MovieChat Forums > Spartacus (2004) Discussion > Talk about heavy handed...

Talk about heavy handed...


Anyone else notice the really heavy-handed attempt to compare George W. Bush to the one-dimensional, mustache-twisting, bloodthirsty, cartoon villain of Marcus Crassus? How about this:

* When addressing the Senate, Crassus justifies his lust for power by saying the defeat of Spartacus was a matter of "national security", and no longer merely "economic impact".

* When addressing his private army, Crassus declares that they must destroy those who would "strike terror into the heart of the most powerful nation that man has ever known".

* When 'negotiating' with the man with whom Spartacus had arranged safe passage by ship out of Italy, Crassus says that the man (Orsino?)'s people would suffer the consequences of cooperating with Spartacus because "you are either with me, or you are against me".

While none of these are 'exact' quotes from the President, they are nonetheless paraphrasings of things he has said. In the context of this film, they stuck out like sore thumbs, and really increased the somewhat high cheese factor of this otherwise unremarkable film.

Besides, love GWB or hate him...but you can't legitimately compare him to a truly one-sided, paper-thin, poorly-conceived bad-guy character with all the dramatic depth of Dr. Evil. It's weak satire, and it's even weaker drama.

Yo.

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Well if you look at the 1960 version, there was a lot of using the story to discuss communism. I think that it's just one of those stories that fits the need.
Also, I know quite a few people who would consider Dubya a one-sided villain right out of a bad Saturday TV western.

"It's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier." -"Dogma"

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I think you are dead on.

The story starts off with promise, but the screenwriter has drunken the kool-aid a little too deeply.

This probably would have gotten a 6 or so from me, but the need to transfer such a story into a simple tool for propaganda lowers this to a 1.

Oh, and didn't the director notice that the actor playing Crassus was doing his "crazy eyes" for most of the movie? Egads, I'm surprised the didn't give him a sash with a swastika while they were at it.

Apparently, Robert Dornhelm isn't much a believer in subtly...


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Cool - I gotta see this now. Maybe people are just 'misunderestimating' him. Truth *is* stranger than fiction. Besides, "either you're with me or against me" rhetoric is old material - similar statements have been used throughout history.

"The struggle between the two worlds can permit no compromises. It's either Us or Them! Either you're with us or you're against us!"
- Benito Mussolini, 1930.

"Either you're with us, or against us"
- George W. Bush

"I wave my private parts at your auntie!"
- Famous French quote




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Or maybe the role of Crassuss was displayed as it occurred? Competition for Generalship in the Republic was at the summit of the political elite. Generalship equalled war. War equalled profit, profit boosted political gains and military triumph equalled a triumph; a chance for the people to see their successful general. Popularity was everything in the political world of the Republic.

Pompey the Great was so popular because of his success in the East. Caesar remained in his position as pro-consul of Gaul because he successfully conquered the various tribes, with very few reverses. Could we compare Caesar to Hitler? He butchered one million Gaul’s, raped a nation for millions in gold and all for his own popularity and political gains.

Its quite pathetic that you should compare Marcus Lucinius Crassuss to GWB merely based on the pretext of a few speeches. Spartacus was a major threat to Rome and the very way of the Republic. Crassuss was a very jealous man and a very mediocre general; all this compounded his anger at being forever in the shade of Pompey.


People shouldn’t make links when there are none.

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"People shouldn’t make links when there are none."

Then there would never be any links, would there? :P

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I agree in all the movies or documentaries i have seen of Spartacus and there have been plenty,Marcus Crassus has been depicted in the same way as in this movie. He was a mediocre statesman and general. If anyone wants to compare him with Bush i am not against that. Bush was not much of a president thats why he kept fighting wars with countries that had nothing to do with the attack on the twin towers.As i said historically Crassus was a rich guy who wanted to have more importance in the goverment of Rome.He even bought his own legions to make it so.And you know as asoon as Spartacus is betrayed and stuck in Italy that he would end up dead.Romans were arrogant against other people and they would not aacept defeat from anyone and had more resources.

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"I fart in your general direction."
-Taunting French Guard

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the need to transfer such a story into a simple tool for propaganda lowers this to a 1.


How is it propaganda? Bush and Crassus happen to have many similarities as outlined in the original post. That's not the filmmaker's fault. That's Bush's fault for going down the same path and indulging in the same atrocities as Crassus.

Totally disagree with OP saying that Bush is not one-dimensional and Crassus is. Crassus is a very well-played three-dimensional character. However, Bush is one-dimensional. If the two cannot be compared, then that would be why.


