MovieChat Forums > Tristan + Isolde (2006) Discussion > WHO LOVED ISOLDE MORE? Tristan/Marke

WHO LOVED ISOLDE MORE? Tristan/Marke

posted 16 years ago by milliondollarbaby1213
114 replies | jump to latest

From a previous board it made me wonder who loved Isolde more. Usually we pick who she should have chosen, some feel that she and Tristan were meant to be, some think that she should have chosen Marke and got over Tristan...

But based on the movie, who truly loved Isolde more? Who appreciated her? Who cared for her? Sacrificed the most for her? Wanted her deeply enough to do anything for her?

I will start off by saying that I have to give the award to Tristan.

First reason why is because he fell head over heels for her and was still able to (initially) resist being with her, because he just wanted her to be happy and wanted to honor his king. . . Got more reasons but any arguments? Agreements?

[–] Sienna1901 16 years ago

I deffinitely think Tristan loved her the most!

Another reason is that he went to the battles for Marke, but it wasnt really for Marke. Tristan was actually risking his life just for the possibility of going back to see Isolde again.

I think thats pretty bold.

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

No, my dears, Tristan lusted for her. I'm saying Marke.

Tristan fell in love with a face, Marke fell in love with a heart. From the moment Marke met Isolde he saw a kindess that he knew he was going to love, Tristan was a bit whiny and a bit arrogant. Marke sacrficed everything for Tristan's happiness and he repays him by sleeping with his wife. Back OT, Marke's only wish in life was "to make her happy" and you can tell in several scenes that he indeed loved her. It was just the little things that he did with her. The little hand caresses, the kiss on the hair, the feeding in the marketplace, the touch of the shoulder, the sincere smile, the...Oh my god, I'm rambling again. I'm a heavy Marke/Isolde shipper LOL. Don't flame me please, everyone has their own opinon.

Starting tonight...people will die. I'm a man of my word.-The Joker from Batman 2

[–] asiavou 16 years ago

I rather agree. Tristan did love Isolde but he was a bit unseemingly jealous of her affection for Marke, whereas Marke was willing to give her up when he realized how much Tristan loved her. She was Marke's one true happiness, aside from Tristan, and for his love of both of them Marke tried to give them their freedom and send them away and never see either of them again.

[–] HHHnumber1fan 16 years ago

I have to disagree that Marke loved her more. I have to say tristan did. You say Tristan loved her for her face? Well so did Marke! When Isolde first arrived he was OPENLY disappointed when he saw Bragnae get out of the carriage thinking that she was Isolde. But he was happy again when he saw the real Isolde. The the loving moments? The hand holding, the feeding in the marketplace? Tristan would have done those things if he was allowed!! Making the bracelet out of stones, and the bracelet out of flowers were his little ways of showing her he cared..while still remaining secret. The bracelet of flowers was very significant because he made that same bracelet for his mother. And when he put the bracelet on Isolde's wrist he held her hand. I do like Marke in the movie and feel bad for him, but i still think that Tristan loved her more, and was better for her.

[–] derrick_8mv 15 years ago

people are .. just wow.. of course it's Tristan?? not lust... intimacy is only a part of love. yes, Tristan went back because he wanted to find Isolde.. lookin for her in the stands. Marke just had a kind heart. And Isolde loved Tristan.. sooooooo.... and at the end of the movie.. Tristan realized what true love was.

He tried so hard letting go of her but he couldn't. But in the end he did.. because he knew what was best for the both of them.
"why does loving you feel so wrong?"
hahahaaaha LOVE THAT MOVIE!

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

Sorry but I must disagree, Marke's love could never compare to Tristan's because he had no obstacles to overcome. She was given to him, he was attracted to her, enjoyed and needed her company, and cherished the moments he spent with her.

However Tristan never had the ease of a convenient love for Isolde, and nevertheless he loved her deeply. From the beginning they were separated by differences in race, Isolde's betrothal, escape from death, the barrier of the seas separating them, and then finally the arranged marriage to Marke. But he never ceases to love her, and her words never leave from his soul. He tries hard to forget about her, to leave the kingdom, to deny his need for her and still is overwhelmed.

And his sacrifices!! He could have been killed for staying in Ireland, he could have been killed for battling on behalf of the king, he could have been killed for their affair. But over and over again he risked his life, ONLY FOR HER. And he loved her enough to wish her happiness and defend her honor at the end.

Sorry but Tristan's love is undeniably greater!

[–] tropicalmontauk 16 years ago

BRAVO!!!!!Well said, Elmo...

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

I must disagree, Elmo. Marke lost his hand because of Tristan, he gave Tristan the power to become king after his death (God forbid), and he treated him like a son. Okay fine, Tristan LOVED Isolde but there is a difference between LOVED and WORSHIPPED. I was never fully convinced that Marke loved his first wife, perhaps he felt he was forced into marriage (like many nobles were in those days). All we had a taste of was Tristan & Isolde having sex, but then we saw Marke NOT having sex with her. Let's think about the marketplace, shall we? Isolde told Tristan that she admired Marke and wished to be his friend, that does not go without saying that she felt a little SOMETHING for him, she said so herself that she couldn't help but feel a little admiration for her husband. So yes, Isolde may have admired Marke but Marke loved her.

Starting tonight...people will die. I'm a man of my word.-The Joker from Batman 2

[–] tropicalmontauk 16 years ago

What good did it do that Marke loved her? She clearly didnt love him...she was only in that situation because of her father....she would not have given Marke a second look if things were different...he was old enough to be her father...and another thing...why didnt Marke remarry before then...if he was such a kind man ( and Im not disputing that fact), wouldnt he make a wonderful husband for a woman he CHOSE instead of won, and not even won by him? What would he have done if she were ugly and older? Nah, I think he lusted for her....after all she was a pretty, young thing...but Tristan really loved her and I think they were better suited for each other. It was just unfortunate in a way that Marke was a kind man, because it made Tristan and Isolde feel like a horrible people. I know Marke did a lot for Tristan but Tristan also did a lot for Marke. As as far as worshipping someone, I dont think that is a healthy situation for anyone to WORSHIP another...to me it borders on obsession, not love. I'm with Elmo on this one....Tristan loved her in the real sense of the word.....

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

Don't insult Marke!

Starting tonight...people will die. I'm a man of my word.-The Joker from Batman 2

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

I don't think anyone's insulting Marke its really more of a matter of being realistic. Marke probably didn't marry because he was still in love with/missing his deceased wife. For those years that he longed for her a large void had formed in his heart, which he probably was just trying to fill with Isolde. Its very conceivable that he tried to transfer his love for his former to her, without even realizing that the connection was not mutual.

And as for the sex scenes, first of all there are scenes with both Tristan AND Marke, so lets try to remember everything here. The ones with Tristan though are more about the couple making love, and Tristan being attentive to Isolde's needs - that is the true love that makes him greater. If Marke reallly loved her and understood her, he would know that her heart was breaking every time she laid down with him, and that she was unhappy. He said his wishes were to make HER happy, but he seemed oblivious to her depression. The only time he picked up on something awry was when he found the bracelet Tristan gave her.

