Kain alive without a heart. - Legacy of Kain: Defiance Discussion

[–] 20 years ago

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[–] milos-9 20 years ago

Well,correct me if I'm wrong but in the game you cannot "die". When Kain's energy (or Raziel's) reaches a low,they just escape. I do think they cannot be killed so easily and for them to be DESTROYED I think the reaper IS required.

I also LOVED the scene when he kills Moebius. Today I'm gonna get me Blood omen 2. Just to see what it's all about.

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[–] 20 years ago

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[–] milos-9 20 years ago

I still think the key is the "you have the only weapon that can kill me".

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[–] 20 years ago

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[–] milos-9 20 years ago

Yes but Janos wasn't alive without the heart in him. Kain is alive even though he's heartless. ;op Hmmm...then again...if Kain fights the possessed Janos and it is true that he must keep the heart beating in order for himself to remain alive...it would be a nice twist and a complication. I think he will get it back though. ;o)

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[–] 20 years ago

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[–] crory585 20 years ago

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO... ther REAL answer is, and u can check with the makers of the game... its because he is the scion of balance.. pure and simply that.
This is not a theory; it is fact since Crystal Dynamics have said it.

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[–] 20 years ago

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[–] i_am_the_grynch 20 years ago

They need a better explanation than that.

You mean "we" need a better explanation than that.

I'm curious to see how it'll play out in the next game. The fact that he's, technically, not a vampire anymore. Because if he were, Moebius' staff would've immobilized him. "The part of me that staff affected is no longer in it's place."

Personally, though, I FINALLY got Twin Snakes. So, I'm gonna lose myself in that for a wee while in between painting the models I ordered. So many hobbies, and they're all so expensive. ::sniffle::

Tread softly... because you tread on my dreams...

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[–] 20 years ago

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[–] passename66 20 years ago

if kain wasn't a vampire, why would he retain his vampiric powers? i personally can't fire energy bolts outta my hands or float or anything, maybe some of you can?

i think the statement "because he's the scion of balance" is quite apt. maybe kain's death to restore the pillars was figurative. he did technically die, didn't he? his death was necessary to restore balance. maybe something in the way he died and was resurrected is key to a physical act that will restore the pillars. maybe kain CAN'T actually die until balance is restored. i dunno.

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[–] i_am_the_grynch 20 years ago

Well, the reason I consider him not quite so vampiric is because Moebius' staff didn't work on him, because it only affects vampires. I know it's a stupid idea, and he's still like, 90% vampire, but maybe, JUST MAYBE, it'll play out importantly in the next game.

Also, Tymac, I didn't mean any offense with the "you mean 'we'" thing. It's just that, typically, games and movies don't answer questions like that. Thankfully, this series is one of the few who HAS always answered questions as such, kind of like MGS. What I meant, is now that the mind behind all the games thus far is gone, will the company and developer's take time out to create the kind of story, that actually makes sense, that the games have always had? Oh, lordy, I hope so.

And I don't think Kain's death alone would restore the pillars. I mean, sure, he could kill himself to restore balance, but he obviously doesn't wanna go out like that. He'll end up restoring them to vampiric rule, though, knowing him.

He does good work, yes?

Tread softly... because you tread on my dreams...

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[–] 20 years ago

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[–] KamakMild 17 years ago

because the staff only affects the heart.

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[–] gerfologist 17 years ago

Well what i think is that it was to be explained in a later game (which wont happen now :'( :'( my heart is broken) and that it had something to do with the fact that they changed history.

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[–] El_Garo 20 years ago

Okay, the thing is, that Janos, was kept alive, but dormant, by the heart of darkness, in Kain's case, Mortanius used the Power of the heart of darkness to turn him "into" a vampire, the magic that the heart of darknes holds, keeps both of them alive as long as it is beating... What milos said, about kain and Janos killing each other... PEOPLE! THAT IS THE FAIT THAT KAIN IS TRIYNG TO ABOID, to die in that battle, he knew all along that if raziel killed him, and raized Janos, the Hilden lord will posses him, that's why on SR2 he says "the hilden we walked right into their trap. Raziel, Janos audron must not be raised". that was what kain tried to tell raziel in the church.

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[–] 20 years ago

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[–] nicholst4 20 years ago

Kain can only be killed by the Hylden champion, as the Hylden champion can only be killed by Kain. Raziel only has the ability to change his own destiny, not the destiny of others.

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[–] 20 years ago

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[–] Pantherhawk 19 years ago

I heard this theory a while ago that Kain was dead when Raziel ripped out the heart, however when Raziel activated the Spirit Forge, that calls every Balance Guardian to itself, it brought Kain back to life, acting as sort of an artificial heart, that sustained Kain's existence until he could be healed by Raziel.

It is possible after all Kain does mention that he was compelled to go to the Vampire Citadel after returning to life.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] orioncali 19 years ago

I think the whole point of a next game will be that The Hylden were not THAT evil, just that they knew what it was that the vampires were worshiping, so their curse what not to damn them but to try and save them from the endless wheel... and I think Kain would have to back even further to stop the curse from happening so that the pillars remain under vampire control...

___________________ _____________
Inuyasha!!! SIT!!!!!

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[–] SirAnderson 18 years ago

well getting back to the original topic kain cannot die for one simple reason he is not a natural vampire, he was made through mortanius's necromancy powers and given the heart of darkness as a loner, also because he is indeed the scion of balance and we have seen him in the mural with blue skin and wings we know he will become an acient that is what all that has happen has been leading up his assention. The hylden to begin with were not evil but since all but 1 of the acient vampires has perished it is safe to say they are now evil because most vampires know nothing of them or the elder god, and i think kain yet again would rather see the hylden burn then help them.

