MovieChat Forums > The Book of Mormon Movie, Volume 1: The Journey (2004) Discussion > Why Ex-Members can leave the church yet ...

Why Ex-Members can leave the church yet can't leave it alone

posted 14 years ago by Ghost_Writer1
15 replies | jump to latest

I don't know... Why don't you tell me? Since you're so satisfied with you new life why is it so irresistable to seek out these posts and make your little comments? Do you want to share your new found freedom with those poor Mormons who are still tied down by their activity in the church? Guess what? You're just as tied down if not more if you can't let it go. Find true freedom. Just let it go. Take the first step by not arguing with this post and just move on for good. By staying obsessed with the church you aren't convincing anyone. Take one lesson from the church and show people by your happy example how liberating it is to do whatever it is that you do. Then maybe you can define yourself by what you believe in instead defining yourself by what you don't believe in.

[–] aeguy15 14 years ago

Well, I think the people who leave the church, leave it for a reason and they feel the need to speak out against it. Compare it to a heroin addict who becomes an activist speaking out against drugs. Nobody says to him: "Why don't you just move on? You're obviously still tied down. You can quit doing drugs, but you can't quit talking about them."

I agree, though, many people that leave the church have an unhealthy obsession with it, but it can be difficult leaving something you've had ingrained in you for your whole life.

[–] geode 14 years ago

Take one lesson from the church and show people by your happy example how liberating it is to do whatever it is that you do.

I guess I missed this lesson in the thousands of Sunday School classes, Priesthood Meetings, and Sacrament Meetings I attended. I don't think the old "Do your own thing" motto of the hippies was ever embraced by The Bretheren.

Oh Lord, you gave them eyes but they cannot see...

[–] Ghost_Writer1 14 years ago

I was referring to those who claim to feel liberated by not being members of the church. Instead of trying to convince everyone how happy and liberated you feel through words, just show it by the example of how great you're life is. To put it in a nutshell; If you have been so liberated and feel so happy, why is it you feel such a great need (for those whom this applys to) to come back and continually critisize the church. By the way, It's brought up all the time in meetings to show by example how happy you're life is by "doing what you do" living the principles of the gospel.

[–] JackDaniels-theJackMormon 14 years ago

I was referring to those who claim to feel liberated by not being members of the church. Instead of trying to convince everyone how happy and liberated you feel through words, just show it by the example of how great you're life is. To put it in a nutshell; If you have been so liberated and feel so happy, why is it you feel such a great need (for those whom this applys to) to come back and continually critisize the church. By the way, It's brought up all the time in meetings to show by example how happy you're life is by "doing what you do" living the principles of the gospel.

Personally I found the whole obedience, obedience, obedience mantra of the GA's to be anything but liberating. Often the message I got was "Do as we say or else." The version of "living the principles of the gospel" Mormon style meant a lot of sacrifice and denial with very little in the way of payout and was sometimes attempted through the use of guilt trips. Getting all your "brownie points" and "merit badges" on the way to the CK mattered more than serving your brother man. Talking a drink of an alcoholic beverage often was thought worse than swindling people in fraudulent schemes. Jesus taught how wrong this was in a parable or two.

"I'll take the fifth"

[–] geode 14 years ago

Apparently this was such a good response that Ghostie didn't have a reply worth posting.

Oh Lord, you gave them eyes but they cannot see...

[–] Ghost_Writer1 14 years ago

Actually I thought that a person who refers to themselves as Jack Daniels the Jack Mormon and the fact that he went off on another tirade about the church didn't really require a response. It seemed like a pretty good illustration of my point. Jack, even with all that you still didn't mention any specific examples of how much better your life has gotten since leaving the church, plus how can you truly move on from all of the hypocracy and guilt trips if you still insist on obsessing?

[–] nephihaha 14 years ago

I actually think it's the other way round. Some members can't leave the ex-members alone, or accept that they're gone.

If people leave, they usually do so for a reason. And that reason is probably something pretty important to them. And contrary to popular opinion, it's not because of personal grievances, it's usually because of flaws in the set up, controversial or bits of history which don't match up with the official whitewashed version.

Some criticism is a good thing sometimes. There's stuff in the church which needs to go, like the white shirt policy. Polygamy and the black priesthood bar have both been ditched, so there's a precedent here. The idea that once you believe the Book of Mormon is true, that you have to stand for every flaw in the church is nonsense.

(In case you're wondering, no I'm not an ex-member)

[–] Ghost_Writer1 14 years ago

I'm not referring to people who merely have their reasons for leaving. I'm referring to those who, after they have found their reasons seem to devote the rest of their lives to justifying their choice. I wann't people to ask themselves if they are really so happy with the decision that they've made, why are they still steeped in bitter obsession years after the fact. If you look deep within yourself you may realize that "controversial bits of history", or docterinal reasons aren't really why you left. The most common reasons for inactivity I have come accross are: Being offended, Unwilling to overcome certain sin(s), or basing ones faith on other imperfect members instead of in Christ. I think people each have their own insecurities and inner termoil, but rather than actually facing them, they take the easier road and just run. While contemplating running or after the fact you can come up with all kinds of outside reasons along the way without pointing to yourself. If you find yourself years down the road still looking for outside reasons, and your not quite able to move on, you may have a problem that you should address.

