MovieChat Forums > The Forgotten (2004) Discussion > The whole movie is about living with par...

The whole movie is about living with paranoid-schizophre nia......

posted 19 years ago by hugh_jass22
184 replies | jump to latest

I never thought I would sign up for a movie discussion forum, but I'm compelled to since I think that many viewers of the movie have missed the whole point.

It's not that complicated. No X-files-type alien stuff going on.

Basically, this woman gets up everyday and sends her kid off to school. Some days she's OK, and some days, some hours later, she'll call her psychiatrist and say frantically, "Where's my baby boy?!, Oh My God!, they've taken away my baby!!"

After spending most of the day running around town, making up all kinds of paranoid stories, and making up characters to support them, (who all end up being sucked up into the sky....did you notice that?), or looking for that microfilm of a plane crash that never happened (that must be disappointing when yer so sure it did....) our hero is relieved to find her son safe at the local playground, unharmed. THAT day she says it's just to straighten his coat up or something, tomorrow it'll be some other reason.

If only her son had turned to another kid and said, "Yup, that's my mom, she gets that way sometimes.", then maybe more viewers would've understood, but good writers and director's don't want to give everything away.

So that boils it down for me. That's why many think it's a silly movie with a silly ending, when in fact it's a window into the life of those who are using our under-funded mental health system everyday... ...... THE FORGOTTEN.....!

cheers, HJ

P.S.

Ok, I'm looking back and I'm thinking that readers will probably be asking for more actual movie scene examples to support my view.

If you've ever spent an hour with someone who is paranoid-schizophrenic, you'll know that when you walk in the room as they are talking to people who aren't actually there, they will clam up. They know who's really standing in front of them and who's not, and whether it's acceptable behaviour in public. If people constantly asked you for several years, "Who are you talking to? There's no one else here.", you would eventually learn when to clam up when one of the real ones entered the room.

So what happens to the imaginary person that was just talking to the delusioned person?

The director chose to represent this with the special effect of having them sucked up into the sky.

Did you notice that the hotel she was staying at was only a couple of blocks from her house? That's right, the aerial camera shot moves down to the hotel on the other side of the Brooklyn (?) Bridge. The whole psychotic episode that day takes place in the couple of acres around that bridge, her house, the playground, the hotel. In her mind, she drove miles to a cabin and interrogated one of "THEM", who know the "truth", when in fact it never happened. Again, the director represented this by having the interrogated guy sucked up into the sky, this time along with the roof of the cabin, because, you guessed it, the cabin was really just the hotel room 3 blocks from her house.

The movie began with a visit from her psychiatrist (where do they get these ones who make house-calls, eh?) who has to explain to her that "No, you didnt have a coffee, I was here the whole time." That set the stage for the whole premise. Moore's character deals with little delusions and hallucinations (like thinking she just had a coffee when in fact she didn't), and sometimes big ones. Most days, she just goes to her son's drawer and looks at his stuff for an hour a day while he's at school, and that's enough for her. But sometimes, she will have an bigger episode, like the one that the movie centers around.

On the other side of the coin are the people who are real, who are not plucked from in front of her and taken to the sky. These folks are real, and Moore's character substitutes them into her delusions. "Hey, aren't you my husband?!" (that guy never got plucked to the heaven's). Or, "Yeah, that's right, that guy on the swing at the park, yeah, he had the same thing happen to him! Honest, he told me!" That guy also never got sucked up to the deep blue sky. Poor fella, minding his own business on the swing, never knowing that this woman he barely knows has been including him in her delusion today.

But those who weren't real, from the supportive female cop, hot on the trail, to the insider who she interrogated in the cabin, to the "Aliens" who are testing the strength of a mother's bond to a child....all imagined, fleeting thoughts included to support the main character's behaviour, because naturally, she's not crazy, it's just the rest of us that don't believe her.

So to reiterate, the true FORGOTTEN, are the ones who deal with this infliction every day in a mental health care system that falls short on resources to help them in any long-term fashion.

Now I will search the internet to find out what the director really intended. Maybe I'm all wrong and it WAS just (as another one wrote) a lengthy Outer Limits/ X-files episode with aliens and no greater intended social meaning.

best regards,

HJ

[–] mike334 19 years ago

Good point, but are you sure the screenwriter did come up with something this intelligent? In most reviews I've seen, they all said the director's purpose was to emphasize the mother-child bond.

[–] hugh_jass22 19 years ago

Hi Mike334,

I know what you are saying.

I really do think that there was more to the writing of this movie than having aliens come and test our human-child bond.

Here are some reasons I think so.

The reviews you've seen, (and I haven't actually read any), would be from film critics I assume from newspapers, magazines etc. I would think there is an unwritten code of ethics that when one writes a review, one does not "let the entire cat out of the bag" for the potential movie goer to leave their house to see your movie. The average media film critic I assume is only allowed to comment on what is known about the movie, not much more than what is available to the viewers through the movie trailers, magazine ads etc. If the critics were to "give it away" everytime, as a movie director, you would probably pretty perturbed, as well as the producer who forked out the cash to make the film. You want viewers to "see it for themselves", discuss the film afterwards and so on.

Another clue for me is simply the cover art for the movie. We have Julianne Moore's top half of her head missing, replaced by hazy, distorted human shapes around her.

And professionally, for the A-list actors who agreed to be involved in the film....I think they would rather be part of a film with some sort of real substance.

People would not enjoy the film as much if they already new the topic of the day was paranoid-schizophrenia. They would turn to their date when the curtain opened and say "Yes, I hear this one is about a mental disorder.". Then from that point on, every scene's response would be, "Oh that's right, she's just mentally ill....BORING.....what a dumb movie." The director, producers, actors et al., do not want that to happen.

The Forgotten aren't the kids that the aliens or government conspirators that were trying to make their parents forget.......that's why the ending is dumb for most people....if that really was it, the movie should've ended with the great mystery being solved for good. Both Moore's character and the guy on the swing never forgot their children. The boy and the girl are both at the playground. Moore never was even in the guys apartment, she was never ever with him for that whole fiasco because we see how he really hardly knows her at the end. Little does he know that for several hours before, he had been included in her delusions, and because he is a real person, he didn't get the big WHOOSH up into the sky like the other made up persons.

I just can't see it as a "WOW, we sure proved to those aliens that we have the strongest darn mother-child bonds this side of the milky way galaxy" type of movie.

If the dvd has director commentary on it, I'll have to check it out. Maybe someone could?

best regards,

HJ

[–] mike334 19 years ago

I did a little search on off-stage comments and found a few pertinent links. They all seem to point to the standard interpretation.

Interview with Julianne Moore:
http://www.blackfilm.com/20040917/features/juliannemoore.shtml

Interview with Joseph Ruben:
http://www.chud.com/news/sept04/sept20forgot.php3

Interviews with director/writer:
http://www.woai.com/living/story.aspx?content_id=B4055245-D4C8-4581-B0D5-38A4E00944F1

I think your theory is pretty cool, but the supporting evidence is more likely due to flaws and plot holes in the film.

Guess I'm just a little cynical.

[–] hugh_jass22 19 years ago

Hey Mike334, thanks so much for those links! I was looking last night for exactly those kinds of articles.

I'd like to make some comments on them if I may.

Most of these interviews are your standard media promotion type interviews. It's the classic..."We want the audience to decide for themselves." type of scenario. Movies like that do better on the big screen and at the box office. Often they also include aliens in the plot. :) (just kidding!) Otherwise, you would do a made-for-television movie for 8pm Sunday on ABC starring Valerie Bertinelli.

Julianne Moore is not going to go on Jay Leno to promote the movie and say, "Look, this is what it all about", they want us to get our wallets out and go for ourselves. They are in the business of selling movies, we can't ignore that.

Instead of copying and pasting paragraphs of quotes from those links you provided, I will just paraphrase.

Director Joseph Ruben's interview:
http://www.chud.com/news/sept04/sept20forgot.php3

Q: How hard to balance sense of unknown with what’s really happening?

Joe: We needed to know, those of us making the movie, what is real and what isn’t real. The character that Julianne Moore plays, she doesn’t know what’s real. That’s the obvious thing. She’s in a world where she will do anything to get back her son, up to the point of willing to die to get him back. The only problem is, there’s a really good chance the son never existed and exists only in her mind. So that’s the core of the movie, that question. Is the son real or has Julianne Moore’s character had a psychotic break with reality.

