MovieChat Forums > Tibet: Cry of the Snow Lion (2003) Discussion > folks, how can you know the history simp...

folks, how can you know the history simply based on a movie?


Tibet: Cry of the Snow Lion (2002) is a good movie but NOT a history book. It did show us a lot of valuable historical scenes. However, the way to narrate them is the key.

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Anyone who thinks they know about the history of the Tibet-China controversy by watching this film probably needs a reality check. The film is biased, but considering who put it out that is to be expected. It's not overly biased, which is good. It glosses over some fairly complicated parts of the history of Tibet-China in a very simplistic way, which is pretty classic for propaganda like this. And make no mistake, it is propaganda. That doesnt make it false, but it does mean it shouldn't be relied on as unbiased truth. It is a one-sided plea for activism, and the one very limited part that presents the Chinese side, from one random Chinese guy, was really quite dissappointing. Not because he just presents the party line, but because he presents only the worst and most flimsy parts of the party line. China actually has a fairly reasonable claim to Tibet (though that doesn't make torturing monks and jailing without evidence right of course), which is one reason why the Dalai Lama has changed his position from independance to autonomy, but watching this film you'd think otherwise. That's what makes it biased. It's an ok introduction to the topic, but understanding of complex topics like this should never stop at just watching one documentary, no matter how biased or unbiased. Anyone who wants to know more about the history of Tibet-China should read one of the better books by actual scholars. Robert Thurman (Uma Thurman's daddy) is a scholar of Buddhism who is unabashedly politically biased (if you can't tell from watching the film), not a good source for politics, but great for Buddhism, and the two are not coterminous in Tibet as some might claim, Tibet does not stop and start with Buddhism. I'd reccommend "The Snow Lion and the Dragon" by Mel Goldstein, as well as "Dragon in the Land of Snows" by Tsering Shakya. Both are very respected scholars on the subject.

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How can any nation have a "fairly reasonable claim" to any other nation? That is a rather dated perspective.

Also, the movie claims the Chinese told Tibetan's they were freeing them from the "western imperialists" while they were doing the same thing the british have done for centuries. Not just the british, the dutch, french, spanish, and just about every other western country in its hey-day.

I admit, I am certainly not an expert in regards to Tibetan history. I did enjoy the film, however, this does not mean I am stupid, or wrong for thinking the Chinese have absolutely no business in Tibet.

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> How can any nation have a "fairly reasonable claim" to any other nation? That is a rather dated perspective.

This statement shows how stupid and wrong you can be. Certainly it does not mean you stupid, or wrong for thinking the Chinese have absolutely no business in Tibet. But this stupid question does.

The question begs the definition of nation and the definition of China.

The concept of nation is something we human beings invented after hundreds of thousands of years living in less developed status. In the very beginning, there is no such concept of nation and it is only recently we started to have the concept.

The concept of China nation did not exist till recent hundreds of year. Even the last feudal dynasty, Qing did not even have a national flag and have to use a dragon flag when requested. Now we certain need the concept of nation, otherwise, we have no way dealing with other nations. The concept of China nation, when it finally emerged, actually represented a collection of the states and areas (probably hundreds of them). Tibet, like so many other states historically existed in China, did not form the concept of nation either.

Therefore, China, currently is a nation, whereas Tibet is not. In historical period, Tibet was a kingdom, or was a part of some kingdoms or was many kingdoms. But the concept of Tibet nation was not there though you or anyone of us, can push Tibet to form a nation from now on.

Like ancient Greece or Italy, there were no such concept of Greece or Italy nation at the beginning, all we had were a collection of small city state. When the concept of Italy finally emerged, it included these states. So you can say Pisa does not have any reasonable claims to Venice. But the Italy nation certain has at least reasonable claim to Venice.

Coming back to China, you can say Shanghai has no claim to Tibet, but China nation certainly can have. Whether it should have is debatable. I have no problem you keep your own opinion.

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"How can any nation have a "fairly reasonable claim" to any other nation? That is a rather dated perspective. "

Yours is a problem of definition. What defines a nation? Personally I define a nation based on ethnic identity, language, history, etc, and in that sense Tibet is a nation, but not a state. By that definition China is also a nation, loosely of course, but so with Tibet. What is defined as "Tibetan" or "Chinese" is somewhat fluid, since what defines a persons national identity can change from one region to another, or even from person to person. In this sense no nation can have any claim to another nation, since this does not involve any kind of "property" as such.

