Very profound on the actual audio tapes. "I rather live a day as a lion then to live a 100 as a lamb." The real sam byke and the one portrayed in the movie showed how quick a normal person can desend in madness. And if you look at america 31 years later there are more disillusioned people than in '74. Don't be surprised if something happens again like happened in 74.
sharei just saw this film and yes it really is great, how have you heard the actual audio tapes though?
shareThere is a history channel documentry (2004)about the assaination plot that is a hour and a half. Its available on the history channel website. They play a lot of the samuel bicke tapes and while he was disturbed, he made a lot of sense on those tapes. You get a better idea of who samuel bicke really was. Good or bad.
sharecan u send the link plz. it would be really helpful. Thanks.
sharehttp://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=44250
Its a very good documentary and well worth the price.
the movie showed how quick a normal person can desend in madness
There was nothing normal about Sam Byke. He was mentally ill. Any other conclusion is pure Hollywood.
Arent we all a little off? If a flurry of things happened to any of us, a lot of us would crack. Look at some workplace shootings and youll see normal of slightly normal people can crack.
shareMost workplace shooting are committed by people with a history of mental illness. There is a big difference between being "a little off" and being mentally ill. While a lot of "normal people" crack under pressure, murder is a very extreme manifestation.
The ironic thing is that a lot of people with mental illness can be successfully treated. People who are "a little off" usually spend their lives that way.
What is "normal"? I personally identified with just about every point of view that Sam offered throughout the film (points of view, not the actions he took toward the end). It was really depressing to see that everyone ignored him all the time (and one could infer that he had been ignored all his life). Who is in charge of defining "normal"...because as far as I can see, everyone thinks that their point of view is correct. According to Sam himself, he wasn't insane, he was completely sane and the world was insane.
This whole "us" vs. "them" game has outstayed it's welcome if you ask me. We all have different opinions on things and we all want to be heard. For most of human history, we only held up one end of the bargain consistently...that is, to speak our minds. But what's the point of speaking when no one is listening. We will continue to create Sam Byck's until we all hold up the other end of the bargain...to truly listen to each other.
I personally liked the film. I thought Sean Penn did a fabulous job. I don't agree with his perception of anything. When you reach a point when everyone in the world is corrupt or insane except you. That should be your first indication that you have some problems. Penn's character was constantly moaning about customers not getting a fair deal(tires or office furniture)but he was quick to go steal from his own brother. He was also a stalker,trespasser,and a thief(gun) No wonder everyone in the movie detested him(Cheadle put up with him) We all know someone like him in our life. You know the lazy/unaccountable/irresponible/crybaby/excuse maker/contradictor. I think I liked the movie because it was pretty obvious he was going to meet an awful fate at the end. People like him are better off dead than dragging everyone else around them down with them. Its just a shame he hurt all those people in the end. Great movie...........
shareWell the lion/lamb quote is quite a neat reference to nature red in tooth and claw - it is survival of the fittest and he clearly wasn't meant to survive in this world. What a complete and utter waste of space. WHo on earth would want to listen to some whiny, self-obessesed moron that stalks his wife, steals from his family and dodges responsibility for all the bad things that happen to him?? I wouldn't and I don't think in all honesty, you would either.
Life is rarely a breeze for the majority of people - but you just deal with it as other normal, well-adjusted people do. Sure, everyone feels angry, frustrated and bitter about some things, but so what? Sam's problems don't make him more special, more deserving of a giant helping from the sympathy bowl than anyone else's. The simple (brutal) truth is - we are all too busy worrying about our own lives to waste time worrying over someone incapable of dealing with their own.
His wife left him - happens to millions of men all around the world every year.
He hated his boss and thought he was a lying sack of sh*t - join the queue...
He had a business loan turned down - again, happens to millions of people every year. If he HAD got the loan, the business would probably have folded within a year anyway...as is the risk.
His kids were more interested in their dinner than him - maybe if he brought them dinner once in a while they might have paid more attention.