I'm sorry but the love that Tristan gave her was pure, without motive, and it was much stronger. It brought Isolde back to him. Marke's love was never enough to capture her heart, and although she admitted him a "kind man" and that she "cannot hate him", at no time does she ever show more fulfillment in his arms...

[–] sngerever 16 years ago

I DEFINITLY THINK TRISTAN! the love that he had for his was bigger than any love ive ever seen. he couldnt even breathe without her, let alone eat of sleep without her. he was definitly in love with her more!

[–] GypsyNomad 14 years ago

CryptMistress...
I have to say you're very wrong here. On several accounts. Don't take it the wrong way but you seem to have missed the first part of the movie. Tristan and Isolde didn't have sex until way after he was mostly healed. They had talked and laughed and shared life stories for the most part and opinions on love and duty. They didn't just hop into bed the moment he opened his eyes. Yes Isolde, G-girl and Tristan were naked together, but it doesn't count when he's unconscious.
Secondly, your argument about Marke loving Isolde more is kind of off point. To me your argument (and rightly so in this regard) was that Marke LOVED TRISTAN, everything he did was for Tristan, even forsaking his blood relatives and his peace with Isolde and her "fragility". Part of it was because he loved Tristan's father who wanted the peace and wanted Marke to lead a united Kingdom and mostly it was because he lost his child and wife in the same slaughter he lost his brother-in-law, and Tristan's parents. He raised Tristan as a son and wanted him to become King after he passed, before there was even a wife to worry about. That much is clear when he puts Tristan in charge of planning, debating the other Kings and attacking the enemy and the love is SOOO clear when he doesn't come back from battle.
Marke gave up Isolde not for the reason that she loved Tristan but because he didn't WANT to kill Tristan and when he realized he wasn't actually betrayed AFTER they were married, but rather before she was ever to be his Queen, he let them off, angry that the treaty of the Kingdoms was a failure because they didn't ALL stand together when they were split apart by a love interest. That was rectified when Tristan came back to help Marke- which is a very clear showing of his love for his 'father' and King. He believed strongly in the idea of a united country and he believed strongly in love. Yes Tristan loved Isolde, yes Marke despite all the arguments loved her too, but their love for each other were stronger.
By the way this sentence: "Okay fine, Tristan LOVED Isolde but there is a difference between LOVED and WORSHIPPED." Might you want to rethink it? The topic is loved, not worshiped. I can worship someone without loving them. In fact the person I love, I would not want to worship. It would be a blind love then and not loving for everything, even the faults.
Marke loved his wife. It was clearly seen. He did not look to find another wife in 9 years and he would have had his pick. It was a treaty that caused him to remarry and Tristan's insistence. It was just a bonus that she was beautiful and kind.

So in the end, who loved Isolde more? I don't think it matters, she loved Tristan and Tristan and Marke were bound by their duty and love of kinship with one another. Its an interesting guy pack thing, a woman loves a man and gives up everything for him, but men will honor their bond with other men. I'm not sure either is good or bad.
So if you want a vote casted, I guess I'll have to go with... Tristan. They both gave her up at some point in the story. Tristan continuously tried to- and before you argue that then he did not love her as much, he loved his father and King and Kingdom and was raised that way to believe nothing else came first. Love did fill his life and stuck with him, and it was both Isolde and duty.

WOW... I didn't think I could argue myself out of seeing that this was a love story between Isolde and Tristan but I think I just managed it. Oops... haha. The story should be: Honor + Love...
Hmm... I guess I will leave with this one last argument in the sake Tristan loving Isolde more than Marke does, which is the topic at hand. Marke saw a pretty face and a treaty and fell in love with her kindness. Tristan saw his savior and fell in love with her kindness and a pretty face was connected to it. So if Isolde had been ugly, Tristan would still have loved her wholly and Marke probably would have let her go easier, thinking her kind hearted and sweet but not fit to bare his children and wanted his 'son' to be happy. Tristan had spent time with her and would have continued to because of his wound which would have allowed him time to get to know her, forcing them together. Marke probably would have consummated their relationship and forged more fully into his Kingly duties, and casting Isolde to the side. Still kind to her but not attending to her at every moment. Probably wouldn't have been too disappointed with the affair and maybe only questioning the reasoning behind Tristan's decisions and the fallout with the other kings, perhaps... Guess we'll never know for sure though, because both loved her a lot and she was beautiful so guessing what if had she been less attractive is a moot point, but interesting to look at, no?

[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Emsy5006 16 years ago

I definitely think Tristan. There's no doubt that Marke loved her too, but Tristan was there first and his love was made greater by the fact that he could never really have her because of her marriage to Marke.

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

Thank you, Emsy. At least someone acknowledges the fact that Marke loved her.

Starting tonight...people will die. I'm a man of my word.-The Joker from Batman 2

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

Everyone acknowledged that Marke loved her. Its who loved her MORE. And it seems unanimous that its Tristan.

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

You guys are really going to hate me in a few months LOL.

Starting tonight...people will die. I'm a man of my word.-The Joker from Batman 2

[–] grumpy_otter 16 years ago

It is NOT unanimous! Marke loved her more.

There have been many good and thoughtful posts here, but I must disagree with most of them.

When Marke was given Isolde, I think he was overwhelmed that this beautiful creature was his--that is why I think he was blind to Isolde's love for Tristan at the beginning. Then, as he grew to truly love her for who she was, his love blinded him to Isolde's love for Tristan. (Plus, I would argue that Isolde DID care for him, which, to a man blinded by love, would be all the encouragement he needed)

Tristan, on the other hand, did everything he could to make Isolde's new life miserable. The little taunt while shopping for flowers, castigating her for being kind to Marke, trying to lure her away from her husband, etc.

Tristan did not love her--he wanted to possess her. That is quite different.

He may have felt an ethereal and unending passion for her, but his actions hurt her and put her in danger--that is not love.

Marke's love was proved in the final scenes--he freed her because he cared more for her happiness than for his own. THAT is true love.

(I don't know if this is relevant, but I am 42 years old and have loved three times. I disagree with movies that define love as "keeping" the one you love. Sometimes real love means letting them go. Plus I have Marke as my computer background, so I am biased :-))

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

grumpy, thank you! At least I have someone on my side.

Starting tonight...people will die. I'm a man of my word.-The Joker from Batman 2

[–] grumpy_otter 16 years ago

You bet, babe!

This is what I look at daily:

http://www.aboutrufus.com/TristanUndIsolde4crpt.jpg

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

Amen, to that! You made some VERY good points that I simply could not get across. I'm guiltlessly making a Marke/Isolde fansite.

Starting tonight...people will die. I'm a man of my word.-The Joker from Batman 2

[–] grumpy_otter 16 years ago

I hope you will post it here when you do--and/or send me a pm--I'd like to check it out!

Have you read the original poem? The film really messed it up--in that, it is pretty clear that Marke is brutal and not worthy of love, and Tristan is the hero.

BUT, based on the film alone, I still stand by my assessment.

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

It's not just the things that we know about. It's the little things. I had a whole list of them on another thread, but it's the way Marke touches Isolde and the way he genuinely seems grateful just to be in her presence.