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The biggest problem with your argument is the suggestion that George W. Bush has ever been or said something original in his life. One cannot compare the two because Crassus is as you say, a one dimensional, mustache-twisting, bloodthirsty, cartoon villain but George W. Bush is little more than a "glorified" glove puppet with an IQ approximately the level of a loaf of bread. He isn't evil, he's too stupid to be evil. That description belongs to the ones that hide behind him, with their hands up his back.

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The Roman Empire can be compred to the US in many ways- why not compare the leadership?

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Yes, age old problems of "civilize" civilization. If you think about it, not much has really changed since Roman times. We still build our homes the same, cities of concrete, inside toilets and baths! Instead of dead dinosaurs fueling our casual lives, unlimited slaves were the natural resource of the day. And men like G.W. Bush we continue to try to size power for themselves and thier cronies. ("Much riches for our contractors" says Draba (the fat one). Haliburton anyone???

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The United States of America is hardly like the Roman Empire.

The Roman's were one of the greatest military powers in history. This is not only in numbers but in tactics. The Roman's invented the Testudo, one of the most original and brilliant ideas in military history. The Romans were a highly disciplined force.

The USA is a big power in numbers and nuclear might but there is not subtlty, nuance or fantastic strategy about the way they fight. They fly planes over places and bomb the hell out of them. That's hardly the most ingenious strategy to ever exist, whether it works or not.

The Roman's had an Empire that expanded over most of Europe. They began as a city and expanded into a remarkable force.

America is large but all they did to aquire their land was shoot down a load of natives. The first "Americans" were hypocritical Brits that didn't want to pay taxes (although they were high).

The Romans had the colloseum and slaves and Christians that fought to the death. They never repented for having slaves.

The closest America has to this is "Proffesional Wrestling" which is no more than a fake-violent soap opera with less intelligence than an aforementioned loaf of bread. A similarity was that early Americans owned slaves however "The Land of the Free"'s first President owned slaves in a country that declared that "All Men are equal" - do black slaves not count as men or are they just ignored in this particular part of a shambles of a document?

DO NOT compare the world's greatest Empire with a country founded by ungrateful hypocrites, that has no martial tactical ability and is now lead by a Loaf of Bread.

Thank you.

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I agree in parts. I think you judge GWB wrongly with that "IQ equal to a loaf of bread" remark. Loaves of bread are known to exhibit remarkable mental abilities the likes of which said life form could never rise to.

Hypocricy seems to run through american "history" (excuse me but a few centuries of violence and mistreating Indians can hardly be seen as history, especially for those who count in millenia their RECORDED History). First the Indians. Second the Slaves. Third all those foreign superpowers that had the nerve to stand in america's way (North Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Iraq twice, Yugoslavia and Afghanistan). It still amazes me that the score is almost a tie! (I count Yugoslavia at least a tie because the fearless american ground forces showed their quality albeit a little too late!) Maybe it has to do with what Agrippa said to Varinia before he sent her to freedom. "You fought for all that's good, we fought for the whip and the cross".

Rome has something to teach those who should learn even today. As her power grew and the role of world-leading power was held by Rome (any Rome), Democracy was slowly abandoned for more efficient forms of government. It is a necessity (sp?) dictated by History. If you want to rule the world, if you want all others to bow before you then Democracy (or Republic or whatever else you may call it) just stands in the way. People's rights and freedoms must deminish and totalitarian control must rise as an effective mean of ruling. There's no place for rights and freedom when ruling the world. It may not be tomorrow, the next year or even the next decade but it will be. You can bet your life on this. Unless of course there is no desire to rule the world, steal its resources, enforce your way of life, make others like you etc etc.

In regards of the movie/TV show in question, the only bit I missed compared to the original with Kirk Douglas was the scene where he sees his son. All the rest played reasonably well and the story was surprisingly accurate (judging by other attempts to present History where Hollywood has failed tragically even in large or characteristic parts of stories. Then again, who are we to judge the represantation of History by those who have none?).

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hehe...cool post fetta

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[deleted]

Everyone in this thread is testing my ability to suffer fools. Most notably the OP and this "fettaischeesy" guy.

Principally I would like to point out that the historical Crassus made speeches extremely similar to ones that would later be made by G.W. Bush. The words put into Crassus's mouth in the film are ones very similar to those that came out of the mouth of the man Lucinius Crassus whilst he was alive. The similarities are striking, yes, but not propaganda. The fact that you saw the similarities says far more about you than the filmmakers.

Now, for the comparison of Rome to the United States, and "fettaischeesy"'s oddly jingoistic approach to an extinct civilization that he seems to feel a bizarre personal connection to. His reaction smacks of someone who feels he is secretly really a Roman, a romanticization (if you'll forgive the pun) of an expansive and cruel Empire of imposition, and a hatred for the United States bred exclusively in Suburbia.

