MovieChat Forums > Stage Beauty (2004) Discussion > The breast is NOT the disturbing part!

The breast is NOT the disturbing part!


Am I the only one who gets annoyed by movies where true homosexuality is described as a problem that can only be solved by "converting" to heterosexuality towards the end? As soon as homosexuality is expressed in a major film, one can be sure that it is only temporary...

I can accept that K's boyfriend really isn't into gay men, but rather transvestites. But K is definitely gay, no doubt about it. The belief that every gay man can be "straightened out" by just sharing a bed with a woman, must be the reason that lots of states in the USA voted clearly against every means for gay people to show their love.

Everyone is just waiting for the "happy end" they've seen so many times in the movies!

*sigh*

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The gender roles during that time period were completely different than they are now. It has nothing to do with being gay or not being gay, it was almost normal for someone to sleep with people of both sexes. Not that it was talked about, of course, but it wasn't unlikely. I don't think Kynaston was actually gay, anyway. Not in the sense that he was somehow converted back to theoretical straightness at the end of the movie.

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This is one of the first movies I've seen where it ends in a more hetero way. Sometimes gay people do fall for straight people. And sexual identity is much more complex than any of us know. Besides, the ending was a little ambiguous. Who knows where it went?

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i think the fact that crudups charachter at the start and throughout film shows interest in sexual favours from women shows he wasnt homosexual but bisexual ... so therefore i dont really think it showed him as being converted, just that hes fallin in love with a women (which i think is supported by the fact that when danes asks him who he is now he replies "I dont know".

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I don't think the question here was of being gay or being straight, nothing quite that simple. I think it was more a question of Kynaston seeing himself - and being seen - as a woman more than a man. He was more comfortable as a woman, with everything that entailed. He quite simply didn't know how to be a man, really, and so gravitated towards relationships with men, because this is what women do. However, the fact remained that he was physically a man, and so there was an element of attraction towards women, such as Maria. Confusion all around. In the end, I don't think he is "straightened out" by Maria, but that he comes to realize that he could in fact be a man, with all /that/ entails. However, this question isn't quite sorted out at the end (understandably - it would take a while to undo the years of brainwashing and personality altering to which he was subjected by his "tutor"), as evidenced by his final line, replying "I don't know" to Maria's question of "Who are you now?" So in the end, I don't think he gets "straightened out", rather that he is awakened to another previously hidden aspect of himself, kind of like he realizes "Hey, maybe I /am/ a man and not a woman..."

Quiet now, she said, you're waking up the dead...

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I would tend to agree with this analysis. Most of the Gay men I've associated with enjoy being with men as a man. Not many gay men are attracted to the sissy types. K is more of a transvestite than a gay man and his occupation and place in society allows him to be very out of the closet with that. He worships and identifies with all things feminine. Furthermore, his sense of self is almost completely associated with playing a role. He discovers something about himself by playing a new role, but this is really just the beginning as his sense of self is still associated with this role (which he plays with great skill as well). As the playwrite said 'All the world's a stage'. The question is asked of the audience "how much of our identity is dictated by the role we choose to play"?

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dude, I just can't be more agree. Kynaston seemed long been locked in the cage of his characters as Desdemona or so. This is the movie telling us how to reveal the real "me" through all the confusion.

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Wonderfully put, jaded_angel. I think this film was a really interesting and daring portrait of someopne with a confused sexual identity. If it really seemed that K was a gay man, i'd be the first to decry the notion that he just needed "straightening out". But he just wasn't. Look at the conversation between him and the Duke in the sauna, where the Duke says "I always saw you as a woman". Look at the gender-roleplaying in the love scene between K and Maria. He was a straight man trained to be a woman - not a gay man. That's how i saw it, anyway.

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But K is definitely gay, no doubt about it.

I'm sorry - but there are doubts - very obvious doubts and I think that's what leads me to write this post.

I do agree that there seems to be a disturbing trend of 'straightening out' films, but equally I don't think this is what this film was displaying. I believe Ned was "by modern definition" - "bisexual" - as shown by his reactions towards women, and his obvious attraction for Maria. Yet it isn't a simple "oh he's this" or "oh he's that" scenario, and that is what the film portrays.

The notion of "homosexuality" (that one could exclusively desire one's own sex) didn't even exist in the time the movie is set. Why is sexuality always pigeon-holed and treated like it conforms to some sort of code? It doesn't! Ned was a confused sexual character, not necessarily homosexual, heterosexual or any other sexual you can fit in there. He didn't even know how he felt about being a man, let alone how he felt about being with a man.


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My life is a comedy of errors, devoid of the humour.