Starting tonight...people will die. I'm a man of my word.-The Joker from Batman 2

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

This foolishness you guys are posting is really cute and all but in essence is idealistic and poorly supported.

The "blindness" by love which compels Marke to be disillusioned into thinking that Isolde loves him back shows just how shallow his love is. What does he know Isolde for? What does he understand about her mind? The explanation of love that Isolde gives to Tristan is only a glimpse of the deep connection they were able to explore in their time together in Ireland. Marke simply CANNOT love her more than Tristan - he barely knows her! He just desires her and relies upon her for support, but his love cannot run as deep as Tristan's.

Understandably, your point is correct that true love is not always "keeping" the love that you want. But that is proven first by Tristan when he graciously gives Isolde to Marke - and this is when she is PLEADING with him to run away! To suggest that he pulled Isolde away from Marke is ridiculous, Isolde was aching for Tristan every moment that he was gone. She sought HIM out at the market, she suggested to HIM to meet in private, she begged HIM to see her once again even as he tried to end their affair. And his trying to end the affair was the second time that he was willing to sacrifice being with her - because of his love for her and for MARKE!!

Only Tristan could experience such a depth of feeling - he is a more passionate man than Marke could ever be. Marke was a combination of raw ambition, compassion, and integrity and while that made him a strong character, it was never enough to match Tristan's heart. Tristan loved completely with his whole soul, even when it burned him inside, he loved her consistently. He put his life on the line for her, and devoted his final words to the truths that she spoke. Remember Tristan felt that love was greater than life and death - I cannot fathom Marke ever allowing his emotions to surpass his pride in order to feel that way.

By the way best wishes with your website, I certainly won't hate you for it since I don't plan on visiting!

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

Okay, so we don't have alot of supporters? Does that MATTER? I say YOU are the foolish one for not even giving this coupling a second glance.

Starting tonight...people will die. I'm a man of my word.-The Joker from Batman 2

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

I told you I did take into consideration that Marke did love Isolde, but hey thats not really the question I'm asking. Its about who loved her more. And a second glance? Its a movie. There's only so many angles you can look at it from, so many things to base it on.

At the end of the day, you can't actually be surprised that I'm holding to my opinion! LOL the movie is titled "TRISTAN & ISOLDE"... big surprise that I see it from the standpoint it is meant to be portrayed.

Glad that you can admit that the supporters are few, though. You're on your way to a Tristan/Isolde shipper crossover! HAHAHA

[–] sarahha2001 16 years ago

i do believe that marke loved her but i think tristan loved her the most because tristan really got to know her, who she is and what she wants from the world. Marke really just got to see her as a beautiful quiet person who does what she's told.

[–] grumpy_otter 16 years ago

The "blindness" by love which compels Marke to be disillusioned into thinking that Isolde loves him back shows just how shallow his love is.

I never claimed Marke thought Isolde loved him back--I meant that he was "blinded" by his love for her in that he did not see her love for Tristan.

If he HAD seen it at the beginning, he would have given her to Tristan immediately, as that is the kind of honorable guy he was. But then the movie would have been over really quickly. :-) And of course, now I am making stuff up that didn't happen in the movie. (This scenario ends with Marke living happily ever after with ME)

What does he know Isolde for? What does he understand about her mind? . . . .
He just desires her and relies upon her for support, but his love cannot run as deep as Tristan's.

I think that, as Marke got to know her (and she is a nice girl), his initial desire became true love.

Understandably, your point is correct that true love is not always "keeping" the love that you want. But that is proven first by Tristan when he graciously gives Isolde to Marke - and this is when she is PLEADING with him to run away!

"Graciously?" He seemed pretty ticked to me. I think this actually supports my point about Tristan. He made an honorable agreement to win her for his king--he should have stood by that agreement. Not met with her, not taunted her, etc. If he truly loved her, he should have recognized that she would only have a chance for happiness if he stayed out of it.

To suggest that he pulled Isolde away from Marke is ridiculous, Isolde was aching for Tristan every moment that he was gone. She sought HIM out at the market, she suggested to HIM to meet in private, she begged HIM to see her once again even as he tried to end their affair.

Well, I would argue that Isolde was showing signs of enjoying her life with Marke--that's what made Tristan angry. The smiling and laughing with Marke part, is what I mean. I'm not saying she LOVED Marke yet, but she might have grown to love him if Tristan had stayed out of it.

I don't have a copy where I can check, but wasn't there the scene where Tristan snuck up behind Isolde while she was with Marke and slipped a bracelet or somthing into her hand? That's the kind of behavior I am referring to.

Only Tristan could experience such a depth of feeling - he is a more passionate man than Marke could ever be. Marke was a combination of raw ambition, compassion, and integrity and while that made him a strong character, it was never enough to match Tristan's heart.

I don't think Marke was so prideful--I would say honorable. He had to have a certain level of pride and ambition because he was a king. And I think their respective levels of passion are a matter of opinion. I saw PLENTY of passion in Marke.

I'm enjoying this discussion and hope you do not believe I am criticising your position--I'm having fun trying to understand your argument.

I think your last paragraph underlines the main difference in our positions--it seems that we define "love" differently.

Tristan loved completely with his whole soul, even when it burned him inside, he loved her consistently. He put his life on the line for her, and devoted his final words to the truths that she spoke. Remember Tristan felt that love was greater than life and death - I cannot fathom Marke ever allowing his emotions to surpass his pride in order to feel that way.

I don't think this is real "love." Who wants to go around "burning" inside all the time? And "greater than life and death?" We wouldn't have many living lovers if that were the case.

I define love as "the happiness of another person being the most important thing." By THAT definition, Tristan's actions were not fueled by love--they were fueled by the desire to quench the "burning" he felt. Marke, on the other hand, truly wanted to make Isolde happy. Or at least, he tried.

I didn't mean to ramble on so long--I have a free morning before I have to get back to the daily grind. :-)

[–] GypsyNomad 14 years ago

Lol, I will make this short and sweet. This is in regards to your second long post, my other was in regards to the first.
All I'm adding here is...
The scene you are referring to was after they had started their affair. There was another scene in the market before that, that he had turned and walked away from them and Marke and his sister were commenting on the odd behavior. Isolde suggested she help out and went up to him and pushed matters to start the affair which led to the scene you are talking about.

_______________

I define love as "the happiness of another person being the most important thing." By THAT definition, Tristan's actions were not fueled by love--they were fueled by the desire to quench the "burning" he felt. Marke, on the other hand, truly wanted to make Isolde happy. Or at least, he tried.
_________________________

I want a burning fiery love! It makes things interesting! Lol, but really I agree, she would have loved him eventually but not like she loved Tristan. It would have been a safe and simple love like most arrange marriages turn into. Fidelity, probably, content sure. HAPPY? Maybe not.

