, that was the main point (art imitating life), I thought. The boys learn a terrible lesson. Wherever Dad had been, whether he was a nice guy or not, whether he intended to stick around, whether he planned to make up for lost time, whether they'd resolve issues and forge a relationship- as troubling as those dangling threads [symbolized by the mysterious contents of the box] may have seemed- they were infinitely better than what actually occurred. (Or WERE they?) Bring down the curtain on EVERYTHING where Dad is concerned. What a shock. Whether they had dreamed of reunion, hated him, been crushed by his desertion, yearned for him, whatever, there would now NEVER be a "fulfilling ending", no-one would ever find out what the box contained.

However, there was ALSO the theme of the younger one's fear of life, of many things. He cried and told his mother at the beginning if she hadn't come he would've died. He threatens to kill himself by jumping off the tower- then, he sees death up close, for real, he's even partly responsible. Crash course in what death REALLY means. What an enigmatic film- note the pics of the brothers on the trip home, in some they're laughing, now seem free (dealt with something unspeakable, faced it with courage, were transformed by the experience?). Perhaps they're now FREE of the spectre of their father's desertion, and all the issues related thereto (achieving a kind of closure). So perhaps the question is, did death represent being cheated of answers and what might have been, or did it precipitate closure (albeit in a traumatic, kick-in-the-gut fashion)? Thematically and mood-wise this film reminded me a lot of Hayao Miyazaki's Spirited Away, although Chihiro doesn't face anything quite this bad, though her parents will live or die depending on her actions.

And finally, the two brothers solidified their relationship on the trip, bonding as never before. Each became protective of the other when the father was unreasonable or harsh, later, each threatened to kill him if he hurt the other. At the end the older boy assumed responsibility, never chiding his brother for what he had done, assuming the role of protective big brother or perhaps even "father". Contrast this with the way he treated his little brother at the beginning of the film. However one interprets the film, it appeared that both boys were honed, improved by the sequence of events. Lots to chew on here.





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@trancelucence--

Some films are straightforward, some are lyric poetry. "The Return" is lyric poetry. Of course it doesn't have fulfilling expository ending. Great art never does. If exposition (i.e., what's-in-the-box) were this film's strength, the movie wouldn't haunt people who see it. You bring up Asian cinema. "High and Low" is fantastic expository narrative that, once seen, can't be enjoyed again nearly as much because we know the secret to the kidnapping. Its strength is expository.

"The Return" can be re-watched as often as a great book can be re-read. A good test of a film's status as art is if the film's meaning(s) changes as you age. The person who launched this thread seemed not to have a capacity to appreciate irony.

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You sure summed that up nicely- exactly! Another film that fits this bill, for me, is Ordinary People. There are multiple ways to look at it, threads to follow. It irked me in reviews on Amazon that people wanted to sum it up in one sentence, e.g., the mother was a monster. The subtleties went right over their heads. Anyway, thanks for making this distinction.

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I haven't seen anyone (perhaps I just missed something) mention the religious symbolism in this movie - I think it's very important. The father is really The Father - the one who makes suffer those he loves the most, the one whose love is not always obvious and straight, the one we, his weak children, complain about, but he also is the one who when the time comes atones for our sins and sacrifices himself. Do we really ever know him or his intentions? No. But he knows us (keeps our photo close) and appears when he is needed. A clear hint is the first appearance of the father - a direct citation from Mantegna's Lamentation of Christ.

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Very well-said. Other posters--in fact, lots of posters--have discussed the scene in the bedroom where the father looks like a Baroque depiction of Christ. The problem is that IMDB got rid of at least ten pages' worth of comments about this film. Why? Anyone's guess.

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