The Ending???

[deleted]

Sorry for the double post again, there's just alot of content to discuss. :)

Yikes! Sorry for having an opinion! Are you sure you aren't a bigot? :-p (joking)

If you're going to have a strong opinion, no point in not arguing it strongly, eh?

Most of the things you mentioned are nothing more than simple opinion, but I will try to clear things up for you about what I think, if you really would like to know.

An opinion with a strong argument based on solid evidence with experience backing it up is much more valid than a completely ignorant one. There's a reason nobody would listen to my opinions on medicine or foreign political policies - because I'd have no clue what I was talking about.

First of all though, why do you feel the need to keep mentioning that you are well acquainted with film, literature, philosophy, etc.?

Because I think experience is extremely important. Some people might call something 'good' when they've simply never seen anything better. Conversely, someone might call something 'bad' when they simply don't understand it or have no basis for comparison. The more (quality) experience you have, the better position you're in to compare and contrasts works in the same medium.

I don't mean to sound rude, and I sincerely apologize if I do, but having that sort of knowledge doesn't make your opinion any more "true" or "valid" than mine or anybody else's.

A more informed opinion is a better opinion. It's as simple as that. If it's not, please go to your next door neighbor for medical advice next time you're sick and ignore the doctor, because he just has "an opinion" too.

Everyone makes their own interpretations of art, and that's perfectly fine, but you're presenting your opinions and interpretations as if they were fact.

Art has standards, and if you don't believe that then you're subscribing fully to relativism. Is From Justin to Kelly equal to Citizen Kane? Is your sister painting on walls equal to Picasso? Is Britney Spears equal to Mozart? It's a simple enough question, and if you answer "no", then consider why.

it sounds like you're saying "I'm really intelligent when it comes to art, so you should treat my opinions as fact."

It's not that you should treat my opinions as fact, but I do feel experienced, intelligent opinions should be treated with more validity than ignorant ones. Would you listen to a 5 year old's thoughts on philosophy or psychology?

I would say that the ending is ridiculously open for interpretation, and everyone seems to have their own views on what actually happened.

The ending isn't open in a sense. Rei/Yui explain exactly what's happening. The reason the final scene is open is because we don't know what happens after that. And in THAT sense the ending is open. But I've always said that the end of EoE isn't an end but a new beginning (hence the title 'Neon Genesis'). Beginnings are hard. Much more so than endings. And I think that explains the different reactions. But considering NGE's themes, I don't believe it has a completely subjective nature.

There is a commonly held belief of what happened (the one you mentioned), but on whether it is "sad," "hopeful," "happy," etc. really depends on the viewer.

The viewer's reaction will more often than not reflect the viewer and not the work. But that's what great art is; it becomes a reflection of the audience perceiving it. But that doesn't mean NGE doesn't have a purpose from its creator's standpoint.

Anno-worshipping talk like this reminds me of one of the reasons why I "dropped-out" of the Eva fanbase. It seemed as if every Eva fan I met was a pretentious, pseudointellectual dipwhad who refused to rest in peace until they had proven to the world that Evangelion was the absolute pinnacle of all human achievment. Evangelion is a fantastic show, and expertly crafted, but that's no reason to constantly attempt to elevate Eva and Anno to the status of godhood.

I don't worship Anno. I think he got incredibly lucky with NGE. I'd be willing to bet a large portion of NGE's greatness came by complete accident. But I think NGE might be one of the best examples of what can be done when an artist is running off pure passion and a desire to expunge their feelings into their medium. It's not so much that I want prove to the world that NGE is the pinnacle of art, but I think it is perhaps the most underrated piece of art in existence. How is that? Because NGE's core fanbase are anime fans. Not film fans. Not art fans, but anime fans. And anime is a genre like comic books and video games which are looked down upon as "lesser mediums" precisely because they're filled with such childish crap. But when works come along that elevate the genre, and prove what a powerful medium it can be, I think the world should take notice.

In comic books this has largely happened. Time named Watchmen one of the 100 greatest novels of the 20th Century, and also compiled a list of the greatest graphic novels out there. But with anime, it's still a niche medium. And despite the fact that films by Miyazaki and exceptions like Akira, Grave of the Fireflies, and Ghost in the Shell have reached a broader audience, it's still considered a lower art form. The reason I think NGE deserves so much attention is because it's the only anime I've seen that is not just comparable, but favorably so to the very best in film. It is being taught in some college film courses, and has also received a decent amount of attention from other quality sources.

But compare it to works in sci-fi that everyone and their dog knows; Star Wars or The Matrix for example. NGE is not only as innovative as these series were, but is much more artistically relevant. Yet still it's only a niche work which has received limited attention. So I think a good portion of the fan base (including myself) have done our damndest to try and get the word out. It's not about being "pretentious, pseudointellectual dipwads", it's about trying to share an experience that truly affected us. If others can't understand that, then too bad for them. I pity people who are not passionate about anything.

