wait.....what?! - Zatôichi (2003) Discussion

Yes.

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[–] 18 years ago

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I have watched and re-watching this movie many times, and my conclusion remains the same. He is not blind, he has merely chosen to live as a blind man to cultivate his other senses, and there are plenty of hints to support this idea.

1) Zatoichi slices Kuchinawa's proxy (the tavern man) in the back twice to reveal the tattoo.

2) The scene where he walks up to Kuchinawa is from Zatoichi's point of view.

3) Kuchinawa himself even claims to have KNOWN that he could see right from the beginning. If he was really blind, why would Kuchinawa, a supposedly very intelligent old man, have believed he could really see before Zatoichi approaches him with eyes open?

The scene at the end could simply mean that there are some things you just wont/cant see, but I like to think he trips because his actual vision has become a distraction for him. He quite literally 'sees' better with his eyes closed.

It does seem that Kitano wanted to make a debate of the issue, if not a mystery, but to have the truth just follow the original series would spoil it. It makes the outcome too predictable and negates the possibility of a mystery. I believe that Kitano intentionally made his Zatoichi NOT actually blind for 2 reasons. 1) it doesn't really matter, he still fights 'blind' with his eyes closed, and 2) to play a trick on the sort of people that would take the original series as gospel. Those people so 'blinded' by their own fanaticism, they can't even see the truth with their eyes wide open.

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[–] activista 16 years ago

That dosen't make ANY sense whatsoever----why would someone go around pretending to be blind just to "cultivate" their other senses? The dude WAS blind, plain and simple. That last line was obviously meant to be metaphorical,not tobe taken literally. When he opens his eyes at the end,it's pretty obvious he can barely see out of them---he looked as if he had severe cataracts. I saw a handful of the old Zatoichi films some years ago and I've liked some of Kitano's films in the past (SONATINE in particular,which I feel is his masterpiece,straight-up). Loved the dance sequence at the end and the previous one in which a batch of farmers are throwing down(dancing)in the fields while it's raining---that was so sweet and truly hilarious to watch. Liked the film and its quieter moments,even though it was entirely too gross (TK actually looked pretty good with his new haircut for an old guy pushing the six-O).

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[–] Tw0-B1ts 16 years ago

You've never seen someone perform martial arts training blindfolded? Besides, pretending to be blind has other advantages. People will underestimate you.

Also, if the last line is taken literally, it SUPPORTS your claim. It's the metaphorical meaning that supports mine.

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[–] tony_irwin50-1 18 years ago

Uh... no, I figured he could see. When he says "Even with my eyes wide open I can't see a thing", the subtext is "Life is unpredictable, senseless, and meaningless, so why bother?"

It tied in beautifully with what I understood to be the film's premise: "Life is unpredictable and meaningless, so what should we do? Let's dance!"

Man it was funny.

Best,

Tony

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[–] dingo_chutney 18 years ago

^^this, with big bells on.

Old McDonald was dyslexic, eoioe.

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[–] barabanus 18 years ago

Man, thanks!!! You did help me much to understand the whole point!

"Life is unpredictable and meaningless, so what should we do? Let's dance!"

It's ingenious!!! ^_^

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] ksjazzguitar 18 years ago

The way I understood it was that he was blind but he opened his eyes to mess with the other guys minds. His eyes tended to have an otherworldly quality to them too, seeming to support this.

I think that if he was really saying that Zatoichi could see, that the Japanese would have lynched him. It would be like making a movie saying that the Lone Ranger couldn't ride a horse, that Zorro couldn't handle a sword, or that Robin Hood was secretly a greedy, thieving land Baron.

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[–] Nephilim-6 18 years ago

yes he was still blind. He was trying to confuse his opponent. (plus mess around with the viewers) I understand that that's a recurring theme with the Zatoichi movies.

Did you ever notice that people who believe in creationism look realy un-evolved? - Bill Hicks

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[–] Special_Agent_Kato 18 years ago

I think Zatoichi was still blind. I couldn't really understand why he prettended he could see. I was sure that the second boss, although he said that a blind man could not beat him, he was weaker than the Ronin, I mean, the only person in the film better at fighting than the Ronin was Zatoichi himself, anyway, I had a feeling it could have been, he had false hope, he didn't relise that Zatoichi was better at fighting than him. He thought he had an advantage, he could see, and beleived that this meant he culd win, then he thought that Zatoichi could see, and the false hope that he had disapeared, maybe he did it to make the mans death more frightning, he didn't kill him straight off.
I don't think he needed to take away the guy's hope though to beat him.. as I said, the Ronin thought he was blind and he beat him easily enough.

Then probably just played along for the main boss.

I think his character was definately blind though.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] slakresistance 18 years ago

You must be very simple

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[–] oldsenior 18 years ago

My take on this subject is: He wasn't blind after all, his last line "even with my eyes wide open I can't see" was in reference to the fact that while he was walking thru the brush and while he could see, he still stumbled even with his "eyes wide open".

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] oldsenior 18 years ago

Landor28......My take on your response to my post makes me believe that you're a very "ignorant person".

