MovieChat Forums > Legacy of Kain: Defiance Discussion > The Ancients and Jewish religion

The Ancients and Jewish religion

posted 18 years ago by soaresbreno
14 replies | jump to latest

Someone must have noticed this besides me, but since nobody in this board started this topic, I will.
If you analyze the history of the Ancients, you should see a paralel between our blue folks and the Jews. I had this idea while studying philosophy of religion in my Philosophy classes last bimester. The Jews, formerly the Hebrews, belived in a god they called Jeovah (or Javeh), which communicated with them as a desimbodied voice, just like The Elder God with the Ancients. This god, Jeovah, tought them a determined way of life, and, like all the gods in the current religions, he reserved a punishment for those who desobbeyed his orders.
Still in this subject, there is a paralel between Janos Audron and Abraham. Abraham, considered to be the patriarch of the Jewish religion, due to the fact that it was he who spoke to Jeovah, and Janos, at his turn, is the "father of all vampires", and the maker of the Vampire prophecies.
Another interesting thing, though it is MY guessing, is the fact that The Elder God directed his teachings to humans after the Ancients became immortal. As everybody who read the New Testment know, Jesus arose as the Messiah, the god given flesh, after the coming of the twelve prophets (including Abraham himself), fulfilling the prophecy. However, the Jews rejected their Messiah and delivered him to Pilatos, who demanded his cruxification. Centuries and centuries later, more precisingly in the seventh century, Mohammed received the visit of the angel Gabriel (the very same who told Mary she was pregnant of Jesus). This angel told him the following: "There is only one God: Allah. And only one Prophet: Mohammed. I think God made Mohammed build a new religion to punish the Jews who did not accept his Son. The conflict between Jews and Muslims in the Middle East is a result of this (if there is a single Jew on this board, don't take what I said personally. It's just a theory).
The fact that Raziel's name comes from the Jewish Angel of Death is a clue to the influence of Jewish mysticism in the Ancients' belief. The only part of their creed which doesn't seem to come from Jewish religion is the cycle of birth, death and rebirth in which the faith of that blue-skinned people is bound. The creed of the immortality of the soul comes from the Greek philosophy

God Save Jerusalem!

[–] legion_quest666 18 years ago

It's a good sounding theory and something you've obviously thought through. The main problem with it is that the Elder God is essentially evil, Jeovah was essentially God, who isn't meant to be evil.

I dunno if you've heard the of Lovecraft Cthulhu stories, but the elder god definitely has a link with the squid like evil ancient ones in there

[–] soaresbreno 18 years ago

I am not calling Jeovah of evil. Of course a god have to be good and complacent (a quality The Elder God obviously lacks), but even the best god can punish his followers. In Christian religion, those who commit suicide go to Hell. If this isn't a punishment, I don't know nothing else, but thanks for the advice!

[i][b]Pantelís thlípsi.[b][i]

[–] SirAnderson 18 years ago

iam jewish by birth not by choice, but yes that is a good paralel to the faith of my people, i even agree with it to some extent but in the jewish religion there is no hell, and i mean none at all it was only when chritianity came about hell was invented to make people think twice about doing stupid things. I myself study religions of the world, and in BO2 the serafan were like the musliums of today no offence to any muslium reading this but fom what i have observed the muslums of today obey rederic from acient times like the serafan did to the point of fanatasisum like the serafan in gernal and the elder god himself, and not all monothest gods are kind.

[–] soaresbreno 18 years ago

I am relieved you understood my point and, since you talked about Muslums, did you perceived the reference to the Islam (The PILLARS of Nosgoth, the writtings on Dumah's throne room walls...) this deserves a separate topic.

[i][b]Pantelís thlípsi.[b][i]

[–] legion_quest666 18 years ago

I'm not sure that there was really a link to Islam, granted the pillars and the writing have a middle eastern twist to them, but i dont think they can be pigeonholed as islamic.

As for the Serafan being like Muslims today, i think that is over generalising, they could be compared to extreme factions of any religion, be that islam, judaism, christianity or so on - the easiest comparison being to the crusaders, what with the whole look of them in armour and castles.

[–] bascianomike 18 years ago

Awesome movie!

[–] Krush_Varrok 18 years ago

punishing people for something some of their ancestors did? how can that be good?

and the ancients also use golem-like things. and i heard the game's makers said gnosticism(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism) was at least an inspiration(don't remember).

[–] soaresbreno 17 years ago

This should be horrible, but, if you remember, there is a prejudice of the Western world against Jews and Muslims - the so-called "anti-Semitism", where Jews are famed by been deceitful because what their ancestors did to Jesus, and the Muslims, at their turn, are persued by two reasons, one of the past, and the other of today.

In the past, during the Islamic expansion, they took some territories occupied by the people of Europe (most notably the African and Asian territories of the Byzantine Empire and the Iberian Peninsula, then occupied by the Visigoths).

Now they are victim of prejudice because of the terrorists of Al-Quaeda and its branches.

Inspite of the theory I showed here, I am not anti-Semitic. I respect all the religions, and, as a lover of all the civilizations cultures, I would like to have friends of theese two religions to have contact with other cultures

[i][b]Pantelís thlípsi.[b][i]

[–] Krush_Varrok 17 years ago

it's just that at the time it seemed to me like you said you actually think god might've made islam for that reason, but now i see you could've meant it as other's belief, like in the text before that. just got confused with the structuring.

[–] KhaosKontrolled 17 years ago

Actually, I think you'll find Raziel is the name of the Angel of Mysteries (also known as the Secret of God). If I remember rightly, it's either Uziel or Azrael who is the Jewish Angel of Death.

[–] soaresbreno 16 years ago

Actually, Azrael is the Angel of Death of Islam.

[i][b]Pantelís thlípsi.[b][i]

[–] Silver_Toxin 17 years ago

And just like in the Old Testament, god is a giant, evil squid. I think I see it now. :D

[–] Orpheum1000 17 years ago

It's definately a nice theory, but I agree that it was nothing but simple coincidense.

The games seem to draw aspects from many religions, at least pieces of iconic themes and tones and weave them together. The world is called Nosgoth, and gothic culture usually includes various pickings from different religions.

I also agree that the Sarafan were more zealots than just one particular group, though you could say Christians, or at the least, Crusaders. Both waged a war against those they interpreted as evil bastardizations of the worlds.

Also the Elder god has been called out as a creature that only shares some god-life qualities (i.e: eternal life, omnipresense in all times) but is more a pest than deity.

[–] Solid_Gear_Metal_Snake 15 years ago

hey soaresbreno, I've been looking in this stuff along time ago and I also noticed that in jewish bible, if I remember correctly that not only Raziel is the angel of death but he also has brother angels thats names are the same as the bretheren in this game, it has Zephon, Melchiah, Dumah, Turel, and so on...

ironic coincidence and scary, when I heard of an excistence of a jewish arch angel named Dumah, I started imagining and began drawing how that Dumah would have looked like. I drew the form of a man with a torso that looks like a tumor filled with a 1000 eyes and an arm thats got giant bone claws dripping lava and in flames. When I read the description on the angel, it said, that he had 1000 eyes and a firery sword. SCARY.

I dont remember if that angel is a bad guy or a good guy tho

"Always be ruled by your heart"
- Lexi Alexander