Turkey starts being a part of Europe starting tomorrow ? - Gegen die Wand (2004) Discussion

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] ueris 19 years ago

What is to be a European dear friend? Not to be pro-american? You have to quit thinking in this bipolar imagination. especially about this film. Characters and plot are not really pro-american. did you noticed any resemblance between characters and plot of this film and hollywood stars and storyline? If a film or in general a "thing" is not pro-american and at the same time not European should we ignore it?

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] yaseminaksu 19 years ago

First of all, you should find a better way to call people if you want them to "respect" your thoughts, and finding something else than "You fool" would be a good start.

"Turkey isn't European."
If you look at a world map, you'll see that Turkey is a bridge between 3 continents (Europe, Asia, Africa) and cultures. It will be EU's sake for Turkey to join them. I don't actually care about Turkey entering the EU because it is mostly full of people like you who doesn't know anything about world's history. If you look at Turkey's history, it goes back about seven hundred years (The Ottoman Empire). I don't say it was a really "cool" empire, but you can't deny that it was the biggest force in the world at its time. It ruled the world, and it conquered most of Europe, Asia and Africa. You also said that there are 300,000 Turks in France and over a million in Germany. So this shows that Turkey IS European, along with its history.

"I don't ignore other cultures..."
Yes you do. Even if you don't ignore them, you don't know a single thing about them and talk with your ignorance. First learn couple of things about Turkey and Turks before talking badly about them.

"...Turks are pro-americans..."
Turks are not Pro-Americans. Turks are not Pro-Europeans. Turks are not Pro-Anything, except being Pro-Turk. If you learned a little, only a little about the First World War and then the War of Freedom which was started by the greatest Turk of all times, Ataturk, you'd see that Turkey was saved by people who were Pro-Turks. And they never be something else rather than that.

As I stated before; learn about the culture, the nation and the history that you're going to despise. Then start your despise. And never, ever call the person that you want to change his/her mind "You fool".

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[–] MidniteRambler 19 years ago

Don't waste your time trying to argue logically with Ralumer. He calls everybody names.

The Ottoman Empire was never the biggest force in the world and never touched western European history. I have never heard them mentioned in that context. They never conquered Europe or Asia or Africa.

That there are 300,000 Turks in Europe and a million in Germany doesn't mean anything. There are millions of Asians in England, from Pakistan, India and Bangladesh, but that doesn't make England Asian.

I think, for the first time in his life, that Ralumer is right and that Turkey has no chance at all of being accepted into the EU for cultural reasons - it is too eastern and its human rights record is abysmal. And if Islamic terrorism continues, the European attitude towards Turkey will only harden further.

We used to go to asylums to laugh at the lunatics. Nowadays we come on imdb.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] latinamericanism 18 years ago

You seem to be a child caught up in primary school history book where an "other" enemy Must be resisted. It seems to me that you will always be caught up in pissing contests in life.
I am sorry if this is harsh but do
grow up.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] latinamericanism 18 years ago

ignore my previous comment,
I apprantly haven't read your most recent comment.
Now having read it!:

I can ignore you along with other right-wing racists.

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[–] dbestnyc 19 years ago

As an american, i sit here laughing while you silly europeeps argue who likes or dislikes americans more. Its very funny because you all hate each other and feel that you are superior to everyone else.

Then you say that the Americans are like that when in reality it is *YOU* who are like that.

I'd write more but i have a very busy life and don't really don't care who dislikes americans or not.

I don't speak German or Turkish but the movie looks like fun anyway.

By the way, the Brits are OK in my book.

cheers!!

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[–] bittermilk 19 years ago

Well, he does have a point here! We are thinking a little too much about americans and a very little about what we want, or would like to be ...
Turkey is a large country, and has a great history, even if to some of us who saw the ugly part of it, it's hard to accept. They have to deal with many problems, but who hasn't? They have problems with ethnic minorities, they're not the only ones, they have corrupted politics, who hasn't ? The point is to make an effort to resolve them, and maybe it's a way to make them see they really have to.
Now, if you blame them for the invasion in Cyprus, I can only tell you they will have to get out of there, sooner or later, but if you blame them for the bird-flu, there's very little one can comment on that! There are no frontiers in infectious deseases, and no limits in human stupidity )))