His brother was more successful than he was - not something a grown man should whine about.
He lied on a job application and got caught out - well, he asked for that really didn't he?
In fact the only thing that ever seemed to love him was his dog....and he shot it.
Fairly run-of-the-mill problems, the man couldn't cope, was obviously unbalanced and I don't think a nice cup of tea and a sympathetic chat would have made him any less unstable.
I think you're right on Rigante. What this film shows, I believe, is that often simple problems that leave one feeling powerless are the ones that lead men, terrorists, leaders, assassins to commit heinous acts. They can't cope, they kill. This film speaks on a profound level to the nastiness that surrounds us.
share"I don't think a nice cup of tea and a sympathetic chat would have made him any less unstable."
I agree with you, one conversation would not have changed everything, but it certainly would have helped. What I was leaning toward, however, was a preventative solution. Those sympathetic chats would have prevented the mess Sam Byck became if they had been available all of his life.
Sam Byck became a hypocrite, the very thing he despised about others. His hypocrisy was that he saw the world's potential and had high hopes for all of it. Yet, he was constantly reminded that he didn't live in the idealistic world he saw in his mind's eye. It was impossible for him to live according to his morals and the laws of the society in which he lived. According to the replies to my post, most people are able to handle this hypcrisy, but Sam Byck could not, because his awareness of the potential for the world was on all of the time. He could not see the world any other way. If someone could have helped him to understand the difference between ideals and reality, perhaps it could have set him at ease. For him, there was no difference between the two. His reality was his ideals. It was the way he was born.
From what I could see in the film, people just ignored him and wrote his concerns off as rediculous. People couldn't understand why he would carry such impossible concerns and grew indifferent toward him. But they never really tried to understand either.
I guess this is all very difficult to explain, but the replies to my original post only back up my argument. Each one of those replies wrote Sam Byck off as a lunatic. None of them were sympathetic to his concerns. People are not born insane, they grow insane. And in this case, the insanity stemmed from the fact that Sam would not sacrifice his morals to fit into a society with lesser values. Many people can split the difference, but Sam stayed true to his values and insodoing was pushed further and further away from society. He eventually went out the only way he saw that he could. The story of Sam Byck is a tragedy, but the path to the tragedy at the end of the film didn't start where the film starts ... it began the day he was born.
One last thing, just try for a moment to imagine what it would feel like if for your whole life, you never found anyone who could really understand you. Everything that you were aware of makes perfect sense to you, but everytime you tried to explain it, people looked at you as if you were not speaking the same language (a great example was the scene where Sam tries to sell his Zebras idea to the Black Panthers). If people don't understand you, then they really never get to know you. And if they never get to know you, then you really don't have any truly close friends or relationships, and whether you like it or not, your life is a very lonely existance. I don't know about you, but I can get pretty down when I'm lonely. And a lifetime of solitude would most certainly drive me insane. This happens all the time to people in this world, and you are very lucky if you are part of the majority that hasn't experienced this. But try for a moment to understand what it may be like. Sure, you may live in a place filled with people, but ultimately, you are alone in a sea of indifference.
I agree with your post Chaudlapin. Bicke's ultimate breakdown was a gradual process, beginning with his alienation from his family of origin.
He didn't fit in with his brother or father, having different ideals. His wife wasn't exactly the sympathetic kind either. Although her character wasn't fully developed, one could see that she put a lot of pressure on Bicke, primarily to make money--something which wasn't a priority for him. He wasn't the go-get'em money-grubbing type. He had ideals and, ironically, wanted to make the world a better place. His ideals, however, got twisted by having to conform to a mostly hard-edged reality--"it's all about money."
(As an aside, I don't think that if someone has a mental breakdown that that necessarily makes them mentally ill. Someone can have a breakdown from excessive stress. The term "mentally ill" shouldn't be tossed around with such negativity--being physically ill doesn't carry the same stigma. Whatever illness someone is living through should be viewed with compassion rather than stigmatization).