I remember seeing a reader-poll in Newtype a while back in which Evangelion was voted both the "Most Pretentious" and "Most Overrated" anime of all time. Yikes, I wonder how much hate/flame-mail they got because of that? (I also think its pretentious and overrated, but I still love it nonetheless.)

How is NGE pretentious? Nevermind the fact that I absolutely detest that word with every fiber of my being, but what did it try to achieve that it didn't? If you're using pretentious in the more ostentatious (showy) sense of the word, then I must say that that applies to every anime in existence. It's perhaps the showiest medium there is. And there again, I think it's the most underrated work of art ever. I don't care if it's overrated as anime. Anime is, in a sense, a limited medium. And NGE transcends that medium. So if it's overrated as anime it's underrated as art.

If anyone would like to introduce me to the "good" part of Eva's fanbase, I'd love to try to "start anew."

I'd recommend EvaGeeks. You probably won't find a more laid back group of fanatics in existence. Most of the bad apples get banned quickly, but in general it's just a somewhat small site of people who just love discussing the series.

Someone who has never attempted suicide can still easily feel the pain of a suicidal character. Maybe not as deeply, as you say, but you can still feel it, I think.

I can feel the pain of Jake LaMotta in Raging Bull. I can sympathize deeply for such a pathetic and tragic individual. How deeply psychological scars can hurt a human, how these scars turns to rage... yes, I get chills just thinking about the prison scene. But all of that said, I still do not feel it in my gut. On that deepest level where you feel like the work is talking about you. In one sense, art is made so that an audience can experience something vicariously through the artist and the work. And when it does it's job, you come away with a better understanding of something. But when you've shared in that experience in life, it's more of a catharsis caused by a connection through two people. It's finding someone who's been where you been, and saying that "you're not alone" (ironically, the title of the new Eva film).

I think that's one reason NGE resonated so deeply for me. For those who've been where Shinji or Asuka was we don't just understand but we feel immediately the hell they're going through. That journey through darkness to find some light is hell. And what makes it worse is the sense of isolation you feel. It's like sitting in a pitch black room while the shadows eat away at your soul and you can't find a way out. And as GK Chesterton put it so eloquently in The Man Who Was Thursday:

"Through all this ordeal his root horror had been isolation, and there are no words to express the abyss between isolation and having one ally. It may be conceded to the mathematicians that four is twice two. But two is not twice one; two is two thousand times one. That is why, in spite of a hundred disadvantages, the world will always return to monogamy."

First off, there's no need for you to be a prink about this. We're discussing which characters we like better, after all. Its opinion, its not like its "SERIOUS BUSINESS!!"

I'm not trying to be a prik about this. I'm just stating strong opinions stronly is all.

Secondly, I know for a fact that I'm not the only person in the world who dislikes Eva's characters.

I don't like them either. That's not the point.

I as well as many others hold the opinion that Eva's characters are rather shallow and non-human, and the reasons for them being "messed-up" are rather weak.

If depression, psychological pain, contradiction between unconscious want and conscious will is what you'd call "non-human", then I guess I'd concede. But I think a few people like Jung and Freud would have a few things to say about that.

So Shinji has problems with his dad. Big deal.

It's more than just "problems with his dad". It's about a deficiency in psychological development due to abandonment. Shinji's mother 'died' right in front of him, and because his dad couldn't deal with him, he dragged him to a train station crying and sent him away. I know I would've been scarred by this, but I can't speak for others. Shinji's entire psyche grew from this. Because he never received love from the one person who should've shown it to him, he felt hated. And when you feel hated by your parents it's very easy to extend that to the rest of the world. You can't expect a child to grow up healthy when he's had an unhealthy upbringing. There's a big reason why the 'nature VS nurture' debate is endless, and that's because it's taken time for people to realize how strong of an effect these things have on person's psyche. And yes, there are examples of unhealthy upbringings that turn out okay. But the exception is not the rule, and we are not called upon in NGE to judge these characters.

I honestly could not connect with Eva's characters. They didn't feel real to me, they didn't feel human to me, they felt like a bunch of constantly screaming whiny emo kids running around in giant humanoids.

Again, if you've never been there, it's difficult to connect. I don't know how you make an audience who's never been there feel isolation and unconscious pain that is so strong that every conscious action is based around it. But we can nix the idea they were un-human, because I've been there as have many others. Emo is a style and nothing more. Every character in NGE has a reason they are how they are. If you don't get it, then that just shows the difficulty of connecting to others that were not there.

Dispite my dislike for the characters, Eva's overall story, mysteries, and pretty much everything else redeemed it for me, and I still think its a great show.