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[–] kemirler 18 years ago

All you Euro-trash folks need to do is look at the demograhics of your country to realize what is obvious. Your country men are not reproducing you are all happy in you prosperity so there is no need to change the status quo by taking on more responsibilites or worry about a new generation or growth. What U.S has over the Europeans is even though it is more prosperous they still have the hunger for progress. Same applies for Turkey. So EU needs some of that energy to invigorate itself. Only 6 percent of Turkey's population is 65 and over age wise. 26 percent of it is in the age bracket of 0 to 14.
(http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tu.html is your friend). Turkey also has 33 percent of its land arable which creates a potential for a lot of resources. Also when it comes down to spenditure on cosmetics Turkey spends one tenth of what the average Europen country does. So all these facts add up to one thing. Turkey is a very ripe and good peach to plunder. As expected our leadership will again fail to realize the capitulations that are being imposed upon us. By a sheer miracle I will be very happy to see joining EU will not be a one sided affair where external forces will continue to suck it dry without giving anything back to it.

I am Turkish. My countries problem is an identity crisis. Even though we created a god out of Ataturk instead of working on improving on what he has established there is some virtues to our plight that needs to be mentioned. We always have been martially independent no other civilization dictated our living through use of arms for a long stretch of time (No longer than couple of years). We are martial people. Our ancestors expanded upon their war chests to create an Empire. Becoming a techonological civilization from nomadic roots is not an easy task. I beleive we haven't fared that bad. But one thing is for sure if it wasn't for the corrupiton of the leaders following Ataturk this nation would have been lot better off. The problem is not about looking to the East or to the West. The problem is not being able to find our own identity our own path to victory.

Contributing factors to this reality are numerous. As the paradigm shifted with coming of the 21st century military might alone was not enough for total independence. Neo-Colonialism became the new tool of the neo-aristocracy to plunder the undeveloped countries. We are in a in-between position. Not a third world country or a developed nation. The leadership that took over after the independence war started feeding the soul of our our new credo to the east or the west little by little. We sacrificed many of our country men to the internal strifes created by forces from both directions East and the West. Sectarian religious issues were brought up keep the country busy with artificially created agendas so it can be derailed from its objective of 100 percent independence. IMF came into play our leaders bought into what they were selling. Readily accepted them as our saviors where as China had a controlled market policy who took longer than what IMF and World Bank suggested to open its markets. From their examples we can clearly see which option was the better one.

I laugh my ass off whenever someone from Europe decides to take the moral high ground when it comes to their countries politics. They fail to realize they all had to go through very inhumane stages to get to the point there at now. French, British, Belgians, Dutch, Germans, Austrians they all have skeletons in their closets that have been outed long time ago. French with the what they have done in North Africa to their subjects in their colonies or tussling with U.S pretending to be moral leaders of the world over the Iraq issue where in reality all they were worrying about was their precious deals with Saddam over oil or their real goal of standing up against U.S to prove to the rest of world UK backed by the U.S is not in charge of E.U. British I would definitely recommend the movie "Gandhi" for those who are curious about ethics of British Colonization. Germans I don't even have to say anything about Germans we all know already their shame. Austrians they were right there with Germans when it all happened. Belgians since this is a movie site check out the movie "Hotel Rwanda" to better understand their dealings. Dutch worlds foremost slave traders doesn't need to be re-introduced "Amistad" can be a good way to visualize it all. U.S is not above it all either neither my country. To round it up all you guys have to do is watch movie Lord Of War to better understand the hypocrisy.

Coming back to my country. I can guarantee you that if it wasn't for the meddling of your precious nations we would have been better off. Just like Romans did to the celts after they realized they can't defeat them martially you have managed to take over our infrastructure, our language, our future. So congrats you have won. So why don't you all do a jig for us. Dance and celebrate. No nation is an angel. Don't ever forget that but when compared to all the righteous Euro-trash(as in we are holier than thou euro types the rest does not need to be offended) I keep listening to my nations history is lot more ethical. So before you spew your ignorance I kindly ask you to back up your claims by actual facts. Instead half assed rumours you are being fed by your goverments propoganda machine. Just as I inform my Turkish friends who talk *beep* about U.S culture without knowing anything about it in reverse I do the same to all the other foreigners to talk smack about my culture.

