MovieChat Forums > Stage Beauty (2004) Discussion > So....do you think Ned loves Maria in th...

So....do you think Ned loves Maria in the movie?


It doesn't really show that much affection from Ned to Maria in the movie though, which is a little disappointed to me.
But still, I like this movie a lot.
What do you think?

reply

They had sex. This may be a slight hint that they were intimate and he may have loved her. Also, he was able to play a man (opposite her) for the first time in his life, after kissing her and sleeping with her. This gives the viewer more slight hints.

At the end of the movie I was expecting to see Billy's character say something like "You make me feel like a man" or "I love you" or something but I think that would have been corny and the audience gets the idea anyway that there is something special that has transpired.

reply

Um, pardon me, but they only rolled around in bed together. I don't believe they had actual intercourse. They got mighty close, but I think it's clear from their words and actions and facial expressions that the actual "act" was not happening. Plus I don't think they would have depicted things so blatantly if the sex act was supposed to be occurring during that scene. The intimacy was definitely there - the staring into each other's eyes, touching each other's faces, etc.. but no sex. I have it on good authority.

Another point: being with her was not the first time he would have played "the man." Remember as she's about to get into bed with him and he says "I've never slept with a woman" and she asks "Never?" He replies "never SLEPT." Implying, obviously, that he has had sex with women before.

reply

Interesting....

I never thought of "never slept" as being that meaning, but it makes sense.

I think Ned starts to have feelings for Maria, not necessarily LOVE but, I guess he admires her or adore her in a special way, unlike the way he feels for the Duke.

reply

When Ned said that he "never slept" with a woman. I thought about the incident in the handsome carriage and how many times he let women "massage" him. If you remember one of the noblewomen said something about thinking she was going to break her wrist.

Something else that I found curious was the first scene where Ned and Mariah were practicing. After she smothers him with the pillow he raises slightly as if to kiss her and she says "she doesn't kiss him in the scene." I think that Ned was so in love with feminine beauty that he was willing to play with her but not have the full sensual act as a man and woman would engage in.

Ned was sleeping with men, he liked men. At the end I thought it was interesting that he still didn't know whether he was the man or the woman. It made me think that not only were the masculine traits drummed out of him but he was "ALWAYS" acting and that there was no longer any Ned, because it had been taken away as well.

reply

[deleted]

Ok, but I don't think he had a mysoginistic mentality.

I think Maria was Ned's catalyst in understanding his "role" (ie by the end of the film, Ned simply replies:

spoiler....

"I don't know..."

I think Maria makes MORE out of Ned, not necessarily a man.

Anyways, that was one of the best endings to a film in recent memory. Utterly ambiguous and open to interpretation, but still satisfying.

reply

I always assumed that he was bisexual...although sexuality at this point was often something that was never defined.

I also took at as the whole never having slept with a woman as being actually sleeping; which is supported by the emphasis he places on the word "slept"...

The fire baby...it will burn us both...always and forever...

reply

I agree - moviecritic315 and brookshanks.

Brookshanks: "The way I saw Ned's character was that from the time he was a boy, all of the causes and effects of femininity had been deeply instilled in him. This happened during his critical, formative years and it altered his perceptions of sexuality. We don't know if he had been born with hetero, homo or bisexual tendancies, and neither did he. And in a way that didn't matter - the way in which he was raised determined his behavior. It's the whole nature vs. nuture issue. Are people born gay? Or are people born with the tendancy to be gay and the environment one lives in will determine their sexual preference?"

In bed, they were talking about how different sexual positions made you the man or the woman. But at the end, Ned said "I don't know," he realizes that it isn't important who/what your gender you love, you just love, and it's not important to put up those set boundaries.

I may get stoned for this, but the themes are quite similar to "Chasing Amy." The look and feel of the two movies are very different, but they explore similar societal concerns about sexuality and labeling. Is it that a gay man/woman just needs to fall in love with a person of the opposite sex to make them change their mind?

Actually when Maria asks him, "What are you?" I was expecting him to say, "Yours," but then that might have taken the movie into a different theme than the one we are discussing right now.



-

"I don't know about what happened . . . because once you start writing, it all becomes fiction."

reply

When he said he never slept with a woman I think he meant litterally. He has had sex with them.. but he never slept with a woman. I think he was being coy. I believe he went both ways.

reply

I think he was basically bi-sexual. But he was an egomaniac. The scene where he comes looking for a pillow shows that Maria understood that he knew nothing of love. I think he was beginning to understand what it was to love but he was a severely emotionally stunted man who really loved only himself for the longest time.

reply

Possibly...

Maria had clearly loved Ned for a long time, but as far as Ned being in love (romantically) with her by the end, I wasn't sure. I think he came to respect, admire, and care for her very much. He finally allowed himself to be open and vulnerable to her affection for him. Ned loved her platonically at the very least. But it was obvious there was physical attraction there - perhaps the beginnigs of romantic love? I really liked the ambiguity of this story, and how it is open to the interpretation of the viewer.