[–] nephihaha 14 years ago

" If you look deep within yourself you may realize that "controversial bits of history", or docterinal reasons aren't really why you left. The most common reasons for inactivity I have come accross are: Being offended, Unwilling to overcome certain sin(s), or basing ones faith on other imperfect members instead of in Christ."

No, this is what *you*'d like them to be. Actually most people I've known who went inactive didn't go because of being offended by anyone.

Moreover, most ex-members (if they don't rejoin) stay well away. They don't join militant groups or go round attacking the church. That's just a minority.

And what are "imperfect members"? No member is perfect, my friend. Even you.

And you too will be having difficulty with certain sins. You are being guilty of one just now, it's called pride. You aren't perfect, and you are a sinner. Like the rest of us.

Mormon 8:36
"And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts."

You shouldn't roast people because they're having difficulty with their faith, you should support them without being arrogant or condescending.

[–] Ghost_Writer1 14 years ago

I'm assuming that you're taking me out of context on purpose, but what the heck, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now and try to be even more clear (if possible) than I was in the previous post.

---"Actually most people I've known who went inactive didn't go because of being offended by anyone."

I suppose everyone has their own experiences, but the reason I have drawn this conclusion is because I have spoken with a large portion of inactive members in several circumstances including on my mission and many of them weren't shy about giving that as the reason. The most common answers were, because so and so did this, or _________ is a hypocrite, or the rules are too strict. Rarely did inactive members cite doctrinal reasons. But hey, your experiences may be different. I can only tell you what I have observed.

--"Moreover, most ex-members (if they don't rejoin) stay well away. They don't join militant groups or go round attacking the church. That's just a minority."

Did you not actually read my post? I cited several times that I was only referring to the people who had problems with bitter obsession.

---"And what are "imperfect members"? No member is perfect, my friend. Even you."

Again, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one, and assume that you merely skimmed my post, because I said very clearly that people based their faith on imperfect members INSTEAD OF ON JESUS CHRIST. In other words... now lets focus like a laser beam here nephihaha... There are no perfect members, very much so including myself, because if I were perfect I wouldn't be feeling the need to explain myself to someone who is most likely only going to twist my words again on the next post.

---"And you too will be having difficulty with certain sins. You are being guilty of one just now, it's called pride. You aren't perfect, and you are a sinner. Like the rest of us."

That may be, but I never mentioned people having "difficulty" with sins. I was alluding to people who have no desire to let go of their sins and in turn seek to justify themselves by looking for ways to attack the church.

"You shouldn't roast people because they're having difficulty with their faith, you should support them without being arrogant or condescending."

I sincerely hope that my post might wake somebody up if they fit the bill on what I was talking about, but mostly I'm just making an observation and leaving it open to debate.

So if you want to get down to brass tax, the real essence of what I'm saying is that obsession, bitterness and projecting ones problems, are all unhealthy life choices. If what I have said in my post strikes a chord with anyone, then they may have a problem in this area, or they may misunderstand my intentions. I'm not saying that coming back to the LDS church is necessarily the answer either. I'm just saying that if you find yourself putting an unhealthy amount of time and effort into a preoccupation that you have with discrediting the church then you may need some help to move on. Just as you would with an obsession in any area of your life. If you disagree, please tell me in general why you think obsession, bitterness and projecting your problems is a good thing instead of attacking out of context lines of my post.

[–] nephihaha 14 years ago

I think your attitude is completely wrong. So people attack your church - you do not repay hate with hate, that is not the Christian way. Read the Bible - it doesn't tell us to behave that way.

You obviously have a serious problem with pride. You too are imperfect and a sinner. Stop being self-righteous and start loving your neighbour.

"I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one, and assume that you merely skimmed my post,"

I read it right through. You have an obvious plank in your eye which needs sorting out. It's called pride. Stop acting as if you're superior to them. You're not.

"I suppose everyone has their own experiences, but the reason I have drawn this conclusion is because I have spoken with a large portion of inactive members in several circumstances including on my mission and many of them weren't shy about giving that as the reason. The most common answers were, because so and so did this, or _________ is a hypocrite, or the rules are too strict. Rarely did inactive members cite doctrinal reasons. But hey, your experiences may be different. I can only tell you what I have observed."

In your experience. Mormons as people are great, and usually very pleasant, but they don't like it when people ask the wrong questions.

As for hypocrisy, well that's true, there's a lot of it. How many people obey the Word of Wisdom, but eat junk food like brownies and burgers? The best way to deal with that if for people not to be hypocrites.

