About the ending [possibly spoilers] - Mibu gishi den (2003) Discussion

[–] RyanT67 20 years ago

Not to be overly sarcastic, but do you mean that once all the violence had ended, the movie ceased being entertaining and enjoyable?

If you werent touched by the ending, then you must have missed the plot and the character development or something. It was a very deep and touching ending; I am sure that I wasn't the only person fighting back tears during it.

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[–] VanBurenPhilips 20 years ago

No you weren't, Ryan. I did think that the emotional button-pushing was *maybe* a little overdone in *some* of the final moments, but (1) those times were few and very fleeting, and (2) it worked! And it worked in a genuine way (ie, I had a lump in my throat, and although I could detect the film's method of putting it there, I still felt that I hadn't been "tricked" in any way, that my emotions were not out of step with those of the characters or the circumstances I'd just seen).

So perhaps the film's final scenes go on a bit, and perhaps they're a little unsubtle at times. But for me these complaints are so minor as to be almost non-existent. I ****ing loved this movie, it's the best "new" film I've seen in ages, and is definitely among the best jidaigeki/chambara I've ever seen. I was amazed that it was (IMO) even better than Twilight Samurai (which I loved), and even approaches the same league as Kurosawa's films, which (IMO) have so far been untouchable (indeed, the above criticisms may apply to a few of AK's great films, such as one of my favourites, Ikiru).

So I'm in agreement with Ryan, really. This was an excellent film regardless of (not because of, or despite) the action content. For me, the whole film was about believable, identifiable people (Yoshimura in particular, obviously) and what makes them tick, and it continued to be so until the very end... the fact that the fighting stopped before then was neither here nor there for me.

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[–] 20 years ago

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[–] VanBurenPhilips 19 years ago

It's interesting that you call it a "fake twist," I think you are being unfairly cynical. I didn't really see it as a twist, I took what the film presented me with at face value. We see Yoshimura run into battle, we don't know what happens to him, shortly we find out. I didn't get the impression that this (and his following demise) was an attempt at a twist, I think such dumb crowd-pleaser techniques are a million miles away from this film.

And similar sequences of events are not unheard of in this this type of film, they're pretty par for the course. Not these *exact* events, of course, but you'll find a sequence of "overwhelming hardship > glimmer of hope > disappointment/demise" in a great number of notable jidaigeki/chambara films from decades past, so sorry to be a smart-arse but "unheard of" is a little wide of the mark ;) Sorry, I know that sounds rude, but I'm just kidding here :D

It's not done as a double-bluffing twist, because as you say that would be rubbish, in most cases it's a commentary on the values of Japan's old feudal system (often in a negative light, especially in Kobayashi's films). For examples of this(look away now if you don't want to know!) check out Kobayashi's incredibly dark & pessimistic Sword Of Doom and Samurai Assassin, Chushingura (the version directed by the guy who did the Miyamoto Musashi trilogy, sorry I forget his name, but I imagine any one of the many versions of this tale end the same way, since it's based on true events), Samurai Rebellion and HaraKiri/Seppuku (Incidentally, every single one of those films stars Toshiro Mifune!)...

...HaraKiri and Samurai Rebellion may be of particular interest to you, dmitriyaz, since they are directed by the same guy who did Kwaidan (sorry, again I forget his name) and they are both excellent. In fact, all the films I mentioned in the last paragraph are brilliant and well worth checking out.

Anyway, as for Saito, I thought we got a good sense of progression/change from him - at first he was almost the perfect example of samurai honour, but quite clearly a despicable man. He loathed Yoshimura for his (apparently) extremely disrespectful and self-serving ways, quite unbecoming of a samurai. But after continued exposure to him, and struggling to understand him (on both the viewers' part and Saito's), we see that Saito finally realises the value of Yoshi's personal take on honour. Saito was a man who behaved as an honourable samurai, but didn't understand what honour really meant, he simply behaved as was expected of him (you can see this theme running through many other films, especially HaraKiri) - but Yoshi, despite his apparent disregard for the honour code he should be following, finally showed him what it means to be a truly honourable man through his selfless dedication to his family *and* to his duties (ie, his charge into battle and obediance of the ordered suicide). I don't quite understand how you didn't feel any of this, as IMO the final sinking-in of this learning process are what those last scenes are all about.

As for Yoshi's son, I've only watched the film once and I honestly can't remember what happens to him! I'll definitely be watching it again soon though, as I thoroughly enjoyed it.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] VanBurenPhilips 19 years ago

"I didn't get it, and I'm trying to pinpoint why."

Can't say fairer than that! There's no right or wrong here, either a film connects with you or it doesn't. But hopefully these comments might prove useful to others.