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Here is what I just submitted in the reviews section:

A few earlier comments express the concern that the film does not "let the GAY man be gay". Some viewers feel that "Stage Beauty" sends a message that only hethero sex is normal and if there was sexual ambiguity at the beginning, all ends "well".
Some of the negative critics’ reviews on rotten tomatoes also have a problem with the representation of androgyny and sexuality in the movie.
My perception is that the movie did not try to send a message or convey a judgment. Throughout the movie Ned Kynaston did not self-identify as either gay or straight, or as a man or a woman. This constant confusion was made clear in several scenes including the end of the movie.
Today we understand that sexuality is better described on a continuum (Kinsey) and therefore it is almost absurd to classify anyone as gay or straight. In the case of Ned Kynaston the lack of self-identification was both in terms of sexual orientation as well as gender. Although the two identity crises were clearly related.
A critic on rotten tomatoes begins his review with: "Stage Beauty" is "the ultimate fantasy for women who tend to fall in love with gay men". This statement is based on at least two wrong assumptions: 1. Ned Kynaston is gay 2. Ned Kynaston stops being gay.
I think one of the many strengths of this movie is exactly this non judgmental, factual representation of the complexity of sexual identity. We seem to be making some progress in understanding these issues better as they are being addressed by more and more movies, like "Alexander", "Beautiful Boxer", "Brokeback Mountain".

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Oh my lord , I DO FOR your perspective. But homosexuality does have a long history.

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good point potolo, but not even that, i don't think kynaston is actually homosexual. not only was it basically the norm for men to have women and male lovers, maybe it wasn't talked about openly, but it happened all the time. not only that, he didn't really have issues about his sexual preferences, it was more his actual sexuality. he felt he wasn't complete without this woman inside of him, he was taught to be a woman in every sense of the word, and he was extrememly feminine. so he was following society back then by taking a male lover, but he was always doing what he believed to be true, that he was a woman in a man's body. transgendered, which is prob why the review talks about contemporary issues, which this is. transgendered people, specifically man to female, are not always gay as in sexually attracted to men, many are attracted to women, so theyre heterosexual as men, so when they become female then theyre lesbians." he had been with women and slept with women, though not literally slept as in overnight, but he fell in love with maria. he wasn't "changed" or "brought to the other side," not at all.

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i don't think the movie ever commits to putting ned kynaston on one or the other side of the gay fence. in fact, i'm not even sure the movie was concerned with whether or not ned was gay or straight. it was about actors fighting over jobs. the guy was always in actor mode. can you point out a scene where ned was being ned? seems to me he's in love/sexually attracted to the object of his character's desire. when he's desdemona, he's in love with othello. he doesn't really get hot for mariah/margaret until he's playing othello. don't you think? remember the scene where mariah is nursing him back to health after saving him from the cabaret (which looked like kind of a fun place, btw)? sure didn't seem like he was concerned with her as a real person or as woman or as an object of his desire. he strikes some poses with her and then tries to initiate a conversation about desdemona's dying scene, which sends her off in a huff. i think the sexuality issue was a weak spot in the movie. they should have tackled that or left it alone. because, as is, it felt like they were baiting that through the whole film and never pulled it together. i wonder what the film would have been like had they left out the romance stuff between ned and mariah. crudup and danes were probably just too cute and cuddly to pass up the mushy stuff. don't get me wrong, i like mush, but only when it's integral to the story. they could have told this story better without it. or, maybe they could have twisted the sexual plot in a more interesting, effective way. like, ned and mariah could've been using it as a ploy to get the roles they wanted. really, that would've been more historically accurate anyway (even though the movie doesn't claim to be historical.) back then, people were more concerned with surviving and avoiding prison/starvation/execution/the plague/flashing their privates in a cabaret than they were concerned with falling in love and having sex with the person with whom they were in love. and, furthermore, had ned been gay, he would've totally bonked the king! come on -- billy crudup and rupert everet would've made a much sexier couple.

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But surely the significance is not all exclusively theatrical. Underneath Ned's relationship with Maria as an actress, and his own portrayal of a woman (with all his talk of the 'gestures of female subjugation' etc), isn't there a fascination with the workings of female sexuality? Hence why their sexual play in the bed, following their jokey 'lessons on male/female roles/positions', leads to Ned asking Maria 'How do you *die* as Desdemona?' There's a lot of play on this word in the movie (used as a 16th/17th century euphemism for orgasm - think back to the Duke's 'flow of gold' line) - which lends a whole new significance to various things. Ned's obsession with the death scene, Maria's violent disagreement with his passive interpretation of how a woman should 'die', Ned's observation that 'women do everything beautifully. especially dying...' It's really Ned's stereotypical, passive/submissive idea of women which gets an overhaul here, and Maria's sexuality that he comes to face up to rather than his own. In a way. (Guess you could also bring in here the fact that the Desdemona they eventually come up with has Cassio on her mind - and therefore a sexuality of her own instead of being some pure ideal cipher.)

*reads back* Hmmm, perhaps I've studied lit for too long. Anyways, I don't think the ending suggests anything particularly happily-ever-after. It's a moment, and it's about two people playing with forces which they eventually succumb to, even if this might only be temporary. (That last scene reminds me, in a kind of reverse way, of the two boys in 'Y Tu Mama Tambien', which has a similar resonance for me...)

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Historically, Edward Kynaston was bi-sexual. He certainly had male lovers -- includeding the Duke of Buckingham -- but following the Restoration and the advent of women performers on the English stage, he became an actor in male roles, was married and had children. "Mrs. Margaret Hughes," became the mistress of a prince.

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