"The rules are too strict" - That IS a doctrinal issue, not one of personal relationships. Sorry.

You've really got to change your own attitude, if there is a personal attitude which sucks in the Mormon church, you're demonstrating it.

GAs should talk more about their own personal struggles & doubts and how they overcame them. Because they will have done.

The Church needs to be honest about history too. Presenting a white washed version all the time means that when members come across real documents, NOT written by anti-Mormons, then their testimonies and faith are severely dented. In the "Teachings of the Presidents" series, the Brigham Young book omits to mention his numerous wives - yet that's well documented by contemporary members of the church, and his own words, so why hide it?

[–] Ghost_Writer1 14 years ago

You really can't help it can you? You just went off on another tirade. I made it so simple too... "please tell me in general why you think obsession, bitterness and projecting your problems is a good thing." I'm speaking about a very specific group of people, yet you keep hitting every other topic except for the point.
By the way, I never made any personal remarks about you on this post, yet you have resorted to calling me prideful and self-righteous. Please tell me where I've posted anything saying that I'm better than someone else. I have merely made an observation. If I'm guilty of pride and self-righteousness for that then where does that leave you for making your own observations about me?

[–] nephihaha 14 years ago

"You really can't help it can you? You just went off on another tirade. I made it so simple too... "please tell me in general why you think obsession, bitterness and projecting your problems is a good thing." I'm speaking about a very specific group of people, yet you keep hitting every other topic except for the point.
By the way, I never made any personal remarks about you on this post, yet you have resorted to calling me prideful and self-righteous. Please tell me where I've posted anything saying that I'm better than someone else. I have merely made an observation. If I'm guilty of pride and self-righteousness for that then where does that leave you for making your own observations about me?"

You're STEREOTYPING a group of people.

I have been reading "The Miracle of Forgiveness" in the last few days, by President Kimball. I suggest you read the chapter "As we forgive our debtors".

Bless those who hurt you, don't pour vitriol on them. That's what Jesus himself says.

Have you thought about how investigators might see what you've written? It's not a good advert for the church. There are many reasons people leave or become inactive, and it is not for us to judge. (Judge not - there's another Bible verse for you)

Now go and pull the beam out of your own eye, and stop being hostile, and start being loving.

Finally here's something else for you to ponder, Pres Joseph F. Smith quoted by Kimball in Miracle of Forgiveness" (p283)

"I want to say to you that Latter-day Saints who harbor a feeling of unforgiveness in their souls are MORE CENSURABLE THAN THE ONE WHO HAS SINNED AGAINST THEM. Go home and dismiss envy and hatred from your hearts; dismiss the feeling of unforgiveness and cultivate that spirit of Christ which cried out upon the cross 'Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.' This is the spirit that Latter-day Saints ought to possess all the day long."

Are you prepared to forgive these people, and maybe even welcome them back into the church, no matter what they have done? "For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God."

[–] Ghost_Writer1 14 years ago

I'm sorry Nephihaha, this is going to be my last post, because I'm starting to get too strong of an urge to start beating my own head against the wall. Whether you're purposely or unknowingly missing the point I really don't have any more time to invest in this conversation. I do however appreciate the quote from Miracle of Forgiveness. I don't really see how it applies in the way you're using it, seeing as how I never indicated that I'm unforgiving of people who are trapped by obsessive bitterness, but the quote does fit in with a point I made earlier about people who won't forgive others who have offended them and harbor it to the point that they fall away from their faith.
I really like the part in you're post where you tell me to "judge not", yet you have been judging me from the beginning. I never made a judgement about a general group of people or a specific person, I said very specifically that I was only speaking to those who had the problems that I listed. If you aren't obsessive or bitter or projecting your problems on others then I wasn't speaking to you.

"Now go and pull the beam out of your own eye, and stop being hostile, and start being loving."

I'm starting to think that I'm being punked... Where's Ashton Kutcher? You keep telling me how hostile and self righteous I am, yet you're the one sitting there on your high horse quoting scriptures to me and making personal remarks. You may want to re-read the posts and take a good hard look at your own self. With that said, you can go ahead and have the last word. So if you'll excuse me, I have an after-funeral party to attend.

[–] nephihaha 14 years ago

I'm trying to get you to see what you're doing. I have come across this idea of "ex-members won't leave the church alone" before - it's simply not true in many cases, and those that don't leave the church alone might have some genuine grievance which has not been properly addressed. This is not going to be solved by condemning them, and roasting them, you're just adding fuel to the fire, instead of actually assessing where the real problem might lie and how it could be solved.

I have no idea who Ashton Kurcher is. Never heard of him. I quoted scripture at you, because your posts seemed to have little inspiration from that quarter.

p.s. If you're wondering about my user name, it's a regrettable story, but i can't change it now. I may have to have another account.