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] oldsenior 18 years ago

landor28..........Your response has sparked my admiration toward you and your cleverness and obvious wisdom.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] oldsenior 18 years ago

landor28..............you sound like a real "sweetheart".

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[–] adam_296 18 years ago

He was blind.

In the original movies Zatoichi was blind and did everything with his eyes open, or at least thats what i remember, its been a while.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] surym 18 years ago

i don't agree with your attidute toward culture, landor28. evaluation is always relative and with reference to the meta-reality the thing being evaluated resides in. kitano's movies are excellent and skillful attempt of play with the medium, that is, cinematography as a part of culture itself. when you bend and twist something, or use it in unusual way, some of subject's qualities that you'd otherwise neglected get exposed and highlighted, thus enriching the whole image of it. that's what art is about, since the dusk of neo-classicism in the middle of nineteenth century. art is good when it attempts to redefine itself in the new way again and again. it is autotelic. well, it's been always like that, but it's harder to notice these qualities in art in periods earlier than modernistic (that is, impressionism and stuff). so, basically, kitano's movies are as good as u can get. they twistn'bendn'stretch modern culture's currents in intelligent and skillful way. besides, this is all lie. the question is: do u enjoy it? u don't? that's a pity. joy is good. it's pleasant and healthy.

regards
gregorius

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] PunkCapitalist 18 years ago

thank you!!!!!!

MY TOP 20: [url]http/www.ymdb.com/neodarkness/l32978_ukuk.html[url]

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[–] inserte_su_mail_aqui 18 years ago

"No matter how wide I open my eyes... you can't see what you can't see."

He wasn't blind. You guys just want him to be blind because the original "blind" swordsman was, duh, blind. But that would be meaningless for the movie.

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[–] PunkCapitalist 18 years ago

zotoichi apesta d cualkier forma

MY TOP 20: [url]http/www.ymdb.com/neodarkness/l32978_ukuk.html[url]

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[–] SlutBuster 17 years ago

He's definitely blind. There are over 20 Zatoichi films in the series, and he's blind in every one. Takeshi's not going to come in, do one Zatoichi movie, and suddenly erase the old man's trademark. He's popular, but he's not that popular.

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[–] sym3005 17 years ago

hmmm...
Does it really matter how it's suppose to be, when there is a fact ?

Kitano's Zatoichi himself explained to villain that he is not really a blind, but
pretending to feel others mind deeply.

And last scene's comment was misunderstanding of first poster.
( the fact he is calling this movie a trash at other thread cracks me up )

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[–] Colkitto 18 years ago

TK had big trouble over little things like Zatoichi being blond and his cane being red. Do you really think he'd have been allowed to get away with a change like Zatoichi NOT BEING BLIND?

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[–] deloyx 18 years ago

Actually, the ending doesn't really tell whether or not he is blind, I think it's up to the viewer to decide...

And the way I see it, he is NOT blind, that would make the whole thing more interesting. It's kind of like a paradoxal zen story, the swordsman defeats anyone with his eyes closed, but with his eyes open he is defeated by a little stone (or whatever he trips upon) - or he defeats himself by his lack of attention. That way the ending actually MEANS something, if you want it to.

If he IS blind, that means 1) Zatoichi is a liar or cheater, and the old bad guy is kind of stupid to be fooled like that (which really doesn't fit with my image of either of them) and 2)the whole ending is very straightforward and anticlimactic, and "Even with my eyes open, I see nothing" simply means he is blind even though he can open his eyes (wow, how very clever... ).

I'm not saying anyone is wrong, though. Generally I believe there isn't one reality or any facts, everything is points of view and theories.

Finally, although this movie is based on the old Zatoichi movies, it doesn't mean it's necessarily connected to them story-wise or that it follows the same "rules".

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[–] Karl Aksel 18 years ago

If he IS blind, that means 1) Zatoichi is a liar or cheater, and the old bad guy is kind of stupid to be fooled like that (which really doesn't fit with my image of either of them)

"All warfare is based on deception" -Sun Tzu.

Ok, so Zatoichi would be a liar or cheater because he lied about being able to see? But pretending to be blind if he wasn't somehow doesn't fall into this category?

and 2)the whole ending is very straightforward and anticlimactic, and "Even with my eyes open, I see nothing" simply means he is blind even though he can open his eyes (wow, how very clever... ).

Eh? It's simply telling the audience, "I am blind, really". It has nothing to do with his ability to use his eyelids.

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[–] deloyx 18 years ago

Hm.. Yeah, good point about him pretending to be blind,he does pretend to be something else all the time :) But somehow it still seems strange to me if when he explains that he pretends to be blind because they "feel people better" (or something) he's just talking crap. And though the other guy is partly fooled by his appearance like everyone else, he seems somewhat more intelligent and I thought he would realize if Ichi was bluffing.

And on the other point, I meant I find the ending less clever if the last line simply states that he is blind instead of being symbolical. In a way I see it as a double meaning too, he is blind and he is not blind, so the ending's both plain and symbolical at the same time. Am I making any sense?

