I mean first he said let him go and then when Seibei siad he had a wooden sowrd the dude then faught him.
Was it a trick to see what weapon Siebei had or was that swordman insulted.
also why did they want that swordman killed ?
I've just switched this movie, and I'm not sure. They were talking about this in one of the earlier threads. At first, when the guy (I forget his name) told Seibei Iguchi to sit down, and talked to him, I thought he might be playing a trick. I thought he might be trying to find out something about him, or might even just jump up and try to kill him and catch him offguard.
Then when Iguchi said he had a wooden sword, you could see the 'evil look' on the person's face. I thought perhaps he just decided that as Iguchi didn't have a long sword, he could kill him easier ... not really thinking that having a short sword was actually an advantage inside the house.
However, I'm not sure. Perhaps it really was a case of him getting annoyed that Iguchi was trying to kill him, as he said, "with a trick", and perhaps his Samurai pride was genuinely hurt, and he just flew into a rage.
They did explain why they wanted him killed. It was complicated, and I forget the details, but esssentially he had been told to commit suicide, and he refused.
To me it looked like Yogo Zen'emon felt insulted that Seibei brought a wooden sword to fight, "Your going to kill me with a wooded sword?"
When Seibei said no he's going to fight with a short sword, Yogo Zen'emon still felt insulted. Also Yogo Zen'emon had been driking, it could have been the alcohol talking as well.
At wiki it says
"Seibei commiserates and explains how he sold his katana to pay for his wife's funeral. He reveals that his long sword scabbard contains a fake bamboo sword. This angers Zen'emon who believes Seibei is mocking him. Seibei explains he has been trained with the short sword, which he still carries, but Zen'emon is not placated."
I disagree. Yogo is a man without honour. He has taken part in a rebellion. He has refused to kill himself. He has refused to submit to the will of the Lord. He seeks to run. When he realises the man sent to kill him is not properly armed, he seizes the advantage. The Col Kurtz moment where his head turns on hearing about the lack of a katana is monumental. No ambiguity here for me.
shareHis refusal to kill himself is a complete matter of honor. If he truly sought to run he could have done so immediately after killing the first samurai who was sent to kill him. He felt Iguchi was mocking his skills as a swordsman and he was looking to show him up. A longsword does not give one an advantage over a short-sword in a home like the one they fought in. You're actually at a disadvantage, as evidenced by how Iguchi landed the final blow on Yogo. That's why samurai carried short-swords to begin with, for use indoors.
shareYogo by this time is insane, there is little to indicate that his decisions are rational or informed by cultural obedience or insights.
The reason he did not initially flee is simple: he has returned to his daughter. In his delusion he thinks he can now take his daughter with him, hence the consuming of ashes. Why did he not do this earlier? He was not yet so insane.
The moment Yogo decides to attack Seibei is an intersection of madness, opportunity and the realisation that he can symbolically carry his daughter with him, just as Seibei has carried a symbolic katana.
There's little to indicate that Yogo is "insane," drunk and suicidal yes, but there's a fine line between that and insanity. I seriously doubt he'd meet the criteria by a psychiatrist's standards. If anything, the clear and calm reiterating of his past as well as being able to relate to Iguchi and his life, recognizing the hardships he must have faced as well as his insights on duty, honor, and even his own recognition of his faults and his devotion to his master all actually indicate that he wasn't so insane or irrational.
If anything, he consumed his daughter's ashes because he knew he would lose to Iguchi, not only due to the condition he's in but also Iguchi's reputation after humiliating Koda and his background in training under a famous samurai. Not to mention the fact that Iguchi told Yogo to leave after he'd attacked him and Iguchi chucked him outside. Yogo then stated he would leave after he killed him. That was no longer a matter of taking advantage of one's situation. There was no advantage in trying to kill Iguchi after he told him he'd let him go. It seems like you're overanalyzing by attemping to interpret the intentions of the director instead of trying to understand the motivations of the character himself, especially in the context of a samurai culture. Yogo's own comments during the fight that Iguchi shouldn't have underestimated him clearly indicates he was motivated by pride.
I'm over analysing it? I'm not the one attempting to define 'insanity' in 21st Century clinical terms when discussing a feudal samurai. Yogo is not in his right mind, and a semantic argument about that is pointless.
There is an ebb and flow to Yogo's behaviour in that key scene, that is not me attempting to 'interpret the intentions of the director'; it is as the scene is depicted. The notion that Yogo's behaviour is purposive and consistent is simply wrong. Further, the idea that this behaviour is explicable in terms of honour or Budo could not be further from the truth. The very idea of self above service is contrary to this notion, as is the disobedience that brings Yogo to this point and his attempts to bargain an escape.