Ironically, I think the narrative is the least interesting part of NGE. Well, I should say that I think that element on its own is. For me, it's the fusion of ideas and narrative that has become so appealing. I think the narrative is what initially draws you in, but it's also the most superficial aspect. It is Anno's lie. It's the wall of the series just like the characters' outer appearance is their wall. It's no more the true series than the characters' outer appearance is their true selves.

I'm glad you enjoyed them so.

I want to make this clear: I didn't enjoy NGE's characters. I do not 'like them' in any human contact sense. Asuka is a loudmouth brat who'd get on anyone's nerves. Shinji is a whiny crybaby who can't do anything right for being completely selfish. Rei is so emotionless that I never connected with her.

How can I say all of this and still sing their praises? Because I understood them on an intimate level. I hate in them the same things I hate in myself. We all have parts of us that we hate. And because of our psyche's self defense system we usually end up ignoring these aspects as much as possible. We try to hide them, conceal them, push them so far back that our conscious mind doesn't even know they exist. And I think the reason so many react so disdainfully towards NGE's characters is because they represent every reprehensible, selfish part of us we wish we could forget. Yet if we are going to be truly honest with ourselves, we have to admit that there DOES exist in us these parts. These selfish needs that want to ignore others so that we may get what we want. The parts in us that doesn't give a crap what happens to someone else as long as it doesn't effect us.

There are these parts in all of us, and just because we ignore them doesn't mean they go away. These elements are a permanent part of our collective unconscious. It's everything - including the will to survival and satisfaction - that was in us before the birth of consciousness. Before we could understand consciously that what our unconscious was telling us was immoral. But this contradiction doesn't resolve itself through us ignoring it. Instead, it gets repressed, and sometimes painfully revealed only at our darkest moments.

In NGE, every character experiences this. They've built up the wall enough: Asuka is a confident pilot who wants to perform well. Shinji is a quiet, shy kid - the one that would sit in the corner with no friends at school - and just go along with what others want. But these characters keep being put in positions where they're FORCED to reveal their flaws to us. And I think we hate it because we don't want to admit these parts exist.

I hope you can trust me enough to simply take my word for it.

Anno has said alot of things about NGE that is flatly false just to get people off his back. Anno very much seems like the a-hole artist type, and that's often the case (I've always said that it's a good thing art outlasts the artists that make them - Beethoven was a notorious a-hole too).

At it's heart, Evangelion is a typical coming of age story about a young boy's relationship with his father. That is simply my interpretation, and I'm sure that yours is much more convoluted and over-analytical :). Of course, your interpretation is perfectly fine, as is mine.
Don't misunderstand me and think that I'm attacking Eva by calling it a typical coming of age story, as that is actually one of my favorite things about it.

On one level, NGE is a simple coming of age story. That is part of it. But there's alot of subtext that has nothing to do with coming of age. It's also a commentary on the political and cultural climate of Japan at the time. It's also a study in the conflict between the unconscious and conscious psyches. It's also a study in existentialism and how we shape our realities. It's a study in both the comparative and contrasting qualities of humans. It's a study about what real connection is, and how individualization isolates individuals and how uncomfortable that isolation is.

Some of these things have nothing to do with coming of age. Some take the "coming of age" idea and goes much deeper with it than 98% of works that deal with the same subject do. This is why I say NGE achieves a depth that most animes do not. It's not about superficially stating an idea, but taking that idea and twisting, turning, wrenching, pulling apart, looking at it from every side, and ultimately divulging every thing that idea can offer for perception and evaluation.

What confuses me is how they claim RahXephon stole Eva's characters and "divided-up their personalities among Rah's characters." WHERE IS THE LOGIC IN THAT?

It's very easy to steal a personality (persona) than it is to create one from scratch.

You can compare characters between any shows in the same genre, and many (if not all) of the characters in both shows were already inherent archetypes in anime long before Eva.

I never said they weren't somewhat archetypes, but I think most series merely crafted a persona of these characters which could've easily been aped from anywhere. The difference with NGE is we got to go behind the mask to get to the real characters underneath. And it's much harder building characters from the ground up than just giving them a persona. And I don't know if Rah's characters borrowed from Eva's characters or somewhere else. But the similarties are there regardless.

Name them and describe how. ;p (joking)

IIRC, Tsurumaki said (paraphrasing) that he loved NGE and wanted to create an experience that was as unique and mindblowing as it, and it was an inspiration for much of FlCl. But NGE's influence is barely seen because Tsurumaki came up with unique ideas while merely being inspired by NGE's method.

How do you know that he isn't an Eva fanatic?

Because he's constantly mentioning NGE as one of the turning points in anime. Read the interview with him and Izubuchi in the Rah movie booklet (if you have it).

These are the superficial similarities between the two.

When an entire episode is based around an idea that bears a strong resemblance to that in another series, I think it's more than superficial.