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[–] Karl Aksel 18 years ago

He was blind. I don't speak Japanese myself, but I'm told that a more literate translation of what he said was something like this:

"No matter how wide I open my eyes... when you can't see, you can't see."

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Tyler_Durden_pt 18 years ago

Yeah, he was blind and pretending he could see.

This... is chemical burn.

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[–] thebaxx 18 years ago

>>"He was blind. I don't speak Japanese myself, but I'm told that a more literate translation of what he said was something like this:

"No matter how wide I open my eyes... when you can't see, you can't see."<<

The literal translation is something like that. The meaning is not quite as cryptic as some think. Language is funny like that.

A translation of the idea expressed is that whether his eyelids are open or closed, he is in fact still unable to see. The rock trips him because he could not see it and his cane did not touch it. Just like any blind person.

It's all about language, context and translation. In this case, blindness is used primarily in the literal sense. Any implied figurative meaning is derived mainly from translation. The statement is not intended to be cryptic.

A random stranger.

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[–] welkinson 18 years ago

I understand it is just a "discussion", but honestly, how can anyone seriously claim Zatoichi is NOT blind.

Kitano is JUST MESSING with the audience, and this thread suggests there are enough gullible people to fall for it.

Kitano creates a "false twist" in that people think "oh its a twist, Zatoichi ISN'T blind", but than, cause he knows he would get LYNCHED if thats how he ended it, he ends the movie with the "even with my eyes open..." line.

Zatoichi IS blind, and so are YOU if you don't SEE that! :p (just teasing).

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[–] oldsenior 18 years ago

To all you posters that definitely and unequivocally state your conclusions as the only answer and "last word" on this subject, let me cite an old April 1st saying:
Only a FOOL knows everything. A WISE man knows how little he knows. - UnKnown

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[–] deloyx 18 years ago

Well said.
I know well that I know nothing, I just forget it once in a while o_O

Okay (this discussion is getting tiresome, but anyway), so the last line is translated badly and really means that he is blind.
But is a piece of art only defined by the purpose of the artist? Doesn't the interpretation of each individual viewer count just as much? Anything is open for discussion, nothing is definite!

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[–] oldsenior 18 years ago

deloyx: You sound like a WISE person!

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[–] deloyx 18 years ago

...or like a fool, depending on the point of view.

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[–] Cyanosis_2000 15 years ago

He was blind. I don't speak Japanese myself, but I'm told that a more literate translation of what he said was something like this:

"No matter how wide I open my eyes... when you can't see, you can't see."

I do speak Japanese and I think you've misunderstood that line. More accurately translated the line would be "if you can't see something, you can't see it" in referrence to things that we are all blind to such as rocks on the ground.

"things you can't see, you can't see" would be a literal word for word translation of the closing line.

i.e. you could have perfect eyesight but you'd still be as good as blind towards a tiny pebble.

To me it didn't sound like a genuine confession unlike the scene with the old man where it did sound like we were supposed to take what he was saying literally. Why would he need to lie to or confuse a frail old man?

Whether or not he is genuinely blind or blind through choice doesn't change the fact that he is a blind swordsman, it's just a tweak on the original story where as far as I know the reason for his blindness is never explained. The blindness itself is not what's important, it's the fact that it apparently leads to the sharpening of his remaining senses. He isn't skilled because he's blind, he is great despite his blindness, thus it's consistant with the original.
It would have been an easier modification to get away with than the blonde hair for which there really is no purpose nor explanation. Albinism? Not that it matters, it's not like Kitano to want to make a carbon copy of the original.

I guess he deliberately left it ambiguous in case fans of the original flamed him for modifying the story, there maybe first time viewers afterall.

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[–] hova07 18 years ago

He wasn't really blind. As Zatoichi said to the innkeeper;The blind can sense people better (I'm paraphrasing).

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[–] VVolfySnackrib 8 years ago

If it is the director's original and very subtle intent that Zatoichi can see, just as the OP says, I think that really enriches the movie. At literal face value "Even with my eyes open, I can't see a thing", isn't all that interesting if it's a cheap slapstick note to end the movie on to get a cheap chuckle out of an unintelligent audience. With Zatoichi having eyesight, you still get the slapstick comedic finisher, but some more depth to the final quote, meaning it to be taken in metaphor. I mean think about it, how stupid would it be that an otherwise intelligent movie panders to unintelligent people by occasional exposition and some things that make no sense at all. Twist, he's not blind. He was just playing his opponents. Double twist, he's blind! Wait... why is he revealing himself to not be blind if he's just lying about it and it serves no purpose what so ever?

I think this movie is definitely enriched and more interesting and has more depth if it is the subtle intention of the director that this particular rendition of Zatoichi isn't actually blind. I think the OP's interpretation is spot on.

I hate literalists who need everything to be exactly the way it was in the original. If so, then we don't need a bloody, and you especially don't need it. Just watch the original. Remakes should spice things up and find their own value, identity and twists and turns, stand on their own two legs and not just copy paste.

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