is tim gay? - Imaginary Heroes (2005) Discussion

[–] wlandolfi-1 18 years ago

While watching the movie last night, I wondered whether Tim might have been gay due to that scene you, novaj12, are referring to. Perhaps, he was not but he was just stoned on ecstacy so that might have led him to do something he normally would not have. Or, maybe he was a closet homosexual and was afraid to come out or perhaps, he was just experimenting. The movie kind of leaves this open-ended. Regardless, Tim's mind was altered due to the drugs.

reply

[–] DannieCohens 18 years ago

I just watched the movie and I'm not sure if they're gay either... oh yeah did they have sex or something because after taht there like like all weird and stuff... lol. I'm not sure.

reply

[–] xman5 18 years ago

I got the impression that maybe Kyle was gay. His non-emotional attachment to the girls he messed around with and his denial with Tim. The gay thing shouldn't be the issue, the issue should be the underlying incest between the half brothers.

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] brokenglass 18 years ago

rcourche, I think he meant Tim and Kyle, since Tim's dad turns out to be Kyle's dad (if I recall correctly).

As for Tim being gay, it never says, but I did get the feeling sometimes, and then sometimes not. Same for Kyle. I guess you're not supposed to know for sure.

---
"Soon we must all face the choice between what is right and what is easy."

reply

[–] jrcham94 18 years ago

As for incest, neither Tim nor Kyle KNEW they were half-brothers when they had sex. It's a non-issue.

As for whether they're gay. Kyle says he isn't (and I believe him) but also says that Tim might be "and it would make sense". Tim doesn't disagree. I think being on E allowed Tim to do what he really wanted to. And, yes, when his girlfriend wanted sex, he broke up with her. So, yeah, he's gay. And so what? I think that's the point.

reply

[–] sezboyz 18 years ago

i thought kyle was gay. when tim said "it was the X" kyle kinda acted dissapointed. "the x, yeah..." he said. watch it again with that in mind. and tim didnt have sex with his girlfreind becuase of the bruises, not for being a closet homo. so yea, thats my spin on it all,

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ben-772 18 years ago

Did anyone feel that the film hinted at incest between Tim and his sister? I mean the scene when they look at the stars and she starts to cry and they hug. Next time we see them, she is in the shower and he is sittin on a bed (her bed?) in deep thoughts. What happened? Why was the brief shower scene there?

reply

[–] dreamersconsequence 18 years ago

i thought that kyle had more probability of playing the "gay" role...he kept stressing that he wasn't, like he was trying to convince himself...but the weirdest part is they have the same dad!!!!

reply

[–] iheartyou122 18 years ago

if you think america is so dysfunctional then get the hell out you User

reply

[–] greenleaflink 18 years ago

Intresting, I think (Emiles Character) is gay, because when his friend clears himself he says 'you might be' and he shows no reaction, like its understood...he wasnt freakin out like the other guy, either way two horny male teenagers on E so stuff happens.

a great film, i can watch it again and just go with it..

reply

[–] snowsfoot-1 18 years ago

The two boys could not have had sex when they were on ecstacy, because ecstacy enhibits the ability to achieve an erection or orgasm.

reply

[–] rynnie 18 years ago

Well I just learned something new. :P

ryn

reply

[–] pale_was_green 18 years ago

"The two boys could not have had sex when they were on ecstacy, because ecstacy enhibits the ability to achieve an erection or orgasm"

maybe it inhibits YOU from getting hard, but I've never had a problem while on E

so I don't see why they couldn't have had sex.

it seems plauseable to me

reply

[–] sexymacario 18 years ago

Well from what i seen... i think Kyle and Tim are gay. Kyle kept repeating to Tim and himself... "im not"... maybe he's in denial? thats why he said that more then a fews times and trying to put it on Tim by saying "maybe you are, but im not". I think hes in denial. Tim i think is gay to because he didnt show interest in his girlfriend and didnt say nothing when kyle told him he was gay.

OR: there prolly not even much gay there prolly bi.

i dont know but who cares that kiss was sexy. and for somereason i loved it when he went and pushed that boi on the table and broke that bottle and scared the crap outta him was badas*. i thought he did it cuz he loved him in a way? i dont know well whatch yall think?

reply

[–] larry-411 18 years ago

The writer/director Dan Harris and Emile Hirsch make it clear in the commentary that this wasn't necessarily a "gay" episode. Although Kyle appears to have initiated the event more than Tim, and he may have had feelings for Tim, there is no clear indication that either one of them was actually gay. So the notion of them becoming lovers isn't all that relevant. Neither Dan nor Emile implied that the kiss was the main thing in the film, or anything even close to it. It was just one more attempt by Tim to reach for a way to dull his pain. It was really no more important than the fact that he smoked pot or took pills.