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...What? You described him as insane, not me. I'm not sure how you define the word insane if not in 21st century terms. Any description you assign to Yogo is going to be in 21st century terms. Insanity is not a 20th or 21st century phenomenon and it's not a word you use casually to describe someone. That retort alone leads me to believe you've not just misunderstood Yogo as a character, but that you're also misusing the word "insane" when describing him.
And the scene does not "depict" a correlation between Iguchi carrying his symbolic katana and Yogo symbolically carrying his daughter. That's a far-fetched interpretation that you're making by overanalyzing the scene. You're only further exemplifying your misunderstanding of the scene by talking about the "ebb and flow" of Yogo instead of simply understanding him by looking from the character's perspective. Also, in claiming Yogo is being "disobedient" or is practicing "self above service" you're ignoring (or you're ignorant of) the fact that his entire reasoning for refusing to kill himself is because he followed his master's orders, as a loyal samurai is supposed to, only to be told to he must now end his own life as punishment for doing so. He's effectively being shunned from his own clan and ordered to kill himself for performing his duties as a samurai. Do you honestly think that his "disobedience" isn't a matter of honor or pride, that he's isolated himself in his home and refuses to leave (despite having the chance to escape before Iguchi ever arrived) simply because he doesn't want to die? That would completely contradict not only his reasoning for defying his clan's orders, but it also contradicts the actions he takes throughout his ordeal, such as fighting Iguchi. Sorry, but you've completely missed the mark.
No. I have not 'missed the mark' at all. I have a different opinion on the scene to yourself.
I have already explained why I understand this scene in a particular way and I shan't be repeating myself just because you seem to have a problem with differing opinions.
No. I have not 'missed the mark' at all. I have a different opinion on the scene to yourself.
I have already explained why I understand this scene in a particular way and I shan't be repeating myself just because you seem to have a problem with differing opinions.
Did you even watch the movie? This was clearly explained. It was a matter of pride and honor and great insult on Yogo's part, but more practical reasons for Seibei. In an earlier scene, Yogo was hired by Tomoe's ex-husband Koda because he was beaten with a stick. Seibei used the stick in order to save both their lives. If he had killed Koda in their duel, then he would have been wanted for dueling by his clan, probably punishable by death. When challenged, Seibei didn't want to duel with Yogo for the same reason. It was an unwinnable situation, but he found a way to win.
In the scene before the battle, Seibei explains the reason for the wooden sword in that he sold his steel sword to pay for the funeral. Again, he's being practical and it further explains his lack of ambition.
Jason. All of this is correct in a way. But it doesn't answer the question that was asked. The question is: 'Was it a trick to see what weapon Siebei had or was that swordman insulted?' (sic)
Nothing in the scene suggests Yogo was working purposefully at measuring his opponent. That part is clear enough.
There is a point of transition in the scene where Yogo decides, if that is even the right word, to make a stand rather than continue to bargain for an escape. It has been suggested by some posters that this transition is predicated on a sense of insult to his honour. While this is superficially correct because Yogo indeed uses it as a pretext for his change of heart, it cannot be understood as the real explanation for his changed behaviour for the following reasons:
1. As a trained samurai Yogo would know perfectly well the short sword was an acceptable weapon, both in terms of effectiveness and honour. And for the same reasons Seibei was chosen to go after Yogo. The idea that its use is dishonourable has no basis in fact.
2. Yogo's conduct is not marked by honour at any stage of the scene. Further, he tells Seibei of his own humiliation. This is important. Tho the two men shared the same fall as many low ranked samurai of the period, Seibei's conduct is essentially honourable. (This IS the story btw, how a man maintained his dignity thru the travails of the period.) Yogo's conduct is marked by a near complete loss of virtue. This dramatic contrast is most certainly not accidental. Clearly we are meant, as an audience, to ask what path such a man might take. And THAT moment, where Yogo chooses, fatally for himself, violence, symbolises the death of the mercenary samurai as a class in the years to come.
3. My point that Yogo seizes a moment of opportunity is NOT predicated only on the idea that Yogo believes his katana is a better weapon in the situation. It is Yogo's (false) realisation that Seibei is just as pitiful as he is. It is not that Seibei is suddenly seen as dishonourable to Yogo, but that Seibei's attachment to maintaining the charade of the old ways is, to Yogo, a weakness. He no longer believes such a man can stop him. If he is insulted, it is not by the weapon or lack of one: but by the man. Even so, this is merely a trigger to a more far reaching thought.
