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Over 10 million were killed during the Holocaust - how do I know...read

posted 17 years ago by movieman-232
125 replies | jump to latest

I've been reading threads here and there on boards dedicated to movies about the Holocaust. On those threads there seems to be a big heated debate about how 6 million Jews couldn't have been the real number, and seeing how they think that, how could there be an 11 million count when we get right down to the actual total death toll. I'll tell you how, and this knowledge came from getting off this site to educate myself, which is something many seem to lack: The education of one'sself.

To begin, the source that says that the Holocaust begun with the systematic extermination of the Jews from 1942 to 1945 is erroneous. The Holocaust did not start in the gas chambers but in 1933 when Hitler came into power. The government had decided that to make the aryan race the strongest they made it law that sterilization was required. The handicapped as well as mentally ill and mentally challenged individuals were treated to vascectomies. The real plan behind this wasn't to necessarily sterilize but to murder for many going through this operation had suffered complications, killing them.

In 1939 the 1st gas chamber was used. So, from then on up until 1945 there were chambers being used, not just from '42 to '45.

Now considering these chambers, others on these boards claimed that after each usage there must be a period of time to let the gasses drift away, meaning there couldn't be as many put to death as there is said because those gasses take a long time to clear. That isn't correct because I'm sure that they used gas masks to clean up the bodies and paint the chambers a nice color before the next. I believe 3000 were killed each time. It would take anywhere from 15 minutes to, I assume, 30 minutes to get one chamber used to its completion - remember, there were a lot of workers there to help out. Take into mind that there wasn't just one gas chamber in a camp, either. So, from 1942, when the chambers were worked over time, there was enough going through there for a Holocaust to be as high as 10 million by the end.

And there were also trucks used; a hose from the tail pipe to the inside of the back was used, too. As was taking them out to burial sites to shoot.

The thing is, I believe that the Holocaust claimed lives before Hitler came into power, hence those who were full of hatred had probably ganged up with friends...

Point is: Everyone that comes on these sites claiming there to be no documents found containing the historical facts are being lazy. You only need to type in various words on the internet to find these facts. Heck, I was halfway lazy myself; I asked a friend about this because I knew she wouldn't be against working to help me find these accesable sources. I was more put off because this kind of thing gets to me. But I needed to do something considering what I've read here about the doubts.

And this goes as implication to all of those whom have read an opinionated post regarding their theory of "why 6 million couldn't be the correct number": Nazis were lazy too. Got off your high horse and get the facts. Quit ranting about what you feel is correct because others have said it. Find it for yourselves. And no, I will not give the net pages that account for my knowledge, because I did not ask my friend. If anyone were to ask that I would consider this initial post a failure. Education isn't only found within schools.

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] lady-picture-show 17 years ago

Finally someone else reads.
Thank you, oh beacon of hope in this world of slow decline of intelligence, and quick ascent to ignorance.

[–] yeah_sure 17 years ago

Well, movieman-232, congratulations for taking that bold step towards the «education of one'sself», and for sharing it with us.

I was particularly moved by your last sentences: «And no, I will not give the net pages that account for my knowledge, because I did not ask my friend. If anyone were to ask that I would consider this initial post a failure. Education isn't only found within schools».

Indeed. Who needs schools, or even books, when a few web pages found by that friend of yours, can fill us with such deep knowledge about things?

Of course, since you dont identify your source, we cant really know its credibility, can we? But we can still give it a try, could be fun. Lets go.

«In 1939 the 1st gas chamber was used». How? Where? By whom? With what purpose? Who cares? People need fast, concisive information, not useless details. I'm starting to feel the benefits of off-school education already.

«(...) others on these boards claimed that after each usage there must be a period of time to let the gasses drift away (...) because those gasses take a long time to clear». But you quickly sweep away these foolish notions:

«That isn't correct because I'm sure that they used gas masks to clean up the bodies and paint the chambers a nice color (??) before the next. I believe 3000 were killed each time. It would take anywhere from 15 minutes to, I assume, 30 minutes to get one chamber used to its completion».

So, you «are sure», you «believe» and you «assume» all of this? Gee, movieman-232, thanks for finally setting the record straight - your beliefs and assumptions really did it for me. Why on earth should I doubt them? I do wonder about those painting crews with the nice colors, though - do you think they used hairdryers, to speed up the drying of the paint? I really need your opinion on this.

«And there were also trucks used» (good - I like trucks) «a hose from the tail pipe to the inside of the back was used, too» (clever!) «As was taking them out to burial sites to shoot». Well, it sure makes a difference between taking them out to shooting sites to bury. Those cunning germans.

«The thing is, I believe that the Holocaust claimed lives before Hitler came into power, hence those who were full of hatred had probably ganged up with friends...».

Again, you BELIEVE so? Well, then it must be true! The actual holocaust goes way back then, in fact I believe (see, I'm getting the hang of it) that you can actually trace it as back as 5000 years ago. You see, I assume that already back then, the hateful crowd ganged up with their friends, to kill their innocent victims. They didnt have gas chambers (there was this tall blonde, blue-eyed guy working on them, but none of his friends took him seriously - how little they knew), so they had to use another weapon: a really big rock, which they liked to call «blitzy». I havent actually read or seen any proof about this, but a good friend of mine told me so, after visiting a few web pages. I'm sure its all true...

Ok, seriously now. You seem to be quite young, movieman-232, and your quest for knowledge is worthy of praise, but not your methods. You cant just ask some friend to google some keywords for you, put together a few random sentences, and then leave confident about your new found 'knowledge'. It doesnt work that way for the holocaust, or for any other subject.

Serious research takes a lot of time, and its not easy or fun - its a lot of work, sometimes boring, sometimes rewarding. But its the only way to really know a subject, whatever it is. And you cant simply rely on websites, there is way too much information outside of the internet, in good old books and written documents, that cant and probably will never be replaced, by google or anything else. This is especially true in the case of the holocaust, or any other historical matter that preceded the internet. There is also what we all call common sense - and any common sense disputes the official version of the holocaust.

[–] Alfriend 13 years ago

You provide no facts only your own opinion and very lame sarcasm. You ought to practice what you preach.

[–] Galroot 13 years ago

You are a moron. Sarcastic one, which is nice, but still a moron. Just visit "YAD VASHEM" memorial museum in Jerusalem,Israel. Bring a paper,pen and a calculator and by all means - count. Count the names, names of people who used to be someone's family. While you're there you can enjoy the nice photos.
Israel welcomes you to not replace Google and...educate yourself.

[–] mycroftson 13 years ago

you don't even need to visit the museum, the names are on-line.

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Grrrr_Yeah 7 years ago

Of course ... and we all believe the state of Israel and it's funder The Rothschild family

____________________
This is my opinion. You're welcome to yours, but you will be wrong.

[–] silautumn 17 years ago

i found most of your facts to be fairly spot on with a little tweaking. i am a little confused as to why you decided to post this thread specifically in the "hitler - rise to evil" (let's not go into how ridiculous the title for this movie is...) movie forum and not some other holocaust film or documentary forum.

"The Holocaust did not start in the gas chambers but in 1933 when Hitler came into power." is wrong. don't confuse the politics of the national socialist party's rise to power and world war ii with the 'holocaust'. nor did the holocaust start IN the gas chambers.

you go on to say that sterilization was made a law. i can't speak too surely about a law, but it did happen regardless, and not only to jewish german citizens, but as well to mentally handicapped, etc. anyone the nazi policy considered undesirable to strengthen the german 'race'.

"The real plan behind this wasn't to necessarily sterilize but to murder ..." no, the intent was to sterilize - they can live as long as they don't breed. even better, in the nazi view to was evacuate all undesirables out of germany (mostly jews).

"And there were also trucks used; a hose from the tail pipe ..." correct. this is one of the first systematic way of exterminating jews and other minority groups without getting one's hands 'dirty'. i would say the method used before the permanent installation of camps (although that does not mean it wasn't used after that) would be victims dig ditches, and then shot at the foot of the ditch.

i will agree with part of the statement, "In 1939 the 1st gas chamber was used."
the trucks you referred to are mobile killing units or einsatzgruppen that used the exhaust from the vehicle to kill sealed off victims in the back of the truck. in that sense, the first 'gas chamber' was used but i dont think that's how you meant it. zyklon b (used in auschwitz-birkenau and majdanek - gas exhaust was used in all other camps) wasn't used in mass amounts until 1942.

i have no idea what you mean by the next paragraph; i guess discussing numbers still. i doubt the chambers were repainted - there was no need. the part about gas masks sound right. the only things i feel certain to speak about that this point in time of deportation and arrival was that workers of the camps themselves (aka prisoners) were the people who brought the bodies out of the chamber afterwards, and people who were still waiting in line surely would have glimpsed what was happening.

"The thing is, I believe that the Holocaust claimed lives before Hitler came into power ..." ABSOLUTELY wrong! the holocaust refers to the specific period of time that is the mass murder of innocents during world war ii. if you were thinking of anti-semitism before the war, then perhaps the word you were looking for is pogrom. i would absolutely agree that anti-semitism occurred not only before, but after the war in semi-regular outbursts. however, the holocaust itself is unprecedented.

i agree that people should educate themselves instead of talking about a subject where they think they know the facts. unfortunately, you have done just that. you have facts but they are completely accurate. i would take care in making such declarative statements; it sounds like fact. also, i would be wary of anything the internet has to say, especially on such a controversial subject.

[–] EccentricFeline 17 years ago

Movieman-232:
It's about time someone with a brain spoke up.

The only reason people today want to believe that there weren't that many killed is because it's always easier to believe something that isn't outrageous- and the Holocaust was excruciatingly outrageous. People just don't want to see it. Don't want to believe it.

But to me, 6 million isn't hard to believe at all. Why is it people won't look at the pictures? The videos? As Nazis loved to record their disgusting "achievments". That isn't proof that mass murders were committed?
Just look at the piles upon piles of dead bodies lying in the streets.
You want links? I'll give you links. Help yourselves.

http://samueljscott.wordpress.com/2007/04/08/those-who-do-not-remember-the-past/

http://www.theology.edu/antisemitism.htm

http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/history_of_the_holocaust_1.jpg

I would like for you all to take a good, long look at the last picture especially. Try to count the bodies, and remember, this is just in one spot. ONE SPOT. It doesn't count all the others that were burned, thrown in gas chambers, starved to death, shot, beaten, experimented on, etc.

So don't even start an argument, because it'll just make you look dumber than dirt.

I think that if this happened to any other race, people wouldn't have a hard time accepting it, but since all you fools today have some kind of grudge against Jews for no reason at all, you can simply just deny their horrific persecution.
And that is sick. You're no different than a Nazi.

You can't just deny a huge part of history just because you "don't see any evidence". Maybe you should try opening your eyes, or pulling your head out of your ass. I have no doubt that the ones who deny the Holocaust, or the vast number of deaths, are the same people who would think it was okay to re-write the Constitution to suit some terrorist instead of the American people.

Okay, I hope we had fun today, and maybe you have learned something- if you have a little more brain power than a gnat.

Have a nice day.
-
**Have you considered suing your brains for nonsupport?**

[–] southern-girl 17 years ago

jbooth19...

go to auschwitz/birkenau

then say you doubt it ever happened...

the huge numbers of posessions from jews there, not to mention the hair, should prove how large the numbers were, especially when you realise that that is only from one camp, and how short an amount of time it took to collect it.

[–] EccentricFeline 17 years ago

Amen, Southern-girl.

-
**Have you considered suing your brains for nonsupport?**

[–] yeah_sure 17 years ago

Well, I'm happy to see that this thread keeps improving its high scientific standards. After movieman-232's exciting tales of "what happened", based on those random internet pages visited by that mysterious friend of his, we now have the luxury of EccentricFeline's opinions.

EccentricFeline, to whom we must be thankful for taking the time from her other more important discussions, like «type your fav. eddie furlong movie w/ your nose!», quickly sets the mood for her firm assertions: «It's about time someone with a brain spoke up». Indeed.

And if you still have any doubts about what she says, you're automatically an idiot: «So don't even start an argument, because it'll just make you look dumber than dirt».

EccentricFeline, try to stick to Eddie Furlong's threads, at least until you are older than 14, and do keep up your excellent nose-keyboard interaction - its quite a rare talent.

About these and other posts, that mention or give links to terrible photos of dead prisoners - nobody can question that thousands of people died in concentration camps, in horrible conditions. No ideological, political, or historical context, can ever justify this.

However, the real question now, is this: was there a planned, coldly executed death system in place, using gas chambers and extreme cruelty towards jews, gipsys, etc? My common sense says: NO, and so does the existing (or should I say non-existing) proof.