Anyway, as for Toshiro Mifune... I've now seen quite a lot of films with him in, by many different directors, and I honestly don't think I've disliked a single one! Least favourite so far would probably be "Ambush At Blood Pass," which is not a bad film by any means, just probably the weakest of a very good bunch. But I bought that film in a boxed set of Mifune films, one of which was "Red Lion" ("Akage") and I can't recommend this film enough! It was incredible - unlike any other period samurai film I've seen, it was pretty much a straight comedy (most of it, anyway) which I found even more unusual when I discovered it was by the same director as "Sword Of Doom" and "Samurai Assassin" (both very good, both *incredibly* pessimistic and dark, and yes - both starring Toshiro Mifune!) - anyway, Red Lion is a good one to track down as it shows TM's comic talents and is just generally different to your typical samurai flick - and it's really just as serious as that director's (I forget his name) other films, the comedy just makes it even more sobering.

And of course, any Akira Kurosawa/Toshiro Mifune pairing is a must-see. Go for Throne Of Blood in particular, but really u should see them all ;).

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[–] gsandiford 19 years ago

I'm completely with P-II-i-L on the last part of the film - it built up gracefully and powerfully the theme progression and change and the struggle that often comes with it (the cherry tree & magnolia triumphing despite adversity). Saito was the embodiment of that difficult change and to a degree almost the joint leading character...

I see your point about the son seemingly squandering his father's sacrifice. However, he was following path that his honour required as a samurai and, I believe, the path his father wanted (why he left him the sword).

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[–] taxidriver_448 19 years ago

I think that, to a certain degree, the film is trying to show the reality of this selfless Samurai code, which dictates that honour should essentially be held above all else. I'm still pretty new to the Samurai genre (although I'd love to see more of it), so I might be wrong here... The son thinks that he must go into battle to join his father, but then he ends up dying and leaving his little sister with yet another dead loved one. For me, there was no sense of glory here; the son's sacrifice just seemed redundant. I think the director was questioning that whole Samurai ideal of honour and glory. The doctor didn't go to avenge his father's death, and he ended up in a loving relationship and he has a good job.

Anyway, I loved this film, and I definitely had a lump in my throat by the end- and I'm not one to get weepy in films.

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[–] VanBurenPhilips 19 years ago

Masaki Kobayashi's films might be a good place to look. He did Kwaidan/Kaidan, which I think dmitriyaz mentioned, and I've seen two others of his: Samurai Rebellion and HaraKiri. I've read that he was very much against Japan's old traditional values and these two films certainly do seem to be aimed at criticising the old ways. They're both excellent, and I feel from my limited experience that Kobabyashi was a really, incredibly good director. He made a trilogy of films called "The Human Condition," based on (I think) a famous Japanese book or series of books - the films total over 9 hours and I desperately want to see them all, based on what I've read in reviews, user comments and the like.

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[–] fool_on_the_hill10 18 years ago

Well said. My only complaint about this movie was that at times it was a little difficult to understand what was going on, but it became easier to figure that out as time passed. It was such a good film.

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[–] vicky_lc2001-1 13 years ago

That's a very poor argument IMO, if a particular sentimental film isn't liked, then the viewer had a limited understanding of drama as a genre. You can't have that argument over every art piece that receives criticism. Certain scenes were indeed too much, if you want to see a superb sentimental scene crafted perfectly, watch:

AI
The Champ (1979)
Million Dollar Baby

The problem isn't the plot or the character development, & it isn't bec we *missed something**, the problem was the script & the directing. You want to see great character development & superb plot? Watch The Godfather trilogy, I have yet to see a film matching it in plot, character development, directing, symbolism & acting. & no this film is not that deep, there are far more superior films that have been as you say **deeper**.

OPEN YOUR EYES! dailymotion.com/video/xbi2hi_1993-chandler-molestation-extortion_news

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[–] showa48 19 years ago

Did anyone else think that the last quarter of the movie was crappy? Well I did. First of all, the acting gets weaker in the end, when the new characters appear (the sons, forgot the names + daughters). And then it's too over-dramatized, I hate that kind of movies. However, I didn't even found this movie very touching..

I agree completely with that.
The first 1½ hours of the movie had great potential, and was genuinely exiting to watch, because it was much more than "just" a samurai movie - it was a movie about how impressions of a person can vary a lot, depending on who you ask. That was an interesting, subtle, and - well - "intelligent" way of making a movie.
The last ½ hour or so descents into a uninteresting and un-subtle sob-fest, complete with self-sacrifices, which are strangely incosistent with the character motivations as described until then.