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[–] cheongsam_kimono 18 years ago

As his role as the Scion of Balance, he cannot die, he cannot be killed, he is incapable of death.

As Griz well knows.

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[–] tw33k_2004 18 years ago

even with his heart ripped out, Kain continued to live because it was still beating.

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[–] d3rp 18 years ago

the history is modeled after destiny. you cannot escape destiny yet you can remodel history. in sr2 raziel supposed to kill kain in sarafan sanctuary, and later he supposed to be consumed by reaver. raziel changed history by deciding not to kill kain in sr2, so later kain could change history again by saving raziel. however in defiance eventually both events took place, as raziel killed kain and later became eaten by reaver. however kain couldn't die because he was scion of balance (and this function is not the same as balance guardian) and his destiny that has to be fulfilled is to give pillars back to vampires. however his death was the last event that was binding him with history, so now he has free will like raziel and is beyond the sight of elder god and moebius.

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[–] slayer60 17 years ago

The Heart of Darkness was used to resurrect Kain, and Kain was used as a vault to protect the Heart of Darkness. While it did beat in his chest, it wasn't beating for Kain. It would have still been beating if it was laying on the floor. It had been beating for 500 years before it was used to resurrect Kain as a vampire. The curse still kept Janos alive...and off of the wheel. If they had impaled the heart(maybe that wouldn't have been enough either), or burned his body, he would have perished. Remember Dumah in SR1, impaled mulitple times, but removing the stakes allowed him to live again. The same with all of the vampires in SR1 actually. Once he was turned, he didn't need the heart any more. And it seems to me that Mobeious's staff only affected born vampires, which is why it was able to hurt the heart. And while the heart was within him, they were connected. I don't believe that the staff would have worked on Vorador either. This would explain why Mobeious needed his hunters instead of just using his staff to subdue Vorador. Even Mobeious seemed a bit surprised when the staff worked to disable Kain.

"i think the statement "because he's the scion of balance" is quite apt. maybe kain's death to restore the pillars was figurative."

With Kain's purification, the circle was once again pure. All of the other members had been killed, and the finally one was purified without his death. If they'd of still been standing, I think that we would have seen the pillar go pure, unfortunately they had been destroyed hours before. This leaves me feeling that there should have been a time line shift resulting in the restoration of the pillars. But, on the other hand, I also feel like the pillars are unnessary now, as all of the gaurdians(and their binding energies) are within the reaver(including a balance gaurdian) and they are all held by the Scion of Balance. It seems like it would be an even stronger binding, if not as well broadcast as it doesn't have the pillars to act as an antenna.

Was it just me, or did the mural in the Spirit Forge room seemed to fortell that the two champions would become one to defeat the true enemy...

Oh, and was it just me, or did Kain look more like the Hilden champion with Raziel looking more like the Vampire champion?

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[–] Tedronai 17 years ago

Raziel was both champions, it was the "artists" way of showing his duality - destroyer and redeemer. Pawn and Messiah.

While i like the idea that kain and the reaver being a substitute for the pillars im not sure, i have always believed that he would return the pillars to their healthy state and return the guardianship to the vampires. This would be his legacy which the games are named after.

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[–] SilentSerenity 17 years ago

Well, all I can say is, after that cinematic I damn near had a heart attack cause I thought Kain died, and in my game kain owned raziel with his health and stuff, so I was pissed off that I would have to beat the game with *beep* raziel, but I'm glad he didn't die

"It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt."

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[–] mattintrepid 17 years ago

I think you'll find that the heart of darkness was only needed to return kain to life as a vampire. If you remember you have to stake a vampire through the heart to kill it, and if Kain has the heart of darkness, it doesn't mean he doesn't have his heart in there aswell.

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[–] Rani_Senka 17 years ago

My thoughts exactly. Thank you for being the shining voice of reason in a forum full of stupid.

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[–] Rani_Senka 17 years ago

Um, because it was THE heart, not HIS heart. The Heart of Darkness was put inside him to make him a vampire, but logic dictates that Kain's original heart is still in there. So all this time he's had two, and with one ripped out, the other one is still going to be keeping him alive and kicking. Duh.

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[–] Tedronai 17 years ago

No it was because he was the Scion of Balance and fate (call it what you will) wouldn't let him die until he has completed his destiny...his legacy...hense the title of the game and this isn't my opinion - the game's writer Amy Henning said so.

Whether his original heart is in there or not is irrelevant.

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[–] Pitchguest 16 years ago

There are many theories to why he was still alive when his heart got ripped from his body, but I've found that they've been reduced to just two. Perhaps three. The first theory is that since Janos' body remained in its perpetual state of non-decay when his heart was still beating inside Kain, perhaps it would work in reverse. And since Kain was born (or created) using the powers of vampiric unlife the Heart of Darkness possessed (or the heart of Janos, and the powers it -came- to possess), it would not be too farfetched. As logically, he would abide by the same principle as Janos did.

So when the heart was ripped out of Kain and reinserted into Janos' body, and he returned back to life - so did Kain. And as long as Janos still lives, it would remain that way.

The other theory - and what really isn't a theory at all, but a statement from the developers of the game themselves as well as the writer - is that Kain is the Scion of Balance and therefore he still alive. And until he has restored balance, he cannot be killed. Personally the latter is cloudy at best and personally I think they - or, should I say, we - need a better explanation than that. But I digress. Unless they actually plan to make another game, we might never get our answers - and I don't like to think in those courses. Needless to say, if they don't, I would be very sad. :(

Anyway, to continue: A third theory is, that the reason he's still alive is none of the above. He's not still alive because the heart was reinserted into Janos' body, and he's not still alive because he's the Scion of Balance - he just is. His heart got ripped from his body, but he didn't die. That's it. That explanation might not be too satisfying, but theories rarely are.

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