Another thing, was it you that wanted to make a fanfic with him living his days out with you?
I was thinking about this. I LOVE Marke. I really do, I wrote that before i even got onto this board. So no comments on that front. However I was thinking that if Tristan had gone up to Marke before the marriage ceremony and said that he had met and fell in love with Isolde before he came back alive, and Marke let him have her. (I think he'd do that more for Tristan than their love bit, had he asked for any woman...) The movie wouldn't have been over. The romance side... yeah maybe but the entire plot, no. Because Tristan and Isolde would have been married, and Marke KING of all of England and Isolde Queen of Argon with Tristan King, supporting Marke. Marke would still have named Tristan successor and maybe have gone off and married you.
However the King of Ireland was intending on disavowing Isolde anyways, and the affair aided him in splitting up the kingdoms for a short time. But King of Ireland disowns Isolde, causing a rift in the kingdoms, even though Tristan and Marke stood united, they'd have to think about it twice before joining ranks against their terror. So Isolde's marriage to Tristan wouldn't have really solved anything because she was no longer uniting Ireland and England together and there'd still be war and people would have to choose sides. Good old nephew of Marke might still have chosen Ireland's side to try and get the seat of power... though maybe not. Either way, the movie would have still lasted 2 hours...

So too are my comments. sorry I know i said short and sweet.

________________________________________________________________________________
"The Cullens don't come here." (La push guy)- THE worst deadpanned line I have ever seen...

[–] philippa-smith7 16 years ago

Can i write a fanfiction for it?

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] GypsyNomad 14 years ago

grumpy- See longer post
but i wanted to add on after your comment made me think of something else, or something that you raised and I had to fight.
Tristan tried to give up Isolde A LOT of times. He wanted Marke and her to be happy. 1st time: When she was bethrothed- he would have walked away but she made some point that had him fighting for her. 2nd: when he had to leave her behind and go to England without her because he knew it would not work. 3rd: when he fought and won her for his King- he told her it was duty. 4th: She KEPT coming onto him. He had even moved out of his home and into a friend's house but she conned her way into talking to him when he clearly wanted to avoid her. He was trying to let them work things out, but it was killing up inside that they were together and he wasn't with her and had to watch it. He taunted her because she was pushing matters and making things worse by pulling him aside in private and confronting his feelings when he was just trying to forget them or make them less hurtful, and she didn't help matters, so he struck back. 5th- He tried to end it with her after Marke thought an affair was happening. 6th: Even after she begged him to meet her, he decided he was going to leave before they got caught. He couldn't harm her with the King's wrath if he truly suspected an affair and he couldn't be with her or harm his king. 7th: He pushed her and her maid away on the boat, trying to send them to a place where she would be safe. She came back again.
Wow she's pushy, but that's ok, she saw true love and went for it and wouldn't accept a no.

YES Marke let them go to be happy together, but don't knock Tristan, he tried too.
And I'm not arguing with your perception of Marke either, I agree with part of it a lot (encouragement) and not so much with the overwhelmed by beauty part, but you could be right. You'd have to ask the actor what he was thinking when he played that particular scene and what he wanted the audience to get out of it.

Just a side note on your ending comment. I know it's always been harped about how true love sometimes means letting the one you love go. Like the butterfly that can't live in a jar its entire life or the child that wants to go off and see the world, both being smothered. Hell even the boy or girl who has to move away to pursue a dream and the other one has to pursue a dream in a different direction. I get that, I argue that point a lot. But true love also means fighting for it. Trying to work things out, trying to keep things together. Meaning to fight all the battles to stay with one another. Only as an end result, after everything else has been tried and failed, then to let go of it. I mean if it is TRUE love, love finds a way, right?
I know there is a fine line, and it depends on the relationship and the perceived view on a relationship. One person might be more vested in it than another and you might get a real creepo that thinks a smile means everlasting devotion, but then that's not TRUE love, is it?
In this case, Tristan let Isolde go, and she came back to him. Sometimes people forget the ending of that idea. True love sometimes means letting the one you love go, but its with a hope that they'll come back on their own, when they're ready. (And then stay together).

[–] grumpy_otter 16 years ago

BTW, what's a "shipper?"

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

Shipping, derived from the word "relationship", is a general term for fans' emotional and/or intellectual involvement with the ongoing development of romance in a work of fiction. Though technically applicable to any such involvement, it refers chiefly to various related social dynamics observable on the Internet, and is seldom used outside of that context.

Shipping can involve virtually any kind of relationship — from the well-known and established, to the ambiguous or those undergoing development, and even to the highly improbable and the blatantly impossible. People involved in shipping (or shippers) assert that the relationship does exist, will exist, or simply that they would like it to exist.

Hope that helps...LOL. You were not rambling, otter. We must excuse, elmo. Ever since I started a thread for fans of the coupling of Marke & Isolde, I have becomed Elmo's target.

Starting tonight...people will die. I'm a man of my word.-The Joker from Batman 2

[–] grumpy_otter 16 years ago

Thank you for the definition--that helps!

I don't think Elmo is making you a target--this discussion (aside from the "foolishness" remark--and we all get a little passionate now and then!) has been very civilized, I think.

I'm enjoying it, anyway. There's something I'd like to throw in here--and I may really, really regret it....

I think most women/girls who support the Tristan/Isolde ship (did I use it right?) are probably younger and less experienced in "love" than those who support the Marke/Isolde ship.

<ducking>

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

You are probably right. Tristan is hot, and they think that pretty people belong together. Okay, Marke is older than Isolde but there is no doubt that he loved her. I'm seventeen and even I can see that LOL.

Starting tonight...people will die. I'm a man of my word.-The Joker from Batman 2

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

Well i see its time to step in here and address the "pretty people belong together" comment.

First of all I'm older than kimberly and I certainly don't support Tristan just because he's hot and Isolde and him would look good together. I support it because I'm an avid movie viewer and I try to look in depth to the story, to the emotions displayed by the characters, and to compare to real life situations that I've experienced. Sometimes you can see a movie and it reminds you of a relationship you've had in the past, and helps you to understand the actions and emotions of the characters.

So as far as your life experience argument, not only is it overruled, its completely the opposite!

Regardless I think the discussion is dwindling when it comes down to did Marke love Isolde. I keep trying to remind everyone that that's not the question. Its obvious Marke loved Isolde. Your technical arguments support that very well, but the question is who loved her MORE. MORE my friends. Since we have two definitions of love, lets define MORE!

MORE - adjective, compar. of much or many with most as superl. 1. in greater quantity, amount, measure, degree, or number

OK now we're talking!

So in order to break this down correctly, we can't just cite examples of where Marke loved her and where Tristan loved her, we have to isolate which of the two displayed a greater quantity, amount, measure, degree or number.

Personally I am a believer that there do exist people who can know someone for years, love them and still not barely touch the surface of what another person can love them for who has known them for just a few days. The key in this is the return. When your love is overpowering, the reaction of the other person is always clearly evident in that they see a difference in you, they appreciate that your love is different than their other. Lets compare to the movie.

IF IN FACT Marke did love Isolde more, once married to him she would have sensed a difference in how he treated her, how she felt in his presence, how she felt inside. Tristan's love would then pale in comparison, and his efforts soon forgotten.