Concentration camps did exist in Britain, and in the US as well. The photos of german camps, shown to us over and over again as "proof", do show malnourished prisoners, that died probably from thyphus, or other diseases related to the poor conditions in the camps. Not one of them, was found with traces of gas poisoning - this is a FACT.

The gas chambers shown today on tours, were built by the soviets, and all the stories around this issue, sprang from the soviet/allied marketing machine, working against the germans. The same thing happened in WWI. The difference was, back then nobody took those claims as accurate.

Something strange happened just after WWII - outlandish claims suddenly became real, and at the same time, the whole world changed: Israel became a country, amidst enemies, the Soviet Union took a great part of Europe, and the US became the most powerful country in the world, lending money and gaining power, to the destroyed Europe of the late 40s/early 50s. This was the greatest tragedy of all, in my opinion. But lets move on.

I also dont know what exactly happened in Treblinka or Bergen-Belsen, because I wasnt there. I just know, that a lot of things in this story just dont make any sense. Think for yourself, and I believe you will find the same questions. Be prepared, though: nobody really wants to answer these questions, and you will be inconvenient just for asking them.

[–] EccentricFeline 17 years ago

Oh, right, let's take your word for all of that... Since you are omniscient.

And how exactly did they find that there were no traces of "gas poisoning"? Oh wait, they must have glued all of the ashes back together from the burnt bodies! That's it!

What do you think they did with the bulk of the bodies in the chamber when they needed to fit others inside? Make them disappear with a magic trick?

Malnourished... yes, that's a nice way of putting it.

It's nice to see that you've backed all of that up too. Or even given a few links at the least.

Ah, the lame "14 year old" retorts- that's original. They make it look like you're trying to cover that up yourself.
Oh, and what else... the ever-popular, taking-another's-words-and-twisting-them trick, such as "You're an idiot if you doubt what she says."
Nowhere did I type "You're an idiot if you doubt what I say." Check again please. There, you see?
Now, let's go through it again, I know sometimes it's hard to grasp for some people, but we'll take little steps. :)
If you doubt the pictures, the videos, etc, you're an idiot- why? Because you can SEE those. You don't need faith for that. So obviously you have a glitch if you try to deny any mass murders when the evidence sits right in front of your eyes.

Oh, and remind me-- why would there be a need to lie about gas chambers exactly? Kind of a ridiculous thing to lie about, yeah?
And I guess all those Jews that miraculously survived must be in on the hoax too...

Ah, thanks for that, I had myself a good laugh- especially the part where you actually view a poster's history and try to use it to make you sound better- cracks me up!!

Thanks again, and have a great day!!

-
**Have you considered suing your brains for nonsupport?**

[–] yeah_sure 17 years ago

EccentricFeline, I'm not under 14 - although those were indeed fun years - nor can I be sure, that you are in fact under 14 - you just sound like it.

About twisting your words, for example, how else would you define «So don't even start an argument, because it'll just make you look dumber than dirt», other than a way of saying «if you disagree with me, just shut up»?

Most of your other comments are also insightful, like «It's about time someone with a brain spoke up», or «I know sometimes it's hard to grasp for some people, but we'll take little steps. :)». Oh really.

About the photos, and this is a serious issue, do try to focus - its a FACT that all those people died, and that was - and is - WRONG. No political argument can ever justify what happened.

But the evidence regarding NO gas poisoning, does NOT refer to burnt bodies, but rather to the bodies in those photos, and videos. You can indeed «SEE those», they are a terrible sight, but not one of those victims was gassed.

Have you ever seen photos or videos from concentrations camps, where the prisoners are not walking skeletons? They do exist, you know? The population at the german camps was not starved to death - they had food, and appropriate clothes for winter.

Their life was NOT easy - far from it. This was due to the brutality of some of their guards AND other prisoners/kapos - which prison doesnt have them, even now? - and to the harsh conditions of the camps, which declined by the end of the war. Why? Because Germany had its roads and trains bombed by soviets and allies, until the very end. Even most german cities were bombed to pieces, Dresden is just the main example.

Do you honestly think, that if Britain or the USA had their main cities bombed to ashes, they would make their japanese/german concentrations camps, a priority of war?

About «why would there be a need to lie about gas chambers exactly», well, if you cant find that out for yourself, maybe I cant help you at all. Lets just say, that you need to take a good look around - maybe when you grow up, I dont know.

Oh, and I almost forgot the complementary insult: have you written all of your post with your nose? And how is that brilliant Eddie Furlong doing - I'd really like to hear his opinion on all of this. Eddie rules!

[–] batistuta47 16 years ago

"Evidence" that there was no gas poisoning has been debunked numerous times. Let us not forget that we have the sworn testimony of the men behind it.

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

Let us not forget, batistuta47, that people were put in jail, and some are there right now, just for stating things that are contrary to our current system.

Suppose that I am an extreme-right supporter, and that my whole family, in one way or another, always supported nazism. Would you trust my opinions, or any movie that I would make, financed by friends that think like I did?

Or maybe you would think, that my movies, opinions, articles, books, whatever, were partial? I think so.

But when you read a book, or watch a movie made by a jewish person, and financed by other jewish persons, dont you ever wonder if you're only seeing one side of the story? Cant they be partial?

I'm not even talking about holocaust in itself, what happened or not - just common sense, about everyday issues. Discrimination, in politically correct terms, seems to go only one way - be it europeans, americans, africans, or whatever, the persecuted, the main victims, are always the jews. Why is this?

[–] batistuta47 16 years ago

Your entire post is a deflection from the statement at hand that there is no evidence for mass gassings.

There is ample evidence of mass gassings and those that have attempted to debunk it have been shown incorrect repeatedly. Arguing that there were no gassings is the equivalent of still arguing for a geocentric model of the universe. You have the right to say/believe whatever you want (and personally I believe that should be true in all countries), but the caveat is that you have to accept that everyone will know you are and regard you as an idiot. Furthermore, you should realize that it undermines any other valid arguments you may make when you attempt to lend credence to a theory that has absolutely no basis in reality.

[–] movieman-232 16 years ago

The calendar is often wrong about the seasons, so the Holocaust might have begun on a certain date, but there were only 6 million Jews killed. It's semantics. And I press yeah sure to get up out of his desk chair and head right on over to his local library and find the books in which he is talking about and give the posting a break. In my library there is a huge book that is the log book reprinted from Aushwitz. It tells all about the goings on, I believe. You see, I'm not certain because I only looked at a few pages.

I know it takes time to find the information, thing is I'm way too sensitive to try it at this point. You may say "of course it happened, and it was wrong" but then you say "it doesn't make any sense, so it can't be right." And no, that wasn't verbatim, it was what it made me think when I think back on the words, it is in my words. And, man, it doesn't mean you are a dumb nitwit if you find a ridiculous thing quite enjoyable; I love Return of the Living Dead, but that doesn't mean I'm a teenager. Heck, I even like Basket Case and the Friday the 13th movies, still doesn't make me an idiot. What does is speaking of the Holocaust in coulda beens and then going back to say it couldn't have been. It doesn't make sense? Well, neither does American polatics, they're still quite real...really dumb! The problem is is these arrogant jerks that post their anti-antis all over, once claiming it is wrong to murder so many people then to say it never happened, claiming to be non anti-semetic but then to go on about the Holocaust never occurring...what else is that, toleration, yeah sure? Grow up! Learn to search for yourself. And quit being such a troll...I'm thinking about you, yeah sure. You may have a few backing you up, but to be so stuburn is to accept failure. It is your failure that you haven't found the proof. No one elses. Try looking 1st, then you might find what you so obviously can't comprehend. I sure as hell can't comprehend it. But I am very sympathetic. You are apathetic, it seems.

Yes, the nazis filmed lots of their acts, but film is a poor means of collecting; it deteriorates; look at any of your vhs tapes that you haven't watched since you got your DVDs, I have noticed damages in mine. Back in the 30s & 40s I assure you the film used wasn't good enough to stay the years.

Man, this whole thing makes me so mad at the human race! Sure, I used a lots of "I believes". So what? Like some have said: I wasn't there, so I have to believe in something. I lie in bed sometimes drifting off to sleep thinking in that state of peace and relaxation that a Holocaust forced by a government CAN'T have ever happened. But once I wake up, usually after the shock of remembering that it DID happen, I think what a bad senseless world we live in. And don't think this is a ruse for sympathy. It isn't! It is just the truth.

Why did I choose this movie site to post in? Because I knew you, yeah sure, linger here. I tried to help you out but all you seem to be capible of is ranting and raving about your incapabilities of learning and understanding. You are the type that seems incorrigable, one who never learns, but don't put that over on me. I'm not going to come get you and take your hand and take you to the place of reason, sorry. I'm just not that powerful. Take off that wool and see for yourself. If you can't, or that you won't, obsess about something else, please. Thank you.

[–] ThunderRaiden 16 years ago

<<Let us not forget, batistuta47, that people were put in jail, and some are there right now, just for stating things that are contrary to our current system.

Suppose that I am an extreme-right supporter, and that my whole family, in one way or another, always supported nazism. Would you trust my opinions, or any movie that I would make, financed by friends that think like I did?

Or maybe you would think, that my movies, opinions, articles, books, whatever, were partial? I think so.

But when you read a book, or watch a movie made by a jewish person, and financed by other jewish persons, dont you ever wonder if you're only seeing one side of the story? Cant they be partial?

I'm not even talking about holocaust in itself, what happened or not - just common sense, about everyday issues. Discrimination, in politically correct terms, seems to go only one way - be it europeans, americans, africans, or whatever, the persecuted, the main victims, are always the jews. Why is this?>>

Rofl, i had to stop reading after this. The germans financed their own movies depicting their hate speech of the jewish race and all of them applauded. they filmed their side you moron. Jesus Christ.

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

ThunderRaiden, what I wrote, in a way that even children (or Americans) should be able to understand, is that movies, books, etc., may be biased - especially when they come from a source with an agenda - and that may happen from either side.

As you so cunningly observed, Germans have done it too, in the past. But now - and by "now" I mean the last 60 years or so - we have the opposite: anti-german movies, books, etc., produced or funded mainly by jews. Especially when it comes to the holocaust theme.

Nevertheless, I'm sorry for my difficult post. After reading your reply, I can understand your drama. Maybe you should stick to comic books, what do you think?

[–] sammy_mendel 16 years ago

Dear "yeah_sure",

the oft-quoted six million figure is in fact Adolf Eichmann's own estimate. The actual figure is probably a few hundred thousand lower; this is based on population censuses taken before and after the war. This correlates with the Nazis' own records, among them the famous Hofle telegram, which documents the deaths of 1.2 million Jews in death camps during 1942. Every serious historian who has studied it has arrived at a figure between 5 and 6 million - prominent among these is Martin Gilbert, a non-Jew, who put it at 5.75 million.

What worries me is your talk of "anti-German" films and books "funded mainly by Jews". There is simply no evidence that any Jew has been "anti-German" - as opposed to "anti-Nazi", and certainly this is not indicative of mainstream Jewish opinion. What you are saying is that there is Jewish-produced propaganda - and although there are several Jewish producers in Hollywood, I don't think there has ever been a film made that shows Nazism as being synonymous with being German. Yes, Hollywood has its baddies, and I hate it when ordinary Nazi foot-soldiers are dehumanized - but compared to the treatment of the Japanese in Hollywood's black and white world, the Germans escape comparatively free.

As a Jew myself, I can tell you that we seek to leave the Holocaust behind - while at the same time remaining conscious that such a thing must never happen again. There would be no point in exaggerating a figure: four million, five million, what does it matter except that such a crime of hatred was ever perpetrated? I don't like the figure six million - I prefer to say that seventy million human beings died in that terrible war. My feelings are indicative of the vast majority of people, including Jews, worldwide.

Peace,

Sammy Mendel

[–] therion23 16 years ago

I agree with your way of counting, for sure. Most people forget that a further 6 million Slavs, Gypsies, political prisoners, criminals and even random people died by German hand.

People ALSO forget that the Soviet army killed 12.5 million people at complete random on their "way back", PLUS the hundreds of thousands (cannot remember the exact figure) they deported to Siberia. We are talking just below 30 million human beings only on European scale, and that is still not counting the death tally at sea war in the Mediterreanean and the Atlantic.

On a whole other note (in reply to someone else above), there were no gas chambers in 1939, no. They started using the socalled T4 Chambers, which was basically airtight barracks first filled with people, then filled with carbon monoxide. This was, for all i remember, the first method of mass execution.

Search Wikipedia for "Action T4" if you want to know the background. The article was correct last time i read it at least.