Some problems I had with the film were that we just got thrown into Bicke's life without really having much background info; such as, how was he before (we only have his brother saying he was always "strange"); how did he manage to have a relationship and get married; how was he raised; and why was there no mention of his mother, only of his father and brother.
"Fasten your seat belts. It's going to be a bumpy night."
Where people like Sam are concerned it can be as simple or as complex as you want to make it - either he's a loser or he had a mental breakdown, or there are endless answers to how his life could have taken a different turn.
I also think if you DO find someone who truly understands you in this life you are one lucky creature - can you honestly say you've never felt the frustration stemming from someone misunderstanding you? I'd say it's virtually impossible to completely understand another human being and so we all stumble around with varying degrees of connection, but nobody IMHO is fully understood 100% of the time, it's just something we live with. On an aside, I'm not sure I'd like to be completely understood all the time - what could you then keep back just for yourself if you're utterly exposed?? Eeek!
I felt sorry for his wife, I wouldn't want to deal with someone like Sam. In the movie I got the impression she'd suffered at the mercy of these 'ideals' of his, losing out on both financial contributions and emotional security. Sam came over as a mind-blowingly self obsessed individual. If you're a father, it doesn't really factor if you're not bothered about money, you have a responsibility to provide for your offspring and he seemed to consider this less important than his distaste for capitalism. Without more info on his previous life though there's a gaping hole, he surely must have been capable enough to form and maintain a relationship for some time, but we're left guessing as to what exactly went wrong.
I don't think his ideals were really the problem, I think he knew deep down that he inherently didn't have what it takes to survive and he found many reasons and excuses to evade this, creating a world where he was the well-meaning victim of machinations he had no control over. The ideals lasted only as long as they excused his failures, then the hypocrisy began along with the spiral of destruction.
The world is a fast-moving, harsh place and if you don't have the right frame of mind then you sink - it doesn't mean that the world has dragged you down though, just you're not able to cope where 6 billion other people are.
I have to agree. His actions at the end were heinous, but I believe that what he felt throughout the movie is probably not so different than what a lot of Americans are feeling today. I also found it especially ironic that his black friend was so much more willing to put up with the humiliation and disrespect of being a "lower-class" American but got so furious with Sam Bycke when he even hinted he might be an Uncle Tom.
I know I'll probably get called a terrorist sympathizer for this, which I am not... and I am NOT in any way condoning what he did at the end... it horrified me... nonetheless I have to say that his feelings -- NOT his actions, mind you -- were justified in many ways, and that I believe a truly honorable society would not create so many desperate, disenfranchised people. The point of this film is that there are thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of potential Sam Byckes out there -- Americans raised to believe in the illusion of the "American Dream" only to discover that intelligence and honesty count for nothing against greed and ruthlessness. I see that as the central, not very subtle message of the movie.
exactly!
exactly
That's entirely wrong. Most workplace shootings are committed by people who may be mentally ill, but have never been diagnosed as such or even seen a professional. And if there was "a big difference between being a little off and being mentally ill", we could make very specific rules about who gets committed. We don't. You say normal people crack. If that's so, there can't be a big difference. When someone "cracks" they stop following the rules of society and murder is just one form of that, not very different from the perspective of the one with the problem.
As to successful treatments for serious illness, the rate is at most 15 to 20%. Movies and TV give the impression psychiatry is more effective than it is.