Now, one STATE can have a legitimate claim over a disputed area of land, based on who controlled said land militarily, economically, politically, etc. I.e. the U.S. has a legitimate claim today over California, since the state of California is subordinate to that of the federal government. Similarly, China has some legitimate claim to the land that we refer to as Tibet, based on historical governance.

Also, it's interesting that you mention the British, because much of the confusion of this Tibet/China conflict has arisen out of the colonial policies of Great Britain pre-1950. The Younghusband expedition basically made Tibet a protectorate of Britain, during a time when the Chinese government was busy fighting the Japanese. During the British incursion into Tibet the Dalai Lama at the time fled into exile, and proclaimed independence. Then the British left Tibet after India threw them out and became independent. When they did that, they turned Tibet over to the Chinese. Even during their presence there they funneled much of their business with other nations through China. So as far as the Brits were concerned, Tibet was part of China.

So when the newly in-power Communist government talked about "liberating Tibet from imperialists", that's what they meant, though by then foreign influence in Tibet was fairly minimal. You have to look at it from the perspective of the Chinese though to see why they talked in those terms. China had been carved up by foreign powers and forced into some really unfair treaties for over a century. This is why the Qing dynasty and the Nationalists after them were so ineffective, they were being exploited by other nations. Don't forget, Hong Kong was only returned to China in the last decade.

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Have you been to Tibet?

I just came back from there travelling around for a short 9 days. talking to many Tibetans. China is trying to destroy the Tibetan culture not as in the past by destroying their historic monasteries, but be settling huge numbers of Han Chinese throughout Tibet - even the small villages. What impact wil the train to Lhasa have - take a guess?

> the film is obviously anti-china
>
Go to Tibet, read up on what actually happened there and maybe you will understand...

peter

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> What impact wil the train to Lhasa have - take a guess?

My guess is that Lhasa will be a place with more economic development, better living standard and more vibrant culture.

Look at Shanghai, 500 years ago, it was just some small villages. Today, I see native Shanghainese are out-numbered by people from other parts of China (or other parts of the world). In fact, Shanghai become a prosperous place because of the migrants. In terms of culture, Shanghai is more dynamic as it absorbs other cultures and it also has more cultural influence towards other parts of China and world than before.

I do not know what Tibet culture should be like in peter's mind. Is taking a train journey instead of riding a horse a destroy of culture?

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"Today, I see native Shanghainese are out-numbered by people from other parts of China"

That is an interesting point actually. Migration in China is much more than just "Han swarming Tibet". HUGE numbers of people from inner provinces are converging on the metropolitan areas. Where people can make money, they will go, and for many in the middle of the country the choice is either go East to the coast and fight like mad to make a buck over the other 5 quadrillion migrants, or go west and find not so much competition in Tibet. If one were to look at the picture as a whole you'd have a much better claim that there was some CCP conspiracy to settle people in Shanghai than Tibet. At least in Tibet there is an actual need for people with certain skillsets to migrate there.

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Funny how two people's experiences can differ Peter. I too spent 9 days in Lhasa a couple years ago (and no, before you acuse me, I was not followed around by CCP officials), and my impression was that while there was a fair amount of Chinese presence, it was neither overwhelming, nor oppressive. There were signs in Chinese, and many people (many of them Tibetans) spoke Chinese (sometimes haltingly), but by no means were a majority of the people I saw there Chinese. Tibetans were working everywhere on construction projects. Granted, they probably get the lower-paying jobs, and Tibet is still quite poor, but I don't think Lhasa has been consumed culturally by China. Nor will it ever, most likely. Even in Shanghai you can find areas where people speak dialects that other Chinese can't even understand, but they've been living next to each other for generations. Tibet as a language and a culture is not in danger of dying out anytime soon.

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Can children not learn their language from their parents? That seems like the best way, since it would be their primary language at home. Who needs to spend an hour a day learning a language they would be using for 5 or 6 hours a day at home with people they know?