[–] jandrianos-1 16 years ago

The Wannsee Doctrin. It was there that Heydrich and Eichmann et al discussed the "Jewish Question". It was there that they decided to exterminate the Jews.
If you need further proof that there actually was a holocaust than I would suggest that you visit your local Sinigag oh watch the documentary Shoah.
As for further written proof, the Nazis were if anything very diligent in documenting their murders.
An even better suggestion is go and talk to a survivor and tell them what happened to them didn't, go to a concentration camp and walk out of the gas chamber and say that it never happened.
I was 17 when I visited to Dachau and death engulfed all of us. Not a single person left the camp thinking that it never happened or it was just an exageration.

[–] Chaco1942 16 years ago

The Germans and their death camp managers meticulously documented everything. The SS field commandos who shot jews by the thousands and hundreds of thousands all over Eastern Europe and Russia meticulously documented everything.

The Nazis who stood trial in many courtrooms after the war didn't deny it happened, they just insisted it wasn't their fault. They were just "cogs" in the wheels of death. Some openly boasted of their "achievements" in ridding Europe of Jewry.

The Wannsee Conference actually happened and the notes of that meeting were preserved.

The evidence of a real holocaust just goes on and on and on...

[–] Chaco1942 16 years ago

[–] movieman-232 16 years ago

I'm wondering if this "yeah sure" is hidding behind a ruse; I was thinking that he seems to want others to go find these documents and bring them forth so he can see 'em for himself - to destroy 'em, I don't know? Now, if it is a ruse, he's either wanting us all to learn of what happened, the worse of the worst, just to educate ourselves. But if it is a different ploy, I'm thinking he might be a true anti-semite, just hides behind lies, like a sociopath. I'm not sure which he is, or exactly what kind of a person he is, but it bugs me how he goes about his little tirades of arrogance and stupidity. No, it's not stupid to question, but it is stupid to see so much proof but still not consider it might've really happened. Always saying, "well, we've all seen the camps where the deaths occurred but no one wants to talk about those that did not kill Jews. Thing is, we have, but the other just sticks in our minds more because we are empathetic to what we see. Heck, those at the camps in which they didn't exterminate died through everything from malnurishment to killing each other for whatever reason and diseases due to the surroundings not being on the up and up; the situation.

I'm not certain who mentioned it but there was some talk about the nazis being rather mannered, rather nice, more so that the other occupying forces some had witnessed. Thing is, I wonder if these that saw the nice nazis were Jewish...? I doubt it.

"yeah sure" seems will never agree that it happened. At least not while having not contradicting himself in return.

I'm very tired of discussing this poor, controversial subject. I leave in peace. Please show respect to others. Just a thought.

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

To understand movieman-232's full view of my comments, and of this entire subject, we should go back to his first post - the one where he explains how the gas chambers were given «a nice color», before each new batch of victims.

You see, movieman-232 has decided to address this issue, by asking some friend of his, to research it on the internet. His friend came up with a few web pages, after a very thorough search no doubt, and movieman-232 took some sentences from here and there, to make up his mind about the holocaust, about myself, and who knows, about life.

Of course, he could learn more, but you see, «thing is he's way too sensitive to try it at this point». Well, movieman-232, you dont seem so sensitive when it comes to sticking your finger against arguments you dont even understand.

Jews, and all other prisioners of war, should have never been deported, in the first place; all that happened to them, afterwards, was a consequence of that decision.

But the british and the americans, did the same, in their countries. The main differences, were the quantity of the prisoners, and the conditions at the camps. There was never real war or full-scale bombings in Britain or the US, like in German occupied territory. Of course the conditions at german camps had to decline, by the end of the war, and of course many more prisioners died from it.

This is all fact. The only thing that we're really discussing, is the planned mass murder of jews and other prisoners, through some evil and centralized plan, that defies logic and common sense. And especially, the murder of jews - because strangely, we never see anything as notorious as Schindler's List or The Pianist, about any of other victims, do we?

I wonder why. Is it because - I dunno - the directors, and especially the producers, are almost always jewish? But nobody even thinks about this - again, if neo-nazis would make a movie about it, wouldnt you suspect, something could be wrong? And yet, you accept movies that are partially or entirely funded by jewish people, that tell tales about the suffering of jews or how nasty the germans were, and dont question anything - its all true! Any exaggeration - if indeed exists - its entirely justifiable, and lets not even talk about it.

Talk about it? Are you an anti-semite or something?? Because either you buy all of it, and never argue or question anything, or thats what you are - an anti-semite. Didnt you notice? Jews are always the victims, and they are always right.

To Chaco1942: since you brought up Hoess' confession, why dont you also mention that hideous camp that he also confessed, Wolzec? Strangely, no movie was ever made about this one - maybe we should write an email to Spielberg about it?

[–] Chaco1942 16 years ago

Once again...

The Germans themselves stand convicted from thier own tongues. Thousands of Germans admitted to having systematically rounded up and systematically murdered many millions of Jews and others as part of a national conspiracy to rid Europe and Russia of Jewry.

1. Meticulous notes from the Wannasse Conference.
2. Meticulous notes kept by SS and other thousands of documents kept
by the Werhmacht.
3. Eyewitness accounts by many thousands who saw it happening.
4. The testimonies at the various Nuremburg trials of many thousands of
Germans who participated in the butchery and horror and didn't deny
any of it.
5. Films and photos, etc;, and the list of evidence goes on and on.

Few events in history have been so well documented. I'm not Jewish but I didn't grow up in Aryan Supremist village, either.

[–] chasem1 16 years ago

Written documents—hundreds of thousands of letters, memos, blueprints, orders, bills, speeches, articles, memoirs, and confessions.

Eyewitness testimony—accounts from survivors, Jewish Sonderkommandos (who were forced to help load bodies from the gas chambers into the crematoria in exchange for the promise of survival), SS guards, commandants, local townspeople, and even high-ranking Nazis who spoke openly about the mass murder of the Jews

Photographs—including official military and press photographs, civilian photographs, secret photographs taken by survivors, aerial photographs, German and Allied film footage, unofficial photographs taken by the German military.

The camps themselves—concentration camps, work camps, and extermination camps that still exist in varying degrees of originality and reconstruction

Inferential evidence—population demographics, reconstructed from the pre-World War II era; if six million Jews were not killed, what happened to them all?

[–] erik_alm 16 years ago

I agree in your sentiment that you shouldn't try to present non-facts as fact. If you are going to have a discussion about facts, you should go get the facts before you start discussing.

I also agree that the Internet is not a good place to go to find these facts mostly because anyone can put anything on the Internet with no control at all. I myself love psychology because good psychological research is based solely on experiments where you can find out how they did, what they did, and what the results where. The second best thing to being there yourself.

Unfortunately history isn't like psychology (or chemistry or physics or any other science where most of your research is based on experiments or observation). History is always bordering on hearsay. In the best case someone was there and saw a part of the event and wrote something about it. But we can never be sure what their agenda was. What their true political goals were. And in most cases we may have to rely on second or third hand information to get the whole picture.

That's why, when discussing history, we need to thread carefully and gather lots of evidence for our claims. (Which very few people on this discussion has done so far, and I won't do it either, mostly because that's not my point).

When faced with a claim that we believe to be wrong we react differently mostly depending on what kind of claim it is. If someone claims we stole their wallet and we know this to be wrong we usually feel a very strong and urgent need to prove them wrong, and we get facts to support our claim (usually because the nice police officer with the pad and pen will want them...)

If, however someone claims something like that the holocaust happened and we *feel* it is wrong we usually just retorts with a "that's not true" and then the other guy goes "is too" and we say "is not" and then the "debate" is on.

Okay seriously. When it's something that hasn't happened in front of our noses or doesn't really affect us (as far as we can see when we go from home to work/school and back again) we don't care much for finding facts, and we borrow our answers from the first reasonable/good looking/similarly fated/minded person we bump into with no or little regard for their level of truthfulness. After all, it happened more than 50 years ago, and in Europe and to people we don't even know, why bother? They're probably lying anyway, so the secret Sionistic conspiracy can take over the world, right?

Okay, sorry, I just have to ask. In denying the holocaust, what is your agenda?

[–] bayowolf 15 years ago

Yeah_sure:

For the Love of God, READ.

While you're at it, read this:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-12.h tml

~~Bayowolf
WHY didn't you put the bunny in the box??

[–] yeah_sure 15 years ago

Nizkor? Not a very good start, bayowolf.

I could say that this page (or at least most of it) nails it, too: http://www.israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/HOLOHOAX.htm .

[–] bayowolf 15 years ago

Things that make you say, "HMMM"!

I clicked on that url in my earlier posting and got a 404; I did a copy&paste of the url in your posting, I got a 404 also. Both parent sites (Nizkor and Israelect) seem to be okay.

Things that make you say, "HMMM"!

My point was that I can Google "proof of holocaust", click on "I'm-feeling-lucky" button and let fly. And get any number of websites that say Holocaust deniers are full of crap! And the only negative thing the Simon Wiesenthal Center has to say about the Nizkor Project is that it raises the profile of Holocaust denial. I guess the Center is under the misapprehension that if people ignore Holocaust denial maybe it would go away.

After looking at the israelect site (even though I could find the link to the specific page that you cited), as a skeptic I have to say that I'm skeptical.

~~Bayowolf
WHY didn't you put the bunny in the box??

[–] bayowolf 15 years ago

The reason I don't deny the Holocaust is that I have seen evidence of it myself. Here's one example of evidence that I have seen: I recommend that you go to the "Visitor's Center" at Bergen-Belsen and take a look at the mural-sized photograph there in the main room. In the center of the photograph, you'll see a soldier (British, I think) standing next to a pallet; on the pallet you'll see bodies (out of morbid curiousity, I counted the bodies--there were 6 bodies on the bottom layer and the next layer up had 6 more bodies stacked across the first layer of bodies and the next layer up had 6 more bodies stacked across the 2nd layer...and so forth and so on, until there were 7 layers of bodies. That's 42 bodies on one pallet if you can't do math.). Next to the first pallet was several (7-8, I believe) more similarly-stacked pallets. Behind this first row of stacked pallets were another row of stacked pallets, behind that row was more rows...and more...and more until perspective thinned out the rows into a vanishing point. I cried when I realized that the country that gave us Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms could be capable of such barbarism. If Germany, one of the most civilized nations on the Earth, is capable of doing such things, what does that say about the rest of us?

Remind me to tell you someday about the "Sowjietgrabenplatz" (Soviet graveyard) that I inadvertantly found down the road from Bergen-Belsen. Over 100,000 Russian soldiers buried in a patch of land half the size of a WalMart parking lot.

~~Bayowolf
WHY didn't you put the bunny in the box??

[–] yeah_sure 15 years ago

bayowolf, you are talking about the millions of people who died, jewish or not, mainly due to typhus, starvation and everyday violence.

But when most people talk about the "Holocaust", it usually means the systematic extermination of (mainly) jews, through an organized system of gas chambers and crematoriums.

Those piles of corpses that you mention, are indeed the tragic result of putting those people in concentration camps, which conditions got much worse by the end of the war. But there is no hard evidence of any gas chamber, or any gassed victim, or that such a systematic plan ever existed.

I visited that link that I had posted, and its definitely working. Try reading it again. No one argues the existence and the brutality of the camps.

[–] bayowolf 15 years ago

OK: Let's, for argument's sake, say that there were no gas chambers or crematoria. And, for argument's sake, let's stipulate that the SS did not have panel trucks with hoses running from the exhaust back into the "cargo" section so the occupants could breathe carbon monoxide. And, let's say that there were not mass shootings of people by the side of the road next to a mass grave. Also, let's say that the Nazis did not close off whole sections of Polish cities so that the inhabitants thereof may starve to death. Do you not see anything wrong with millions (you did say "millions" right?) dying from typhus simply because they were forced to live in heinous conditions for no sane reason?

You are wrong when you say the "Holocaust" is referring only to people being murdered in gas chambers and cremated in ovens. The Holocaust refers to the system (employed by the Nazi government) of oppression, enslavement, and (eventually) murder of 12,000,000 Europeans (half of whom happened to be Jewish).

~~Bayowolf
WHY didn't you put the bunny in the box??

[–] yeah_sure 15 years ago

The nazi government tried to isolate all those they perceived as enemies. Britain and the US did the same. Is that sane? Not if you're the one taken from your home, and thrown into a camp. But apparently, both Roosevelt and Churchill also found it acceptable.

Still, no one can dispute the cruelty and the appaling conditions to which nazis' "enemies" were subjected. Many people died. Was that a holocaust? Definitely so. But the big difference, is in the first "H". There have been many holocausts, but there is only one Holocaust. The jewish Holocaust.