However, this is not what took place. While Tristan watched from a distance, but pulled away, depressed over the feelings that still existed in him, Isolde still yearned for him. She still sought him out, and felt the need to confess that her feelings for him had not changed. If Tristan was able to block her from his mind, it would show an inferiority in his love to Marke's. But he can't lie to himself. He still is intensely in love with her, and Marke's affections are simply not enough to match that.

I'm sorry but you can argue that Marke was self sacrificing for Isolde, and that wanting another person to be happy is an example of love, but he was able to let her go so easily because his feelings were not as strong. He mentally pieced together in his mind the severe depression Tristan endured, the pain that he experienced, the anguish over their affair while Isolde explained the details to him in their room. His immediate response to free them was not only an act of nobility and grace, it was a personal admission that Tristan's love was their first and ran deeper than his. IT measured more and therefore was meant to be.

IF THIS WERE NOT THE CASE, if you would like to argue that he simply did it for Isolde, you could also argue that he could've banished Tristan alone and kept Isolde, as she was a good wife to him and would likely continue to be submissive. In light of Tristan's absence he quite possibly could have persuaded her. But even he could not deny that it was out of his hands and he was beat - Tristan LOVED HER MORE.

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

elmo, JUST go away. I support an opposing coupling that I feel is better than another. It makes me different. I will say on Tristan's behalf that he did love Isolde, but I feel that Marke loved her more. Can we leave it at that?

Starting tonight...people will die. I'm a man of my word.-The Joker from Batman 2

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

Chill out ok. No need to take it personal kimberly. Its a discussion board. We DISCUSS. If that concept bothers you, then YOU should go away. LOL

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

I know, it's just that I know that I am the one who sparked this with my Marke/Isolde board it's just that I was hoping some people would have some sense to at least look into this coupling, and I have taken it to another level. I apologize. I'm glad some support this coupling and hope that the fans for of this certain ship grow when I create my fansite. You must think of me like a venomous poison, like if I continue to debate on this topic that it'll spread and kill everyone.

Starting tonight...people will die. I'm a man of my word.-The Joker from Batman 2

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

Sounds more like a Spiderman 3 board!!

No I really could care less, I like when people have a very strong take on their opinion, it makes it more of a challenge to debate with them about it. That makes the boards interesting! There's probably a lot of people who agree with you, but they can't support their case, so its hard to speak up. I give you credit for your responses.

Honestly, I might be more a fan of Marke/Isolde, had there been some role reversal, like if he met her first or something, but I can't seem to see the chemistry between them.

Be prepared though, that your fansite will attract the opposed. I don't plan on visiting it, since it'll probably send off sparks, but others will I'm sure. But come on now, it gets boring to sit up there and agree about things all the time. I bet you notice more elements of a film when you are defending it against opposition rather than sharing similar thoughts.

[–] grumpy_otter 16 years ago

I was hoping some people would have some sense to at least look into this coupling,

I think people have--and pretty well, too. Don't be angry just because they don't agree with you. BTW, there are some Marke supporters on other parts of this board--just haven't posted lately. Maybe they'll wander back around sometime...:-)

[–] Kyuukon 16 years ago

I have to agree with Kim and Otter. Marke's love for Isolde infinitely surpasses Tristan's.

Want proof?

Tristan was acting on lust alone- which, if you take a look at the definition, is not at all love. In acting, Tristan inevitably hurt Isolde, who would have eventually grown to love Marke for who he was. That is not an act of love, that is an act of lust. Lust is something almost akin to insanity. In his actions, he lusted after Isolde, inevitably hurting her and betraying the man who lost a hand to save him.

Yet, after it all, Marke still managed to let Isolde leave him to make her happy. Although he was hindered and made ugly to Isolde because of his missing hand as well as Isolde's love for Tristan, he never stopped his attempt to make Isolde happy! He gave her all he could, and you could see that she could've grown to love him if Isolde was given time. Unfortunately, Tristan kept cutting in and teasing the girl, acting only because of his want to possess her.

I clearly cannot hope to change your minds if you truly believe in the Tristan/Isolde relationship, but I just wanted to get my opinion out there. =)

[–] hotaugustnight 16 years ago

Oh, it's definitely the love of MARKE that is the greatest for Isolde. For true love is unconditional and Tristan's and Isolde's love for each other was very conditional. "Meet me or I shall die (and it will be all your fault)...kind of love. Get it?

Marke showed the greater compassion and who, mature enough to see it, could not fall for that? He showed unconditional love by giving them their freedom and each, in turn, saw that they could not run away from Marke's love.

The first time I watched the movie, my first thought at the end was, "Did Isolde go back to Marke after Tristan's death? Did he take her in?" Run that little test on the character of Marke and see what you think.

I'm changing my wallpaper right now to the delicious Marke: ie Rufus Sewell!

Good question, OP!

[–] grumpy_otter 16 years ago

Okay. So when I first started posting here, I'd only seen the movie one time. After all this talk, I felt I needed a renewal, so I rented it today and just finished watching it again.

I tried really, really hard to see ANY evidence of love for Isolde coming from Tristan, and I failed.

I have decided that, not only did Marke love her more, Tristan did not love her AT ALL. Yes, he lusted for her, and desired her, and burned for her, and wanted to possess her, but his actions put her life in danger and ultimately, left her very unhappy.

That is NOT love.

I will concede however, that Tristan felt more lust for her. Lust is crazy and doesn't care who it hurts--and that's what Tristan's actions showed.

So let me just tie up a few loose threads--about the "life experience" comment--that's not really what I meant. But I do think, as one gets older, the "romantic dream" of love becomes more practical, and less idealistic. But trust me, I know what it is like to feel that passionate burning that makes you want to go crazy inside (and believe it or not, I still feel it sometimes!). I just don't think it's love.

Elmo also said something above about Marke being able to let Isolde go because he felt less for her--I really disagree with that. I almost cried when I re-watched the scene where Isolde is confessing everything to him--there is a moment when he turns away from her and you can see that all his dreams for their love (which he admitted had blinded him) came crashing down. I can't prove it, because the movie doesn't deal with him later, but in my imagination, Marke suffered terribly from the loss of both Tristan and Isolde from his life.

Love is not love if it makes you behave badly.

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

Sorry Marke/Isolde shippers but I think your desire for them to be a true couple has led you to imagine things that didn't exist. The depth of character that was shown in Tristan just wasn't explored in Marke. You can tell he was a good man, but you can't compare his facial expressions to Tristan's heart and say that Marke had more. And you certainly can't deny Tristan having love for Isolde and reduce it to just lust. Lust has no background beyond physical attraction. And thats not at all what brought them together.

You can see when Tristan first falls for Isolde it is because of her intellect, her feelings on love itself, her perception of duty and honor not being the means to life. Tristan really did love her and tried his best to let her be. He was simply tormented by what his heart needed. If he only lusted her, his emotions wold have been simple enough for him to replace her when he found himself jealous of her interactions with Marke. But he did not do this, he was content to be miserable, because he loved her SO. He even tried to leave, he begged BEGGED Marke not even to name him his second, that he wanted to go far away from there. That is amazingly self-sacrificing! He would give up his life, his rank, his honor, just to have temporary relief of the pain of seeing his love with someone else. But MARKE trapped him into staying - either way he felt a responsibility towards him.