{ ok, so the director says the core of the movie is, "Is the son real?". Wow, and I thought the big question was "who covered up that guy's daughter's walls with paper!" :) So, if that is the question, I propose that the son IS REAL, because everything looks hunky dory at the end. ie: the hollywood ending that some viewers just hate, so they prefer the alternate ending where the alien walks away and says, "OK, you got us, we could'nt make you forget him." }

Q: Is this really hard to talk about without giving stuff away?

Joe: Oh yeah. There’s a lot of elements, and as we go deeper into the movie, we start to get an inkling of what may really be happening. And it gets pretty wild.

[{Gets pretty wild? Why Joe? Because the producers said aliens are real hot this year, put some in? }]

Q: Do you give a definitive answer at the end?

Joe: We give a definitive answer. I hate movies where you never really know what happened. I think if you really do a good job of getting the audience invested in the characters and in what is happening, not to pay it off and resolve it is just a cheat.

*[{ I agree, I think they wrapped this movie up with a nice tight little bow and handed it to us on a silver platter. Again, good movies don't spoon feed us }]*

Another quote from the interview:

"That dilemma of thinking- - well, in this case, it gets beyond just worrying about the safety of your kid. She starts to question her own sanity, with good reason. Because everybody, starting with her husband, her shrink the record of this plane crash which she thinks killed her son isn’t in any of the papers and any public records. Her best friend lives next store, is telling her she has no kid, that she’s had a psychotic break. Everyone in her world is telling her she’s had this break with reality and has invented this kid."

*[{ Does this support aliens or paranoiod-schizo? I propose it supports paranoiod-schizo. Did the aliens get to the her neighbour too? Her 'husband'? How about the librarian? Did the aliens get to the librarian too? Sounds like these aliens did a pretty good job of getting to all of New York didn't they?? }]*

Some quick comments on the Julianne Moore interview:
http://www.blackfilm.com/20040917/features/juliannemoore.shtml

JM: "from the very start of the movie you are questioning her veracity and her sanity just as she is."

*[{ I have to agree Julianne, I propose that she does suffer from a mental disorder and I know your contract obligations won't allow you just go on the David Letterman show to come out and tell us. }]*

Q: What was fascinating about this film?

JM: I got hooked into it right away. Is she crazy or not crazy? I was really intrigued because so many films don't involve you emotionally.

*[{ I prefer not to use the term "crazy", but if I have to pick a side, I'm choosing the "crazy" over aliens covering walls with wallpaper any day of the week. }]*

Your character does a lot of running in the film. Is that the most you've ever ran in a film?

JM: Yeah I ran and ran in this. Sometimes it was good because it was cold and the running kept me warm. It's funny because I ran for five weeks in this movie and when I first started I kept pulling my quads. Then I switched to black sneakers and it got better. I like doing the action stuff because it's fun and challenging.

*[{ Ok, what sneakers she's wearing isn't important here, but the whole running thing in filmography is one of the oldest cinematic schticks in the playbook. "What is she running from? Could she be running from herself? etc. etc. etc. }]*

Some trailers give too much of the movie that no one is surprised at what happens in the film. Are you happy with the way the trailer for this film is set up?

JM: They have all these marketing ideas that I'm not privy too. They have all these ideas about what they show and what they can't show. I don't think the trailers for The Forgotten give anything away.

*[{ 'nuff said Julianne, I thought the movie was excellent. }]*

Just to add some more thoughts and personal experience, and this is what gives me this whole overall perspective.

My neighbour tells me that the reason my mother retired and moved out east is because she's in the witness protection program. This neighbour also says that George Bush has satellites following her. The other day it's, "Look at my hands! Don't you see them, they're crooked. They put acid on my hands and now they're crooked!" To which my reponse is, "Wow, that's really something, you were just helping me shovel the snow out of my driveway 5 min ago, did you have any pain?" The Forgotten movie moment equivalent is " So...you have a husband do you, so how's the sex been lately?" Every scene has a purpose, and the purpose of that 1 minute exchange is to point out that there is no husband in her life, as further proven when she approached that actor from E.R. in public and he had no idea who she was. I guess the aliens got to him too, eh?

So, basically, the whole movie centered around a day that she was off her meds and was spewing out nonsense to her doctor. When her doctor decides that today's session is over, she goes down to playground and all's well. It's really that simple, we really don't have to sort out who was covering walls with paper!

If folks would rather sort out aliens and government conspiracies, then that's also fine. Just enjoy the entertainment value I guess.

best regards, and thanks again for those links!

HJ

[–] ibahl 19 years ago

I'm not sure if your theory totally works, Hugh, but it's definitely interesting. I came into this thread expecting a cartoonish, pop-culture interpretation of schizophrenia, so I was releived to find your post informed and thoughtful.

At the end of the movie, when Telly talks to Ash in the park, it makes sense if their memories have been manipulated. But if you watch that interaction from the viewpoint that she's been crazy the whole time, the scene still works. He's friendly enough to her that it kind of seems like he already knows her, and when she introduces herself, his reaction does seem kind of half-surprised and sad. Like she's forgotten him before, but it still kind of caught him off guard because she was talking to him like she knew him, so he thought that this wasn't one of her bad days. Then he says, "I think we've met before." I know I've said that on numerous occasions to crazy people that I clearly remember far better than they remember me. If you interpret it as the whole thing being a delusion, then his reactions in that scene are pretty consistent with someone who is friends with a person who has a mental illness. Sort of sad and wishing you could do something to help, but knowing that there's really nothing you can do except try to be their friend.

But you say that no real people get sucked up, and I'm pretty sure Ash got sucked up when he jumped out of the window with the alien dude. Of course, just because he's real doesn't mean she can't have delusional interactions with him when he's not there.

[–] hugh_jass22 19 years ago

Thanks for your input Ibahl.

First of all, I would just like to say that I think my favourite part in the movie was probably when the female cop was at that house by the water, I believe, and she came over to Moore, and her hair's all frazzled, and the whites of her eyes are looking right through Julianne Moore. I remember thinking, "Oh baby, here we go, she's a gonner, wait for it....then WHOOSH!!!" LOL, that's a scene I remember well. Why they were at that house in the first place and what they accomplished there, I still have no idea.

Since it came up twice that I mentioned a real character who did in fact get the big whoosh into the sky, ( I'm taking your words for it now because I only saw the flick once.) I'll have to clarify that not just the made up characters in her delusions would get the suck up to the sky, BUT anyone or anything put into her delusions, real or otherwise would be. Why not? Afterall, they are DELUSIONS aren't they? My whole theory of the writer's intent doesn't all hang on whether he or she gets sucked up by the clouds does it? I hope I presented more evidence then that.

I have questions of my own then for the "aliens are erasing the memories of all New Yorkers" theorists.

1) What was the director's purpose for showing the scene about whether or not she had a coffee? --I propose that it was to show us early on that she has delusions. Period.

2) What was the director's purpose for the scene where her 'husband' has absolutely no recollection of ever meeting her before? -- I again propose that it is to show us that she has delusions.

Now, lasttruromantic, in his post in this thread, he has his own explanation for this.... --- "We can just assume his memories of their marriage were erased as an act of desperation on the part of the aliens to try to make her think she was delusional." --- We'll assume alien desperation. This is brilliant stuff. I'm speechless. Have you thought about writing?

3) What was the director's purpose for the scene where the librarian is desparately trying to help Ms. Moore find a microfilm containing a story of this plane crash that never happened? -- Yet again, I propose that it is to show us that she has delusions.

4) What was the director's purpose for the camera work showing that the hotel she was in, was a mere couple of blocks from her home? -- You guessed it. I propose that it was to show us that only "someone not in their right mind" would get a room that is shouting distance from home.

Other observations:

Wasn't the bankrupt airline called "Quest"? Beautiful. Just Brilliant. She enters the warehouse in her QUEST to seek the truth and put an end to this. She comes face to face with her psychosis in a vast emptiness that she won't escape from until she beats it. Once and for all? We'll never know. I propose that when she's off her meds she may go through something like that episode monthly, yearly, who knows.
{ nice psychiatrist by the way, eh? Her doctor suddenly disappears as soon as she goes in. Nice guy huh? "I'm outta here, you can do this on yer own Julianne, I'm taking the bus home, had a long day today. Good luck with that alien in there."}

So, I feel that her psychotic episode begins as soon as she starts seeing photo albums with nothing in them anymore. One moment her doctor is pointing out that she never had a coffee { "but the taste is so real doc...." --hello, dellusions anyone?) to her doc saying she never had a baby. Ok Mr. Psychiatrist, which is it? Make up your mind.