The way I saw Ned's character was that from the time he was a boy, all of the causes and effects of femininity had been deeply instilled in him. This happened during his critical, formative years and it altered his perceptions of sexuality. We don't know if he had been born with hetero, homo or bisexual tendancies, and neither did he. And in a way that didn't matter - the way in which he was raised determined his behavior. It's the whole nature vs. nuture issue. Are people born gay? Or are people born with the tendancy to be gay and the environment one lives in will determine their sexual preference?

I interpreted Ned as a man whose innate sexual tendancies had been either manipulated, stifled, or overindulged when he was a boy (during his training to play female roles). He evenually was unable to separate the man within from Ned the actor. This affected him mentally, emotionally, physically, and sexually. After having been engaged in sexual exploits with men and women, then having an ongoing affair with a man (Ben Chaplain's character), he all of a sudden finds himself physically and emotionally attracted to a woman in a more intense way than he had ever experienced before.

If you take his sexuality out of the picture, his masculinity was still corrupted in his growing years. So his perception of what a man is, regardless of sexual preference, had been grossly tampered with. In general, I believed him to be bisexual and capable of being emotionally in love with both sexes as well. I think the filmmakers, in one sense, were posing the nature vs. nuture question with regard to human sexuality and emotional needs.

reply

"I think the filmmakers, in one sense, were posing the nature vs. nuture question with regard to human sexuality and emotional needs."

Very intriguing angle brookeshanks!

reply

No, I don't think Ned loved Maria. He might have been walking a thin line between love and hate, but I don't think he ever really crossed over. He envied and respected her, but he wasn't romantically attracted to her.

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

I just had to comment that most people here seem convinced he wasn't with the Duke "as Ned" but rather as an extension of his diving into a woman's character/simply acting.

Well, I had to say that the scene where they "break up" makes me disagree. He comes to the Duke in man clothing, and doesn't use his feminine voice up to nearly the end, where it can also be construed as a fond, playful part of their lovemaking, as far as he was concerned.

In addition, he looks truly stunned and is out of words for a reply when the Duke "confesses". Like it never occurred to him that he was being used as anything other than himself.

Now, with Maria, on the other hand, he most certainly has a scene in bed "tainted" by his will to "penetrate" her femininity, after he's lost his. To me, that is fake.

I used to have a , but damnit do I want a !

reply

I agree with a little of what everyone has posted so far, but I think in the end, Ned was unsure of his feelings for Maria, his "new ability" to act as a man (I do think he finally saw the beauty and strength as acting a man and realizing he got the death scene right by being the murderer and not the victim), and who he is as an actor, not an actress. Clearly respect and admiriation (okay, a bit of lust too)were visible in the end, but love was not yet between them.

reply

Ned and Maria are both trapped by circumstance.

Ned has spent his life as an object of affection—both to others and to himself. This is all “love” is to him—objectified—a façade. This defines and limits all of his relationships, intimate or not, regardless of gender. It also defines and limits his self-awareness and his art. But as he is successful, admired and indulged, he is content and probably unaware that he is trapped.

When the king changes the law (Rupert Everett is awesome and so is Tom Wilkinson), his contentment comes unhinged. The challenge of finding his place in the new order stirs his humanity.

Maria is very human but she is an artist who is not allowed expression—therefore she is incomplete. But she certainly knows that she is trapped.

The kings edict creates circumstances that force two incomplete characters together in a way that awakens their undeveloped aspects and allows them to grow.

Is he gay? Is he straight? Is he bi? Does he love her? These questions are not answered. But the final scene suggests they have both been freed from their traps and the world has opened up for them--anything is possible.


Swearengen: "You want a donkey's attention, you bring a *beep* pole down between his ears."

reply

Wow, very nicely put, gmille13. I think that explains very well what is meant by the ending of the movie.

reply

"But the final scene suggests they have both been freed from their traps and the world has opened up for them--anything is possible."

Exactly. Best part too.

"It's not easy having a good time!" - Dr. Frank N. Furter.

reply

I think he loves her on some level. I have no doubt they will be together when he finds out who he really is – and she is going to help him. His sexuality isn’t as important as his confusion. All his life he has been told what to be, even when he is with the duke, the duke gives him a part to play. Thou Maria is strong, she isn’t dominating, she doesn’t give him a role, but forces him to define himself – to make his own identity. He needs her no matter his sexuality. And when I think they will be together – well that might just be my hopes as a romantic.

reply

You guys think too much...I think he loves her.

reply

well i see many people are clearly more capable at analyzing the symbolism and ambiguity of the movie, but did anyone catch the beginning of Ned and Maria faux sex scene. they were talking about a man and a man having sex and he was explaining how one man plays the part of a man and one a woman. she seems confused and says that she thought he said it was a man and a man. when i heard that i at first thought they were showing how even homosexual relationships imitate the heterosexual with a dominant/ male and passive/ female role. it made me think they were trying to say that homosexual relations are inherently reverting back to the primitive hetero and that was why Ned was able to start playing the role of the man in their little sexual foreplay. any ideas because it sort of confused me...

reply

With the life that Ned had lived up to that point.. it was as much as Maria could hope for.