Isolde voiced her needs to Tristan, he never wished to endanger her. He only satisfied the needs for which she yearned, and made clear to him that she needed and wanted, as any man in love does. Its like the spoiling that takes place in the beginning of a relationship and only in time do you realize that you must take care of whats in the person's best interests, not always just what they want.

This is what motivated him to end the affair, burn the ruins, and remove himself from Isolde's presence. He was distraught but WILLING to do what he needed to for Isolde, once he regained his senses about how the affair could ultimately hurt them. It was also his love and respect for Marke that helped him to see past his feelings and know that regardless of the fact that they fell in love first, Marke was her husband now and that was all that mattered. He solidified this when he refused to run away with her, and fought on behalf of Marke.

I don't believe you can reasonably state that Isolde would have grown to love Marke, you really can't judge that based on the fact that he was a kind man and she couldn't hate him. She already felt violated! She was a woman who NEVER wished to have her fate decided for her, and would probably resent whomever she was obligated to be with. Her only true attachment would grow for the one whom she chose, and who understood her needs not because of society ordained obligation, but because of personal interest, and genuine attraction. Tristan fit this mold to the "T".

He is also the only of the two to recognize her deepest desires and acknowledge them. Marke spoke of wanting to make her happy, but had he loved her nearly as much as Tristan and paid attention enough to make distinction between her happiness and her continuous depression, he would have known long ago that she wasn't satisfied and would have sought out the reason. Tristan's small acts of recognition (ie the bracelet when Isolde spoke of wishing for PDA) was evidence enough of his intense care and attention to her needs.

The fact that he also pulled away is evidence as well. He too wished for her public happiness and not for a hidden affair with only stolen moments of pleasure. With his happiness and hers in his grasp, he chose hers without hesitation. Marke instead tried to make Isolde love him, and it just wasn't there. He graciously granted her happiness only at the end, when the truth was exposed. That to me doesn't prove him worthy of the love Tristan beheld.

The opposers on this board make good efforts at arguments for Marke, but in the end the suggestion of Love and Lust being interchanged on Tristan's behalf is simply unconceivable.

[–] hotaugustnight 16 years ago

Lack of the experience of true love protests loud and long...

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

Hot august night proves Cold November Temperament. Please don't judge on a board when the most you have to offer is a sentence. Its so simple.

[–] grumpy_otter 16 years ago

Why did you change your name?

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

I realized that it encourages people to call me Elmo, and it sounds funny from everyone else. It's a nickname based on an inside joke from a friend, so when other people use it, it sounds weird. Plus I really like that movie! (Million Dollar Baby)

[–] hotaugustnight 16 years ago

Who judges most, twocentbaby?

A quick tally of the votes proves that opinion is 50/50 on the subject. It most certainly not decided.

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

Thats fine hotarmpitnight, I'm glad you were able to take the time required to come to such a crucial revelation! Now we can all sleep tonight, knowing the votes are 50/50.

Would you like to claim your congressional medal of honor or have it sent in the mail??

[–] mononoke_hime 16 years ago

I would say Tristan.
He would have stayed in Ireland just to be with her even if he would have been killed.
And he was willing to sacrifice everything for her.
But I would also say Marke loved her as well but not as deeply as Tristan.
This movie just makes me cry, Sophia Myles is absolutely beatiful as Isolde.

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] holdensgal 16 years ago

It was definitely Tristan because she loved him back; Marke had an infatuation with her but it was never truly love because he knew that she didn't feel the same way and was exercising a right over her. Tristan loved her as a maiden in waiting (or something)and was able to learn of her character before he was with her, whereas Marke and Isolde had more dutiful affection for each other.

I'd like to tell her that's all going to pass, but I don't want to lie to her.

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

5 to 7...It's pretty much even stevens.

Starting tonight...People will die. I'm a man of my word. -The Joker from TDK

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

lOL 5 to 7 is not even stevens. If it were reversed, you'd say that Marke was the proven winner. Since its not, its even?

Sorry, it seems like when it comes to who loved Isolde MORE, the clear choice is TRISTAN.

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

Nope. I refuse to believe that lust is love.

Starting tonight...People will die. I'm a man of my word. -The Joker from TDK

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

Okay, thats good and well that you don't believe lust is love.

But the topic still is resolved. Tristan LOVED Isolde. More.

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

No it isn't. In order for it to be resolved, EVERYONE would have to agree. NOT everyone does.

Starting tonight...People will die. I'm a man of my word. -The Joker from TDK

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

In order for it to be resolved, the MAJORITY must be for one of the above. And the MAJORITY is for Tristan. This isn't a criminal case, deciding should a man be convicted of murder. Doesn't have to be unanimous, to achieve a consensus of opinion.

[–] hotaugustnight 16 years ago

In twocenttot's mind Tristan is the winner. Let's let twocenttot have that delusion. The rest of us know better and know that the issue is far from resolved. If immature love is all twocenttot thinks Isolde deserves...who really cares?

Now the decision is...do we keep differing or do we begin to list reasons to build the case for Lord Marke?
What do you say?

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

Let's build Marke's case!

Starting tonight...People will die. I'm a man of my word. -The Joker from TDK

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

Wow you guys are JUST starting to build Marke's case and you have the audacity to challenge my conclusion that its Tristan who loved Isolde more based on SEVERAL posts from LONG AGO that already built HIS case???? Why even bother? Why didn't you do that in the first place? Oh lets see... um, oh yeah you tried to and the majority DIDN'T support you.

As for Isolde being "deserving" of anyone's love, grow up. Its a myth/legend/movie we are talking about here. This is where you draw the line between discussing and being over-involved. Sad and unfortunate that you think I'm being, shall I say, INCONSIDERATE??? of a fictional character. WOW.

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

When my Marke/Isolde fansite is on the web, lots of fans will come out of the closest and you will look like the ass for not believing that love is love and lust is lust.

Starting tonight...People will die. I'm a man of my word. -The Joker from TDK

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

Wow you sure told me, huh? Sounded more like "you just wait, until I put my nerdy skills to work and then we'll really see who loved Isolde!!! wait till i put together my little fansite, alllll my fans will come out of the closet!!"

Come out of the closet is right, because the only asses are the ones who take the time to broadcast their obsession with their own conjectures on a storyline on a fansite dedicated to the jibberish.

For the record, while you love to remind me that you refuse to believe love is lust and lust is love, and all those other little switches on the same two words you like to make, I am a firm believer that Tristan did LOVE her more. And didn't LUST her. You're obviously too blinded by your foolish obsession with Marke to understand that clearly stated point.

But it really isn't worth discussing with you. Probably setting up that exciting fansite right now, aren't ya!! WOW!! Over. The. Top.

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

If anything is fanfic-like it's childlike Tristan and mature Isolde.

Starting tonight...People will die. I'm a man of my word. -The Joker from TDK

[–] hotaugustnight 16 years ago

Look who's telling people to grow up ;-D

The question runs deeper than Tristan or Marke. The question is really about what constitutes deep, abiding love.

Is it stalking the queen (Isolde) and her husband (Marke) in the market?