And that Holocaust, the one we hear and read about everyday and everywhere, with museums and school tours and billions invested in market... sorry, education, is NOT about oppression, or enslavement, or even mass shootings. Those were all terrible events, but unfortunately they are far from unique, especially during a war.

No, not even the ghettos, or the persecution of jews, would deserve the big "H", if it wasnt for one thing: their deliberate, industrial, cold-blooded, extermination. In gas chambers.

The world's collective conscience, the core of our humanity, was touched by this notion: in Europe, in the middle of the 20th century, Germany - the nation of Bach and Goethe, as you pointed out - calmly divised a plan to exterminate an entire people, using the technology available to them, and carried out that plan with no mercy or remorse, like we now do in slaughterhouses. So yes, the gas chambers ARE the key here.

Apart from that, some other facts are also questionable - the number of jews/other people killed, for example. In Auschwitz, that number dropped from 4 million to 1.1, still the 6 million jews figure remains. Why? And did anyone count the vast number of "Holocaust survivors", most of them asking for war reparations? Do you know how much Israel already got, and still gets, due to this?

Its not about right or wrong - of course it was wrong. Everything was wrong. Its about what really happened. And its not just historical curiosity, because this still influences our world today, and we are still unable to discuss it openly. On the contrary: we get brainwashed from school, because all the money and influence is on one side. I'm sure you know which one.

BTW, I dont know if you're aware of what happened in cities like Dresden and Hamburg, by the end of the war? And what happened to german war prisoners, at the hands of Gen. Eisenhower? Do look it up too, when talking about holocausts.

[–] bayowolf 15 years ago

Actually, the story of the Holocaust was the story of the Nazis casting about looking for the most efficient way to exterminate the Jews; they were experimenting with different methods: They tried the "killing trucks" as I described in an earlier post (this method was too slow); they tried the road-side firing squads [This method wasted too many bullets (after all, there was a war going on) and, when they tried the ol' "one Jew, one bullet" method, that was too slow.]. They tried working them to death in the service of IG Farben and they tried squeezing a million of them in a square mile of Warsaw to make them starve to death. The showers-and-ovens method was merely the state of the art of industrial-scale killing circa 1943-44--the capstone technology of genocide at that time (the result of a "valiant" search by the best minds of the SS for the most efficient way to eliminate a race). To say that the mass extermination of Europe's Jews would not be a Holocaust without the showers-and-ovens goes beyond ridiculous. "Stupid" is closer to the correct word. Allow me to illustrate:

You apparently have a problem with what happened to Dresden and Hamburg during the War. Why?? We didn't nuke them.

See?

To say the Holocaust wouldn't be the Holocaust without the showers-and-ovens is like saying World War 2 wouldn't be a war without "Little Boy" and "Fat Man".

~~Bayowolf
WHY didn't you put the bunny in the box??

[–] Mex5150 12 years ago

but since all you fools today have some kind of grudge against Jews

Today? I recommend you read a little more into the history of Anti-Semitism, it is FAR from a new thing.

~Mex

--

Did you ever notice that people who believe in creationism look really un-evolved?

[–] Chaco1942 16 years ago

The German SS Commandant of Auschwitz was Rudolph Hoess, not to be confused with Rudolph Hess.

At Hoess's own Nuremburg trial the following testimony took place...

Attorney: "You were Camp Commandant of Auschwitz from 1940 to 1943?"

Hoess: "Yes."

Attorney: "And in that time hundreds of thousands of human beings were put
to death there, is that correct?"

Hoess: "Yes."

Attorney: "Is it true that Eichmann told you that altogether over two
million Jewish people were killed in Auschwitz?"

Hoess: "Yes."

Attorney: "Men, women, and children?"

Hoess: "Yes."

Hoess testified without any remorse or emotion whatsoever. His story and others like it went on and on during the various Nuremburg trials.

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

Please read, the following explanation to Hoess' confession: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/wolzek-paradox/ .

This is the fundamental part [my comments are within brackets]:
«
The deniers' [as in: God's deniers] explanation is that this made-up camp "Wolzek" was invented out of nothing, because Höß was simply tortured into confessing to things which did not exist [impossible: the german prisoners were never tortured! right?].

But the paradox is resolved by reading the interrogation transcript and looking at the map. The camp was there. It was not invented, just misnamed [ho-hum].

The reader may judge which rival hypothesis best fits the facts:

- Höß was inventing details under torture and just happened to place a fictitious death camp in exactly the same location as the real, omitted Reinhard death camp, or
- he just got its name wrong.
The choice is obvious. [indeed]

Why do Holocaust-deniers [as in: God-deniers] rush to embrace the wrong choice? The answer is left as an exercise for the reader.

And why did Höß think the camp was named "Wolzek"? That's a mystery whose answer may never be known [certainly not because he was tortured! - we already established that is impossible].

But considering that his job was to run the Auschwitz camp, three hundred kilometers away [and german commanders had no clue about what was happening outside their camps - even phones didnt exist]; that the extermination program was always kept under strictest secrecy [except, of course, for the thousands of witnesses, and "detailed" records that you mention in your posts]; and that the surrounding territory had been conquered and thus bore names in both his native tongue and Polish [ah, those tricky germans: accurate for some things, totally confused for others]: a misunderstanding is surely not out of the question.
»

Indeed, a misunderstanding! You see, we have here the full explanation for that mysterious "Wolzec" camp - a misunderstanding, from the commander at the main "death camp", that is so accurate about all other things - maybe the things, that fit these outlandish claims?

Cant we say the same, about many - if not all - the "facts" that you also claim?

[–] movieman-232 16 years ago

I don't think I've ever said that you can't question; you just take it too far when you are demanding something that certainly doesn't belong to you, which I've wrote to you over and over again. It has already been answered. Yes, I can argue with you, my stomach only turns half way when arguing with a stuburn person, but when learning about how millions of people died and the way in which they had died, then sure, yeah sure, it can become somewhat overwhelming. So, you claim that you must go through a lot of research to find out what really happened...no amount of websites will be as great resourses as books. Well, how about you try that yourself, why don't you try going out to your library and research instead of hounding posters for a while? I don't think you will - or can - because you need the drama. It seems I might be in that league myself, because if I weren't, I wouldn't be still trying to debate with you.

My friend said to me that people like you will never really quit your asinine propogation of wanting more and more mystery into all of this denial, that you just can't, you're addicted, in a way, to all of this intrigue. So, I guess what she means is: you think that if you can debate for so long you can make it fresh again, like it was when the truth came out about the death camps, so you can always try to claim it never happened, or that it was wrong, so wrong, in fact, that it is impossible that something so wrong could have ever happened. I'm beginning to believe her. It makes sense. You know, she might not agree, but I think it is, in a way, commemdable, not honest, not even really moral, but a nice try to get some people to question...question what? Their own government today...? If so, you're in a conspiracy yourself. But lets not deviate and tell the truth or deny it... I take that back because ultimately you sink your own ship because it isn't commendable the ways in which you go about it.

I'm not even sure right now about how thorough our research was on the subject. All I know is it wasn't much; all she did was type in nazi on google, I believe - she loves google, and she said she came up with a lots of stuff, lots of sites, probably, but she didn't look into 'em all. I just took what I thought might be right to discuss. But I did not...I repeat...I DID NOT make up my mind about the Holocaust upon researching this to try to help you, yeah sure; my mind has been questioning it for the last half decade or so, so you aren't the only comendable person out there, now are you? Just plain audacious, I think. And it didn't help me to make up my mind about you; you are the only peron who has helped with that. Or, more to the point, your posts. And to address sticking fingers in when you don't understand; you claim that it makes no sense to you, the Holocaust, therefore you also do not understand, but still you too stuck your finger in the pot.

Quote by you, yeah sure "Jews and all other prisoners of war..." When has it ever been said that they were prisoners of war? They were just prisoners to my understanding. Prisoners that were detrimental, those that might try to destroy the 3rd reich (spelling?), but not of war. In the movie Nuremberg Hitler's 2nd hand man said the Jews were ememies of the state, but so were communists. And it seems whenever the so-called Jewish question came up to nazis in that movie, they would deviate and talk about the nazi's hatred towards the communists. It seemed a way of trying to change the subject, much as I've read in your posts, yeah sure. I mention that only in passing.

Another of your quotes: These prisoners..."Should have never been deported in the 1st place..." This is just word for word of your excuses of why you don't believe the Holocaust ever occurred. You give this in a paragraph then you mock it in another, further on down in a post, that you can't believe the Holocaust ever happened because it makes no sense.

Sure, there were other countries that deported people for racism, but we really aren't speaking about racism, now are we. We're talking about intolerance. Those who were deported in those other countries, Britian and America, they did not come to a conclusion of genocide, now did they? I've heard about camps after Pearl Habor was attacked, about the other war against Japan, but I've never heard that those people in those camps were murdered for the sake of ridding the world of their people.

Man, life defies logic and common sense. A movie called Out of the Ashes shows it very much as ill-effecting as Pianist and Schindler's List about being in Auscwitz, but if I remember correctly, it doesn't show the gas chambers, just about victims of the Holocaust. I remember there being medical experaments done in it on a gypsy for the benifit of the aryan race. It isn't very old, you should check it out. I don't know if it was directed by a Jew or not, you seem to have a biased opinion of the Jews marketing in on the crimes done to their people way back when...

When read about history (or writting seriously), making it complete and unabridged, don't come to the IMDb boards, yeah sure. I'm not going to go through hours upon hours upon days of knowledge in a post - I might take an hour to reply because my keyboard skills suck. I'm just going to try to show you what I've learned in a few paragraphs...paragraphs that probably have more of a layman approach than some epic written masterpiece.

I put that the nazis painted the gas chambers a nice color as a ruse to get those people in there thinking they were just going to take a simple, refreshing shower. I think I saw that in a movie (The Grey Zone) and it was logical. Don't tell me that you don't do the same in your posts. You do the same thing; you take what you've heard and reword it, I'm sure - as the nazis did, I'm sure, but it doesn't mean that there is any more lies than realities.

I've never ever really seen the hatred for when a person talks about the Holocaust and questions the reality of it. Other than on this site, I haven't. So, maybe you should create a thread entitled: Question the Jews...How dare you! The anti-questioning threrad. Then in that thread explain that it is dedicated to questioning anything and everything about the Holocaust and about the conspiracy that you believe the nazis and Jews were behind, because if the post-war nazis were behind it when it came to being tortured into confession, you can be sure that the Jews were probably tortured into telling their story during the Holocaust; it's the only way it makes sense, that they were told in the camps to make the German people look so strong that they had been the inducers of over 10 million deaths that were againbst humanity, right?

Now, I have wasted about two hours writting this. Wasted, meaning: you'll probably only come back with more nonsensical antagonistic ramblings about what you believe, or don't believe. You, in the end, in my opinion, are merely an antagonist. From the way you argue to those you ridicle. Why would anyone come back at another poster because they've found out that that poster likes a certain movie a certain actor likes? To be an a-hole, that's why! It only reduses your stature to those smart enough to comprehend meanness and unintelligence. That might be very mean of me to point out, but what the hell; fight fire with fire, right...especially when it doesn't kill someone?

Sorry everybody for the long post. I just feel that I should put it all out there, the only way I can.

[–] batistuta47 16 years ago

So Hoess, a middle-manager, mistaking the name of one of several dozen camps renders his entire testimony invalid? The man's deposition is enormous and detailed. The camps were in Poland, where places were called many different names. Breslau or Wroclaw? Not to mention there were a dozen different camps at Auschwitz itself. Beyond that is the fact that a place existed exactly where he said it did. Misnaming a camp that certainly exists does not disprove the camp's existence.

Simply put, you are one of the thousands of deniers who hide behind false logic to find the answer you seek for whatever motive. Your added quotes are designed to draw duh conclusions from the readers when they actually do not prove anything. It is a common and simple argumentative device used to disingenuously lead the readers.

Deniers are numerous, but for some reason they tend only to quote one another. Picking out a detail here and there does not disprove the generality. Deniers know this, of course, as they themselves will follow the same reasoning when they are expounding their ideas. There is an utter lack of documentation when it comes to these claims. The authors will put innumerable footnotes in their work, but if you bother to check them, you find they all come from a handful of sources and short bits of even those.

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

movieman-232: I can find a few valid points in your ramblings, and I can even believe that you are a real person, with fine intentions and no hidden agenda, other than your compulsive need to set things straight.

Nevertheless, your own views seem skewed by your inability to justify them - «your mind has been questioning it [the holocaust] for the last half decade or so», and «so I'm not the only comendable person out there»? Do you even know, just how ridiculous this sounds?

