MovieChat Forums > Kinsey (2005) Discussion > My comments on 'Kinsey'

My comments on 'Kinsey'


Hi all -- just wanted to post my comments on this film and hoping to get feedback. I give the movie a 3/10. I couldn't post my entire comment due to the ridiculous 1,000 word limit on comments, so here I am going to post my entire "review" such as it is.

This extremely disappointing 2nd film from director Bill Condon brings together a very talented cast of actors and technicians for a film that adds up to a waste of time for all concerned. This is one of those films where the problem is not that time and energy weren’t spent on the film – it is wonderfully photographed and reasonably well acted. Ultimate blame falls on writer/director Condon’s shoulders for the disconnected and unfocused nature of his narrative, in which dramatic events seem to occur with no dramatic consequences and every major plot point or character is left either unresolved or resolved by a clichéd and unsatisfactory story device.

The story looks at events spread over the course of Kinsey’s entire life, and ties these events in to the sexual revolution as a whole. There is an interesting device in the early parts of the film whereby Kinsey’s early sexual encounters are detailed through having one of his students give him the famous “sex survey”. However around the middle of the film the narrative catches up to the survey and after this point the device is dropped and the film loses most of its focus. The major events that we see in the early part include Kinsey’s research on wasp migrations, his romance with a graduate student, Clara (Laura Linney) which ends in marriage, and his homosexual relationship with Clyde (Peter Sarsgaard). This is really the point where, for me, the film lost it. The scene with the gay sex wasn’t what bothered me…. That wasn’t nearly as disturbing as the earlier scene involving Kinsey and his wife’s first sex experience. It was the way that his wife seemed revolted and disturbed by the event, only to casually drop her anger when the suggestion is made that Clyde would like to sleep with her as well. I didn’t find this convincing at all in light of how her character was portrayed.

In fact I constantly felt like Condon had an agenda, that he was trying to make Kinsey into some kind of “hero”. Not only that, but that he was trying to use Kinsey as a kind of example of “sexual liberation”. For one thing, the way that he showed the naivete of 1940s/50s America was, I feel certain, very much exaggerated. Kinsey is supposed to come across as some kind of impartial champion of sexual knowledge. We’re supposed to believe he’s impartial because of all the set-up involving the wasp research – even though even in Condon’s presumably sanitized version of Kinsey’s life (I personally don’t know much about his real story at this point), he appears to be anything but objective and scientific. For instance his method of determining the sexuality of the “average” male is to hang out in gay bars and interview gay people. “You have to go where they are” he says or something to that effect. But even a layperson like myself knows that you will not get a representative sample of the adult male population if that is how you approach it. An even more extreme example would be the way he insisted that his father take the survey – and he interviewed his father himself! We’re supposed to believe that Kinsey is unaware of the Pauli Principle? The fact that the person doing observation needs to be as impartial as possible as well as have as little effect on the subject of observation as possible? A “survey” done by a son to his father is the furthest thing from science – yet if my take is correct Condon expects us to admire Kinsey’s desire to personalize his science rather than questioning the validity of these types of surveys.

A lot of things are built up dramatically speaking and then left unresolved – the father/son conflict, the wife’s desire for monogamy (myseriously abandoned), Kinsey’s affair with Clyde and the fact that Clyde’s character is so fully developed and then pretty much disappears from the film, the shadowy figures representing J. Edgar Hoover’s pressure on Kinsey to connect homosexuality to communism (perhaps Condon’s most blatant political statement in the film….. “Kinsey as freedom fighter”) who never appear to have any purpose or consequence, Kinsey’s children who appear and are given dialog and then disappear without a trace, etc. etc. etc. There are also a lot of characters who are extremely one dimensional – particularly Thurman Rice (Tim Curry), who seems to only exist in the world of this film to provide a charicature of a “backwards” conservative. Curry’s performance and the way he was used in the film has no more depth or feeling of reality than a nazi villain in a John Wayne movie.

The film’s conclusion ruins any last semblance of subtexts and depth in this film. First we are treated to Kinsey involved in some kind of bizarre self-mutilation which we have no context to understand…. Then we see him arguing with a potential patron. Perhaps these scenes are included to make us feel sorry for Kinsey, that he was rejected for being too radical. Then he decides to go to Marin county and hang out in the woods with his wife…. This gives us a truly groan-inducing scene where Kinsey and his wife stare at deer and pretend they’re in a Disney movie for a couple minutes. Then we have an even worse scene, where a lesbian woman tells Kinsey: “you saved my life”. Gosh, that Kinsey guy was really incredible after all, wasn’t he? I’ve rarely seen a pair of scenes so contrived and so obviously manufactured to draw a story to a conclusion where no real conclusion exists – the thread of the narrative has long ago been abandoned.