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[–] ec_nyx 18 years ago

Hello. I was hoping to read more about the movie itself, but hey, this is what forums are about....
Anyway, I'm not going to make bold claims about who is superior than who, and who has more dirt under the carpet, simply because I'm not an expert on history, which is biased most of the time anyway.
My feel on the whole Turkey VS EU thing is that it's going to be awhile before Turkey can join the EU, and I think one of the main reasons is because Turkey is a Muslim country. In fact, that's probably the sole reason. Of course, there's other small conflicts as a result of history (I was told Austria has some beef with Turkey from the past??). The fact that Turkey has good relations with the US is probably not going to help either, given the resentment of European countries and the US. Not to mention that Turkey has its own distinct traditions, culture values, as well as history. If anything is going to happen, it's going to be 10, 20 years from now, but it's really hard to say because I really feel religion is going to be a big obstacle for Turkey's progress in joining the EU. And just to be clear, I have nothing against Muslims, Christians, etc. I am not religious. The above is simple an observation. In fact, I feel that religion plays a huge factor as to why the world is so divided, but that's a whole different post. =)

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[–] at7000 11 years ago

As an American, please don't blame us for our corrupt and brutal Governmant. We basically live under a dictatorship and a police state. the media is in the hands of the Govt, and keeps people stupid and ignorant of world events. And acts as a cheerleader for any US Govt terror.

I apologize to the entire world for the stupid actions of our leaders and all the wars, violence, death and killing they have caused. And it continues now with drones, which have killed millions of innocent Muslims.

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[–] President4Life (280) 5 years ago

As an American, I agree with this guy.

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[–] Turkisch 18 years ago

I wonder what makes the rest of balkans "europeans" but not Turkey. Actually we are the same *beep*.
And yes I agree that balkans are totally different then west europe, but that doesnt mean the balkans is not a part of europe. By the way, anti americanism is not only in europe, but in all over the world.

Protection from what? "Zee Germans"?

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[–] tekinocolor 18 years ago

Let me answer. Cyprus invasion was legitimate according to UN which is full of Europeans. We gave womens to vote long before all the european countries. Albania is a country which is rightfully muslim as all the other countries converted Christianity forcefully, too. Bird flu is also in UK, Greece and Swiss that does make them asian then? We did not support Iraq war, we are the only country that sent US army back to their base. But being so ignorant you give a good example of a negative properties of being European I hope Turks will bring alot of positiveness. If Eu does not want a pro_American Turkey it is better they accept Turkey. That way Turey can stand against USA much better. They want a better partner anyway and there is a strong socialist and marxist opposition in Turkey.

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[–] toprak_artu 18 years ago

Turkey is a country that was/is influenced by many cultures geographically and historically. There are European and Middle Eastern influences. By many aspects it is way behind many European countries, that is true, but it's nothing like say Albania or Iran. Actually, a Turk from the Agean part of the country may get along very well with an Italian or Greek, then he'd get along with, say, an Arab. This is of course not to say Arabs are bad, i am just trying to mention cultural similarities. Legally, women have all the rights that men have since 1930's, but the de facto situation is not always like that, especially in the east of the country. Still, it's improving and one can be quite optimistic if we think in terms of decades. Most Turks are very sensitive about Cyprus, and the issue seems to get stuck but one should remember that it was the Turks who accepted The Annan Plan of the United Nations and the Rums who rejected it. On the Armenian issue i agree that my country shoud radically change its behavior and start to face some facts. There is not a homogen European approach to the war in Iraq, some countries approve it and some don't. Living in Berlin will probably give you a very one-sided preview about Turks, because you observe immigrants from the sixties and as usual the immigrants consisted of the poorest, least educated people. So they are very conservative even according to most of the Turks. Also immigrants in general have the tendency to become more conservative, strictly-religous and nationalist in many places. They percept it as a way to protect themselves in a new envoriment.

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[–] fatihkavak-1 18 years ago

Hi guys,
I couldn't stop myself to say ysth about EU versus Turkey,
well I respect every comment here turkey could take place in EU or not
but there is one comment ´that I wanna just take your attention between
Albanians and Serbs and birt rate.. The religion is the most important
criteria that EU commision take care about it seems so, the guy who worried about turkey's join to the EU doesn't need to worry about that since the human being is not advanced that much further...