So we see this change in the doc, and what do you know, now we have a husband now in the mix, sitting at the table too! All these people telling me I never had a baby, ahhh, I'm going nuts! **** Clearly her delusions are getting worse by the minute.*****

So, she's at her own table, she can't see pictures correctly anymore, she believes she's got a husband in the room with her, and she starts spewing to her doc who is still there thinking....."Holy crap, it was just a misperception about a coffee, now what the heck is going on??" It's at that point that story time begins, and reality is never back for good until the playground scene.

That's how I see it. Gosh, I read some other threads on this movie and so much time is spent on speculating on what the aliens were doing, when really folks, it doesn't have to be that complicated.

I can't be the only one that sees it this way.....can I?

HJ

[–] lasttruromantic 19 years ago

If you want to use the husband to support your theory of total psychosis, then there are a couple things to explain:

If he truely had never met her and had no idea who she was, then why was he in her delusions throughout the movie?

When they were at the hotel, ash told her to get jim to say sam's name the way she got him to say loren's name, then he too might remember. Then she said that jim usually leaves the office at 4:15. So how would she know when to run into him if he's just a random guy she threw in her delusion?

[–] hugh_jass22 19 years ago

Hi lasttruromantic,

I'll respond the two points you make.

"If he (husband) truely had never met her and had no idea who she was, then why was he in her delusions throughout the movie? "

If I said "I don't know.", would my whole perspective unravel? I don't think so. Why does she insert this man as her husband? Why does she need a man at all? She might've not even been married to anyone when she got pregnant and now has some sort of social guilt about it. Maybe her conservative family has a problem being unmarried with a child. She might goe around the neighbour hood saying "That's right, yes, I do have a husband, I don't live alone, he's at work alot, yeah, that's right...." ( again, remember the "how's the sex question") That's all details with many permutations, why would anyone agree on why she needs to put a husband in her life? So why would the director make it an important point then? To show us that she includes actual street people in her delusions. That's not a stretch is it? Especially in this day and age when wackos are able to stalk celebrities and know exactly where there having dinner today? Maybe she has most of her appointments downtown at the doc's office, and it finishes every other day at, I don't know, 4:00 pm, takes the elevator down and sees the same balding guy leaving his office building, right on time. Whatever, these are unimportant details, we don't have to work that out.

Again,
She's trying to support her story as she's telling it to her psychiatrist over a coffee that she thinks she tastes!

-- "and there's this guy at the park, yeah, he said the same thing happened to him, I even went over to his apartment to really open his eyes about the whole thing. They had covered his daughter's walls. I saw it for myself."

-- " you gotta believe me doc, there's this female cop also, she understands, she's trying to help me too."

-- "seriously Dr. Jack Munce, we were in this cabin and we found one of them in the trees nearby. We saw him facing the other way, minding his own business. He never even saw us coming. Then we tied him to a chair, and dammit, he almost told me the whole thing, but he could't because the aliens that are trying to erase our memories took him."

Due to Doctor/Patient confidentiality, I'm not permitted to finish the entire conversation line by line, LOL!

So the movie puts visuals to her whole delusional story....how can that be difficult to accept?

best regards,

HJ

[–] dcut74 19 years ago

I watched some of the interviews and some of the directors commentary and came to the consclusion that it is just an alien movie. However, it is more interesting with your idea. I kind hope you are wrong, because it would make me feel really stupid to watch a movie like that and not get it-unless david lynch wrote it or something. And I think they would know that they would have to make it more pronounced, The idea that she really was crazy really never occured after a while, probably because on the cover I think they compare it to the sixth sense. But that comparison could support your theory too.
dave

[–] vfrance-1 17 years ago

****WARNING--POSSIBLE MULLHOLLAND DRIVE SPOILERS!****

You brought up David Lynch, and that leads to a conclusion that now seems rather obvious to me. If the "delusional schizophrenic" theory is correct, then this film is a far less sophisticated rip-off of Mullholland Drive!

Think about it--the made-up characters who do strange, inexplicable things. The "aliens" in this film are comprable to Naomi Watt's delusions, only her delusions (in the form of a dream) were far more varied and complex, and far more subtle (think about the director pouring paint on his cheating wife's jewelry). More examples are the shooting of the housekeeper in the motel, the weird guy who saw something/someone behind the dumpster, the woman with amnesia, the theater scene--a lot of things that in retrospect seemed just a little bit "off."

Just as in Mullholland Drive, Juliane Moore's character invents a close relationship with someone who was actually more distant--Watts because she had been rejected, and Moore because she knew Ash only from the playground.

In short, the aliens in this film are a stand-in for Watt's delusion in Mulholland Drive that the only reason she could not have the part in the film was that there was a sinister conspiracy at play. This provides them with explanations that allow their delusions to continue.

I enjoyed The Forgotten to a certain extent, but it can't compare to Mullholland Drive for a true *beep* experience. David Lynch, being a far more sophisticated and talented artist, presented the most accurate depiction ever of what a dream is really like. For this reason, Mullholland Drive stands alone despite the similarities to The Forgotten.

But if you think about it, a delusional person would have imagined more dramatic and "in-your-face" scenarios, whereas someone having a dream doesn't even know that anything is amiss until they wake up, hence the subtlety. So we can give The Forgotten that, at least.

Just some thoughts!

"I guess I started smoking when I was about...four."

[–] daredevlj 19 years ago

To HJ

I liked your interpretation of the movie, but I think you are trying to dig too deep. There is one major flaw in your argument (I am referring to your first post). Her psychiatrist keeps telling her that she never had a son. Your theory, as I understood it, was that she did have a son, but she kept thinking he was abducted and would go crazy and shout for him at the playground. But then, why would her pyschiatrist tell her she never had a son?

[–] hugh_jass22 19 years ago

Hi daredevilj,

The change in the doc's behaviour is an excellent observation, that I in fact did make in a later post, and since you mentioned you had read the first post, I don't know if you had read later ones.

Here is a copy and paste of text from a later one:

**** begin quote
So, I feel that her psychotic episode begins as soon as she starts seeing photo albums with nothing in them anymore. One moment her doctor is pointing out that she never had a coffee { "but the taste is so real doc...." --hello, dellusions anyone?) to her doc saying she never had a baby. Ok Mr. Psychiatrist, which is it? Make up your mind.

So we see this change in the doc, and what do you know, now we have a husband now in the mix, sitting at the table too! All these people telling me I never had a baby, ahhh, I'm going nuts! **** Clearly her delusions are getting worse by the minute.*****

So, she's at her own table, she can't see pictures correctly anymore, she believes she's got a husband in the room with her, and she starts spewing to her doc who is still there thinking....."Holy crap, it was just a misperception about a coffee, now what the heck is going on??" It's at that point that story time begins, and reality is never back for good until the playground scene. **** end quote

Paranoid-schizophrenics will absolutely stand there and look you in the eyes and claim that you just said such and such. There's no stretch there. So, one minute the doc is asking about her son and how often she looks at the photos, then he's part of the delusion that everyone wants her to forget her son. The scene just lets us know at what point the doc's behaviour has now become part of her delusion, otherwise, what's the point of that exchange, to show us that aliens have gotten to the doc also? It's at that point, that first clue that people she knows or imagined, will be saying all kinds of things they never did.

On that particular day, she's completely lost it. Photos don't appear like they should, the doctor is now taken a 180 degree turn. All she knows is she has a son, but today for some reason, it seems everyone, from my doctor, to my 'husband', my neighbour, librarian....no one understands me today, it's not me dammit, it's all of New York who are nuts. Doesn't anyone in NY remember that plane crash just months ago? How come it's only me? I better make up some characters that will support me in this like that guy down the street who has a daughter. There's just no way that I'm the crazy one here!

Believe it or not, I'm also trying to find something completely obvious to disprove this idea, but frankly, it makes the ending make total sense, which is what a lot of viewers seem to have a problem with. I mean, I really hope the director and writer didn't make this plausible by complete accident. Otherwise, some film school professors would be shaking their heads.