Is it jeopardizing the queen and yourself ( Tristan and Isolde) to meet in the closet during a feast for a quickie? And, in front of the king (Marke) who by rights of the time can have you both killed?

Is it lying to your husband (Marke) about your whereabouts? Is it betraying Marke's desire to please?

Is it demanding that the party who is trying to resist (Tristan) meet you or you shall die (Isolde)? Oh, what a nasty predicament to displease the queen!

The question started out as a childish one and ends up actually asking to one think about it! Delicious!

[–] akakoa-1 16 years ago

Are not all the answers to the question the definition of a tragedy? Everyone loved but at a painful cost and loss. This is what makes this story so good. Duty, honor, inability within the rules of the time period to just run off with the one you love. Heart wrenching.

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

Well said akakoa.

Just because its not the storybook unfolding of a conventional, law abiding, proper love, doesn't mean it isn't real. Its all the more real because it defied the constrictions around it. Regardless of the entanglements, EVERYONE loved, but Tristan&Isolde 's love simply ran deeper than Marke's. And why should that be so surprising? Their love had formed its bond first, and it proved that the laws of society could not even suppress it.

The questions that you pose prove the tragic love, rather than disprove it.

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

Whateva. Just watch out for my fansite, despite what many believe...Marke did love Isolde a whole lot more while Tristan just lusted.

Starting tonight...People will die. I'm a man of my word. -The Joker from TDK

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

Actually, Marke TRIED to love Isolde, whereas from Tristan, it came naturally and was equally returned. Marke's love was acknowledged, but never embraced. Honestly, Marke loved TRISTAN more than he loved Isolde. To free him instead of killing him was just an acknowledgment of what he already knew - that he could never love nor please Isolde as much as Tristan could.

And your fansite certainly won't be affiliated with THIS website, so there's no need to watchout, is there?

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

Well I'm going to put on EVERY T&I site and there are a couple of fans of Marke and Isolde here so I want them to see it. BTW, I am not going to argue with you anymore...You believe fiction, I'll believe the truth. Let's leave it at that.

"To have to sing in front of him was a bit like doing Hamlet in front of Shakespeare" Timothy Spall

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

No, YOU believe your own foolish conjecture, and I KNOW the truth. That is how we will leave it, because that is how it IS. All the fansites in the world can't change that.

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

Whateva. I KNOW THE TRUTH.

"To have to sing in front of him was a bit like doing Hamlet in front of Shakespeare" Timothy Spall

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

You think you know but you have no idea.

[–] pol-edra 16 years ago

Here we go again, once more with feeling...

I'm a Sidekick and proud of it.

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

The truth is...We have different opinons. Yours is not entirely true, nor is it entirely false and the same thing with me and the other Marke/Isolde shippers. Get a grip. We believe something other than what the movie states. *le gasp* *sarcastically* forgive us please for having our own opinon.

"To have to sing in front of him was a bit like doing Hamlet in front of Shakespeare" Timothy Spall

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

You're of course forgiven for having your own opinion, its just when you try to state yours as fact thats really irritating, and obviously just makes me want to provoke you even more, since its so easy to get you aggrivated over it!

But it doesn't matter. We discussed it, we measured out the opinions, and at the end of the day, no one's changed their mind. If someone had to base an answer on the above question with supporting arguments, they have their pick.

But my grip is firm on how I feel, and yours is obviously on the keyboard, desperately designing a website, seeking an audience that agrees with you. I just choose not to take it that seriously.

[–] lovedrive_matti_jabs 16 years ago

Yeah, that the whole point of it. Is that it wasn't convenient, it wasn't something that was expected of them. It was true love, it was real love, because it transcended everything. It transcended all the boundaries, all the restricitons, it went far beyond any meaningless boundaries that people impose on each other, it went far beyond this life, and this world. Tristan definitely was the one who TRULY loved Isolde. That's the whole point of the film and the story. Marke didn't even know Isolde. He never saw Isolde as a true equal the way Tristan saw her. Marke was practicing a marriage according to the custom of the times. It's absolutely ridiculous how people think that Tristan and Isolde didn't really have love and were just lusting after each other. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I shake my head in dismay every time I read comments like that. They fail to see that it was Marke who felt lust for Isolde, she was a woman half his age, and he didn't even know her since the marriage was arranged. After Marke spent some time with her, he did come to love her companionship and like her a lot, but his feelings were always superficial when compared to Tristan's feeling for her. Tristan's feelings for Isolde were those of the HIGHEST, TRUEST, PUREST, DEEPEST LOVE. He was her SOULMATE. He knew the REAL Isolde. Marke knew nothing about the real Isolde, he didn't even realize how miserable she felt. Marke just saw Isolde as he had his other wife/wives. Did he care about her? Yes. Did he truly, deeply love her? No. Only Tristan truly, deeply loved her, and she only truly, deeply loved Tristan. Their love was epic, true, deep, and pure and it was therefore something with real meaning and substance. You are right, it went beyond everything. No restrictions could ever supress such a deep and powerful love.

[–] GypsyNomad 14 years ago

ai, guys chill!
Besides, a fanfic is not the movie. I could go in and make.. uh, Juliet love Romeo's cousin! And make it very believable and turn the tides of everyone's mind towards them and forget Romeo even existed. He was a moppy guy who was on rebound afterall lusting after the next attractive girl (and cousin) to the one he was just dumped by...
I can see where there is an issue of WANTING a pairing to work so much, because of an actor, a scene or personal feelings. I've had that probably with other movies, where I didn't agree with the presentation of pairings and believing them to be completely off.
People have that probably a lot with the Bella/Jacob/Edward thing now. Where really all those little girls just want Edward/Jacob to themselves respectively and really just hate Bella. The argument isn't about who she should end up with, it's more about which characteristics any given girl finds more attractive in a guy at any given point. It's arguing pretty much "my boyfriend's better than yours!" over and over again where each relationship is different and different things work for different people.

And can we PLEASE stop with the lust comments? Tristan and Marke BOTH loved and lusted after Isolde. Obviously. It's not a matter of Tristan lusting and Marke loving. The opposite could be argued in turn. Hell it might even just be the actor's inability to act that's causing this argument. However what the director/screenplay writer and original author of the legend WANTED Tristan to be the one that loved her more. There are a lot of arguments on both sides and I've defended both, but the Tristan ones just held up stronger. I guess I'd just need more concrete reasons that Marke loved her more other than "He just did!" Stomp foot! and mindless insults. For shame!

AND it's a movie based on legend and interpretation all the way down the line! Everything about this movie screams fiction, so there is no fact or truth. But based on what was on the screen and the intended representation is where this question stems from.

I love that people are trying to make this about what love is. When in truth lust is a form of love, that can turn into more, or fade away. Companionship love is something generally longer lasting but can fade away or turn into lust. And nobody is TRYING to change someone else's opinion, they're just discussing it rationally and supplying their own tidbits and moments they caught.