Turkey is between many things besides it has sth. to contibute sth. european culture at the same time sth.take from

Gegen die wand is just a movie very good movie too, don't bother
this director with fascist ideas he is, just an simple man to say sth.
about humanity which is around him, maybe he has more...

kind regards

Fatih

from UK, Swdeden, Germany

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] MidniteRambler 18 years ago

by - ralumer_les_fours 13 hours ago (Tue Nov 1 2005 00:40:46 )

UPDATED Tue Nov 1 2005 00:42:32

...speak english ...

At last, Rumbabwe the Fourth, you understand. What use is anybody who doesn't speak English?

This country isn't turning into the nanny state so much as the Nazi state.

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[–] latinamericanism 18 years ago

PEOPLE DO NOT TAKE THIS Ralumer_Fuhrer seriously,

You are wasting your time. He is a ghetto racist. Unlike the 'intellectual' racists Ghetto Racists simply KNOW the FACTS because they are grassroots racists. Growing up in ghettos (not necessarily physcial ghettos but also mental ghettos) they Know the Truth, because they have "seen" it, hence can declare some human beings as inferior to others.

Dont play his silly game, just ignore his mode of being.
read a book rather than respond to him.
Having said that I can read my own book in peace...

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[–] ufukca 18 years ago

I am reading the messages for a while and I feel very depressed about the future of our world. Noting will ever change in this world, we are still living with the same rough untamed homo sapiens instincts. All I know is that Europe needs metal and mineral mines, fuel, fruits, vegetables and grains and other nameless natural resources that themselves will never have in their own contries. So they will ever fly over middle east and turkey like hungry vultures. Lecture middle eastern contries with human rights lessons and never think on their dirty colonist histories and todays.

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[–] Yolas 18 years ago

you're nothing but a fascist, just like hitler was.I'm Turk and I'm really happy with it.I'm a muslim but I'm not radical.And you'll be surprised but I live like a westerner does, prolly better than you. (yeah im fckin rich ok)

Turkey is a mix of west and east in culture.We are the chilren of anatolian civilizations who were the first civilisized people in the world.You think that we ride camels on deserts? well guess what, there are no camels or deserts in Turkey.It's a very warm climate here actually.Cities are modern, istanbul is one of the best cities in the world.Turks are more modern than you think, we are a secular and democratic country...

But I understand what you are..you are a radical christian right wing fascist, nothing else...and we don't have a cultural interaction with west europe? ask yourself why there are mosques in spain which was built many ages ago, or ask yourself why people of la coruna call themselves "los turcos".... fascist twat

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[–] MidniteRambler 18 years ago

aytacyolas... you are so very wrong. Ralumer has many, many problems but they can all be explained away by one sad fact - he's French .

I want something's flesh!

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[–] karnibahar 18 years ago

YOU FOOL , living in berlin and talking about women rights or bird flu doesnt mean you have some ideas about turks. i can answer everything you asked because i live here in TURKEY but i wont because you prepared yourself not to understand. i've been to lots and lots of european countries and lived in brussels for months. tell me how the governments seperates people by their origins, how you EUROPE support terrorism. yes i'm talkin to you mr.europe please tell me how you kill people only because they are from other races. ps. as a turk, i hate european union. someday mr.europe, you'll have no young population and beg us to join to EU. i'm really happy to be a turk and i know we don't need no one to develop. ps. look at our history. keyword : ataturk.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] CaseyAffleck 18 years ago