HJ

[–] adria133 19 years ago

Why does the doctor have the husband's phone number in his computer if the husband never existed?
The schizo-concept is a good one and I think tightly wound to the plot to keep the questions coming and the drama elevated. But too much happens independent of JM's char. to assume she has Par Schiz. Furthermore, even in the multitude of schizoform diseases (schizophrenia does not refer to a single condition. There are numerous variations, including two major divisions and a variety of subdivisions) there is hardly a type that maintains a consistent and well-plotted hallucination. Certainly this doesn't mean that JM didn't have a kind of hollywood-esque schizo type disorder that allowed for the plot, but it's really a stretch.
She could, though, have had some kind of psychotic post traumatic stress disorder, or a "fugue" syndrome (Fugue is where someone ups and leaves their life and starts anew without ever knowing they even did it - almost like Syd Barret in Pink Floyd, except they forgot to pick him up for a show and he became an accountant instead) still, these are a stretch, i think, mostly due to the independence of the other characters.
I did not see the theatrical release, so i didn't see a screaming alien at the end. but i imagine that would have been inconsistent with the rest of the story. I do think there's enough evidence to support the alien hypothesis. My one major problem with the movie, and this does support large_derrier's hypothesis, is that upon the first WHOOSHING, both JM and her new beau seem rather nonplussed by said whoosing.
it was kind of like:

WHOOSH!
"you okay?"
"Yeah. how about you?"
"I'm cool."
"Cool."
"Hey I found this joint.":
"Let's smoke it."
"Okay."
"Okay."

So, um.....when there is such a revelation, when the wierd fear that aliens might actually be real and might have your son in captivity is proven true, wouldn't JM et al. have a bit more of a shocked reaction? Kind of like:

WHOOSH!
"Holy...."
*beep*
"You said it baby."
"Damn! What the hell was that????"
"I don't know, but that was one hell of a joint!"
"Yeah, it's my friend's sh!t. He grows his own."
"Oh yeah?"
"Yeah, he's cool."
"Does he like Spongebob?"
"Yeah, wanna go to his place and watch it?"
"What about the kids and the aliens?"
"Oh. Right. Damn. This is some good *beep*
"Yeah, where'd ya get it?"
"Oh this guy I know. He really likes Spongebob."
"Oh yeah?"
"yeah."

Like the Great and Wonderful Charles Henry Bukowski once said:
"It's turtles. Turtles all the way down"

Naw, for real though, i think it was aliens. and pot. really good pot.
On my binger scale, this movie is pretty good with four, well placed hits of the chronic. (but not for you kids under 18!!!)

[–] Goodbye_from_Fox_In_A_Box 13 years ago

They set up the beginning of the movie, her thinking she had coffee, thinking where her car was parked, so the viewer would not know if she was making Sam up or not. It's as simple as that. Nothing more to be read there.
"I hardly know, which way is up, or which way down" - "I Feel Possessed", Neil Finn

[–] nnq2603 10 years ago

First, I like your theory and the open-mind way of thinking about the movie.

But the more you try to block it up into your own opinion/theory, the less I agree with you, the less your comments make sense and the less convincing it get. Also I believe other people do so.

You quickly lost your credit by trying too hard for the thing that just a opinion of your own.

Good or bad, even intelligent or simple, it's still only your opinion, your own theory, don't force people swallow it the way you do. You keep saying that's your opinion but act like you're the director and your idea is only one solid single truth.

[–] morganseer 8 years ago

Thank you, for pointing out so earnestly that the OP's opinion is just an opinion. Without your astute observation we would have entirely missed it.

And pray, what manner of violence is he inflicting on you to force the aforementioned opinion on you? A gun to your head? A sword at your throat? Forty lashes with a cat o'nine tails if you don't read it?

[–] littlesibbie 19 years ago

But if he's just some random guy, why does she know his full name when she tries to talk to him?

It's quite possible I'm missing something, so if I am, please let me know.

[–] not_richjenkins 19 years ago

"

1) What was the director's purpose for showing the scene about whether or not she had a coffee? --I propose that it was to show us early on that she has delusions. Period. "

if they were trying to make her think she made up her family, then obviously theyd have no problem pretending she had a freaking cup of coffee

[–] smittyfan1 19 years ago

Also another point to maybe support your theory: in addition to the coffee incident and some other things, what about the scene where she goes outside and tells some guy she was parked in his spot, but then he points out that her car is parked on the other side of the street, and she looks very confused? That was a little fishy to me.

[–] carpet_seller 17 years ago

The scene as with all the scenes works for both view points aliens/schizo.

Aliens: It was to make her doubt herself.

Schizo: It was to show us she was unbalanced, and she then used that (innocent) guys face in her delusions for that day.

[–] dedoc1967 19 years ago

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
by - hugh_jass22:
Wasn't the bankrupt airline called "Quest"? Beautiful. Just Brilliant. She enters the warehouse in her QUEST to seek the truth and put an end to this. She comes face to face with her psychosis in a vast emptiness that she won't escape from until she beats it. Once and for all? We'll never know. I propose that when she's off her meds she may go through something like that episode monthly, yearly, who knows.
{ nice psychiatrist by the way, eh? Her doctor suddenly disappears as soon as she goes in. Nice guy huh? "I'm outta here, you can do this on yer own Julianne, I'm taking the bus home, had a long day today. Good luck with that alien in there."}
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I much prefer this scenario to the aliens, and in my mind it was the movie I was watching because the alternative (i.e. aliens) was too silly. Also, a clue I think you neglected to mention was when the psychiatrist says to the alien (the manifestation of her illness) that this has gone too far and needs to stop. Then he tells her that if she goes any farther he will be unable to help her -- which is to say she's at a breaking point, perhaps a self-warning.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
by - hugh_jass22:
So we see this change in the doc, and what do you know, now we have a husband now in the mix, sitting at the table too! All these people telling me I never had a baby, ahhh, I'm going nuts! **** Clearly her delusions are getting worse by the minute.*****
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A point that confused me, and this was more a camera-POV question, is when she shows her husband the photo of the three of them with the now-absent son that the child appears to have disappeared from the photo for real. He, presumably, sees what we see. This may have been a red herring, but I think it would've been more honest to just not have us see him see the photo with the removed child.

Also, one of the first things she says to the husband as a joke is that she's editing a book called "Psychotic Women and the Men Who Love Them".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
by - hugh_jass22
I can't be the only one that sees it this way.....can I?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope. :)

[–] subase 13 years ago

Your mention of the poster/dvd cover is enough to convince me. Always found that image strange as it never really had anything to do with the film, but with your interpretation makes perfect sense.

I say this cause the poster deliberately mimics the iconic image of the 'erased mouth', 'talk no evil'. But in this case instead of over the mouth it's over the head. She has had her mind shut or closed in some way, which is of course the exact opposite of what happens in the film.

So the poster suggest her mind was not shut or closed, but messed up, leading straight to the theory that she's mentally ill.

[–] Goodbye_from_Fox_In_A_Box 13 years ago

Oy. It's a movie called what? The Forgotten. And where do you forget? Your brain. 'Nuff said.

"I hardly know, which way is up, or which way down" - "I Feel Possessed", Neil Finn

[–] slemmet 19 years ago

"Joe: We give a definitive answer. I hate movies where you never really know what happened. I think if you really do a good job of getting the audience invested in the characters and in what is happening, not to pay it off and resolve it is just a cheat."
Unless the director is lying, your theory is not what was intended, seeing that the alien version was the obvious one (definitive answer), and not your theory. Though if you make your theory work, and it makes people think from a different angle, it may make the movie more interesting. However I think the director killed your theory with that statement.

[–] hugh_jass22 19 years ago

Hi slemmet,

just to comment,

"Joe: We give a definitive answer. I hate movies where you never really know what happened. I think if you really do a good job of getting the audience invested in the characters and in what is happening, not to pay it off and resolve it is just a cheat."

I don't think the director gave anything away there did he? He just said they give a definitive answer.

Apparently, it wasn't definitive enough because there are a boat-load of posts from folks who have many unanswered questions. Alot of people are left unsatisfied, wondering what the heck the big surprise or plot-twist was. If you buy into the 'it's just aliens' answer, then I can see why so many have questions about the ending. I don't think throwing in some aliens will 'wow' audiences anymore, hence the many posts with negative reviews.