4. Consistent with the idea of Yogo's dishonour, upon fleeing to his home, he wallows in madness, drunkenness, self pity and depravity.
5. Significantly, Seibei himself does not accept this 'dishonour' pretext. Recognising it as a renewed bid for freedom he declares that he would have let him go anyway. If Seibei himself sees it this way, I am baffled that some would expect the audience to take Yogo at his word, particularly given that Yogo is both mad and doomed.
I believe the interpretation that Yogo is insulted by his opponent using a short sword is simplistic, in significant discord with the underlying story, and ignores the fairly clear symbolism of the scene. It is also historical nonsense.
1. As a trained samurai Yogo would know perfectly well the short sword was an acceptable weapon, both in terms of effectiveness and honour. And for the same reasons Seibei was chosen to go after Yogo. The idea that its use is dishonourable has no basis in fact.
2. Yogo's conduct is not marked by honour at any stage of the scene. Further, he tells Seibei of his own humiliation. This is important. Tho the two men shared the same fall as many low ranked samurai of the period, Seibei's conduct is essentially honourable. (This IS the story btw, how a man maintained his dignity thru the travails of the period.) Yogo's conduct is marked by a near complete loss of virtue. This dramatic contrast is most certainly not accidental. Clearly we are meant, as an audience, to ask what path such a man might take. And THAT moment, where Yogo chooses, fatally for himself, violence, symbolises the death of the mercenary samurai as a class in the years to come.
3. My point that Yogo seizes a moment of opportunity is NOT predicated only on the idea that Yogo believes his katana is a better weapon in the situation. It is Yogo's (false) realisation that Seibei is just as pitiful as he is. It is not that Seibei is suddenly seen as dishonourable to Yogo, but that Seibei's attachment to maintaining the charade of the old ways is, to Yogo, a weakness. He no longer believes such a man can stop him. If he is insulted, it is not by the weapon or lack of one: but by the man. Even so, this is merely a trigger to a more far reaching thought.
4. Consistent with the idea of Yogo's dishonour, upon fleeing to his home, he wallows in madness, drunkenness, self pity and depravity.
5. Significantly, Seibei himself does not accept this 'dishonour' pretext. Recognising it as a renewed bid for freedom he declares that he would have let him go anyway. If Seibei himself sees it this way, I am baffled that some would expect the audience to take Yogo at his word, particularly given that Yogo is both mad and doomed.
I believe the interpretation that Yogo is insulted by his opponent using a short sword is simplistic, in significant discord with the underlying story, and ignores the fairly clear symbolism of the scene. It is also historical nonsense.
boostbeetle. My comments were in reply to Jason. In case it wasn't clear, our conversation is concluded on the basis of your poor manners. I hadn't thought to put you into ignore but will correct that immediately.
shareHey, this thread just improved a whole lot. *chuckle*
shareboostbeetle. My comments were in reply to Jason. In case it wasn't clear, our conversation is concluded on the basis of your poor manners. I hadn't thought to put you into ignore but will correct that immediately.
Not to jump in and join in on the argument here, but I think it was pretty obvious that Yogo was offended that Seibei brought a wooden katana to kill him. We see this with Koda, Tomoe's ex-husband, when he was offended Seibei used the wooden katana to duel him. Samurai in Feudal Japan, having a caste/elite system, were very proud and honorable warriors. Having said that, Yogo (like Koda) was under the wrongful impression that Seibei wasn't taking him seriously.
That's why he ended up dueling Seibei. The OP's other question was why the clan wanted Yogo dead? Well as we learn as the film progresses, the young clan lord dies and there is an apparant power struggle within the clan over who will become the new lord. Apparently there was a revolt and a senior-ranking samurai retainer ordered that all samurai who took part in the revolt commit suicide. Yogo's lord was one of the samurai who committed suicide, however Yogo refused to do so himself. The senior-ranking samurai, having heard of Seibei's swordsmanship skills when he knocked out Koda, appointed him to kill Yogo.
As a side note, I thought it was interesting that all the samurai waited outside while Seibei went in to duel him one on one. Shows how the samurai honored battle/duels as Seibei was the only one who was appointed to kill Yogo.
Yup, yogo felt insulted and that's why he went to get his sword
shareAfter reading some of these opinions, I think the real reason one could argue Yogo felt insulted is that he (Yogo) felt that at least they could have sent someone more important than a 50-kuko samurai to deal with him.
The fact that Seibei had a bamboo replacement katana really drove home to Yogo how low on the food chain Seibei really was and that seemed to set him off.