Wow, this post is amazingly racist. For one, for centuries the Ottoman Empire placed a great emphasis on technology and was more technologically advanced than Europe was. That was why the conquests came so easily. The Ottoman army was the first modern military in Europe, using cannons and mobile projectile "guns" before other Europeans even knew such technology was possible. Secondly, calling Turkey an Islamic country is misleading. That implies that the government is inherently religious in nature, but Turkey is in fact a secular democracy. It just happens that a majority of Turks chose to be Muslim, and as the country does observe freedom of religion I really don't see how you can hold that against them. You also compare the Turks to Mongols and Huns, making them out to be barbarians. In fact, the Ottoman Empire was quite a bit more civilized than many European powers when it came to human rights. In the 15th century, the kings of Spain and Portugal expelled all the Jews in their lands. These Jews went to live in the Ottoman Empire, which accepted them and never expelled them. The Ottoman Empire also opporated under the millet system, which meant that leaders of all religions, not just Islam, had direct contact with the Sultan. Minority religions were given a voice, something that didn't always happen in other European countries. The reason they weren't able to keep peace for very long as you put it (although the Empire did last in its large, multi-ethnic form from the mid 15th century until WWI) is because it was an Empire that was composed of many many different religious and ethnic groups, and these ethnic groups wanted autonomy (which is often the case, even in European Union countries like Spain with the Basques or Britain with the Irish). So maybe pick up a history book or two before you rant like an idiot who knows nothing about what he's talking about.

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[–] fredbel6 18 years ago

It's good to see some people still think before they write something here. All those posts with "YOU FOOL", "Euro-trash", "he's French!!", what an intelligent way to prove your point....

As far I know, Turkey is mostly Asian. I was taught that the Euro-Asian-border runs along the Uralmountains, the Ural river, Caspian Sea, Caucaus, Black Sea, Bosporus, Sea of Marmara and the Dardanelles. But that doesn't really matter because Norway and Switzerland who are as European as can be are no members at all...

I never visited Turkey but I know many people who have (and I read newspapers and websites) and it appears that Turkey is ahead when it comes to secularity..
When we were debating about banning the veil in schools..Turkey already had...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament#Composition
shows that the European Parliament distributes seats according to population (even though it's not really proportional). Turkey would be a major player (only Germany would be bigger in population). So it's something you should think twice about.

A couple of thinks AGAINST accession to the EU:
- right now there are many problems in my country with muslim (mainly Moroccan and Turkish) immigrants. The EU will make it a lot easier for Turks to come here to seek more prosperity.
- lack of freedom of speech : Orhan Pamuk, Perihan Magden,...
- trouble with the Kurdish minority

Plz visit my profile to take a look at unsolved threads.Plz use relevant title,SOLVED if so.

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[–] CaseyAffleck 18 years ago

Oh, there is no doubt that there are many issues to be addressed, and in my mind the population is the main concern. According to a Romanian girl in one of my classes here (the US) Turkey is actually better off than Romania as far as economy and government corruption and all that goes. The difference, however, is size. Romania's relatively small population is not seen as a large threat to the European work-place. The fear in Europe is that with such a large country, many Turks could immigrate to Europe and put jobs at risk. It isn't about religion like many say. Even though some more extreme Europeans want to keep the EU Christian, I would not be surprised to see Muslim countries like Bosnia and Croatia let in, the key is that they have small populations. Although I am for Turkish integration into the EU, I don't see it happenening soon. And really, Turkey doesn't need it that much. The Turkish economy is growing and improving without it, and I'm not that confident in the EU's longevity. Too many differences between member nations keep arising and the people of Britain, one of the EU's best economies, are increasingly distrustful of the EU. Wouldn't be surprised to see them pull out in the next 10 or so years.

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[–] TRINITY_ANGELIC 17 years ago

" by - CaseyAffleck on Fri Sep 22 2006 17:43:41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, there is no doubt that there are many issues to be addressed, and in my mind the population is the main concern. According to a Romanian girl in one of my classes here (the US) Turkey is actually better off than Romania as far as economy and government corruption and all that goes. The difference, however, is size. Romania's relatively small population is not seen as a large threat to the European work-place. The fear in Europe is that with such a large country, many Turks could immigrate to Europe and put jobs at risk. It isn't about religion like many say. Even though some more extreme Europeans want to keep the EU Christian, I would not be surprised to see Muslim countries like Bosnia and Croatia let in, the key is that they have small populations. Although I am for Turkish integration into the EU, I don't see it happenening soon. And really, Turkey doesn't need it that much. The Turkish economy is growing and improving without it, and I'm not that confident in the EU's longevity. Too many differences between member nations keep arising and the people of Britain, one of the EU's best economies, are increasingly distrustful of the EU. Wouldn't be surprised to see them pull out in the next 10 or so years. "

ROFL ..Croatia a muslim country???
For your information Croatia is probably the most rigorous catholic country in the world.

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