MovieChat Forums > Tasogare Seibei (2002) Discussion > Tomoe wasn't really engaged!?

Tomoe wasn't really engaged!?


Obligatory praise: This is one of the best movies I've ever seen.

Now, a theory. I don't think Tomoe was ever engaged to that guy in Aizu. Iguchi was just about to go out to fight Yogo, by Iguchi's own estimation, a much better swordsman. Now he professes his love for Tomoe. His thoughts are clearly divided. Tomoe is a smart cookie and she knows that Iguchi must not be distracted by thoughts of the future if he has a chance to win. In fact, she goes so far as to say that she won't even be waiting for him when he comes back. Now he can go into battle with a clear head. His boss has already agreed to take care of his family, so even if he dies, his affairs are settled. I think that Tomoe made up the whole engagement story just to protect Iguchi.

I know, there's no explicit proof of this in the film. But I never liked the idea that Tomoe accepted a marriage proposal, then just changed her mind because she'd rather be with Iguchi. She is a very progressive woman, so it's certainly possible that that was what Yoji intended. But it seems too easy for such a complex and subtle film.

Of course, I find my version to be much more satisfying, so that's what I imagine when I watch the film. That's one of the great things about films like this. They allow spaces for the viewer to fill in with his own imagination.

Cheers,
-Brian*

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I like your theory - watching the film for the first time last night I couldn't believe that it would have been so easy for Tomoe to back out of a marriage proposal which she had accepted. Firstly, because her own integrity wouldn't have allowed it; secondly, because of the shame it would have brought on her family, particularly her beloved brother; and thirdly, because it would have been seen as an insult by her rejected fiance, which in the context of the clan system and its code of honor might well have led at worst to violence, at best to demands for financial reparation. Your suggestion overcomes all these objections, and is psychologically and emotionally right.
It's a wonderfully satisfying movie; its no surprise to find that its confident, pitch-perfect pacing and its humanity - how nice to have a truly good and modest hero - are the work of a director in his 70s.

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And even though Tomoe said she wouldn't wait for him, wasn't she still there at his house when Seibei returned? That seems like a sign of further proof for your theory.

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ISTR a Japanese Tale (from the Buke Giri Monogatari?) that includes a similar setup. A person who loves a Samurai who is about to head off into a fight to the death treats him coldly and seemingly rejects him. This is so he can go into battle with a clear mind. So, based on this, I think you are right here (and I had formed the same opinion, based on my - admittedly vague - recollection of said tale.)

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I love the way he opens up his heart and tells her what's on his mind and then when she drops her bombshell he does the noble thing and tries to backpedal. Hiroyuki plays this so well, and Rie was just right. I just had to feel for him, his embarrassment and heartbreak, while trying to congratulate her and hide his 'face' again.

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[deleted]

A samurai must be prepared for death. If he were concerned about the well being of his family if he were to die or that the woman he loved was waiting for him, he would be too distracted with this thoughts to be able to fight. In reality sword fights don't last all that long. In that short amount of time, any hesitation can mean the difference between winning and losing. By putting all his affairs in order and accepting his potential death he is able to clear his mind and focus solely on the moment of the fight.

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Tomoe was most probably engaged to a guy in Aizu. There's a dialogue between Tomoe and her sister-in-law in 70th minutes of the movie when they're talking about the wedding being discussed.
She says to Tomoe:
"And you are a returned bride
with a proposal being discussed"
________________
like hell

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The above poster is right. also, back then in Japan, breaking an engagement, or any marriage for that matter, is a big BIG no no. So when she broke it off to be with Seibei, she was really really going against principles. It probably didn't do much for the image of her house, but then again, she didn't care. And from the way she acted when Seibei came back, oh yeah, she hadn't lied, she was sure he was dead. She may have been a crafty woman, but she was scared *beep* for his safety.

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One cannot argue that it was fortunate timing; though Tomoe was in fact engaged, if she had not been, Seibei's fight at the end may have had a different outcome (as others here have pointed out). The film illustrates (to me at least) this point of a samurai requiring a clear head before battle, by subtly showing that the knowledge of Tomoe's engagement probably helped him. After that exchange between the two of them, the film conveys the Seibei's sense of the "closing" of one chapter in his life and the "beginning" of another. To me this sense of being "displaced into finality" was very real as I watched the last act of the film. Seibei directs his entire sense of purpose towards what his clan has ordered him to do, and is able to do so due to events transpiring in a certain fashion. Putting yourself in Seibei's shoes: even if your daughters are taken care of, you'd be at a disadvantage if you went into battle with a persistent sense of having a lot to live for, when facing an opponent of at least equal skill and who has little regard for what happens to himself.

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I like to think you are correct 'misterbu' as Tomoe would know the emotional effect her acceptance would have on Seibei at such a crucial time. In terms of the movie and for one's imagination this is the best conclusion for us as the viewer.
However, there had been some time between Seibei originally turning down the offer of marriage in the first place so Tomoe did have many proposals. Although again It is true that Tomoe turned them down because of her love for Seibei.