[–] krisashley2010 16 years ago

Tristan was flat out gorgeous.
I dont care who loved her more, cause I pretty much wish I was Isolde.
Except for the whole sad/dying ending, I'll be happy with a Roman Bridge(:

[–] fantastical 16 years ago

Had I been Isolde I'd have gone for Marke, I thought he was better looking, and he definitely had better hair, and didn't have a sulking demeanor much of the film.

Marke showed greater love by letting her go than Tristan. Tristan's jabs at her for having dared laugh with her husband in public were unkind, and spiteful. He pushed her away for duty and honour, and then acts in such a manner, that is not love. Had he loved her, he would care for her happiness and honour more than his own yearnings.

[–] grumpy_otter 16 years ago

Had I been Isolde I'd have gone for Marke, I thought he was better looking, and he definitely had better hair, and didn't have a sulking demeanor much of the film.

Marke showed greater love by letting her go than Tristan. Tristan's jabs at her for having dared laugh with her husband in public were unkind, and spiteful. He pushed her away for duty and honour, and then acts in such a manner, that is not love. Had he loved her, he would care for her happiness and honour more than his own yearnings.

Ahh! A poster of wisdom and discrimination, who can see beyond the "pretty boy." Well said! I echo your sentiments.

(You might want to duck though--the million will be after you!)

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

Oh please. LOL. Everyone seems to think love is about keeping your feelings repressed. He wasn't mad at her, he was angry at the situation. He missed her deeply. He was a normal man. Watch the love of your life with someone else everyday of your life and you'll feel the same way. But he wasn't afraid to sacrifice. Guess you missed the end.

And wow better hair, yeah that makes the difference. There's love's fringe at its greatest. I'm not after you I actually just find it all laughable. I guess everyone's reading a little wrong by giving their reasons why , if they were Isolde, who they would go for. Not who truly loved her more.

For the record, his so called 'jabs' were the true feelings of a depressed, love-stricken soul. Any true love has its share of ups and downs, its not all perfection. What Marke and Isolde had lacked depth. It was surreal and forced, rather than genuine. Thats why Marke's love couldn't compare. It was nowhere as deep.

[–] grumpy_otter 16 years ago

I love 'ya, million. The bottom line for me isn't about repression. And in this film I think it is very much up in the air.

What I keep thinking of is my best friend's next-door-neighbor. She has a 17-year-old daughter. The daughter's boyfriend does things like throw rocks through their window, set off car alarms, and race up and down a residential street at 75 mph in order to SHOW HIS LOVE.

Love must be mature, measured, thoughtful, and kind. Love cannot throw hissy fits.

For the record, his so called 'jabs' were the true feelings of a depressed, love-stricken soul.

But if a "true-love soul" cannot control himself, no matter how much it hurts the one he loves, that is lust.

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

Actually no its not, its a lack of self-control. And the hurt was the long term effects. At the time she was hurting from not being with him. He had to learn to decipher which kind of pain it was better for her to endure - the pain of not having or the pain of having while in secrecy. At first, his reaction is to meet her immediate needs... but later on he realizes that it was not the best overall decision.

Its interesting that you think love cannot 'throw hissy fits'. Love is not perfect, but if it grows and is consistent with the heart's emotions, it can 'mature' as you said. It can be 'measured' and 'thoughtful' and 'kind'. Just because it doesn't start out perfect doesn't mean it has no other direction to go but the short pathway of lust. Did you watch the movie? Tristan grew to love her in a more mature way as time passed... he realized the pain was greater to her and to Marke as it went on, and made the more mature decision - he wanted to end it. He burned down the temple, he sacrificed his own needs for a greater good. He proved himself to be truly loving her in the end - had he continued the relationship with no attack of conscience, nor recognition of the final outcome, THEN he would have been lustful.

But as youthful and inexperienced as he was, his TRUE love prevailed. He is defined by his actions to the end, not how he started, not his times of weakness. And, grumpy, Tristan is nothing like your unfortunate neighbor's boyfriend. When did he ever go out of his way to do outlandish things in order to PROVE his love? I don't recall him ever having to prove it, he did that naturally. Over the stream of time his honest connection with Isolde and devotion to her moved him to not want to leave Ireland without her, to be miserable when away from her, to trek back across the seas with the hopes of merely seeing her there, to restrain his love, then to release it at her request, and finally to evaluate her happiness and do the right thing. Sorry but there's just no comparison.

Regardless, if you're neighbor's boyfriend corrects his ways and does just one act of humility to show his error in the past, the compulsion that moves him to do right by her would be proof of a matured love. You can't deny that.

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

Excellently put, grumpy. Tristan threw alot of fits, mainly EVERYTIME he saw Marke with Isolde. Even when Marke figured out about the affair, I say he handled it in a pretty civilized manner. Tristan, however, was so freaking pissed off at Marke that he only cared about banging Isolde. Isolde may not have loved Marke, cared for him of course but Marke on the other hand, truly loved her.

Living is easy with eyes closed

Strawberry Gusher

[–] irishgirly 16 years ago

Love contains lust, but it is not its foundation.

Tristan CHOSE to love Isolde. He could have just stayed for the sex, then left to England with no return or remorse for Isolde. Did he? No, he kept faithful to his word like an honorable man and continued to be with Isolde because he knew it was true love that they shared.
Surely it hurt both of them, but love endures all. Isolde didn't marry Marke by choice, therefore though she made the wedding vows, she didn't necessarily feel them true in her heart, which I think made her unhappiness show on the outside. I could see how you would think that Tristan is selfish for making Isolde 'hurt', but he didn't. He knew that they were meant for each other, and he knew that she wanted it just as bad as he did.

Love is decision and a feeling. Luckily enough, the two most passionate people in history had both. That is not a love story, that is just love.

As opposed to planet “Look at me! Look at me!”?

[–] CryptMistress 16 years ago

Heh. To all you Marke/Isolde fans, look at what I came across.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcRUxgYNEc8

Living is easy with eyes closed

Strawberry Gusher

[–] GypsyNomad 14 years ago

You know, I would SO love to see an actual argument from you. You clearly show your age and depth of writing ability on this board.
That said, I will make and ACTUAL argument for those on the Marke side, and this is not a biased opinion on either Marke or Tristan's real actors. I used to love James and now I think he's a horrid actor and whatever his name is I think is attractive and a great actor. My eyes are not colored however by my own LUST for an actor and a FICTIONAL character.

Now, the argument one of you COULD have made instead of reiterating the same old BS every two seconds is...: On one occasion Marke shows his love for Isolde because he trusts her. Without trust there is no love and love is based upon trust. ok. So when he's looking for Isolde and Tristan sneaks her back into the castle through the Roman tunnel, he doesn't ask her where she's been, because he trusts her and doesn't seem to care either when she tried telling him, he even tells her as much, that he trusts her. Even though he probably shouldn't since she's the daughter of his greatest enemy an all.

There, now see? I did that without attacking the T/I side and supported the I/M side. Even though I am for T/I's arguments more, though people do have a valid point with I/M arguments, they're just not as strong as T/I's.

[–] infesto 16 years ago

Tristan Tristan Tristan..does that satisfy your question? ;p

^^-mate, feed, kill, repeat^^

[–] milliondollarbaby1213 16 years ago

Perfectly!!!