Maybe I'm being unfair. But then again, when a person tells you beforehand, that "a friend" has googled "nazi" for them, and that was her main research, what else can you say? Also, your posts seem like 1) your spelling is the least of your problems; 2) you are drunk or high when you write them; 3) you're confused about your "friend"'s web pages, the movies you've seen, your own beliefs and doubts, and what you think "it must be right"; d) your «keyboard skills suck». Or maybe, all of them.

And more to the point: why do you keep writing to me? It seems quite obvious, that neither of us will get his point through to the other. Give up, and move along: I'm just some ignorant, racist, pointless git, who keeps writing about things that I have no knowledge about. I hate jews, thats it - you got me. Never mind the obvious faults in the official holocaust story - I invented all of them.

Maybe it was that brilliant «ruse» the nazis did, giving the «gas chambers a nice color» - I still do wonder, though, about those painting crews with the nice colors - do you think they used hairdryers, to speed up the drying of the paint? I really need your opinion on this.

batistuta47: just how far are you willing to go, to justify your view of things? If Höß said that prisoners were «vaporized», or beaten to death with «pedal-driven brain-bashing machines», or boiled into lampshades or soap, would you find this believable, or ludicrous?

Yet, all these claims were presented at the famous Nuremberg trial, and found believable, later proved wrong. Until this day, many gullible or misinformed people, still believe that the evil nazis made soap out of humans, and that Dachau had gas chambers, just because of a famous photo of the door of a delousing chamber.

You will probably also deny, that parts of The Diary of Anne Frank might have been forged by her father, or that ballpoint pens were not available during the war.

The danger of "history repeating itself" (at least, the official, Spielberg-embelished, text book version of history) is still too strong in our minds, for some of us to care about any rational questions about it.

You insist on using the term "denier", which further helps me, and other people wonder: why are these questions, received with such contempt? Is questioning the holocaust, the same thing as questioning that the Earth is round? Or is it the question itself, that you fear?

[–] movieman-232 16 years ago

I'm sure there are valid points to everyone's ramblings. But what I want to know is this: are the words you've read of my posts ramblings to you just because you find them wrong, or do I truely write for *beep* No one else has stopped to mention my writting style or how I sound drunk with my words. I think it might just be you trying to glean something that really isn't there. Like us trying to figure out why you are a "denier." Oh, I wrote it; now I'm in for it, aren't I? That was me trying to conjure up the way in which to lighten up this conversation, you know, the way you do it by picking apart other's short comings? The way you see 'em, that is.

So, again you make fun of the way I write. Hey, like I've mentioned; I'm not writting a friggin' book here, so my writting might be terribly put together at times, being in the emotion, but I seem to be able to get a point across to some. I have gone back to read a past post of mine and I think it sounded very well stitched together. What you're talking about, I have no clue. Maybe I've read the wrong one...one being the point...?

Ridiculous is just part of life, yeah sure. But I'm far less ridiculous than you are sincere - meaning: I'm being sincere, you're being pretty ridiculous. But that is just how I see it. I think that we will just have to agree to disagree. Writting the same thing over and over again to someone I feel is incorigable is very much like seeming drunk, to you, that is. To me, it's just mind numbing. Forgive me for that incorigable bit; I couldn't pass it up.

Hey, I got an idea; why don't you supply some evidence to us that comfirms your knowledge (ramblings, maybe?)...? Can you tell where it is you've gain all of your information as to why you think it's all a conspiracy commited by the Jews? That is what it is, right, a Jewish conspiracy? I'm being very serious (something you have obvious trouble with - just an observation). You have often enough claimed it to be as such, true?

And about the documented proof as to the orders themselves, the 1st thing you mentioned in this thread; why don't you do some research and get back to us about where it is, if it even existed? Have you even gone about trying to find this for yourself? It seems that you have, but have not found it...is that possible? I, myself, have never seen the proof, but must admit, I've never looked.

Who else here have done extensive research into the matter of the so-called ugly notion of "The final solution to the Jewish question"? Is it true Hitler wouldn't even comfirm completely to his own conviction as it was told in the movie Conspiracy? Why, maybe yeah sure is right. I mean, if even Hitler wouldn't sign his initials on the blank, maybe none was initialed. Maybe they did it but didn't ducument that measly portion...? It does sound fishy, don't it?

But none of that gives reasons for jerking people around. Why is it you are such a condesending person, yeah sure? I don't think I've been as rash with you as you've been towards me, and others.

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] batistuta47 16 years ago

Again, you continue to point out details from 60 years ago to disprove evidence gathered since. Inaccuracies in realtime reporting, which is what you are citing, do not stand up to the long term study of the historical record. So the media got details concerning Dachau wrong in the year following its liberation? They also got details of the Columbine shooting incorrect. Does that mean that those two kids did not shoot up their high school?

As I said, picking through the multitudinal masses of evidence to find a handful of discrepencies amongst reporting inherently subject to human erro does not disprove the general concept. Again, it is merely a tool of the disingenuous argumenter to mislead a lazy reader. The only "fear" is that the majority of people are too stupid to realize the deceit in your argumentation, which whether you personally believe it or not is used by many to suggest illusionary history which suits their purposes. And if you are truly the cynic you presume to be, then your motives as a writer would certainly loom as your own greatest question as a reader of your posts. Questions are not a problem, people are.

It is not an issue of questioning, because the reality that a holocaust occurred and that gas chambers were involved are not credibly in doubt any more than whether the earth is round. Of course you probably would be amongst those "doubters" that believe ID deserves credit as a theory of equivalent value to evolution because evolution is still only a theory whose exact details have not been fully fleshed out.

Was Eichmann lying? Oswald Pohl? Frank? Hoess was not the only source of information, only the easiest and most well known. Which conspiracy theory requires more? The one where this handful of men arranged to murder millions or the one where they all lied about it and millions of people simply disappeared?

[–] movieman-232 16 years ago

What a good post, bastistuta47. I especially liked that end comment. No doubt "yeah sure" will be yeah suring in the not too distant future. Well, yeah sure, where'd they all get to, the mall, out to grab a pack of cigarettes - their family just couldn't believe that, right? I don't think they had malls in them days, but you could argue it.

The title to this thread might've been better like this: "It could've been very possible that over 10 million died in the Holocaust." The reason I made this thread was to tell others that it is possible that 6 million Jewish people and an extra 4 or 5 million had been put through a genocide between the time the Holocaust officially began and ended...

'39 to '49 was just when the gas chambers were 1st put into usage; '42 to '45 was the time when they used them as their main resourse, correct me if I'm wrong. But if you have learned anything from "educating yourself" - something 'yeah sure' sure doesn't seem to like or understand - like I have, you'd be willing to believe - another thing 'yeah sure' doesn't get but sure can riducle - that it begun way back when Hitler 1st grabbed hold of power, 1933 or '34.

It is possible, likely and damn believeable. You just have to put your thinking cap on (you know, something your kindergarten teacher might have told you about). Question all you like, I do, but that doesn't change history. Nor does whinning about how uncomfortable it makes you feel knowing millions died in such a short time...

Like I've mentioned: I made this thread for those who have praised others for their posts denying such a thing could occur. It was to make others question the deniers. That is what they are; if you deny something, you are a denier. But where does it get those called that? Only as far as their computer on a web page. Use your noodle; if you actually don't believe it happened, would you be here on a movie database? It's called attention getting. And that is percisly what I thought was needed at this time, reading posts that scold those who call Holocaust deniers anti-semites. Well, that's a pretty logical thing to call it. But the term needs updating. Instead of anti-semetics, maybe we could call 'em: Ad your thoughts here; it's too late for me to even try to consider what people like "yeah sure" could be classified as.

[–] batistuta47 16 years ago

Actually the gas chambers themselves were only really running for about a year and a half to two years by most accounts. Treblinka and the Einsatzgruppen were experimenting with the ideas before Wansee, but the "real" chambers didn't get up and running until after. By mid to late 1944 they were pretty much done because the Nazi's in charge of the program saw how the war was going and decided to cover it up as best as possible and used what was left of their prisoners as potential bargaining chips.

The point, however, is that they did exist beyond any doubt. Furthermore, those that died on the way and due to mistreatment in prison camps were still a part of a concerted effort on a part of the authority to eliminate them. The fact that for a relatively brief period during these 12 years that the Nazis came up with a particularly efficient way to directly knock off all of these people only makes that part of the history all the more alarming.

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

movieman-232:
I'm not English myself, but your syntax and your spelling is sometimes hard to follow. Worst of all, is your logic. For example:

«Ridiculous is just part of life, yeah sure. But I'm far less ridiculous than you are sincere - meaning: I'm being sincere, you're being pretty ridiculous.»

I have NO idea how this makes sense to you, but since you dont admit to be drunk or high, lets just - as you wisely put it - «agree to disagree», shall we.

batistuta47:
You mentioned the Columbine shooting, as an example. Lets suppose, that someone said that it never happened. The footage was all staged or cleverly edited.

Now, why would someone pull something like that? To make US schools seem less safe? Did anyone even think they were safe? And who would benefit from it? Certainly not the gun rights lobby, one of the strongest in the US. Some democrat wake-up call, maybe arranged by Michael Moore, so he could make a movie out of it?

ISuch an hoax, would go against the establishment; and whatever political or finantial agenda behind it, would be less powerful or profitable than many against it.

Now, in the opposite field: 9-11. Even without considering all the holes in the official story, how can someone think, after seeing what happened after 9-11, and all that was justified by it, that nothing is wrong in this "attack on America"?

It IS possible to deceive a large number of people, even most of the world, if you involve enough people, have enough influence and lobbies behind you, and keep telling it over and over again, pushing aside the "deniers" that question this or that. You CAN get away with almost anything. Isnt this, what almost every religion did, and still does?

Of course, these are all conspiracy theories, according to the establishment. But arent all things that contradict the establishment, conspiracies? Lets think for a moment: if it was so easy to hijack plains and cause mayhem in the US, and bombs are so easy to make, and kamikaze arab bombers come by the dozen (as they tell us), why are the americans' worst enemies... still the americans themselves? And what are the americans really doing in Afghanistan and the middle east, if not "establishing democracy", as they obviously arent?

But I digress. About the issue at hand, a few questions:

1. Eichmann's testimony: so, you're asking why would he lie about anything, after being caught and trialed in... Israel? Gee, I dunno, its like trialing Stalin in America - or George W. Bush, in Iran?

2. Pohl - ah yes, those Nuremberg "trials". He was just a small wheel, within the system. Suppose that I trial you, Batistuta, for shooting those children at Columbine. If you say how ridiculous that all sounds, I will just beat you senseless, and threaten your family. What do you do? Confess to anything, even to the 4 million victims that Hoess confessed to, while trying to make yourself look as an innocent victim of the "system"? Or what?

3. Millions of people disappeared: indeed many thousands died, but millions? Where do you get your demographics from, Hilberg? How many jews were there in the world, before 1939, and how many were there, after 1945? And how many filed complaints to get war reparations, even many years after the war?

4. And you keep talking about "accounts" - whose accounts? Tortured german prisoners, and... jews? Certainly not the same jews, that (re)founded the state of Israel, right after the war, amidst the same enemies who later they crushed, and that they still keep crushing, while portraying themselves as the ever-lasting victims of opression? And certainly not, the same jews that produce most of the (award winning!) movies and books about all of this, and that build "museums of tolerance", and that shape our minds about this, since we are in school, towards their cause?

Maybe movieman-232, can explain it better. Those evil german gas chambers in 1933-1939 - the «holocaust goes way back», you see. Way, way back.

[–] movieman-232 16 years ago

I said the Holocaust goes way back, not the gas chambers, you fool. Learn to read better. A Holocaust was on the way when Hitler became powerful, in a democratic election, I heard. But the gas chambers were accidentally happened upon in the process, if I remember right. You imply it's bad that there are museums dedicated towards peace, or tolerance? You're really mislead.

BTW, Germans weren't the only people that caused that evil; you gotta remember that people from other places in Europe weren't of German desent, some came from other countries, like Hitler was originally Austrian, but upon occupation if you were to survive, you had to become a German citizen. Except for Jews and other so-called evil people in the aryan mindset, of course.

Some are inherently evil, others go along because they are corruptable. Why it is harder to believe that millions died instead of just thousands is beyond me. It might be a small world after all, but there are so many people in this world, aren't there?

[–] batistuta47 16 years ago

You do digress, yet another ploy to avert eyes from the fact that you again can only, or at least do only, quote sources to fit your predestined queries at the expense of the greater evidence at hand. Ignorant of the history or disingenuous, it doesn't matter. The posts you make are absent of knowledge of the evidential history.