I'm proposing the 'it was her all along' scenario, kind've like the Sixth Sense. Maybe on that discussion board there are folks saying it was ghosts all along, but in that movie, they chose to spell it all out for us at the end, no confusion.

If we leave ourselves open to Telly's paranoia, then I believe one would also see less confusion.

HJ

[–] Goodbye_from_Fox_In_A_Box 13 years ago

hj, again, you're reaching. We don't know until almost halfway through the movie whether Sam really existed or not. It's not until Ash remembers his daughter that the audience is like, "ok, she's not crazy", and I think that's what they mean when they say that; that we don't know if she's crazy for a lot of the movie.
Also, the movie DOES have a definitive end, and I'm only talking about the theatrical release. The experiment fails, the alien gets wooshed away and TPTB make everything the way things were before the experiment, except Telly remembers all. Happy ending, but definitive ending.

"I hardly know, which way is up, or which way down" - "I Feel Possessed", Neil Finn

[–] Cherry560-1 19 years ago

Oh My Gosh, HJ has alot of time on his hands..........

[–] Petie3-2 16 years ago

Very good. A different level; of course two other excellent and groundbreaking movies come to mind, (so to speak) 'Jacob's Ladder' and 'A Beautiful Mind' where you didn't know if what you were watching was 'real' or 'psychotic.' Memento also comes to mind. All three of these won numerous awards; I'm just thinking if 'Forgotten' was about psychosis then it was too subtle for the judges. Your interpretation is sound and may even be correct; we'll have to wait for the interviews.

[–] prafull-ambekar 10 years ago

Can you imagine, Aliens coming down to Earth to check of all the things in this world," The bond between A mother and her child? It not only sounds funny and cliches but overall, It's stupid. The point is I agree with Hugh Jass 22 what he has to say. She was schizophrenic and delusional. She imagined Things and heard voices.

[–] prafull-ambekar 10 years ago

[–] lasttruromantic 19 years ago

I have never been moved to post on a message board until today. Everyone has got this movie completely wrong...It's amazinging. The most prominent question I've read raised is why did the aliens need the government's help. They didn't. They did as they pleased, and the government was only there to clean up their mess; as the NSA agent said. The alien that we saw said, "...[W]e don't fully understand. So I posed the question, "can it be dissolved?" and it can.", also, "I want you to forget sam...if you don't, this experiment will fail, I'm accountable, I can't let that happen, and time is running out." So this is his experiment, which is why he has such a vested interest in seeing it succeed. When she reconstructs the memories of sam after he sucks away the one of his birth, we hear whispers and he says he needs more time...then he's sucked away, presumably because time had run out. So wehen she finds sam on the playground, we're made to understand that the experiment was terminated and everything was restored.

As for hugh_jass, while his theory is interesting, it doesn't work. All the characters who were sucked into the sky were real. If the cop lady wasn't real, then we wouldn't have seen her interacting with other people when Telly wasn't around. If the NSA agent wasn't real, then we wouldn't have seen his badge that was handed to the cop lady.

We can assume that all the people sucked into the sky had their memories of the experience erased and were put back into place, which is why Ash doesn't remember any of it. If you were paying attention, he too was sucked into the sky. When the alien was in ash's apartment and he pulled him out the window with him, when they were falling, one person was sucked up. We know that had to have been ash because when telly ran outside she didn't see his body, and the alien would have just gotten up and ran away/teleported out.

Also, if the experiences never happened, then how can the damage to the cabin and the airplane hangar be explained?

Other things of note:
*We know that telly and whatever her husband's name was, were together he called the cop lady and talked with her, and at another time with the psychiatrist. We can just assume his memories of their marriage were erased as an act of desperation on the part of the aliens to try to make her think she was delusional.

*I believe the coffee thing at the beginning was just a device used to keep the viewing thinking she's imagining it all until they start getting into the alien plot

[–] midlife_crisis_2 19 years ago

<<SPOILERS>>

I think you're both right. Any cogent interpretation of the film is valid. The brilliance of this movie is that it works both ways, as a literal alien-conspiracy movie and as a compelling portrait of florid paranoid psychosis. There are some plot contrivances that challenge the credibility of either theory, but those ambiguities didn't detract from the movie for me.

I watched both versions yesterday on DVD, and I much prefer the longer "alternate" ending with restoration of deleted scenes and no "screaming alien" at the end, which seemed oddly overstated and out of character for the alien, who had previously endured all sorts of abuse with bemused indifference. The theatrical release version was tighter but emotionally less satisfying to me. (I respect that other viewers will have had different experiences and opinions).

Hugh, your purely psychological interpretation is brilliant, even if it isn't necessarily what the filmmakers intended.

[–] dasergester 13 years ago

i'm going to try to revive a 6 year old thread. So yesterday I watched the Forgotten on Netflix. I actually own the dvd and have seen it many times. However, when I saw it yesterday, I thought to my self "This woman is probably crazy". Her behavior during the first part of the movie, before the other guy believes her is totally neurotic. But, I finished the movie thinking, "ok, so everyone thought she was crazy, but she was actually right." After reading this thread, i think its left up to the viewer for interpretation on whether the woman is crazy or aliens actually did abduct her son.

I took a film class back in college and we spent a great deal talking about why scenes are shot the way they are. Everything in a scene is there for a purpose, be it a physical purpose or a symbolic purpose. I noticed that in a lot of the scenes where she is confronting someone about her son, the frame is shot slanted. a slanted frame indicate friction or distortion. So one could argue her reality is distorted and there is no son and there is no aliens.

I think many of you bring up great points. I've always have thought this movie is great. it has a very eery mood to it and the "whoosh" moments are totally unexpected; except the one where the black detective gets "whooshed" away. We all knew that was coming. Hope all of you are well.

[–] Goodbye_from_Fox_In_A_Box 13 years ago

The screaming alien is VERY much in character once you realize that he has everything invested in this experiment and "time is running out" for him. Him screaming at her was a last ditch effort to scare the bejesus out of her into submitting to him. When she finally relents yet still remembers Sam, we see WHY the alien was screaming at her.....he failed and was wooshed away
.

"I hardly know, which way is up, or which way down" - "I Feel Possessed", Neil Finn

[–] adrian73 12 years ago

"If the cop lady wasn't real, then we wouldn't have seen her interacting with other people when Telly wasn't around."

You're right. Even my girlfriend said "wow... if she's crazy then she has a biiig imagination to alucinate all that stuff even when she's not around".
So, it was an alien-movie. Of course, HJ's theory is really great, but I think that was not the case here.

[–] morganseer 8 years ago

Actually, why not? Why couldn't she imagine interactions between others where she wasn't present? I totally buy it.

[–] grindbastard 19 years ago

Your version of the movie would have been much better by design. It's a great idea, but I think the film fell short of it.

[–] weero 19 years ago

A really satisfying explanation which - as you allude to - gives the movie a much sounder base.

So the nemesis has to be vaporized as well as it (or he in this case) will not fit in her ongoing daily life again. And the disappearance of the that alien marks the end of this particular seizure, or do I err?
Would it then not be more consistent to assume that she actually does have that child and only during her fit, the entire world around her denies the child's existence? Or is (temporarily) not seeing things or people a non typical pattern for this disease?

I seem to have missed a few details of the movie as I just saw in aboard United Airlines. The children got purportedly killed in a bus crash, basically eliminating all the threads and allusions to Quest airlines. Reading the posts though this form of censorship gets some entertainment value.

[–] hugh_jass22 19 years ago

Hi weero, excellent post.

"So the nemesis has to be vaporized as well as it (or he in this case) will not fit in her ongoing daily life again. And the disappearance of the that alien marks the end of this particular seizure, or do I err? "

-- you my friend, have got it exactly.

"Would it then not be more consistent to assume that she actually does have that child and only during her fit, the entire world around her denies the child's existence?"

-- that is exactly what I am assuming.

"Or is (temporarily) not seeing things or people a non typical pattern for this disease? "

-- with schizophrenics, it's not the seeing per se, it's the believing.