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[–] SnakesOnAnAfricanPlain 19 years ago

I agree the last quarter creates less of an impact. It has nothing to do with the violence ending, but at the end it takes a dramatic U-Turn attempting to shift the emotion and story onto anyone around. The son, the friend of the son, this all seems as though it could have been cut. Also I found the death scene not very moving. It seems to me as though we are being told what to feel with the speech about his daughter etc. I would have preferred it that after he was given the rice balls, the next scene is them coming in and finding him dead. It was a brilliant film though. 8 or 9 out of 10

http://www.ymdb.com/user_top20_view.asp?usersid=8136

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[–] uberbile 19 years ago

Just watched the film, so I'm still caught up in the "after-glow" of the experience, so excuse me if I'm over-zealous in the defence of this film.

First of all, I'll say that I loved this film from beginning to end, and I won't bore you by saying why, as I'll be repeating a lot of what is on this board already.

Secondly, I feel that the criticism of the last section is a little unwarranted, as it is true to the film. Of course people are going to find it less engaging, as they have spent the first three quarters of the film growing to identify with Yoshimura, and when this man, who has touched the lives of so many characters within the film, dies then it should not be surprising to feel a loss of his character throughout the rest of the film. But then our loss is reflected in the remaining characters and it is then only right to see the effect of his loss on the rest of them and how that affects their futures.

If the film had ended with his death, and Saito saying something like, "Thanks for treating my grand-son, and by the way I knew your father he was a great man", and that was it, we would feel cheated because we would be wondering what happened to the others (in fact my only criticism would be that we never discovered what happened to his wife, although the fact that Mitsu had to be looked after by Chiaki hints that she might have taken her own life).

The death scene maybe is a little melodramatic, but once again sets us up for the last quarter by shifting the emphasis onto the supporting characters, starting with those that initiated his journey, his family, and then those that find him, his friends.

If the above doesn't tally with your experience, I can totally understand, but I must say that, in my opinion, it couldn't have ended much better.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] vicky_lc2001-1 13 years ago

I agree the last quarter creates less of an impact. It has nothing to do with the violence ending, but at the end it takes a dramatic U-Turn attempting to shift the emotion and story onto anyone around. The son, the friend of the son, this all seems as though it could have been cut. Also I found the death scene not very moving. It seems to me as though we are being told what to feel with the speech about his daughter etc. I would have preferred it that after he was given the rice balls, the next scene is them coming in and finding him dead. It was a brilliant film though.

^^^I agree Snakes, the direction of the film at the end focusing on many various characters was another problem. The film wasn't as focused towards the end as it was in the beginning. I had issues with the death scenes as well, & like you, I would've preferred the whole monologue to have been cut, it wasn't effective & let's admit it, he is no Al Pacino. A film should be subtle in directing an audience' attention or emotion, this was banging us over the head repeatedly.

OPEN YOUR EYES! dailymotion.com/video/xbi2hi_1993-chandler-molestation-extortion_news

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[–] kurama_tengu 19 years ago

I really enjoyed this movie, but there were 2 important questions that were left unanswered. 1. What happened to Yoshimura's wife Shizu, and 2. What became of the third child, who I believe was a son? For sure, the viewers should have been informed on the fate of Shizu, and since the 3rd child was mentioned by Yoshimura during the movie, it was mysterious how viewers did not see the character once, nor know of what happened to him.

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[–] Erazorized 19 years ago

Almost a year now since i posted the original message, and i apologise it looks dumb and does not give the right picture of what i thought about the film.

Let's try again. I liked this movie, I really did, it had it's moments, good and bad. First half of the movie is the better half however, the characters are even a bit interesting and the actors aren't _that_ bad. I enjoyed both in this movie, the emotional depth, and the nicely done action scenes, which seems way more realistic than in "the last samurai" for example. Even though I'm not a big fan of action movies, there is just this samurai thing...

And the ending, for christ sake. It really blew my mind, in a negative way. The terrible acting combined to ultra-slow pace with all the stupid cliched (hollywood-like) scenes with WAY too much wiping. No, dont get me wrong, I actually enjoy slow paced movies, but if the (slow) scenes are EMPTY as in this movie, I do not enjoy them.

My opinion has changed a bit as I've watched this movie again. As a conclusion I just say it WOULD be an average samurai drama, if the terrible ending wouldn't completely ruin it. I call it 5/10 now.