Oswald Pohl was no small wheel. He was the administrator in charge of all camps. In other words, a far bigger fish than Hoess.

Now how about these others who admitted their crimes, some of whom were never even on trial for them: Bech-Zelewski, Frank, Stangl, Eichmann, Brunner, Globocnik, Hofle, and Ohlendorf. The list is long.

These are on top of the accounts of regular soldiers involved, the non-jewish prisoners who witnessed it, the Poles who lived nearby, and of course the Jewish sonderkommandos.

As for the numbers of Jews, and lets not forget that Jews were not the only ones murdered, the Nazis kept records of people they "deported". Millions of people went to these places and never returned.

As for how far back the Nazi gas chambers go, how do you feel about the Hereditary Health Court and Action T4. Was that just a conspiracy too that all of the Nazi officials were in on to build up some solid negative PR in their own country before launching wars?

For the record, before you begin criticizing the syntax and typing skills of others you should begin editing your own work, which in large part requires a translator from idiot.

[–] movieman-232 16 years ago

Boy, batistuta47, you got me scared there for a second; I thought you were speaking to me with that "You do digress, yet another ploy..." Because I didn't back down too terribly much after "agreeing to disagree." I thought you caught me in a lie. I fined, I guess; I still didn't want to leave with him in the lead.

I agree, batistuta47, yeah sure has no idea as to what he's talking about. He may think he has quite a handle on this topic, but he's batting without a bat and the balls were just replaced with rocks. Every anti-semetic rant he brings there's so many holes in his explanations. 1st he isn't anti-Jewish, but look out! My wonder, like your's, is: Why was there a need for a "Holocaust conspiracy?" It makes no sense...but if you look at him like I do now look at him (him being yeah sure) you'd understand it completely. He is...I repeat for the hard of reading...He is an anti-semetic. No matter how much he'd like to say he isn't (or wish he isn't), he is. There's enough anti-semetic ramblings in his posts to fill a nazi sympathy jar at your local neo-nazi festival.

Edit...

I also think "yeah sure" is a nazi sympathizer; at least his way of debating this subject is how one would do it, I know from experience; an old ex friend of mine was a self confessed nazi sympathizer. Sad people these goons are.

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

Batistuta, the fact is:
- the state of Israel is taking advantage of the "holocaust", in every possible way, for over 50 years.
- USA are the main (only?) ally of Israel. Why is this?
- Israel has had nukes for decades, and now the world (read: USA) suddenly became "worried" that Iraq or Iran might have them? What is the criteria, other than hypocrisy?

About Oswald Pohl, and others, what are the facts? You talk about how nazis «kept records of people they deported» and «never returned». Indeed, these are the only records ever found - people moving from here, to there. There is absolutely no "final solution" evidence whatsoever, just "normal" death records.

But then again, there is no such thing as a "normal" death, when you are taken from your home to a concentration camp, subjected to random violence and poor conditions, and eventually die from typhus or hunger, as so many people did.

This is all documented - many people died. But official records, show no evidence whatsoever, of any "grand plan" to exterminate jews, or any other people - there are many photos of corpses, we've all seen them, but none of them was gassed, and any "gas chamber" found today, was built by the soviets - do you question this?

There were concentration camps in Germany, and in Poland. The soviets hated the germans, for very good reasons. So, its only natural that every camp within Soviet control, could not be verified. Its all propaganda. Katyn, and so on.

Soviets built the "gas chambers" shown today, in Auschwitz/Birkenau. Somehow, we all pretend to ignore this, and we all take this for real, while overlooking the real issues - what really happened? How could it happen? And what is happening today? And why is Israel still - and always - the victim?

For the record, thanks for the eye-opener, batistuta47. You also «quote sources to fit your predestined queries», but what the hell: at least, yours are politically correct, and even syntactically correct. Maybe you can be Movieman-232's pal, after all: his persistence and your self-righteousness, can go a long way.

[–] movieman-232 16 years ago

Well, let's see those documents that prove the gas chambers at Auschwitz were Russian made and tell us also why they needed to build those gas chambers, yeah sure. And while we're at it, why not also tell us why the Russians were mad at Germany, for breaking laws of war, maybe? But where's your proof that the Soviets are responsible for the gas chambers in that camp? Are they also responsible for the other gas chambers, like at Treblinka? You never show us your sources. I've asked, I've asked and I've think I've asked, but you don't seem to read my questions and answer 'em, only make fun of them, which shows just what type of a person you are; not a very kindly man, rude and obnoxious. Web pages? Where do we find all of this useful information as you've learn it. Please, give it or just get out, because you are in no way heping here, only dictating what you believe is fact when you show no evidence, no helpful means of knowledge. You don't even have any, do you? All you've been posting is from your imagination, what you've decided for yourself, or one of your anti-semetic pals have been teaching you propaganda to preach. If not, then give a link, try to make it mouse clickable. Or a book.

[–] achai85-1 16 years ago

More or less, what differences does it make? It's obvious they try to kill them all, what more could you ask? With the high standards of Nazi idealogy and racial superiority I would have doubt it would ended with the Jews and move on to other undesiribles red heads, fat people, dwarfs etc. etc. Yeah that is an accusation but why support a system that can decide anyone's fate like that?

[–] movieman-232 16 years ago

I think they would've gone next for communists in their midst, if they had gotten done with the Jewish population.

[–] achai85-1 16 years ago

Probably sooner if they won the war in Russia not justifing what they did was any better but what could you expect? I'm sure if Adolf Hitler could genetically engineer a master race he probably would have exterminated everyone. Hell he probably was with those experiments he had Mengele do with twins in the camps.

[–] batistuta47 16 years ago

Actually, they started with communists, because no one liked them.

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

I dont want to hear that. I know my history, my dogma, and my dogma says: the germans killed 6 million jews. The grand total may add up to... hmm... 10.000.000 victims? Its just a wild guess, but what the hell - I can guess whatever I want, as long as I keep the 6-million jews figure. If I dare to touch it, everyone gets upset - and I may even go to jail.

I wonder why?
Can anyone guess?

[–] batistuta47 16 years ago

How clever and original!

You aren't locked up at the moment are you? So go ahead and keep spouting your nonsense.

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

You aren't locked up at the moment either, are you? So enjoy your freedom, because if you lived in Austria or Germany and wrote my kind of posts, you would certainly be locked up now.

So go ahead and keep spouting your nonsense.

And - if you have a moment - do think about why other people go to jail just for expressing their thoughts, whenever they contradict the official holocaust dogma.

If I say the Earth is flat - I'm just silly. If I question the official holocaust story, I go to jail.

I wonder why?
Can you guess?

[–] life4all 16 years ago

It's illegal to investigate the holocaust? But why?

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

The number of deaths will probably never be reduced, especially the number of jews, because the official number is already too hard to explain, and too many survivors came out to claim their war reparations. This is an obvious hoax.

If you take a look at the number of jews before the war, and the number of jews that claimed war reparations and so on, you will notice that the holocaust official numbers are simply NOT possible. A quick link: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312579,00.html .

Over 25 BILLION dollars (official numbers) have gone from Germany to Israel, due to all of this. Let alone the US aid, and the sympathy that Israel still enjoys, while crushing their neighbours and having one of the most advanced intelligence services in the world, the Mossad.

Do you understand NOW, what this is all about? Or do I have to draw a picture for you?

[–] batistuta47 16 years ago

25 Billion dollars over 55 years to around 400,000 people. That story does nothing to support you. That number comes out to a staggering amount of $1136.36 per year per victim. WOW! That is an eye popping number isn't it! Especially when compared to the costs of say...socialized medicine, welfare or say a B2 bomber (They could have built 12 of them instead!).

When did 400000 become too many survivors? Since there were 8 to 10 million Jews in Nazi Occupied Europe, why is that figure of 400,000 a deal breaker for an estimate of 6 million? Most legitimate sources place the figure between 5 and 6 million.

Why do I get the feeling that the picture you would draw would be in big crayon with boogers as landmarks?

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] batistuta47 16 years ago

Their...

[–] aabaciu 16 years ago

Please pardon my english, i'm romanian and i'm not that used to write in english.

[–] movieman-232 16 years ago

So, claiming that the Jewish people gave birth to some really evil people throughout history isn't an anti-semetic remark? Who are these evil people the Jews gave birth to? Hitler?

I think there will never be an end to any of this. Anti-semetics will always say they aren't anti-semetic when they ask their questions demanding their answers. If you don't like Jews, aren't you anti-semetic? If you say that it's all a hoax created by the Jews, are you not an anti-semetic?

I really don't know myself where the line is drawn. All I can say is that yeah sure is right about one thing; to be put in jail for a stated thought or a question is simply facism all over again. But where is the proof that if you say anything about the Holocaust being a hoax in Germany you'll be put away? I'd like some proof on this.

Why are they put in jail? Because it could result in revolution? Could it cause another war? Hey, yeah sure, can you tell us why? I'm sure we've heard it all before, but I'd like to see your picture. Would you please draw it for us?

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

Well folks, apparently finding how much Israel has actually received so far in "war reparations", is trickier than one might think.

To avoid posting links from IHR, Zundelsite and the such, which would no doubt make batistuta47 and movieman-232 start foaming from the mouth, I think Spiegel Online is a more consensual source:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,517538,00.html

Other variably credible sources place the number "between 60 and 80 billion".

But Germany isnt Israel's only steady customer: an article from Sept. 19 1991 of the Wall Street Journal, states that «(...) between 1949 and the present, the U.S. has provided Israel with $53 billion in grants and loans». More: «The U.S. also earmarked $100 million toward expanding a joint U.S.-Israeli military stockpile. In addition, Israel is eligible to receive as much as $700 million in surplus U.S. defense equipment».

More: «This year [1991] Israel also received $650 million in supplemental economic aid for the damages and costs it incurred during the Persian Gulf War». Interesting, isnt it? Remember, this was 26 years ago... and how many of you believe, that we're really aware of the whole picture?

Finally, you might find this article interesting as well:
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?ar=95&pg=3

«Critics maintain that more of the nearly $80 billion in reparations Israel has received in compensation from Germany should have gone to the survivors. A large percentage of the money, which was paid beginning in the 1950s as Israelis struggled to build their fledgling state, went to the military and for infrastructure.»

Come on, tell me that you're surprised.

[–] batistuta47 16 years ago

Good job with sophistry yet again yeah sure. 53 billion in loans and aid in nearly years...wow, that is just amazing, especially in the light that the US grants more than 15 billion dollars in foreign aid every year. Considering that the numbers were inflated by the Cold War era, when Israel was being attacked by communist supported Arab nations, it is not in the least surprising that Israel would have recieved 53 billion. These loans have little to do with the holocaust. How about the 6-8 billion granted to Russia in the 5 years after the fall of communism?

What good would war reparations do for the survivors if their country was destroyed and the survivors killed?

I must say, the fact that you can't count to 16 speaks volumes to why you cannot understand the economics at play in this issue.

Finally, what is it exactly that you are trying to prove with these numbers. It started out that there were too many survivors for so many to have been killed. Now you seem to be suggesting that there are too few survivors and that more of them must have been killed. How they spent the money is irrelevant to whether or not the claims would be legitimate.

Again, this is a common tactic from someone arguing from a fixed ideology. Use a disingenuous argument that always ends up blaming the party you dislike, regardless of contradictions in fact. You rely on the inability of others to sort out the facts from the fictions amidst a lengthy linear, illogical argument.

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

Right. So, batistuta47, you see through my smoke screen, and this is what you have to offer:

1. US grants more than 15 billion in foreign aid every year.
2. Israel was attacked by (sic) communist supported Arab nations.
3. The [US] loans have little to do with the holocaust.
4. Russia was granted 6-8 billion after the fall of communism.
5. I cant count to 16.
6. How Israel spends the money is justifiable.
7. The illegitimacy of the [holocaust reparation] claims is yet to be proved.
8. My tactics suck, I suck, etc.
9. You dont quote your sources.
10. You dont have a punchline!

You're quite a professional poster, here in IMDB. You present arguments that only a few do understand, and that hardly go anywhere, but they do scare away a few opponents. Good for you. Also, you keep some wondering if you really know what you are talking about.

So, here we go:

1. Israel is the largest recipient of US aid in the world, since its foundation.

A few online sources:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_United_States
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/foreign_aid.html
«
Military aid
The U.S. provides military aid through many different channels. Counting the items that appear in the budget as 'Foreign Military Financing' and 'Plan Colombia', the U.S. spent approximately $4.5 billion in military aid in 2001, of which $2 billion
went to Israel, $1.3 billion went to Egypt, and $1 billion went to Colombia.
»

Please note: when you mention facts or figures, are they Jewish/politically correct, or not? I only mention the former, and basic online sources.