That said, any film is open to interpretation, of course, and the filmmaker invites anyone to put their own thoughts into it.

reply

[–] ObsoleteVernacular 18 years ago

you actually watch the commentary for this piece of garbage, the fact that Dan Harris makes it clear (not letting the viewer decide) is partly why this film sucks, it was made by someone extremely immature to the art of cinema

Last Film I Watched-
Au Hasard Balthazar - Robert Bresson (9/10)

reply

[–] larry-411 18 years ago

That must be why it won so many awards, was on many critics' 10 best lists, and his commentary won best commentary of the year (yes, they have an award for that).

But thanks for your intelligent comment. Using language like that is sure to win peoples' respect for what you have to say.

See ya.

reply

[–] ObsoleteVernacular 18 years ago

do you always gauge your standings by what other people give awards to?

Last Film I Watched-
The Decalogue:One - Kryzstof Kieslowski (8/10)

reply

[–] larry-411 18 years ago

No, I was simply making the point that people who decide whether or not a film is worthy of an award, as well as real critics, do not use words like "garbage" and "this film sucks" and that the director is "extremely immature."

Even critics who disliked it use more intelligent language. That way, people respect what they have to say.

For all you know, I could have hated it. But I wouldn't call it garbage. I would say why I disliked it.

Funny how whenever someone dislikes a film, and someone else mentions awards it has won, the person says something like, "do you always gauge your opinion on awards it has won?"

As if it's never worth mentioning. Let's just ignore all awards then. Even the ones given for films that you do like.

Hell, let's not even give awards. After all, who needs them? Filmmakers should only take their cue by what critics and viewers say, not what their peers say.

reply

[–] ObsoleteVernacular 18 years ago

"For all you know, I could have hated it. But I wouldn't call it garbage. I would say why I disliked it."
Good for you, you should start writing your column.

"As if it's never worth mentioning. Let's just ignore all awards then. Even the ones given for films that you do like."
Sounds like a plan to me.

"Hell, let's not even give awards. After all, who needs them? Filmmakers should only take their cue by what critics and viewers say, not what their peers say."
I agree on the first part but definitely not on the last. Filmmakers should not take their cue from critics, viewers, awards, audiences of anykind. They should strive to make art, and they should make for themselves. Art shouldnt be judge and campaigned for, even though half the films at the Oscars I wouldnt consider art.

here's a quote for you: "all they do is give out awards out here, best fascist dictator: Adolf Hitler"
hopefully you've atleast seen this film.

Last Film I Watched-
The Decalogue:One - Kryzstof Kieslowski (8/10)

reply

[–] larry-411 18 years ago

I said: "Filmmakers should only take their cue by what critics and viewers say, not what their peers say."

========================

You said: Filmmakers should not take their cue from critics, viewers, awards, audiences of anykind. They should strive to make art, and they should make for themselves. Art shouldnt be judge and campaigned for, even though half the films at the Oscars I wouldnt consider art.

=========================

No no...I was being sarcastic. I agree with you. So then we are in agreement on all 3 points.

reply

[–] jononfire 18 years ago

You certainly occupy yourself with distinguished and esoteric film fare, bartonhudsucker. Perhaps there's hope that you'll sharpen but temper your film comments as you move along.

"Believe not what you wish to believe, but what in truth you can"

reply

[–] ObsoleteVernacular 18 years ago

jvvcjr: yes i do watch more obscure films, not because they're obscure but usually they're better than this symphony for tin ears you call Imaginary Heroes.
And i recommend watching these films, although some people who lack the capacity for abstract thought will call you pretentious because they recognize that they watch crap and you dont and thats the only word that they have been fed that works because the main thing they want to do is criticize.

Last Film I Watched-
The Decalogue:One - Kryzstof Kieslowski (8/10)

reply

[–] jononfire 18 years ago

bartonhudsucker, I understand what you're saying, but as a person of very eclectic tastes, I don't think that appreciating one kind of film precludes enjoying another. Probably at least half of the films I watch would be labelled obscure or even overly intellectual by most viewers, and many of those works are among my favorites. But I recognize the fact that Hollywood-type films - e.g., Brokeback Mountain - often have much that is worthy to say, and that those films are a very potent force in communications today and must be recognized. Actually, I admire most those films that have a common touch and something to say. And I think that IM has that, in this age in which the family is greatly embattled by forces such as those depicted here. There are contrivances, sure, but you and I, at least, can see through that to the good stuff.