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[–] duckfart 19 years ago

just to point out. Saito Hajime was a real person:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajime_Saito

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] takahara_hideyoshi 19 years ago

the old man is ono family servants, you must have seen this man frequenlty in the movie. about the thing he put under the door, i have no idea.

btw this movie is great, and i even have to shade my tears at the end, altough im a boy :)

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[–] vicky_lc2001-1 13 years ago

That was the biggest problem, the bridge & the death scene was a textbook CLICHED scene out of a B Hollywood film, it's even more jarring since the film had great potential. People think that just bec this is a Japanese film, it should be exempted from the criticism we give to poorly made Hollywood films.

OPEN YOUR EYES! dailymotion.com/video/xbi2hi_1993-chandler-molestation-extortion_news

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[–] writelasse 19 years ago

I wasn´t moved at all by the ending. He had a choice to leave the battle but decided to fight and to die, instead of returning home to his family. Well, he didn´t die, and on and on it goes about him talking about his family, but he already had abandoned them by doing his own little kamikaze thing against the emperors troops. The last part of the movie turns into questionable propaganda about sacrificing oneself for the sake of honour regardless of the ones one leaves behind. This makes me incredibly angry.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] mrura 14 years ago

1st of all... i agree with the OP about the last 1/4 of the movie. i just said almost the exact thing in another post -- 3/4 great, 1/4 miserably bad and overly dramatic to the point of ruining the movie.

my other complaint is what you just wrote, writelasse. it doesn't make sense. at one point, he tells his family (tearily) how his loyalty shall now be only to them and that NOTHING will get in the way of that. oh, unless it means running into a barrage of bullets to uphold his samurai code. uh, thanks dad/husband. hope it was worth it.

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[–] vicky_lc2001-1 13 years ago

Yeah, that was strange. It seemed like his move from a devoted husband doing what he must to save his family shifting to devoted samurai doing what he must to save his Lord/honor wasn't transitioned properly. It's like they decided to shift his character arc & then back again (when he goes back home) without bothering to transition the character, just cut & paste. What's with that?

OPEN YOUR EYES! dailymotion.com/video/xbi2hi_1993-chandler-molestation-extortion_news

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[–] vicky_lc2001-1 13 years ago

I had a problem with the ending as well, but you could see it even earlier, when he was about to leave his clan & he was at the bridge with his 2 children, the music was overpowering & unnecessary IMO. It seemed too over the top, as if queuing us to enter a **cry now scene**. But the part that I had the most issue with was when he was ordered to seppuku & he was talking to the camera, it was too tacky & in your face. You can have a dramatization & achieve it with subtlety. I have a feeling the director wasn't very good with handling drama, or the subtlety of drama & didn't know how to achieve it properly. It was too overtly sentimental, as if we the viewer had to be pounded in the head that this was a touching & crying scene. maybe the director didn't have enough confidence in his capabilities in this department. It's like cooking, you need to know when enough is enough & what ingredients work to make the perfect blend. Art is the same, you need to know when to stop & where to put the touches, otherwise it ends up a jumbled mess. This movie had great potential in the right hands.

OPEN YOUR EYES! dailymotion.com/video/xbi2hi_1993-chandler-molestation-extortion_news

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[–] ranran-001 11 years ago

I have to agree that somewhere the film's good dramatic spirit just fell flat somewhere around the last 30 or so minutes. Up until that point I liked what I was seeing, I liked hearing about Yoshimura and what he stood for. There were however a few things I didn't understand, like Yoshimura not defecting against his new clan, which could have been explained a lot better. Loyalty vs. money would only make sense if he was not a high achiever and not in dire straits, since his family was still poor I would have thought he should have defected.

But when he takes up the job of leadership, it felt false, and after hearing him talk to his wife about his loyalty to her, I wasn't convinced he would risk his life over the well being of his family. Running into a crowd of armed gunners was something I don't think a person loyal to their family would do unless pushed into it.

I have simply seen a better film that dealt with themes of family versus clan loyalty called Twilight Samurai which dealt with the exact same issues but in a more convincing way. So yes the first 90 minutes or so was pretty good, but then towards the end, as soon as his former friend tells him to commit hara-kiri, the pacing of the film comes to a halt. It was like the scene would not end as he tells each of his family members a goodbye, by name, then starts counting money for what feels like 5 minutes saying "oh this was going to buy my son a sword, this a kimono for mitsu..." I was just ready to hit the fast forward button. This movie was really trying my patience, and if that were not enough, after Yoshimura's death, every single character had something to say to his corpse, ugh.

I would have given this movie a 7/10 had it been a better ending. 7/10 meaning I liked it once and would recommend it to anyone looking for a decent samurai film they haven't seen yet. But it gets a 6/10 for me, meaning it had a lot of potential and was living up to it's potential until it fell apart somewhere.

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