"The Roman's were one of the greatest military powers in history. This is not only in numbers but in tactics. The Roman's invented the Testudo, one of the most original and brilliant ideas in military history. The Romans were a highly disciplined force.

The USA is a big power in numbers and nuclear might but there is not subtlty, nuance or fantastic strategy about the way they fight. They fly planes over places and bomb the hell out of them. That's hardly the most ingenious strategy to ever exist, whether it works or not. "

Firstly, it is important to note that subtle warfare does not make for effective warfare. When the atom bomb was dropped, it most certainly ended the Pacific War, without a full-scale invasion of the Japanese islands and a long and hard battle for control over Tokyo, which would do far more ecological damage and cost far more lives than the two nuclear bombs. War is not about grace or honor, it is about destroying your opponent's ability to continue fighting. Nothing more. The idea that there is a "noble" way to fight is what cost the Japanese the war in the Pacific, and almost cost the Allies the war in Europe.

But that does not change the falsehood of the above quoted statement. Elegance and subtlety are historically hallmarks of American combat. The British redcoats would attempt to fight Colonial Rebels in a traditional European style of meeting on a field, marching at one another in ranks, and fighting until the commander surrendered. The American separatists, however, adapted surprise and ambush tactics from the American Indians and made maximum utility of each man by striking from the shadows, and taking the redcoats unawares.

The Testudo is interesting, but far from being the epitome of military excellence. For those who are not Roman Combat Historians, the testudo (or "tortoise maneuver") is the formation of Roman soldiers with their shields raised above them and on all sides, so that they can move forward without exposing a single point to injury. But there are far more brilliant and original inventions that advanced the art of warfare. Here is my brief list.

* Arrows. Invented before history, it is an effective weapon to this day, used by every human civilization for hunting and killing. The versatility of this tool allows it to be used by bows and crossbows (manned and automated), and even remotely-detonated rockets such as in Chinese military applications. No other invention has so drastically changed the art of human combat. This is the first long-range weapon except perhaps...

* Slingshots. In various forms the simplicity and versatility of this weapon cannot be underestimated. Ammunition is constantly abundant, and by using different things - from rocks to nuts to even knuckle bones - one can control the distance and concussive effect of the projectile.

* The Phalanx. Fighting in columns provides a strong central pillar to penetrate enemy lines and minimize casualties. This method was invented by the Greeks and dominated European tactics until the Napoleanic Wars. Even the Tetsudo formation is a variant of this tactic.


* Sherman Tanks. Invented by Americans during the second World War, it was not the most durable or effective tank. But it was extremely inexpensive to make in comparison to their German counterparts. As a result, Sherman tanks outnumbered German tanks on a scale of five-to-one at times, and Panzers could not get off a single shot before being destroyed by Sherman fire. The smaller tanks also integrated infantry and armored units in a new way that made the capture of Nazi-occupied cities quick and effective. Another revolutionary concept presented in the Sherman was its variety of interchangeable parts. It could be reconfigured with speed and ease like Lego blocks to include a top-mounted machine gun (or not); a bulldozer plow (or not); a flamethrower (or not); and a wide variety of other attachments. This allowed generals to quickly surprise German troops with tanks equipped with tactical gear never seen before, or at least in a configuration never seen before.

"America is large but all they did to aquire their land was shoot down a load of natives. The first "Americans" were hypocritical Brits that didn't want to pay taxes (although they were high)."

I'm not sure what this author thinks the Romans did to acquire their land. Buy it? No, it didn't work that way.

The City of Rome was founded on the banks of the Tiber. But they weren't the first people there. When Rome declared itself a Kingdom, it immediately went to war with its neighbors: the Etruscans and the Sabines. They were killed, defeated, and the survivors integrated as the "plebians" of the Roman caste system - those with the least amount of money and political power. The Romans, according to their own lore, were descended from Trojans, so they seem very much to have simply invaded and begun to "shoot down a load of natives".

Of course, they didn't stop at western Italy. They attacked and killed the Greek colonies in southern Italy, including Sicily. Then they conquered and occupied Greece in spite of its native population. The Romans then continued on to "shoot down a load" of Carthaginian, Hispanian, Syrian, Asian, African, Germanian, Gallic, Visigothic, Gaelic, and Anglic "natives".

"The Romans had the colloseum and slaves and Christians that fought to the death. They never repented for having slaves"

False. Rome became a Christian nation after Constantine became Emperor and forcefully converted the entire Empire to the faith of Christ. The Christian faith radically changed slavery in Rome, and many Bishops in Imperial Rome called for the emancipation of all slaves, though at the time it was an economic impossibility. But the first of several Popes of the Roman Christian Empire to be a former slave himself was Pope Clement I, known at the time as Pontifex Clemens Romanus.