2. So all the arabs that attack(ed) Israel, are(were) supported by communists?? Those damn muslims, are after all commies... the self-contradicting basts. There's an eye-opener. Fortunately this is all black-and-white: the muzzy-commies on one (left) side, the righteous Israel, standing on its own, on the other (right) side. Being a freedom-lover, of course I stick with Israel.

3. That brings up the classic question: "would Israel exist without the holocaust", doesnt it? But even getting past that, we are stuck with 2 other classics: "why does Israel deserve so much support, while other (much poorer) countries dont" and "why does Israel GET so much support, being such a small country, away from the main decision centres?". Far from sight... but no, not for Israel. It always gets the goodies - for over 60 years now.

4. Quite irrelevant, since we already established that Israel is by far the largest customer of foreign aid.

5. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,...15...15...fifteeeen... damn, you're right.

6. Yes, Israel did need military and infrastructure, because they settled among ENEMIES. Now, why was that? Maybe there was no other land free at that moment? Who gave them the right to settle there, in the first place, and why? Surely you know, to whom that land belonged to, and how easily it was handed to them? And why?

And why would "holocaust blood money" be used for bombs and tanks, while "survivors" were living in such poor conditions? Who decided this, and was this explained to the countries that were paying that hard-earned money? You talk about communist-supported arab nations; what about german-jewish bullets and bombs, killing those arab basts, until this day? How many german, french, american bullets and bombs have killed those sub-human, commy, evil-doer arabs?

And who, may I ask, will pay the war reparations to the palestinians? Those poor souls, arent they? Who is innocent in all of this? For you, dear batistuta47, I'm sure that all is good in Israel, and I pity the fools that defy the great Israeli-american «freedoms», as Mr. T would put it.

7. Quite so, maybe it will never be proved? Certainly not while you're around. You still failed to demonstrate:
- why the germans would do such a tremendous thing - temporary insanity? Pure irresponsibility and disregard about future consequences? Blind trust in their winning streak? But the official holocaust happened after things were not going so great, so how do you justify such an enormous failure of judgement?
- how the germans would have done it - you know, the logistics of the whole thing - those damp lands of Poland, and how easy it was to burn thousands (millions?) of bodies in them. How no one has ever found a body, with any traces of gas poisoning. I know, I know: the germans were extra-careful, and burnt all the gassed ones. They were so careful, those germans. They even left behind, thousands of witnesses, helpful camp commanders, and so on.
- how the germans could possibly believe they could cover it up.

Again: either the germans were extremely stupid, or extremely clever. Their results dismiss the former, and the existing "proof" dismisses the latter. This hoax, proves that you just need a good marketing machine. Anything repeated over and over again, while supported by the media and enough politically correct, self-righteous supporters like yourself, can go a long way. Just look at 9/11.

8. My "tactics" seem irrelevant to me. You are yet to justify most of your arguments. You use the same tactics, that you bestow upon me: saying much, without really proving anything.

9. You dont quote your sources.

10. A punchline. How about this: Jews were discriminated for a reason (which led to many deeply unfair decisions), and they invented (or deeply exaggerated, to the extension of calculated genocide) a "holocaust". For that same reason, they still control most of the world's finance, media, and power. And people like you, are the first to expose the faults in everyone who points these obvious things out, but the last to acknowledge that something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Yeah, this was my punchline - lame, I agree.

With or without a punchline, look at the evidence, visit the camps, and think for yourself. You will always find the same haunting questions: why? how? what is really being shown to me? why the big fuss and people going to jail, if its so indisputable? and why am I asking these questions to myself, if its so much easier to believe?

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] movieman-232 16 years ago

Okay, without even reading your new remarks, yeah sure, I will tell you this: You'll wanna stop with your sarcastic words when regarding myself for now on. It's getting a bit old. No, I'm not threatening, I'm just telling you I've had about enough.

Now, I've read the rest of the posts...

May I ask you, yeah sure, were your grandparents nazis that were tried for their crimes? The reason I ask is because you sound awfully sore about all of this in a very personal way. Or, are you the grandson of an ex-Holocaust survivor who wants money the easy way instead of working for it? But why come to a movie board...?

Another thing, I can't believe your research is for the common good.

And as to who's posts go anywhere or not; that is sematics...or just poor perception on your part, yeah sure. Your rants are the ones that have gone nowhere, and have also been shot down by other posters in good debate fashion. What is very clear to myself and the others is that you are acting under a guise that is trying to act as a facade to what you really seem to be: a neo-facist, or neo-nazi.

Again, yeah sure, you present what you know with only a handful of links, but the most important one is missing; where's the proof of being jailed while questioning the Holocaust? Is this from personal experience? If so, I am very sorry for that... But the fact is, those who do go to jail for this are pretty much from the same machine as those who went along with Hitler; aggresive sorts, much like yourself, that want only to disprove something you never were around to see in order to do whatever the hell you want to do. I've not seen the real cases for these so-called "arrested for questioning of the Holocaust," so I could be wrong. But I have, until know, believed that it is possible. But whenever I see news footage these days of anyone publicly questioning the Holocaust, it's usually behind neo-nazi rants, not actual reasoning, not actual asking, but down right demanding, which I've often said is what you're doing wrong, yeah sure.

Elliot Eva, do you actually blame the Jews for their war? I mean, c'mon. They were about to suffer even greater meisry because of the aryans, who wouldn't want to put up a fight. But the difference is that when Germany tried to kill off the whole Jewish people in Europe in their war, they never even let the Jewish people say "this is war!" The nazis just imprisoned them and robbed them of everything. Is it just me or is this all just so incredible ridiculous what these guys are complaining about? It's actually sad because these kinds of people are the type that allowed it to happen in the 1st place. I don't know. Maybe we are the dumb ones, those of us who believe in these things.

Facts are, Hitler was pushed - and hard - by those around him. But since a psychpath he was, he failed to stop before going too far. And indeed he did go too far, thus he did go very insane in the latter part of WW2. No, he might not have been traditionally insane when he decided to let his pals the nazis do what they wish, but he sure wasn't of sound mind.

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

movieman-232, my sarcasm does not seem to stop you. I doubt anything I say, can stop you. Your candor and persistence, are beyond any sarcasm.

About your last rant: I dont have nazis in my family, nor am I one. And I'm not «sore»: I'm just standing my ground, voicing my opinion, common sense, and view of facts. Is it for the «common good»? If it makes people think twice, double-check facts and question themselves, yes, I do believe it serves a valid purpose.

A lot of people, you see, just take whatever is offered to them, and become fanatics without even knowing why. I dont like to think that "ignorance is bliss" - although many times, it is. But ignorance is quite a sad way to spend a life, dont you agree?

About my «posts being shot down by other posters», I assume you're talking about batistuta47? He/She's an interesting opponent, but if this was a match, I'd say I'm winning. Most of the points I've presented, are met mostly with the usual propaganda, history bits written by the winners, and Hollywood clichés.

About being jailed for questioning the holocaust, two quick links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Z%C3%BCndel
These are just Wikipedia, politically correct links. Notice that David Irving, the British author of some of the best works about Hitler and the III Reich (do read them if you have the chance, they're quite good), was in Austrian jails after 2006, when he was pushing 70, and the «Holocaust law didnt exist until 1992».

This is the official version; but in fact, the «holocaust law» exists for over 60 years now. It reads, in its (unofficial) statement: "You shall not discuss the holocaust. You shall not discuss the amount of your holocaust reparation fees. You shall not discuss anything about the state of Israel, which will be forever a victim, of the worldwide hate against jews, and in particular, of the WWII holocaust, to which you were ALL accomplices, either active or passive. And that guilt will pass on, through generations, until you realize that the holocaust IS forever, and nobody will EVER be able to discuss it».

About Elliot Eva, she just pointed out a few obvious facts: Jews (still) control most of the money and power, and they DID declare war on Germany, many years before any "holocaust" could have happened.

I think we must kill her - she is obviously anti-semitic, and too aware of reality. We do not want this kind of people alive.

[–] batistuta47 16 years ago

I do not have time to issue a thorough response at this point, but using DAvid Irving as your example undermines any credibility. The fact remains that you are not in jail and that in the vast majority of the world you would not be put in jail for discussing the holocaust, no matter how abhorrent, misinformed and/or misleading your argument may be. Your arguments are of the same ilk as those arguing intelligent design is a scientific theory. Ultimately you aren't discussing anything, you are simply espousing your doctrine.

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

1. I mentioned David Irving as the author of some valid history books, which are quoted both by holocaust "believers" and "deniers" (e.g. in the extras of the DVD of this movie, on which forum we are now), and as a 70 year old man, who was imprisoned in Austria due to the "holocaust law". In what way does this «undermine any credibility»? You think his books are all made up? Or are you saying that I made up the fact that he went to jail, for that reason?

I know... maybe it was all a publicity stunt! Ah, those cunning Austrian "holocaust deniers". They sure got us fooled.

2. «My arguments are of the same ilk as those arguing intelligent design is a scientific theory»? An interesting argument, considering that I'm the one who questions the established "truth", presenting facts, and you're the one who defends it like a dogma.

[–] batistuta47 16 years ago

1. David Irving has admitted the error of his earlier works, failed in his attempts to support his theories and to retaliate against those who have shown his errors, and furthermore traveled to the country knowing the possible outcome of his visit. That is the equivalent of Salman Rushdie making a day trip of Iran.

2. Again, a disingenuous argument. You are not supporting any points, merely pointing out flaws in the other. Again, a common tactic used in the ID "debate".

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

1. David Irving has admitted to all that he could (and would have admitted to whatever else was necessary), to get himself a lighter sentence. Being 70 years old, I'm sure you would have done differently, even being sure that the whole (politically correct) world was against you, and you'd go to jail regardless?

Your analogy with Salman Rushdie/Iran is quite interesting: think about it for a moment. Yes, you know what I mean.

2. You repeat yourself, good batistuta47. Getting tired, maybe? You also point out flaws, without supporting anything. And then again, maybe there isnt really anything to support. My point is quite proven, yours is but a tired cliché.

Take a cold shower, or something - I'm sure you can find other, more interesting, arguments. Hope springs eternal, as they say.

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

You're quite right, Squeeth - maybe we should stick to... Elie Wiesel's works? I'm sorry to bring up such a biased author, as Irving.

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] batistuta47 16 years ago

Wiesel's most famous text, Night, is a memoir and his books are not histories in general. Comparing him to Irving is simply ridiculous. Seriously, what on Earth makes you question the reminisences of a 14 year old boy as an entirely accurate history? I guess you could say that they have both written fiction, but Irving claims his to be accurate unbiased portrayals, a fact which has been proven false repeeatedly.

[–] sammy_mendel 16 years ago

Hello "yeah_sure",

I decided to return to the debate out of curiosity, and came across this strange assertion by yourself that "Jews (still) control most of the money and power".

This really is straying into anti-Semitism here, to my sadness. Why? Because anti-Semites have always asserted that Jews have all the money and power, despite all evidence to the contrary.

If one peruses the list of the fifty richest people in the world, two of them are Jews - one of whom, Roman Abramovich, spends all his "money and power" on trying to get Chelsea Football Club to win the Champion's League.

By far the richest and most powerful institution in the world is the US government, which is overwhelmingly Christian. Even among banks and the people that control them, the vast majority are Christians, such as Ken Lewis of the Bank Of America, one of Time Magazine's 100 Most Influential People, and a non-Jew.

As for the fact that "they DID declare war on Germany", all that in reality happened is that boycotts were considered, in view of the fact that Hitler's "Mein Kampf" and the views expressed therein were of concern to civilised Westerners, including, but not limited to, Jews. The source quoted by Elliot Eva is of course from a site dedicated to "spreading the truth" about the Holocaust, and not from an objective history website.

Although it takes the form of an unbiased discussion, under close inspection we note that it talks of "Jewish leaders" and "powerful international Jewish financial interests", without specifying who these were, or how they were able to influence the Bank Of England. As any student of that time period knows, the American War Veterans discussed a boycott of Nazi goods (this is on a personal basis, much like we might boycott Starbucks today, NOT an international basis) in the face of violence against Jews after Hitler turned to power in January 1933 ... but this was DROPPED. Furthermore, the American and British governments were busy at that time still lending aid ...

But, most outrageously, the article claims that this non-existent boycott "effectively fired the first shot in the Second World War". The credibility of the article completely falls to pieces under the erroneousness of such a statement.