"Believe not what you wish to believe, but what in truth you can"

reply

[–] ObsoleteVernacular 18 years ago

what are some of these overly intellectual films that are your favorites?

Brokeback Mountain isnt a Hollywood film by the way, its a Focus Feature, which is an independent branch of Universal, at least not totally Hollywood, plus it's made by Ang Lee, a director with a lot of independent background, and yes I liked it too. But im not easily swayed by a film like Imaginary Heroes, its a film that not only wants to be good, it already thinks its good, the actors deliver the lines as if they're Aristotle, as if the director wants you to say under your breath "how deep" and I think its completely annoying, unintelligent and unoriginal.

Last Film I Watched-
Citizen Kane(2nd) - Orson Welles(10/10)

reply

[–] kered13 18 years ago

It's funny how bartonhudsucker is throwing around the fact that he watches these self-proclaimed "obscure" films, when in his profile he basically lists 40 mainstream Hollywood movies, albeit some of them around 50 years old, in his top 50. Call it what you want, but buddy you're purely grasping at straws by saying Brokeback Mountain isn't Hollywood because one of the companies that worked on it wasn't based there. People like you make me so angry. The only reason you would watch a good film is so you could come on here and gloat about it. Why don't you actually start watching cinema for the enjoyment of it, rather than to attack other peoples opinions. It will make you much happier, and you'll probably also start to understand films a bit more if you aren't inherently angry and out to make fun of people for enjoying something you thought wasn't good. You've already completely missed the point of watching movies, so I suggest you just do us all a favour and stick to something like Disney so you won't beable to inject your inane and ignorant commentary towards the rest of us people who just want to watch films. Actually I'm sure you'd still find a way to do that even if you stuck with Disney.

The cinema is truth 24 times a second - Jean-Luc Godard

reply

[–] ObsoleteVernacular 18 years ago

where to start
first of all, i wasnt "throwing around" the fact that i watch obscure films, another poster mentioned that i had watched some and i told him that films that usually fall into the category of obscure usually, not alwasys, fall into my taste

second of all, do you call these mainstream Hollywood films:
Persona
The 400 Blows
Diary of a Country Priest
Days of Heaven
Tokyo Story
McCabe and Mrs. Miller
Stardust Memories
A Woman Under the Influence
Winter Light
Jules et Jim
A Woman Is A Woman
Miller's Crossing
Solyaris
Harold and Maude
Masculin Feminin
Stroszek
Crimes and Misdemeanors
Barton Fink
Dancer in the Dark
Chungking Express
3-Iron

if you do, i strongly disagree and would gladly debate it

The only reason you would watch a good film is so you could come on here and gloat about it. Why don't you actually start watching cinema for the enjoyment of it, rather than to attack other peoples opinions.

man, you got me pinpointed, because im at the Imaginary Heroes board all the time, why is it people have a problem with people coming to a board and spreading negative comments instead of inutile good comments, i agree with a comment Truffat made about his critically form, its always more interesting to critique a film than to merely praise it

i could also make the argument that all you do is watch films so you can go to boards where people are talking negative about them and tell them they're stupid and that they make you angry am i suppose to be mad that i made you angry?

oh, by the way, nice Le Petit Soldat quote, why dont you try quoting something i couldnt find quoted in any film library section in less than five minutes

p.s. i love a good Hollywood film as much as any other type, they just dont come around as often, that was my main point, sorry it flew over your head so you could make an idiotic pedantic rave based on a misunderstanding by yourself

Last Film I Watched:
Zelig - Woody Allen(8/10)

reply

[–] kered13 18 years ago

I guess you missed the point completely too. Have you ever been to France or Quebec? Probably not right. Well, just because a film is 40 years old and is in another language does not make it obscure. Seeing as I grew up in Quebec watching basically every French film you have listed there on basic cable, I think you need to re-evaluate your idea of what is mainstream and what isn't. Quebec is a large province. There are over 3 million people living in Montreal. There are over 8 million living in Paris, France alone. I'm not saying everybody in those large cities watches those movies, but your entire arguement has been shot dude. Go to either of those places and middle aged people are going to look at you like you're an idiot when you start going off on how Truffaut and Godard are undiscovered messiah's in America. I'm sorry but it just makes me angry when people like you come here acting like your *beep* don't stink and that every movie you watch is so awesome and obscure and anybody who disagrees with you is automatically wrong. I know people like you in real life, I see them every day. You're nothing special dude, and neither are your rantings about how the director of this films is a total buffoon because he decided to shed some light on something people will question in this film. I wouldn't have needed to call you out if you didn't just completely dismiss the maker as a moron for doing something to help other people, then telling everyone here how cool you are.