"The closest America has to this is "Proffesional Wrestling" which is no more than a fake-violent soap opera with less intelligence than an aforementioned loaf of bread. A similarity was that early Americans owned slaves however "The Land of the Free"'s first President owned slaves in a country that declared that "All Men are equal" - do black slaves not count as men or are they just ignored in this particular part of a shambles of a document?"

The lack of any kind of coherence in your argument is breathtaking. Yes, the realistic difference between performing gladiatorial games and professional wrestling is easy to understand. But the anthropological relevance is exactly the same.

Why are gladiatorial games and professional wrestling - and even "reality television" - exactly the same? First and foremost because they appeal to the human animal, not the human mind. It is peddling in human misery, displaying the most base elements of the human condition. Exposition of violence, even false violence, serves to allow "civilized" man the ability to vicariously experience his bestial nature while still letting him acknowledge his superior standing - he need not fight, only lounge and watch others fight. Of course we feminize this in "reality television" and instead of physical combat, it's the conflicts of sexual and social constructs, which should be private and personal, put on humiliating display for all to gawk at. How on Earth are Roman gladiatorial games different from let alone better than American television?

But first and foremost we must acknowledge the striking similarities between the ascension of the Roman Republic and the American Republic.

1) Both are nations founded by foreign invaders on land where the native population was raped, killed, and displaced
2) Both are nations that gained terrestrial dominance through ingenious tactical, strategic, and technological advancement.
3) Both are nations founded on the ideals of democracy and freedom while directly contradicting themselves in the continued use of slaves (Remember kids, just because you don't call them slaves doesn't mean they're not! The new American slave: BLUE COLLAR WORKERS)
4) Both are nations whose population is composed of dozens of cultural identities and ethnicities
5) Both are nations whose wealth disparity, and its pronounced ethnic factor, have caused tremendous social and political strife, including peaceful revolutions
6) Both are nations obsessed with the display of human misery
7) Both are nations who developed social welfare systems in spite of the ruling class's opposition to it (see: FDR's New Deal as well as Publius Clodius's grain dole)
8) Both are nations whose radical advancements in road-making revolutionized transit, mail delivery, and communication (Appian Way and American Highways)
9) Both are nations whose aggressive territorial expansion was halted by foreign wars, and who entered an age of haphazard diplomacy in the face of an international community of independent and powerful countries.

And many more.

"fetaischeesy" I must assume that you are in middle school or high school. Or, and I hope not, that you are over the age eighteen but are a middle school or high school dropout. Your opinions appear to be based on mere snippets of knowledge strung together by assumptions that lack the guidance of critical thinking skills. I would highly suggest receiving a proper education before attempting to defend the fictional honor of the Roman Empire.

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Right on. Ever since an architect friend of mine pointed out that we still build houses the same way the Romans did, I realize all the same like you said - toliets, sewers, bridges,concrete, etc. All our "technology" just makes things look a little different. Oh,and yes... fossil fuels, nuclear, and the like did take the place of the slave. Slave air-conditioner anyone?

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It's not George W. Bush especially, a lot of American presidents have talked like that, and indeed a lot of presidents and kings all over history have used such phrases.

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The world's greatest empire was mongolia under the Khans.

And the Romans simply built upon the foundation of the Greeks (notably Alexander).

The same way that modern nations are built from the nations of the past.

And I would say that America has a decent record. Nuclear power, internet, Model T's, rapid production....

It does draw a fair comparison to Rome... Even if the loaf of bread comment was accurate...

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"The world's greatest empire was mongolia under the Khans."

The funniest thing i've ever read.
Even extraterrestrials would agree that the greatest empire
in history was Rome.

"And the Romans simply built upon the foundation of the Greeks (notably Alexander)."

Another funny thing. Rome was simply founded by two twins from the tribe
of Albalonga, and she created more important things than ANY
empire ever did, even more than Greece. There was even a little influence
from Greece because that was the ruling culture at that day.
Most important, Rome was the most long lasting empire in history
(i mean from the foundation), and i bet that America's power upon
the world will be over soon.

"And I would say that America has a decent record. Nuclear power, internet, Model T's, rapid production.... "

Decent record based on others inventions. Many nations today have nuclear
power, the internet is completely based on italian inventions (the phone, invented by Meucci and the radio, invented by Marconi... even computer
chips have been invented by an italian guy, from Venice, whose i don't remember
the name)

"It does draw a fair comparison to Rome... "

America has to last millennia and create culture before any comparison could
be draw and fair.

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But then what have the Romans ever done for us? You have to be python fans to answer!

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Look at what you wrote... the alphabet
you used is from Rome, the language you
used for the most part comes from latin.
I won't go on any further.

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"Rome was the most long lasting empire in history"

Guess he's never heard of Egypt, what?

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