Why do you always state "Tibetan Buddhists" as those who are being unfairly treated? It has nothing to do with them being Tibetan, or Buddhist. It has to do with political dissent. If the Chinese government thinks that someone is engaging in acts that threaten their power, they will act as they do with any Chinese citizen, be it Han, Uighur or Tibetan. They are ruthless, oppressive, and authoritarian when it comes to political dissent, this much is true, and it is a sad state of affairs, but it has nothing to do with ethnicity and everything to do with their being threatened politically.

The Chinese government is also guilty of ecocide everywhere in China, and in some places much worse, like the northern industrial centers. Try and find clean drinking water in someplace like Harbin and you could pass for Sherlock Holmes.

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I'm reading this again and I still don't see where your point is.

You say, "Children are allowed to learn the Tibetan language in school, but it comes at the expense of taking other classes, other classes which are required to attain an education which will help them post-school. "

This is how it is in every nation with any kind of organized education system. Any class that is not part of the core is done "at the expense of taking other classes, other classes which are required to attain an education which will help them post-school".

Are native Americans given thorough instruction in their native languages in the U.S. ? No, not simply because it is not part of the national requirement, but also because finding people to teach those languages is a difficult enough task as it is.

Nothing is preventing Tibetans from speaking Tibetan, or teaching their children to speak Tibetan. This is far from the situation of Native Americans, where many were actually taken from their parents and taught in boarding schools, where they would abuse them if they spoke in their native language. Or with Aboriginal Australians, whose parental rights are STILL being undermined as a matter of policy by the state.

If the Tibetan Government in Exile REALLY cared about preserving Tibetan culture and language they would put a lot of the money they get toward training teachers in Tibetan language in order to return to Tibet to teach there. As it stands, however, they have a paternalistic attitude that only THEY have the real Tibetan culture, and Tibetans inside Tibet are just poor unfortunate souls who sit and passively let their own culture degenerate. This whole "guardians of culture" attitude is much too elitist for my liking.

As for the Congo, Vietnam, or any other example you can state, these have no bearing on Tibet, and only serve to confuse the issue. Tibet is not the Congo, nor is it Vietnam, the Balkans, Rwanda, Armenia, Palestine, or any other example you could state. They are all subject to their own specific set of circumstances which necessitate different actions be taken.

The Congo, and the "use of the nation as an imperial gain" has no bearing because European colonialism is completely different from what we are talking about in Tibet. Tibet declared independence in the early 1900s during a time when China was in the grips of dealing with not only several European powers, who imposed their own set of colonial agreements on China, but also were fighting wars with Japan, and a civil war with Mao and the communists. Tibet held onto that "de facto" independence for as long as it took the communists to oust the Guomindang. The KMD, now in Taiwan, to this day STILL claims Tibet as a part of China. It was NEVER recognized by any state besides the Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo as an independent nation. Even the British, when they took Tibet as a protectorate of the Empire in the early 1900's dealt through China, and ultimately ceded control of it BACK to China after they left.

It may be debatable as to how far back Chinese control of Tibet goes, but one thing is for certain, it was at least controlled by China for a very substantial period during the Qing dynasty (the Chinese govt claims all the way back to the Tang, but that's pretty loose), about 300 years, then there was about 30 years of "de facto" independence where Tibetan claims of independence were the least of China's worries. If the U.S. plunged into all out war with Canada (hypothetical of course) and Alaska declared independence, don't you think we'd try to rectify that once things got back on track?

Nationalism is nationalism. The idea that Tibet can only be free through independence is just simplistic and naive. Independence should be the least of the GIE's concerns, but it is not, because they can't get beyond that mindset that says, "I am different from you, and so I have to have my own state". If that is the case then why not give every ethnic minority in China its own state? The same people who defend multiculturalism here in the U.S. blindly follow the ethnic nationalism of Tibetans. As if in one situation people should be color-blind, and live together in peace, but in another they should be as separate as separate can be. You should hear some of the things I've had Tibetans in exile tell me. They'd be considered borderline racist here in the U.S.

On top of that, the GIE claims all of "cultural Tibet" as its border, which includes many parts of neighboring provinces that have definitely been controlled by China for a LONG time, and which have a very mixed Han/Tibetan (and other minority peoples) population and have for some time. If Hawaii suddenly voted to declare independence, you might rightly think that was pretty logical, but for them to also lay claim to California, because there are Hawaiians there too, that would seem pretty nuts wouldn't it? And yet no one thinks that the GIEs claim to "Greater Tibet" is unreasonable.

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