"I seem to have missed a few details of the movie as I just saw in aboard United Airlines. The children got purportedly killed in a bus crash, basically eliminating all the threads and allusions to Quest airlines. Reading the posts though this form of censorship gets some entertainment value."

-- I think the details you may have missed matters not to the overall picture. You know, it probably helps to have watched it on your flight. I also did not see it in that whole theatre environment with several hundred people gasping in unison.
For 90% of the film's time, after 1.5 hours or whatever, by the end of all that running around with the main character, we the viewer had nearly forgotten (no pun intended) that this is just one delusional story in this woman's mind.

thanks for posting,

cheers,
HJ

[–] communic-1 19 years ago

First hugh_jass22, I love the nick you've chosen !

And second, I WAS going to buy this film.

Have a great weekend !

F

[–] weero 19 years ago

Greetings hugh_jass22

Thanks again for the insight! I was about not to like the movie as long as I did believe in the extraterrestian setup. But your disorder explanation makes a lot more sense.

As you seem to have some knowledge into the topic, I have to rephrase my
question:
>> Or is (temporarily) not seeing things or people a non typical pattern for
>> this disease? "
> with schizophrenics, it's not the seeing per se, it's the believing.
What I should have asked: it is common for schizophrenics to see or 'feel' persons or things around them which aren't factually there. But is it also common (maybe less common) not to notice or to negate the presence of people or items in their vicinity.
If it is not common, then there is only your original explication for the plot left, and the seizure must have taken place in a small interval of time when she did not see her child. Otherwise when she can 'miss' items, the fit could have taken place in real time with her not realizing what happened around her (and not only realizing too much).

In either case thanks for the great theory!

[–] 19 years ago

[deleted]

[–] heypigg-1 19 years ago

so if her husband was some random stranger on the street inserted into her delusions, how did she know his full name?
i'm sorry but this movie WAS about aliens. it could have been a lot better if she was crazy, but she was not.
i wish i could forget that i watched this movie.

[–] hugh_jass22 19 years ago

Hi heypigg-1,

you said, "so if her husband was some random stranger on the street inserted into her delusions, how did she know his full name? "

excellent question, but one that I never dwelled on.

Here's why.

When I was 'crazy' about my girlfriend I didn't have a full name for her either. All I had was a first name and what floor she worked on as a nurse in the hospital that I also worked on. Down at the employment opportunities board, there was the whole senority list for all full-time employees, what floor they work on and when their start date as a full-time employee was. That led me to the phonebook and the rest is history.

Now if this story didn't end up with a sane ending, and I was some crazy stalker dude, I easily could've been going around claiming that we were married and have children together. Ever heard of stories like this?

You don't want me to come on here and give a crash course on stalking people do you? I consider myself pretty sane, but even that story might creep some people out.

I'm backing up my psychosis theory with real world examples now. I didn't think it would come to that! LOL.

Could we please hear from someone with real-world alien examples? :)

regards,
HJ

[–] xxstonexx 19 years ago

I have to say, HJ, that I like your interpretation a lot, it's much more satisfying. I wish the film makers had made the mental illness aspect just a little more obvious (if that was their intent), because otherwise it is a REALLY stupid movie. Strange that the movie is full of her and her shrink, and her freaking out and looking crazy, but a paranoid-schizophrenic episode STILL doesn't seem like the obvious conclusion. All in all, kind of a sloppy job. I wanted to point out another scene in support of your theory. It's been talked about in another thread, but not in this context. It's the car crash scene when the NSA agents ram right into her, and she gets out and runs away without a scratch. She likely would have been pretty banged up, or at least had some cuts or a limp or something. The fact that she was uninjured leads me to believe that it never really happened. 2 cents.

[–] kirsha 19 years ago

There is a big flaw for the delusion theory and it is that parts of the suppsoed delusion were played when the person with such delusion wasnt around. Unlike in Beautiful Mind, where always his delusions only interacted with him, happened FOR him, and not with anyone else, people and events that would otherwise would be figments of her imagination happened without her intervention: her husband at the cops, the cops, the nsa agent badge, the broken house, etc, etc.

So sorry, it was a nice theory, but it doesnt work.

[–] hugh_jass22 19 years ago

Hey kirsha,

you stated:

"There is a big flaw for the delusion theory and it is that parts of the suppsoed delusion were played when the person with such delusion wasnt around. Unlike in Beautiful Mind, where always his delusions only interacted with him, happened FOR him, and not with anyone else, people and events that would otherwise would be figments of her imagination happened without her intervention: her husband at the cops, the cops, the nsa agent badge, the broken house, etc, etc. "

That is an excellent question that hadn't been addressed.

Now, I'd hate to answer a question with another question, but...

Where do we get the idea that paranoid-schizophrenics only tell delusional stories to their shrink that include them in it?

From another movie? Is that your source? The camera didn't show her there, so it must've been true?

Is it hard to believe that those suffering from this disorder will say anything that pops into their head? My neighbour contests that her ex-boyfriend is a member of the Irish royal family. Now a movie about her wouldn't have to place her in Ireland with them to put visuals to it, would it? No, because everyone here on this board is well aware that there currently does not exist a royal family in Ireland. The audiences who have attended The Forgotten apparently could've used something more obvious to help them.

A lot of time and energy has been spent on other threads on this board sorting out all the flaws and plot holes in the widely accepted, x-files type, spoon-fed version. Does my theory not fill in more holes than it leaves open?

After 12 years or so of the x-files/outer limits, is this all we want out of movies now?

Even those who enjoy movies with aliens seem to dislike the film. What I am suggesting is to view the movie again with the perpective that was given to us in the first 5 min.

HJ

[–] kirsha 19 years ago

It may be so, if she were narrating to us what the story was, but she wasnt. We were seeing things out of the scope of her experience, and therefore, not affected by whatever may have been occuring on her mind. Therefore, they were real. Trying to find the 5th leg on a cat is not the best way to look at things. Thats going agaisnt Occam's Razor. In case you dont know what it means: "Ockham's Razor states that one should not make more assumptions than needed. When multiple explanations are available for a phenomenon, the simplest version is preferred. A charred tree on the ground could be caused by a landing alien ship or a lightning strike. According to Ockham's Razor, the lightning strike is the preferred explanation as it requires the fewest assumptions."-Wikipedia.
Therefore arguing that she may have been standing there in scenes where she was clearly not just to argue that she may have imagined such situations is not aceptable.

Watch A Beautiful Mind and youll see what I mean.

[–] Jeetje 19 years ago

I didn't see the movie (yet), but do have some remarks in general and especially when philosophy (Occam's Razor) is introduced into a debate about arts.

First of all, Occam's Razor tells us this is a movie, nothing else, and as such, anything goes.
Secondly, as with all art the 'suspension of disbelief' is of paramount importance.

There are a lot of great works in literature where events are written down that cannot be known by the protagonist. Does that in itself make those books worthless, or contradictory? No. There are even great movies where that use the same technique...

Now, the big question when you're trying to find your keys again is: "Where did I put them this time?" Then how do you react when:
- your 2-year old suddenly comes running into the room holding your keys?
- your cat is playing with your keys?
- your neigbour rings at your door to give you your keys?
- the police rings at your door to deliver your keys?
- your mother calls to tell you you left your keys at her place?
- the postman delivers your keys through the mail?
NB Deliberately put in order of least likelihood....
In each case, you try to construct the best possible chain of events as to how your keys wound up in the hands of said person (animal). Most of the time, people do this almost subconsciously, and only in bizar circumstances (how did you get into your home when your keys are still at your mother's?) they start to ask questions. However, if the bizar has already been accepted as normal, people won't even ask questions... (luckily, US Postal keeps an extra set of keys of every citizen, thanks to our wonderfull government, and telepathy together with clairvoyance makes sure they are delivered the moment I lost my previous set).

So, every scene we see where the protagonist is not present can be a construction of her delusional mind, just to make sure her experiences still fit a rather 'normal' chain of events; this is just a normal defense mechanism of the mind at work, especially if the alternative is challenging your own sanity. According to Occam, that is a much simpler explanation than the one where aliens are doing all the pushing and pulling. Note: in this day and age, aliens are more common than angels or fairies :)

Now, whether that is an elegant way to make a movie when the common reference for people on delusions is the movie 'A Beautifull Mind' and 'Sixth Sense', that's a completely different question ;)

[–] super16g 19 years ago

Wow. I just read this whole thread in almost one sitting. Where to begin.