'Discretion is the better part of valor'.
Also known as Laoshi77

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Wow. Thanks for all your intelligent posts, I did not think of this right when I saw the movie. I agree that this is very possible, and highly likely.

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One cannot argue that it was fortunate timing; though Tomoe was in fact engaged, if she had not been, Seibei's fight at the end may have had a different outcome (as others here have pointed out). The film illustrates (to me at least) this point of a samurai requiring a clear head before battle, by subtly showing that the knowledge of Tomoe's engagement probably helped him.


Note that this would have been true whether or not she was telling the truth.

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Tomoe was most probably engaged to a guy in Aizu. There's a dialogue between Tomoe and her sister-in-law in 70th minutes of the movie when they're talking about the wedding being discussed.
She says to Tomoe:
"And you are a returned bride
with a proposal being discussed"
That doesn't mean anything. It had already been established (in Seibei's conversation with Iinuma while they were fishing at the river) that men were lining up to propose to her and that she was turning them down. That another proposal was being discussed doesn't mean she was planning on agreeing to it. The only time we're given any indication that she's agreed to a proposal is when she tells Seibei that she did. Considering she's then waiting for him at his house when he gets back, I have to agree with the general consensus here that she lied and she hadn't accepted from anyone, so that Seibei could go into battle fully concentrated on the task at hand without having to worry about Tomoe or anyone else. Because as far as he knew, Tomoe was going to Aizu to marry a man who would be able to provide a good life for her, and he had no chance to be with her. If he thought he was gonna be able to go back to marry Tomoe, he would have then been scared to die because he'd want more than anything else to be able to go back home to be with the woman he loved, and that would have distracted him in his fight, which could have gotten him killed. Instead, convinced that all things in his life are settled, that his family will be provided for by his clan and Tomoe is marrying someone else, he was able to go into battle without distractions, worries or fear of death, fully concentrated on his task.

"The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor."
- Voltaire

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In the 70th minute, the aunt was talking about a proposal being discussed. When did a proposal imply engagement?

I concur with the initial poster. My intepretation was she was lying in the heat of the moment to protect Sebei and so that if he died in battle, he would die peacefully with all affairs in place. What a romantic film... :)

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I don't see this at all and I don't understand how so many people agree with this theory. But I suppose that's the nice thing about films is that sometimes it can say what you want it to say.

She was definitely engaged and by telling Iguchi she was engaged had a worse effect on his fight because he would be depressed and thinking about what he could have done better and how he should have acted earlier and the mistakes he made. I don't think it would clear his head at all. In fact, if she had said she would be waiting for him and would marry him, he could go in to battle with a clearer head.

I think that he came across a man who was possibly a better swords man but was drunk and made a mistake.

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She was definitely engaged and by telling Iguchi she was engaged had a worse effect on his fight because he would be depressed and thinking about what he could have done better and how he should have acted earlier and the mistakes he made. I don't think it would clear his head at all. In fact, if she had said she would be waiting for him and would marry him, he could go in to battle with a clearer head.


Unlike the normal western philosophy, where it's better to have someone waiting for you to motivate you to survive, the Japanese philosophy is much different. Real sword duels are short. They are often decided in just a few moves. During this time, the samurai must be absolutely focussed at the task at hand. He must not be afraid of death. Instead, he must expect it. This is why he goes to such lengths to make sure all his affairs are in order before setting out. Any slight hesitation caused by him thinking about the repercussions of his death, for instance thinking about Tomoe if she had accepted his proposal, could be the different between winning and losing.

TLDI version: It's not about having something to live for, it's about having everything in order for you death.

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one thought though... after winning the fight, and its story getting around, his position may have risen enough that breaking off the engagement was feasable through some arrangement or politics, or the prospective husband could have called it off when he heard the details, agreeing that they were meant to be together.)

it's hard for me to beleive that she didn't mean it when she told him she was engaged, but of course, that would have been the intent, to convince him. some women certainly are crafty.)

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I agree with you. I think she told him she was engaged, she said she couldn't wait at the house ... but after he went, she just couldn't bring herself to leave. She decided she had to wait for him, and marry him if he came back ... even though this could cause a lot of problems.

As to what happened, you would imagine Iguchi's clan would support him after what he'd just done for them. You would also imagine Tomoe's brother would support them, because he felt guilty that he'd forced his sister to make a bad marriage before, and he seemed to want her to be happy by marrying Iguchi.

The retainer that she was engaged to, of course, would be angry, and he might demand 'satisfaction', i.e. just like Tomoe's previous husband had, he might demand to fight Tomoe's brother or Iguchi. However knowing that Iguchi would stand in for Tomoe, or fight for himself, and hearing what he'd just done, the retainer would realise he'd lose the battle, so might just do nothing.

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I thought she lied to him when I watched it. Her brother is also a Samurai so she would know that he would need a clear head and the only way to do that would be to remove his worry of her future well being. That is why she told him she was engaged.

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He didn't really fancy his chances,but he knew his kids would be looked after, so it would have given Seibei something more to fight for.

Instead of the master swordsman Seibei expected, he saw a weakened, drunk with no fight in him. Had the guy not raged out over the insult (the bamboo sword), he probably wouldn't have fought at all.

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