Granted, you're not a total jackass though. I can at least give you credit for trying to give those films a try, albeit for the wrong reasons. Oh, and next time you're going to try and argue with me, I think you can do something better than insulting my signature. I mean, I don't even want to get started on yours and the utter outrageuous pretentiousness it radiates. But I'm glad it took you 5 head scratching minutes in a film library section to find out where mine was from.

The cinema is truth 24 times a second - Jean-Luc Godard

reply

[–] ObsoleteVernacular 18 years ago

I guess you missed the point completely too

iguess so

but so did you, i was just listing all the films that were not Hollywood, i didnt proclaim them to be obscure, thats all

i dont know if you are taking my typing in a different tone, but i dont remember acting in the way you claim, the only reason obscure films were brought up is because other people started the conversation, i did not jump out of nowhere and say i was cool

Oh, and next time you're going to try and argue with me, I think you can do something better than insulting my signature. I mean, I don't even want to get started on yours and the utter outrageuous pretentiousness it radiates. But I'm glad it took you 5 head scratching minutes in a film library section to find out where mine was from.

first of all i already knew what the signature was from, and yes i have seen in in many library books/sections, anyway my signature is only meant as a conversation stimulator, which is mainly a catalyst for conversation and my main spot, the Citizen Kane boards, where others have the same sig and we all know each other and enjoy others conversation and talking about the recent films we've seen and how or if we followed other's reccomendations.

anyway, no hard feelings on this side, just dont take my typing in the most extreme ways

Last Film I Watched:
M. Hulot's Holiday - Jacques Tati(8/10)

reply

[–] victoria_alesa 18 years ago

i think your right, sexymacario,it was sexy. And i think tim is gay, but kyle isnt.

reply

[–] Nagime 17 years ago

The thing that makes me more clear that Tim IS gay and LIKES kyle is when in the after-sex he dreams that Kyle woke up and beat him up. I mean, he was probably afraid that now Kyle discovered that he likes him... that's how i interpreted, at least... But of course, Kyle likes Tim a lot to, as shown in his reaction when the school bully beats Tim...

They cared a lot for each other, (AND NOT BECAUSE SOME MYSTICAL RELATION AS THEY ARE HALF-BROTHERS) but because they are very strong friends, and walk over the sex and remain as close as before... I think that Tim is gay, but I mean, the director don't say this or that... the viewer must interpreted according to his view... and i thought that was great.

reply

[–] HIfoxyroxy 18 years ago

Ecstasy doesn't ALWAYS prevent or inhibit erections. It CAN, but it doesn't always...That's a silly assumption.

reply

[–] sharpobject2424 18 years ago

Keep in mind they didn't just make out, they had sex. Made evident when Tims' friend began to explain; "I seem to recall you putting...". But that's a good point, he very well could be gay. I actually proposed the thought that his friend was secretly in love with him and was projecting his resulting frustration on Tim.

reply

[–] cory-byrd 18 years ago

Not true, erection and orgasm are both very possible.

reply

[–] kelticbleu 18 years ago

I don't know what ecstacy you did, or if you just read that somewhere but I don't know anyone who ever did "X" that had a problem with getting turned on, getting an erection, or having an orgasm. I won't SAY I know this from experience, but "A friend" of mine told me that he really likes sex and "X".

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ObsoleteVernacular 18 years ago

im sorry, so did you come here to talk about the film or make random condescending remarks about America, i dont mind if u dont like America but make it in context at least if you're going to make a statement.

Last Film I Watched
Eros-Wong Kar Wai, Soderebrgh, Antonioni (8/10)

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] chaplina888 18 years ago

hi rcourche, i saw your post on one of the Chumscrubber boards and you sound like a real cool level-headed Dad. I read a few of your other posts and came across your "I used to love america..." one; there's nothing I can say apart from that I'm sorry for your loss.

reply

[–] ObsoleteVernacular 18 years ago

did you come here to talk about the film or just make your stance known on America? By the way, you didnt do a real good job explaining that anyway, did your son kill himself because of America?

Last Film I Watched
Match Point(3rd)-Woody Allen(8/10)

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ObsoleteVernacular 18 years ago

With all sympathy and sensitivity towards your loss, as im sure it is unbelievable hard to lose a child or close family member, even though my sentiments towards suicide arent exactly the kindest towards the lost(i guess thats the way to put it). But i would hope that if my brother or sister or parent killed themselves, i would'nt senselessly condemn a whole country.
That aside, my point from the beginning was to point out to you that your first post was irrelevant, atleast in the way it was presented, and it was a blanket statement about america that was made you look like you were begging for an explanation.
Im not calling you dumb or anything (im sure your intellgience is adequate) but if you dont want to look dumb than dont just make blank irrelevant statements like that. If you have something to contribute to the discussion of the film, i would be glad to hear it.