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Joining a racial group that excludes them by design does not prove mental illness. For a start it shows a willingness to engage and change things from within. It shows compassion and identification of Bicke with his ideals and those of the group he wanted to join. another point: A lot of the posts mentioning mental breakdown as a answer to what this film says about Bicke as a person are nonsense. Bicke was not diagnosed by a psychiatrist or a team of psychiatrists as a person should be before that person gets condemned for what they did. I don't agree with what Bicke decided to do nor do I agree that he isn't responsible for what he did but what the film asks is what brought Sam Bicke to a dead end in his heart and soul. He stopped being human and became crazed and trapped like a wild animal in a trap. If he was crazy it is fair enough to say he was driven crazy the way a poorly treated animal can be brutalized into becoming crazed: as one of the posters on this thread says it is a brutal world; and the posters who off handedly dismiss Bicke as insane are culpable in that brutality unless they address their own humanity and Bicke's as equal in their own eyes and everyone else's. It may just be that Bicke had talents and something to offer society but society for what it was for Bicke in 1974 cast him aside the way you posters casually use mental illness as a way of dismissing his story. Everyone has some value when they come into the world, Bicke was undervalued, he offered something and he was dismissed, why? I'll tell you why because it's the easy answer. As simple as 'survival of the fittest': simple, clean and pure. Life isn't simple clean and pure: it should be but it gets messy and Bicke's got messy and he failed but when he fails so does a little bit of the rest of us because we are all in this together or we all fall together it comes down to that. Just look at New Orleans or 9/11 or any human tragedy.
what if Bicke isn't mentally ill what then? I challenge any of the people who have said he is mentally ill to show how he is! what are his symptoms? what is his diagnosis? are you people really just too scared to face an unpalatable truth about the world Bicke lived in and the people who knew him?
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What are his symptoms? Well, running desparately onto a jet, locking the door behind him, shooting one of the pilots (both actually, but one fatally), and then dragging a screaming woman down the aisle and insisting that she help fly the plane into the White House is not exactly the kind of thing that sane, logical people do on a regular basis. Or even an irregular basis. Perhaps you could dissect the logic behind his plans so the rest of us skeptics can see what a rational person Sam Bicke really was.
shareThose are not symptoms in a strict psychiatric sense they are evidence of something and that is my point, evidence of what exactly? we don't know the film doesn't supply that information. The only thing I can guess was Bicke was so annoyed and so desperate he wanted to do something anything: negative or otherwise to be a winner or to get justice for himself take your pick depending on the degree of cynicism one views Bicke's or any other world!
Going by what we see of the man in the film he seems an idealist stripped of hope and plunged into nihilistic thinking to achieve his aims, anyone can speculate on this as Bicke himself doesn't say why he does what he does? But couldn't it happen to many others too?
Bicke probably isn't a rational person strictly speaking he's both rational and irrational the question is what he does with is life good or bad? It turned very bad, all I am saying is this is a powerful movie that has a relevant message, even a lesson for skeptics who assign people to garbage bins without a second thought. Ye reap what ye sow?
I agree that this is a powerful movie with a relevant message, but you still failed to answer my question: how was Bicke acting rationally? Don't worry, you don't need to answer. It's a rhetorical question, because the answer is obvious: he wasn't.
And speaking of skeptics who assign people to garbage bins without a second thought, who are you talking about? I said Sam Bicke was irrational, even mentally ill, but I never said he was human garbage. People like him need help. I'm not going to pretend I'm a perfect person, but I try to do the best I can, and so far, I haven't hurt anybody doing it (aside from the minor tiffs that we all get into). When people like Bicke decide to solve their problems in ways that endanger and even kill innocent people, then I think it's time for others to step in and help them out.
One more thing; you asked about psychiatric symptoms? The real Sam Bicke (Sam Byck) did spend time in a psychiatric institution for depression. And the actual hijacking was much more insane in real life. The pilot told him they had to remove the blocks from the wheels before the plane could move, so he shot both pilots, grabbed a woman, and told her to fly the plane.
Read about it on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Bicke.
Thanks for the reply and I read the interesting article at wikipedia. Yes I was a bit defensive over the consignment to garbage bin but other posters on this thread had seemed to see the mental illness argument as final in someway and also this defensiveness is partly due to getting bashed by posters replys on other forums and perhaps a little bit of letting my ground shift away from me.