First and foremoest, this movie is about aliens. Aliens who have a big machine with spectacular capabilities and their own powerful abailities, but they also have the men in black, or NSA on their team to clean up the minor details.

We begin our story with a woman who has been in therapy for quite some time to cope with the loss of her son. She is under the care of a doctor, which is a plot point seemingly missed IS WORKING WITH THE ALIENS. So any part of his "help" is an attempt to steer her towards the conclusion of this current experiment which is making Telly forget about her kid so these aliens can either move on to whatever is next. WHO CARES ABOUT COFFEE, for all we know she did have some, but the doc wants Telly to think she is crazy and nothing more. The part early on where she loses track of where she parks -did you notice who told her where her car was? None other then FRIENDLY MAN alien guy himself, who just happens to be sitting in his G-man Crown Victoria Interceptor with the window rolled down ready to point out to her where her whip is when she is looking most perplexed! The aliens take care of the big stuff like plucking people into the sky (which doesn't mean instant death BTW) and erasing memories, but it is the MIB err NSA that takes care of wall papering aprtments, destroying microfilm. Who will remember the plane crash in New Jersey where the small jet skidded off the runway a month from now, or a year from now, or five years from now if certain records disappeared? Except for a few key people, not many. So not all of NYC has to be neurolized when they make a change.

The husband, a thin character I will admit, needed to go away because it was all about Telly now and a little bit of alien desperation. Yes even they can get desperate because we see him get mad when he screams at her, and he begs for more time at the end. So he starts to get sloppy. He lets a car hit him, he lets people shoot at thim, he has to erase hubby's memory because he really wants Telly to think she's crazy and let go of Sam -why not, everyone else has. Ash gets put back without his memory, so it is possible that the first agent and Alfre's character weren't killed either, just adjusted and returned. Even whent he alien was recalled, perhaps it was just humilation for him to be snatched up as opposed to flying back up on a shuttle, who knows, who cares?

In summary, yes it was a bit sloppy, yes it has plot holes, but it is X-Files meets MIB and nothing more. A decent popcorn thriller.

[–] morganseer 8 years ago

Wait, wait. Occam's Razor was meant to be applied to scientific theories, not to inventions of the human mind, which can be as convoluted as we like. Context, folks.

[–] carpet_seller 17 years ago

I'll repeat what I say elsewhere in the thread, both versions work, there is no single convention on how to portray a scizophrenic episode on celluloid, just because Beautiful mind did it one way doesn't mean this film can't do it another way.

When you apply occams razor to the overall storyline...

What is more likely? 'The aliens did it' or 'she was just some crazy biatch' Occams razor comes up with the most obvious anwer, she was just crazy, because we know crazy people exist, whereas aliens visiting our planet have not yet been shown to exist.

You can choose to believe either scenario, and whether or not the director admits to it or denies it or not is irrelevant it still can be viewed from both angles.

[–] joshdestardi 15 years ago

Y'all need to understand Occam's Razor a little more.

"carpet seller" is definitely applying it incorrectly here.

The view he/she is applying is from within the movie, and asks which one is more realistic. Duh, it's a movie...anything is possible, right.

Pull back a little, look at the writer/director's explanations, and THAT'S where Occam's Razor should be applied.

This movie is about aliens, and their ability to do amazing things.
(Paraphrasing, but "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic").

You can look at a painting, a sculpture, and obviously a movie all you want...you can apply your own definition, feelings, and attach memories of emotions to whatever stimulus they provide, but unless you were the creator, it doesn't matter how you interpret something. Sorry.

[–] subase 13 years ago

Aliens are stupid then. It's clear that a mother has no magical superior connection to a child.

We know this. The aliens don't know this. Occam's Razor, the film is really about a crazy chick, not stupid aliens.

[–] MCHobbit2000 19 years ago

HJ -

I, like many other posters, felt that your interpretation of the movie was much better that what I walked away with - it made it much more intellegent and interesting. I also agree with a previous poster who said that movies can have multiple interpretations, and thats what makes them great - I agree wholeheartedly.

This isn't to say that I completely buy your take on the film. I just watched the film, and here's a few wrenches for your cogs outside of just issues of character and plot.

1) Issues of point of view: there are several problems here, that either may problematize your theory, or show that the director was extremely clumsy in its execution. The point about "fictional" characters interacting with each other without the main pov character (Moore) is valid. Now, you say that delusional individuals don't include themselves in every story, which is valid. However, are we to suspect that the ENTIRE film is her pov? I'm not sure we can buy that. The camera work that quickly pans around above the city is odd at first, but really later seems to be the "aliens" zooming in on Moore and her companion. I'm not seeing the directors really trying to sell this as her perspective. Also, every canidate for a "fictional" character doesn't get sucked out - gas station attendant, accountant at the airline offices, etc - so why only some of them?

2. The alternate ending: On the alternate ending of the dvd, the main "alien" is present at Moore's reunion with Sam. If we are to buy him as a figment of her delusional mind, then can we even trust that reunion as what is "really" happening? She doesn't seem to be completely back to reality then, in which case we have to question the validity of everything, which really then means that we have watched what could amount to nothing. Maybe this feeds your viewpoint, but it makes the film fairly inconsequential.

Back to issues of point of view, if we compare it to something like the Sixth Sense, yes we see Cole and his mother interact without Willis' character present, but rarely when the facts of his own delusion are at stake. The frequent interaction between other characters outside the pov of Moore's character really problematize the "whole thing is imagined" point of view. Or, as I said, demonstrates a very sloppy job in terms of direction from the filmmaker.

Not to say the film was horrible - I found it bland, at best, with decent acting, but a less the stellar delivery of either theory here. I'm sure that there can be readings that attempt to deal with some of these issues, and I don't want to completely discredit them. However, I do think you may be giving the filmmaker more credit than is due. If I saw a more deft hand guiding the film, I might be so inclined.

MCHobbit

[–] MCHobbit2000 19 years ago

Just wanted to add a note about skill/deftness mentioned in my earlier post.

Not that filmmakers can't have a breakthrough, but neither writer nor director have very impressive resumes that would suggest that this is a "fooled you all" kind of attempt.

The other thing is that, clearly from most posts and reviews of the movie, it didn't work if this is what is intended.

MC

P.S. Although I don't think I'll watch the entire commentary to establish some further evidence, I did watch the first 45 seconds or so, where the director called the overhead views of the city in the opening of the movie the "Alien Point of View" shots. Again, I love the discussion, because your reading was much richer than the film itself.

[–] hugh_jass22 19 years ago

Thanks to all who have responded to this thread.

I have just finished watching the dvd now, so it was my second viewing.

Frankly, to those who have respectfully disagreed that there was anything deeper to the film, I clearly see your view now.

This time I sat back and just enjoyed it as a sci-fi thriller, and it was good, but not fantastic as many have said.

Until the whole climactic buildup at the end.

My interpretation is that she is sent in alone, her shrink says that if she were to confront this, it would be by herself.

So in a vast empty warehouse, aptly called "Quest"airlines, she ends up confronting her psychosis, to which she puts a face on it, and even chases her son around, or is she running through her own mind?

All day, everyone, apparently, is denying that she has a son, but NO, to use her own words, "I HAVE a son, his name is Sam, you son of a b*tch!!"

What a great movie, I thought, she beat it for good, or maybe not, but at least she finds her son again, straightens his coat, he recognizes her, and everyone else she meets afterwards are not treating her like she's a psycho, so today will end a good day afterall.

Now the alternate ending. Not all dvds include one, but this one did. My interpretation is that the alternate ending with the alien casually leaving the playground, represents her inability to fully beat the psychosis. He (it), may or will be back another time, BUT...there seems to be a sense of confidence in her that next time it won't be so draining on her.

Is this what the writer and director intended? It may appear that it wasn't. SHAME, bloody shame.

Unless we hear that Julianne Moore spent weeks with schizos researching her role, then we won't know for sure.

I have also listened to most of the director commentary on the dvd extras. It does appear they aren't too deep.

So if I am to just leave it as another "running around with aliens" movie, then I absolutely agree with many who have said, they have failed in this attempt. A sloppy sci-fi movie with a dumb ending that doesn't make sense (seriously, I'm not being sarcastic here). If that's all this movie was to the director and writer, then, in that case I will stop defending them, and therefore they deserve all the criticism they get.