Last Film I Watched
L'Eclisse - Michelangelo Antonioni(9/10)

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] jeebusenroute 18 years ago

What does that have to do with the film?

"I don't know about what happened. . . because once you start writing, it all becomes fiction."

reply

[–] ObsoleteVernacular 18 years ago

exactly!?

Last Film I Watched
Breathless - Jean-Luc Godard(9/10)

reply

[–] cass65 18 years ago

First off I didn’t really get the impression that Tim or Kyle were gay, both were stoned on E not really thinking about what they were getting themselves into. I think Kyle may have been more interested in experimenting then Tim and Tim well just kind of went along with it, Kyle was much more sexually experienced. And for clarification when Tim turned down his girlfriend and broke up with her, it had nothing to do with his sexual orientation. He initiated the sex between them at the party, he freaked out because she saw the bruises all over his body and started questioning him about them. Instead of talking to her he just broke it off right then and there, him not talking to people and letting them in seemed to be a Travis family trait. Who knows if either boy was gay, who cares because I don’t think their relationship was ever about them liking each other sexually, I think it was really about them being friends and now this really weird and uncomfortable thing has happened between them. Obviously, they got over and remained friends/ half-brothers, I was happy with the ending, the family finally started speaking and addressing some serious issues going on with them.

Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son.

reply

[–] jononfire 18 years ago

I think that when two dudes have sex, it's never about the two of them actually being nonetheless straight, but about which one (or both) of them is actually gay.

"Believe not what you wish to believe, but what in truth you can"

reply

[–] Sammy2k 18 years ago

I got the impression that, if either of them were gay, it was Kyle. After it happens Tim is the one saying that it was just the ecstacy and if you watch Kyle in that scene you will see that he doesn't think the same... that it was more than just the ecstacy... but in the end reluctantly agrees with Tim.

reply

[–] xshimmer 18 years ago

Every country is home to dysfunctional, twisted families. It doesn't matter where you go.

As for the topic, I believe Tim was just experiementing and he was caught in a vulnerable moment. I guess it's possible they're both bisexual but the way Kyle initiated the encounter and the way you saw his mannerisms around girls made me think he might be gay.

Satan is clearly trying to confuse us, just like when he put those dinosaur bones in the ground.

reply

[–] QueenQueef 18 years ago

I don't think Tim is gay. And I don't think they had sex. When he said "I seem to remember putting my--" or whatever he says, I think its a reference to his tongue. Because I'm sure if I had sex with my best friend, I wouldn't be able to look at them again.
Maybe Kyle really does love him, but I think it is because they are connected through the same father. So its more of a family love? Im crazy
And he might be gay, but I don't see how it really matters.

reply

[–] lillah_7 17 years ago

Is that what he's saying? I though he said, "YOU seem to remember, putting on YOUR"... and I always though he meant Tim's pants, but I never quite understood it fully... I feel stupid now.
Anyway, to get on topic... I think Kyle somewhere must have thought about Tim in a romantic way and was comfortable with it too (being the experienced and all), until they had sex and he suddenly felt uneasy. And as for Tim... I think he just went along with it but, IMHO, also had been thinking in the same direction as Kyle. More or less.

reply

[–] Thrusthamster 17 years ago

SPOILERINO

I think it's kind of funny that he basically made out with his brother. :-p

END SPOILERINO

reply

[–] b_adw 17 years ago

I think the way Kyle acted towards Tim's response ("it was the E") seemed to suggest that HE was the one who might be gay. He tries to deny it and "accuses" Tim. Also, during the kissing scene it seems Kyle is the one to be moving forward and initiating the act.

Just the feeling I got from the situation, anyway.

reply

[–] JeterzGirlNJersey 17 years ago

I agree, b_adw. I definitely think Kyle is gay but Tim very well could be too.

It's nobody's business but ours.

reply

[–] keyjo 17 years ago

Take away all the social and religious hang-ups, bisexuality it the human norm. Given the right circumstances, Freud concluded this anyway, and from what I've seen, it's true. Europe is much more open to this and more literate societies. It is not unusual for "best friends" to become very close, emotionally attached and eventually emotionally-sexually attracted. Sometimes there is a slight catalyst, sometimes on its own. It is very common, though often denied, for two male friends like this to experiment and even have a secret sexual relationship, exclusive only to them. Had they not been overwhelmed by Conservative American Socialization, they more than likely could have enjoyed such a physical relationship.

reply

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Dat_New_New_Buttah 16 years ago

Internet is serious business.

Why so serious?

reply

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]