I don't think the film would have been as good if by the end of the film.. POOF Ned knows for sure that he is 100% in love with Maria. After I first watched I so wanted it to end this way, but it was just nice that Ned was starting to find out who he was a bit.. and it looked like he looked at Maria as a person vs how it seemed like she was something he cared for as an object like his pilllow.

reply

I think he did love her from the beginning - the way he almost kissed her when they were practising together at the beginning and kissed her hand - but I think he never quite thought about it properly because of the way he had been taught to see and view himself. He didn't realise he did see her in a sexual light until towards the end.

He had been brought up to pretend he was a girl and so that must have messed with his head. His whole life was more or less an act and he was confused - on stage or off stage - which was the act? When suddenly Maria started to act and be Desdemona he felt threatened because acting as a woman was of course all he could do. Be denied that and he had no identity. Before he identified himself as a woman and spent most of his time trying to pretend to be a woman.

In the end I think he did find the male part of himself and became more comfortable with that - because of Maria perhaps, because suddenly freed from having to pretend to be a woman he realised that without having to pretend he was actually just a man.

In the end when he said 'I don't know' I think it was because he had found his identity and it didn't really matter because whatever way - he was with her and happy about it. He was finally himself. He was freed from all what he had been brought up to be and could do his own thing, act on his right and he could make a choice - to be man or woman.

As for sexuality... I think bisexual. Or maybe he was so far in his pretend female world that he never thought to look at women in that way before. I think he had had sex with other women of course - but just as a means of sex. He had never had an emotional thing with them like he did with Maria.

reply

I think it's pretty clear that Ned is bisexual, i.e. that he has sexual feelings for both men and women. However, there is a whole 'nother level. I think Ned is transgender. He may not want to "pass" as a woman, but he does identify as one. He has forever been confused about who he is, and in order to really love someone, as other posters have said, he needs to first accept himself. When Maria asks who he is, he cannot respond. I believe he is on the path to loving her, but he has to figure some other things out first.

reply

I agree with you - in the end he no longer knew for certain whether he was a manwoman or a womanman but at least he realised that he was not a stage beauty but a person. I do believe he loved Maria and I agree with your comment on his sexuality as well.

reply

I think that what we see in the movie is the first steps into a possible love relationship. The whole point of the final scene is that Ned has finally let himself out of the ridged box he put himself in. He's completely unsure if he is gay or bisexual or straight...he's just learning. At that moment he was making the decision to run with his feelings and not categorizes who he is as a person.

The ambiguity at the end of the movie is what I love about the the film the most, i think. Whatever ending you want Ned and Maria to have...they can have. The film maker didn't force his point of view about the outcome of their story on us. He left it up for us to interpret and decide.

reply

I think Ned does love Maria ... not sure if his sexuality really matters in that. After all gay men have been known to fall in love with women before ... perhaps because not everything can be labeled as easily and simply as we would like it to .... hetero, gay, bisexual ... sexuality isn't that simple or that cut and dry. Almost all the time it has to do with the individual one meets and I, for one, happen to find that a beautiful thing and deffinately one of the best things about this movie.

ask the spokesperson, I don't have a brain

reply

At the end, there seems to be love but it doesn't seem to be really passionate Romeo & Juliet type love. More of the kind of the affectionate companionate type love that couples develop after they have been together for a while and passion fades.

Possibly because Ned is bisexual and seems to be somewhat confused about his identity. Their relationship seems to be based more on a common love for the threater than any strong sexual attraction. Note that Ned never seemed to show any sexual interest in Maria until later in the film.

reply

You mean besides where he almost kisses her in the beginning.

reply

Good point. But he does pull back or was he interrupted before he kissed her. Can't remember. Now that I think about it, at least part of the reason why they don't get together romantically until later is because Ned doesn't respect her as an equal. So maybe she had to somehow prove herself to him before he could act on any attraction to her.

reply

I agree with those that have said the love story between Ned and Maria really begins where this film ends and their romantic futures are up to the imagination of the viewer. Maria was clearly always in love with Ned and was the only person who saw him for who he truly is and all that he could become if he stopped limiting himself. As Maria tells him, his tutor trapped a man in woman's form and left him there to die. That's when Ned realized how truly damaged and confused he was. I believe Ned was always naturally attracted to Maria but stifled it or passed the feelings off as something other than a man wanting a woman. By the end Ned says he doesn''t know who he is because he's finally free to find out his true self. Playing a man and giving the performance of his life does this and its all possible because of Maria and for that reason he has to have a deep love for her. This is clear in the look he gives her at the end when she's wiping off his make-up. Just hours earlier he hated her and blamed her for his death, now he realizes she's actually the one that gave him a real life.

reply