One last comment – the failure of this film is all the more saddening in light of the nature of Condon’s wonderful “Gods and Monsters” – a “bio-pic” that eschews the kind of all-encompassing survey of a “great” man’s life and all his accomplishments crammed into a formulaic redemption story and instead focuses on a tiny portion of James Whale’s life and gives us a kind of vision of the whole meaning of his life through just one week’s events. “Kinsey” is almost the total opposite – it tries to tell way too much and tries very hard to make the audience feel a certain way about its main character despite the fact that the writer/director couldn’t even sanitize or organize his subject’s life enough to avoid making the man look like a neurotic weirdo. I almost hate to say it, but the last conclusion I had on seeing this film was while I still hope Bill Condon has a long and successful directorial career, I am not looking forward to any more of his screenwriting efforts.


Did I not love him, Cooch? MY OWN FLESH I DIDN'T LOVE BETTER!!! But he had to say 'Nooooooooo'

reply

I agreed with a lot of this, and the Tim Curry character was cartoonish.

That scene early on where Alfred was a teenaged boy scout; did anyone
else feel a little attraction vibe between him and his scout leader?
I also dislike his infantile outburst ("You're so mean!") when LL
didn't immediately accept his proposal. I was sort of suprised when
she chose him after that.

And I confess to being a little shocked at the frank way his project's
assistants spoke and interacted with each other. They were like
inhabitants in the chimp cage at the zoo mounting random co-workers
with a complete indifference about gender, individual qualities
or attraction.

The only scene I really like was the first day of the packed lecture
hall with Kinsey's class. Everyone seems so attentive and startled.

reply

Thanks -- I hadn't checked this since I posted it a few weeks ago, and now I came by just a few hours after you posted!

I agree, there were some better scenes in the early part of the film, even though I think the film exaggerated people's naivete about sex at that time.

The scene you're talking about, the proposal scene, didn't really strike me as very true either. And it's strange that she talks about him being more of a traditionalist than she was hoping for, yet later on when he really cuts loose she acts like she wants to just be the ordinary housewife. But then just as quickly changes her mind and jumps into the sack with Sarsgaard's character.

Did I not love him, Cooch? MY OWN FLESH I DIDN'T LOVE BETTER!!! But he had to say 'Nooooooooo'

reply

I don't know that I agree that Condon is trying to create Kinsey as a hero, and I think that assumption is why you don't see the point of some of those later scenes. The self-mutilation, the desperate arguments, etc. seem pretty clearly designed to show him falling apart, a victim of his own excess. And while it's true that the "you saved my life" scene is very contrived, it's also quite necessary to paint any kind of summary of why we should care about who Kinsey was in the first place.

Some of your complaints I agree with, such as the virtual charicatures that people the film, although in fairness you can't devote everyone attention in a film with so many people complicating the protagonist's life (for instance, the scene with the kids shows us how his family is affected by his work. to keep working them into it would serve no purpose, and to leave them out entirely would leave the audience with questions). In fact, Kinsey's information gathering techniques were highly questionable, so I don't see that as a fault of the movie.

One crucial moment you didn't mention that bothered me is when the representative of the Rockefeller Foundation ditches him. It's presented as though he makes the decision right then and there, during a televised questioning by government officials, which is highly unlikely. Surely those kinds of decisions would be made prior to attending the event. Given that it's such an important turn of events I think it could have been dramatized in a better fashion.

"Lens cap."

reply



BETHANY COX
"Music comes from within, from your heart and from your soul."


I gave Kinsey an 8/10 because it was moving and had very good acting, especially from Liam Neeson, whose wife died recently.

reply

What does his wife dying have to do with anything?

Don't blame me I voted for McCain.

reply



BETHANY COX
"Music comes from within, from your heart and from your soul."