Maybe I really am like many on this board. I was hoping for more, but got much less, and the utter disbelief left me thinking 'this can't be', these are professional film-makers who make good coin to take audiences to places they had never thought of. SHAME on you hollywood.

sincerely,
HJ

P.S.

to kirsha:

That Ockham's Razor explanation. I had never heard of it and I wholeheartedly agree with it.
"Ockham's Razor states that one should not make more assumptions than needed. When multiple explanations are available for a phenomenon, the simplest version is preferred. A charred tree on the ground could be caused by a landing alien ship or a lightning strike. According to Ockham's Razor, the lightning strike is the preferred explanation as it requires the fewest assumptions."-Wikipedia.

Here's the irony. The whole question the movie poses, is, "Is she crazy, or not?".

I was thinking all along that I was using the simplest explanation. She's crazy.

[–] kirsha 19 years ago

Here's the irony. The whole question the movie poses, is, "Is she crazy, or not?".

I was thinking all along that I was using the simplest explanation. She's crazy.

I would have beleived such notion, if it was presented close to the end of the movie, but it wasnt. I was thrown at you right at the beggining. You are made to think that...is she crazy or not? But then bam!, shes confronted about it. And when the rest is presented, its made obvious something else is going on, beyond her influence or perceptions. Things happened that couldnt be explained by her supposed psychosis because they were presented out of her "influence", that being her view of what was going on. Therefore, the alien plot is what is really going on.

[–] 19 years ago

[deleted]

[–] a_moral_imperative 19 years ago

What about the "trailer gave everything away" syndrome..you see a trailer that looks like a movie about aliens or something supernatural, then naturally expect the film to actually contain more than it does. This is because we're still thinking of trailers of the past, you know the ones from way back when that showed you just enough to want to see it? The problem is, a movie trailer today about an action thriller IS the entire movie packed into 20 seconds...ruining a lot of suspense and expectation.

"Would you classify that as a launch problem or a design problem?"

[–] mpeachhead 19 years ago

Well HJ, it is possible that she could tell her psychiatrist about delusions that didn't involve her, but the makers of the movie have only one reality and that is what we are watching. It would be cheating for them to place us in a scene that is for us the reality of the movie and then later on find out that they were lying to us. There is nothing wrong with twists, but cheating is a more grievous sin than making a stupid alien movie. I agree with Kirsha. The fact that we see these events operating independently of JM's character suggests that they are not delusions. They are the reality of the film for us and there is no changing them. They happened within the context of the film, not the context of her mind. Any statement contrary to that indicates dishonesty on the part of the filmmaker. I agree that your version would have been a better film, but unfortunately you are a more creative and intelligent person than the idiots who shoveled this limp storyline into a turd of a movie. It's about aliens dude. Get over it.

[–] Eminem21029 19 years ago

Hugh_Jass, I'm sorry, but your "theory", is simply that.

The film, plain and simple, is just a mindless, cliche, summer popcorn "horror" flick intended to draw some box office numbers.

The film was not intelligent.

As to all of your examples of dellusions, specifically the coffee incident that you keep bringing up. That's not to show that she's dellusional. That's simply to further convince the viewer that she is dellusional, so that when the "plot-twist" (its in quotations because, well, it wasn't really much of a shocker) occurs, the viewers geniunely are surprised.

Also, the husband one is obvious. The same thing happened to him - they erased his memory (how? I don't know, its one of the many plotholes of this film).

Anyways, interesting thoughts, but you're digging too deeply into this. Its a mindless, x-files esque film.

[–] 19 years ago

[deleted]

[–] hugh_jass22 19 years ago

hi zooey0414,

This is kind've like a debate whether wrestling is real or not that I had several years ago. You'd have folks that didn't want to think they were duped, so they'd dig in their heels. Thankfully, today's wrestling characters have become blatant clowns and that debate is over.

The whole real/not real people sucked away question was answered in a post after the first one that you read explaining that real people placed in unreal scenarios that never happened would also have the rugs pulled out from underneath them when the schizo patient comes to.

Now, I just watched the whole shattered glass scene in slow motion to see which of the stunt doubles looked more like Ash, and yes it appears , that the stunt double portraying Ash is the the one that got sucked away when they both went through the glass. And we are to assume that the alien guy got up and walked away from it all.

This is all great stuff, but my whole theory doesn't hang on it.

I'll spell out some ASSUMING of my own then.

I am assuming that she went in to Ash's appartment (the door was left open, when, by who, whatever) and in her mind there was a struggle. In her fit, whatever took place (the director isn't going to show it to give it away), she threw a chair or whatever and now glass is on the sidewalk. A sidewalk that has several 10s of people walking around like nothing's just happened. Maybe that's just New York! Around here, if two guys just fell 20 stories, one of them got sucked up to the sky and the other just walked away from it all....you bet there'd be some talk going on.

Let's just assume that the aliens had to erase the memories of a hundred people who just saw 2 guys falling out of a high-rise! Stand back everyone, you don't want to be in Telly's wake, or you'll get your memory erased too!

So what we have is Telly and her doctor looking at some broken glass on the sidewalk and he says they should go to the police, but no, he gives in and takes her to quest airlines.

Takes her to the quest warehouse? He might've, or he 'took' her there through hypnosis. Either way, I believe it was for her to work out, or work through that day's psychotic episode.

respectfully,

HJ

P.S.

I'm really going to have to watch A Beautiful Mind. I actually haven't seen it yet. Several people have referenced it now.

So, we're going to back up a movie with what we saw in another movie?

Does that mean I can back something up that happened in Starship Troopers with something that happened in Star Wars?

[–] hugh_jass22 19 years ago

hey eminem21029,

You see, the movie has been compared to Sixth Sense many times. Anyone know why?

I propose that's because in the end, it's really her, as it was for Bruce Willis' character...it was really him that was dead all along.

There's the plot-twist that folk's refuse to see, because they feel duped. Sixth Sense I believe had that whole sequence at the end to spoon-feed us so that we would all understand and have the whole "wow" moment together. This movie didn't do that, and this movie should'nt have had to do that.

Someone needs to explain to me the purpose of the scene where her 'husband' doesn't know her. You remember, she says " I know your wife.", to which he shows his ring finger, sans the ring, and says he's never been married.

So somehow from that scene, we are all to ASSUME that aliens have erased his memory, except what he needs to know to still function on wall street of course, and took away his ring to boot.

And we can't forget that hey also stopped by the library to erase microfilms. We assume all this?

So that's it? You beat us at the memory game. Armed with only a memory in the womb, and we'll give you your kid back?

Oh yeah, just so your kid has no recollection of us aliens either, we will erase your kid's memory too! Let's assume that, ok? And as a bonus, your friend Ash will also get his kid back, just for hanging with you all day.

The real casualty in all of this is the husband. He now continues to go to work everyday, must've found a new appartment, no recollection of his wife and family! LOL, maybe the sequel will center around Telly really putting the screws to her husband! LOL

And that poor female cop. I hope she didn't have a husband and kids. She'll be missed back at the station. Maybe there's a sequel where they go looking for her. They'll find her on the street somewhere with her memory lost of course. We can assume that.

Why assume anything? Go with what we know.

HJ

[–] zukowskim 19 years ago

I just got done wacthin this movie for the first time 45 min and have spent the past 30 minutes reading every post and have come to conclude that:

It would be ridiculous to assume the Alien's have all powerful ability to erase not only the Husbands memory of his child... but what about all the people he works with on Wall St?? The Aliens erased all their memories too of the times the husband talked about his child? What about EVERYONE else in the world they met while they had a child? The Aliens had to erase this part of their memory too?

If this movie is about All powerful Aliens who can "SUCK" people into the sky then Julianne Moore would never have signed on as the leading role.

What category are they going to place this movie when it's not on the "new-release" shelf at the rental store.

Max

[–] SickBoy76 19 years ago

WATCH THE COMMENTARY. The director AND writer state emphatically several times that this movie is about aliens. In fact they even go so far as to state that it is NOT about mental illness. Sorry. Maybe if you cue it up to "Dark Side of the Moon" you can find another "theory". Sometimes an alien movie is just an alien movie folks...
"I want everyone to be as miserable as me; that is what makes me happy." - Howard Stern