On the subject of the hijacking. Bicke went to a great deal of trouble ie the taping to tell people and possibly just psyche himself up so its not completely irrational. It is premeditated if a really botched effort, possibly he was an incompetent kind of niave fellow who just fell through the cracks but hey my point was in original post that those cracks can't really be afforded to appear and when they do it needs be acknowledged and acted upon in some positive way other than pumping up security measures. At the end of the day to just follow the latter course is to give up on political solutions, social solutions and lateral thinking, its a challenge society needs to take on board. Without of course abandoning commonsense.
Yeah, I think that anyone who watched this movie and dismissed Bicke as a wacko really didn't understand what was going on. The guy may have lost his marbles, but if nothing else the movie showed that he really just wanted the world to be a better place. People like him need guidance, and those of us who have got it together (at least enough that we don't plot suicide hijacking missions) need to be willing to help out friends or peers that may need it.
shareI submit that the discourse I've read on this board suggests that the film achieves at least 2 important results.
(1)It portrays in human terms, the psychologically and socially dysfunctional behavior that can result from a person feeling disenfranchised (imagined or real) from his support system; be it family, job, peer group, community, or government, and its all too real repercussions.
(2)It stimulates thought, reflection, and discussion about a subject that appears to be manifesting itself increasingly in our world in the varying forms of, the legions of homeless people, Columbine-type killings, home-brewed terrorism, piss-poor voter turn out, etc, etc, etc.
Having said this I will admit that I have not, in fact, seen this movie. I have however, seen the History Channel installment (mentioned above)on the subject, which is what lead me to this board in the first place. It is quite refreshing to encounter serious, intellegent discussion as opposed to the "I think this sucks, and if you don't think that too, then you suck" brand of discussion. You know who you are. Anyway I enjoyed the posts and I'm going out and find this movie. THX
*Warning, this post contails some spoilers*
I couldn't help but feel sad for him for several reasons and I had to stop the film several times because it hit home on several fronts and at one point almost brought me to tears. I think I may know why some feel this way and some don't. I'll get to that.
I can identify with him on the level of his perception of people and what they do or don't do in life/job. I live a life where, not unlike everyone else, there are employees and employers who lie, distort, ignore, degrade, manipulate etc. Where people who have little to no or even very poor skills at their job advance and jump from one good job to one great job while the rest of us eat dirt or are discarded. The list goes on. That's normal. It's not right but it's sadly normal. Blowing up a plane, government building, gunning down fellow employees or shooting teachers or students (whom in many cases are targeted because they wronged the person) or killing a head of state will not change this. Ever. The only way to change this is to change the way people think and that's a lot harder then making a bomb. People like this however don't do this because it's easier. The answer is not that simple minded.
I think people do these things (in cases similar to this one) because they narrow their lives down to a very simple point where all they feel (or have left in their lives) is pain and they feel compelled to share that with those whom wronged them (be it real or imaginary). Now not everyone acts these things out. I think many of them commit suicide as well. I may be wrong but that's my feeling.
I think the reason people don't feel with this character, or similar people, is two reasons.
#1. They have not lost as much as someone like him within a short period of time. One of the leading cause of depression is loss of job. Divorce is up there if it isn't #1. This guy has gone through a lot. Now you may say "But he was the one who quit!", to which I say "Why?". Because he was pushed and had a dream he wished to follow (which was then later taken from him). Which is even worse then just being layed off or simply fired. Not that there isn't worse ways to loose your job because I know of at least one example that's worse.
#2. Not everyone feels things through the same way. A divorce, or break up, for one person might be pure freedom because they love to party it up, pick up women at bars or simply be free to do as they wish, while other people get very mentally attached to a single person (even if that person no longer wants to have anything to do with them anymore and the relationship becomes very one sided). It becomes more and more painful until you reach a breaking point. Call it self pity if you want. Either way it's a mental state of mind where you narrow down your life to a single point. Which for some people happens to be loved ones or former loved ones. In these cases the person can become suicidal or at the very least have suicidal thoughts.