Nothing. I was just stating a fact, though I do admit it was irrelevant. Anyway, I found Kinsey very moving, and gave it an 8/10. liam Neeson gave a truly moving performance, as did Laura Linney as his wife. peter Sarasgaard was very good too, and everybody else involved, even though they had limited screen time. The soundtrack was very moving I love classical music so that was great to listen to. The only real problem I had with Kinsey was its length, but all in all, a sensitive and well observed film.

reply

I didn't read the entire OP. But I agree on one thing, that the movie had an agenda, which should be clear to anyone who has read enough on Kinsey; and that was to make Alfred Kinsey a heroic figure.

But when seen from an entertainment point of view, I think this film did wonderfully. I gave it a 10 because it is the most no-nonsense bio-pic I've come across. Every scene in the film had a context, given how eventful Dr.Kinsey's life was.

reply

FunkyFry, is it WRONG to make Kinsey look heroic?

The man did the world a favor, dissipating so much fear, lies and confusion about sex. And you whine that a film sings his praises.

Will anyone ever make a film about you? What have you contributed to the world? If you do end up contributing something substantially positive to the world, would it be wrong if someone sang your praises?

You sound like a typical frustrated, wannabe filmmaker: Those that can't, become critics.

Sheesh. Lighten up. You need an orgasm.

reply

Gotta agree with streaky here, the man did something difficult and bold and it made the world a better place. 3/10 is a pretty low grade for this film.

I agree with his Kinsey's assertions- they weren't bad ones. I'd give this film a solid 8.5/10. It was inspiring and I liked its focus around his work rather than 'his life.'

Musicians, sports players, and artists like pollock are heralded as stars, why can't a neurotic scientist who's message is "You're not alone," get some respect. He was met with hate but continued anyway, and even now people still don't recognize the contribution he made to society.

reply

I know this is an old review, but I have to say I found it spot on in nailing the various problems with the film.

A deep problem with films that deal with polarizing issues like sexuality (or abortion -- see the positive reviews for the similarly inane Vera Drake) is that people start to focus on the issue rather than the film. Even a cursory glance at the message board here will show that. It is frustrating. Can't we all stand back from the issue, from sexuality, even from Kinsey himself as a person, and agree that purely as a film, Kinsey fails miserably. The "you saved my life" scene is perhaps the most eye-roll-inducing scene I can remember.

reply

I realize the OP wrote his comments more than six years ago, but I've only just seen them now. I disagree that the movie was straight-up hagiography.

I don't know what Bill Condon thought about his subject, but it sure looked to me that Kinsey was shown to be a deeply conflicted man. He insists on his scientific and rational approach to sexuality and love, but is at the same time blinkered by it. Recall the scene where he overhears Clyde confessing to Mac that he (Clyde) is more attracted to women to men: you can see the crestfallen look on Prok's face. But then he puts on a brave face and walks into their conversation, assuring them that all that is "perfectly natural", assuming again the mantle of the objective scientist. In that very scene, Clyde and Mac both turn the tables on him, and put his scientific mettle to the test: if these sexual attractions are just natural biochemical manifestations, then presumably Kinsey would have no problem if the two of them were to sleep together? (Recall that Prok and Mac had agreed to an open marriage -- this was apparently also the case in real life.) Oh, of course not. But of course, he does have a problem with it -- it's all too clear a little later in the movie his irritation as he's shouting upstairs to the two of them (in the bedroom) to hurry it up and get out the door, to get back to work at the sexology institute.

In what I consider an emotionally climactic scene later on, Clyde (after a physical fight with Gebhard) exposes the essential folly of all these supposedly clinically detached experiments into human sexuality: how if you're not careful, "[they] will rip you wide open". It's a powerful undermining of the overly rationalistic approach assumed by Kinsey and his associates, and certainly undercuts the idea of Kinsey as some kind of 'hero'. In fact Kinsey (who is defensive and dismissive) is blind or in denial about the moral and emotional consequences of what he is doing.

There is also reference made in the movie to the idea that Prok is just as preachy as his own father, only that his own brand of religion or puritanism is 'scientism' (I won't call it 'science' because it could be seen as so much indulgence in Confirmation Bias, with a scientific veneer). Wasn't reference made in the movie that Kinsey's findings came under heavy fire regarding their statistical methodology, and that he railed against these attacks as rooted in prudishness? At the end of the movie, Kinsey is shown as becoming ever more strident in his proclamations: see the speech he is delivering just before he collapses on the floor.

I think I can find a few more instances of an ambivalent or less than hagiographic presentation of the man in the movie, but perhaps I have made my point.

reply