Each group looks down on the other for these reasons stated above. Or at least that's what I think. I feel what I write is correct because I been there and have experienced some of the same things Byke has and several years ago I too was narrowing my life down around a single individual. That's what happens when you get into very deep depression. In Byke's case it escalated quickly but like Byke he and I share the some background in being treated poorly throught our adult lives. In all cases of psychological abuse against both Byke and myself it was by people whom were able to more easily adapt to life or were successful in life enough to have the mental currency to write the other "lesser" person off. Over many years that can break down a person and more narrowly define them. It's not an issue with one or two people. Millions of people go through this, in various degrees, every day.
Drugs are not the answer. That's a cop-out to make the "other" group of people feel at ease knowing that the "other" group is under control. Plus how does it sound to a suicidal person if someone tells them that a pill a day will make it all go away. Some of these people have very deep mental scars. If a pill can make it go away then they may very well jump on board.
Anyway I just thought I share my point of view since out of everyone here so far I feel I have been a lot closer to what the characer has gone through in life. Thankfully I was able to get help from the person I narrowed on and is probably the reason I'm alive today and we are very close friends to this day.
In Byke's case however the person he narrowed on did not help him at all and the others around him just mildly put up with him or worse. Nobody helped him at all in the entire film. Nobody took responsibility in failing him and everyone blames him for his failure in life. People who reach this point in life are bread by the society they live in.
That's a lesson in the evil of humanity. The inability to feel with your fellow man.
as u say relationship breakdown is a real cause of dark and negative thoughts, I have a friend a real high flier in the world who really got strongly hauled up in his tracks by a failed relationship, his conclusion was relationship failure is a major cause of messes in ones life and I have to agree with this and this guy was excellent at relating to people and as I say highly intelligent. All in all society utterly fails to maintain good bonds between people or to value what really counts until it is too late and then if your like Bicke all that happens is you get condemned and the reasons for where and how you became what you are are simply forgotten and discarded the same way Bicke is. Good post Spartan Commander. The issue here is not a liberal or conservative issue its something I think that goes to the heart of humanity its in all the greatest religions, its in all the best things in life like good friends, good family and good experiences of people and a good life the last being a way of saying the first three in three words
shareI couldnt agree more. That is why I started this post because some people were quickly dismissing Bicke (byke) as a nut job. If anyone who the world determines is a "normal person" starts losing things especially his wife and kids a person can have a mental breakdown. I related to this movie because I consider myself a idealist or a dreamer, but we live in a world that does not reward such people.
shareWhat Sam really saw was a true purpose in life. he realised that there were much larger problems in the world that were more meaningful than his own life. He took it upon himself to do what he felt had to be done before these problems got out of hand. Some may look at that as terrorist talk just because it destroys the smokescreen that the government has created to make you feel better about things that theyve done. Mislead you, cheated and lied to you to get what they want and Sam felt it had gone on long enough and sacrafised himslf for the good of the world. so that his children and the youth around him could possibly expierience a truthful, fair existance... wouldnt you fight for that?
shareyou are mentally ill if you kill someone? Most of what Sam said was true. I think it is really sad, myself.
shareThis movie is depressing! Much more than The Elephant Man (a sweet character but strangers were monstrously frightened of him) and Ladies in Lavender (old woman who never found romance in her life).
The real sam byke and the one portrayed in the movie showed how quick a normal person can desend in madness.
Certainly.
The sad thing is that Bicke made a lot of good points that I am sure that anyone who is a working class American could agree with. The gap between rich and poor has only grown in the past thirty years and there is a higher concentration of wealth in the hands of the few.
However, Bicke was wrong in what he did, which was ultimately kill innocent people.
I felt sory for Bicke as he just wanted to earn an honest buck and make the world a better place. Unfortunately he couldn't deal with the fact that we don't live in an ideal world. The people in his life didn't understand him and that was the catalyst that pushed him over the edge. Bicke was a misfit who couldn't find his niche in life. I understand why his wife divorced him though. He had a family to look after and he wasn't a good provider. We all know that life isn't always fair and there's lots of injustice but we have to deal with it and pay the bills. That's what being a hero is all about, dealing with all the crap and trying to make life better for those you care about.
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