Sir, they are not talking about a "reality" that Elliot Eva is "too aware of". They are spreading lies based on prejudice, and I beg you not to fall under the shadow of this prejudice - which I am sure is not your own.

[–] movieman-232 16 years ago

Naughty, naughty, yeah sure. Giving a name from those jailed due to questioning the Holocaust was what I asked for. Irving had apparently misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence. That wasn't simple questioning of something, it was lying.

And why would sarcasm stop anyone from posting?

I'd say that your posts are the ones that fall under the catagory of failure. Not one person here is currently following your ideals. They are, however, pretty much against your way of thinking. I'm not saying that they are against questioning anything, but they are against prejudices you are trying hard to propogate, saying that the Jews are the ones in power is conceding to your underlining beliefs that Jews are taking over, which as usual says more than you know: we must do something about it, and now!

Try giving us a link to a person who questioned the Holocaust that wasn't claimed to be a neo-nazi or hadn't tried to screw with historical sourses. I am all for understanding of truth and for questioning something that sounds amiss. But I am not for complicating things by giving bad representation. Hitler's book, as was pointed out before, was apparently full of hatred towards the Jewish people. I ask this: if you were one who knew there might be a potential genocide, wouldn't you want to go to war to sway it from happening? Not if you were for letting things go by to see how it turns out, and not if you were against your own people. I believe that if more Jews reacted differently, if they actually did go to war with Germany, maybe we wouldn't be here on this forum discussing hatred and manipulation.

[–] sammy_mendel 16 years ago

Just to set you straight on the last bit ... if Jews had actually gone to war with hitler, which is firstly ridiculous because it implie Jewry is a sort of organisation, then there would have been a lot more Krystallnachts and they would have been wiped out. That's why the idea of embargoes were dropped by the American Jewish Veterans, for fear of Nazi reprisals.

The idea that Jews could have done more or something is just untrue, basically. They tried to smuggle people out, and millions of Jews are alive today because of their efforts. It's like saying that Christians (as opposed to Christian countries) could have done more. When the most economically powerful country in Europe is under the thrall of a racist director, there's little that any small group of people can do.

[–] movieman-232 16 years ago

sammy mendel, if you are speaking directly to me there (it seems like you are anyway), I just have to set the record straight: I never said that the Jews went to war, I only stated that it wouldn't've surprised me if they would have wanted to because of what some of them knew was about to happen. But if I did, I was only trying to suggest that it wasn't any fault of their own if they had needed to. Saying that they did indeed start a war with Germany is just someone trying to dismiss what happened to them during WW2, because it is taking the patrol light from one subject to another. If they did indeed do it, good for them, but if not, where is this propaganda coming from and why is it needed?

[–] sammy_mendel 16 years ago

I didn't say you said that the Jews went to war ... you said "I believe that if more Jews reacted differently ..." which is like saying "if the Jews had done more" and I am saying that the Jews couldn't have done more, otherwise they would have provoked massacres.

I realised what you were saying, I just wanted to set the record straight. The propaganda is needed to prove that Jews started the war, hence its existence in the first place. It's essentially saying, "they started it".

[–] movieman-232 16 years ago

So, you're saying that that link was about WW2 being started by the Jews? I thought they ment that they tried to begin a war long before WW2, like when Hitler was coming into power. But they ment that the Jews caused the war caused by Hitler? Now, I'm a bit confused.

There's this movie called Uprising that has a group of Jews in a ghetto that start a battle with the nazis because they found out what the deportation was all about. I forgot about that one last time, but I remembered it and thought that there must've been more than a few of them that tried more than is shown in a lot of the movies.

So, these other posters want us to believe that WW2 was started by the Jews, huh? Well, I didn't actually read that far in that web page link about it so I guess I just didn't get it. You're saying it is a lie, propaganda? I'm willing to believe that. And yes, I was meaning that I think more Jews shoulda put up more of a fight, but I bet there were some that did more.

[–] Shayna_22 16 years ago

I read through most of this thread, and I find it both revolting and fascinating what you guys are all discussing.

In regards to the first 3 pages- If you want solid proof of how people were killed in the Holocaust, give a call to the German government. It's required now that they tell you everything you want to know about someone who you think died then.

For example-
My grandmother is a Holocaust survivor. Her mother and sister were not so fortunate. I don't know what happened to them, but after my grandmother passes away my mother and I will be calling and we'll ask them what happened to Regina and Rosa, and they'll tell us. They're required to tell you the name, date of birth, family members, date of death, valuable possessions confiscated, and how this person died.

[–] movieman-232 16 years ago

Yeah, it is a revolting thing to discuss, but I think it is a part of history that should be discussed. Maybe that's just me, though...?

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

sammy_mendel,
I'm afraid that my assertions will inevitably lead to "anti-semitism", because anti-semitism, in our time, seems to be everything that does not conform to the FDL standards, or have a "pro-jewish" stamp.

I DO believe that today's media and money IS mainly controlled by jews, who act as a group, and protect their own interests.

I DO believe that Israel did get, and still gets, a lot of money, influence and other benefits out of this, and that there is a strong jewish lobby in the US, and in other countries, of which the FDL is just the tip of the iceberg.

As a student of any time period, with no bias, how do you explain the general opinion against jews, apart from religious reasons? How do you explain the existence of Israel, amidst arab nations, for over 60 years now? Why do we have 1000 movies telling us how and why jews are the victims, but not one single hollywood production about the point of view of the other side?

movieman-232: I gave you an example, of a 70 year old man (Irving), who was put in jail because of the "holocaust law". Whatever "historical evidence" he "misrepresented and/or manipulated", he went to jail because of the holocaust law! Nothing else. And there are other people in jail, just because of that law.

Shayna_22: you will realize that the German government can NOT account for 6 million victims, or anywhere near it.

May I remind, my posts that are yet to receive a valid reply: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0346293/board/nest/85338113?p=6 . Even if you accept the official version (as you accept god, with no evidence), do take a good look, at what Israel has got, and still gets, from all of this.

Regards.

[–] LachieD 16 years ago

Why are you talking with this anti-semite? His sick. Sick of illogical fear of Jews who, according to him, have to be stopped or they'll take over the world or whatever. Like they are some tight cult or the alien race from Body Snatchers. Shees. I truly fail to comprehend where this fear comes from.

Anyway, yeah sure will of course claim that Jews have to be stopped by "human means" and whatnot, unaware or not that any means to reduce the human rights of any race or nation are a great crime in the first place, and also most likely lead to the extermination of the same.

It’s quite ironic that most people who deny Holocaust really are promoting its repeating in one way or the other.

[–] yeah_sure 16 years ago

LachieD, you may want to want look up, why German and Polish "normal" citizens, didnt think jews were so great.

Look really hard: why were jews the "enemy", even for people that didnt like the nazi regime? Was there a reason for this, even without religion? Is there a reason, even now?

Its quite ironic, that people like you talk about the "Holocaust" and promoting hatred, while promoting your own agenda, and propaganda against anyone who doesnt agree with you.

[–] movieman-232 16 years ago

There is no reason or point for anti-sematism, yeah sure. It just is, as we all here can very well attest to, because let's face it, you have no respect for them, it's written all over your posts. Even though you claim to be anti-semetic-free, you still are very much an anti-semetic for the very reasons you have stated; anyone who does believe the Jews are responsible for the world's economy, or taking it all, are painting the picture in prejudiced colors. Even though it isn't right, it is so. It seems that some people just can't take responsibility. Hitler just saw that a few, a very few, were doing things that weren't moral, which in the end, everyone does. If he would have had a conscience, he would've seen that the Jews weren't his problem, getting a life was. But to him, in order to get a life, he needed to take others live's. Just as soon as you can stop blaming another person for your troubles, the sooner you'll be able to enjoy life.

Questioning something is, as I've said, very much fine, but when you started blaming a group for something, you've entered the so-called racial card, though it is merely a prejudice, and your opinion became moot. No matter how many times you try to candy coat something, yeah sure, it doesn't take away the bad taste that lies in the middle; your heart, which you seem to have none when discussing the Jews, hence you are an anti-semetic. Anyone with an iota of hatred towards Jews, is in that catagory. Not fair? Deal with it! You are one. Look at this way: sometimes you need to take a look outside of yourself to be able to properly judge yourself, and see what we here see.

But, just to continue on this thread, let's look at something that you seem not to notice in your own rantings, yeah sure: When you say them evil Germans, you are contradicting your own ideals, trying to press the point that not all Germans were nazis. But you are blaming a whole nation of Jews for the world's troubles insisting that you believe it's all the Jew's fault. Therefore, you are a hypocrite. And an anti-semetic hypocrite to boot. You "believe" the Jews are all evil because they've got all the money and current power. Where isn't there any hatred in that, now that that candy-coat is gone? Evil Germans is the same as saying those Jews. Or am I assuming that you are generalizing every Jew as this malingnat force that's robbing the world of its economy? That's a pretty sick thing to think, don't you think? Probably not, because you seem against the evidence that you may be consumately wrong.

Uh-oh, you actually used that word: "believe." I thought you were completely against that word. I DO believe... weren't those your words? And how can you parade so candidly with that false facade?

yeah sure, I asked you to give me information about someone questioning the Holocaust...but you fail to admit that if a man bent on an anti-semetic journey such as this Irving, then the point is lost. And yes, yeah sure, my point is that if someone without hatred towards Jews has been inprisoned, then you are going home with the gold star. But since you gave us a man that has changed facts in books dealing directly with the Holocaust, then he is a moot example, because, hey, he might've been doing what I think you are doing; demanding something that is clearly only your's if you are nice - which you AREN'T. Give me the article on a person who is someone who is not an anti-semite, who questioned the Holocaust, and we'll talk. You are very ignorant (dare I say) thinking I ment that just anyone can make the grade. That wipes your point completely off the board. And if you are willing to give me that 2nd name without resorting to only giving part of the name, that'd be great; you see, I tried both names, but only that Irving had something on the web.

[–] corturia2 16 years ago

man i never get tried of people who somehow turn one of the most horrific events in 20th century history around and try to make some lame assed point out of it,people with anti-jew sintiments or people who just plain want to argue the facts can do so,but the evidence of what happend is vast and well documnted,are the numbers correct of thos who died,of course not because not even the ss commanders could keep track of the ammount of people(and lets start calling them people not jews!) that the gun toting son of a bitch ss troopers were topping off at will 6 million is an extremley conservative estimate because the nazis were topping people who werent even jews,only looked jewish,had a jewish histroy a few generations back in there family,the list goes on and on,the handicap and insane were not sterelised they were killed out right with cionide and other posions,it began as program action t4.it was state LAW! in nazi germany that these people had to be put to death under the race hygeine laws,there was public displeasure at this so they officially stopped in 1941,but secretley it still went on,it was from this and other similar programs that they refined the final solution for the jewish peple developing faster more efficient ways to kill people,they devised plans that would lead to 60,000 jewish people a day being murdered in camps and insinirated,in the first year they estimated they could kill 21 million! this is documented fact! recorded by the nazis themselves and retreived after the war,accounts from ss officers also confirmed the scale of the murder,video footage shows the total scale of what the allies found when they liberated aushwitz and bercanau! the footage should be shown in schools through out the world and burned into childrens memorys then maybe then wed all stop killing each other,you argue the facts,do you think the millions that died care? do they care if its a million or so out! and to turn round and slate the israel people for defending them selves
after what the world did to them,get a grip of your horses

[–] movieman-195 16 years ago

You're very right about calling them people, not just Jews. But you seem to contradict that which you have been steadfast in opinion about, that is you stated facts as well, but seem to condemn others even mentioning them, the out right attestment to the facts by presenting your own. There was sterilization, but later they decided to just do away with them instead of giving them a mediocre chance. People like "yeah sure" will never understand the weight to this period and crime, because he seems to have no morale code, no empathy towards his fellow humans. That's my observation, which might be false, but until his views become a bit more grounded in reality (as well as his ego), we'll be (dis)graced by his apathetic presence, trying to condemn a grouped religion through BSing all along the way.

Here's a strange fact of German law from long before the nazis that actually takes "yeah sure's" sarcastic remarks to make them flesh whenever he says those evil Germans:

"Before 1536, those accused of a crime in Germany would be tried even if they had died while awaiting trial. In these cases, the deceased would be carried into the courtroom, where the corpse would be represented by a lawyer."

Now, if that doesn't reek of evil, I'm not sure what does. My source in Rue Morgue magazine from Canada. I think that Germans have always been an odd lot. But so have the rest of the world's denizens - especially the meglomaniacal "yeah sure" - but in different ways.

[–] francescodarcangeli-1 16 years ago

*Look really hard: why were jews the "enemy", even for people that didnt like the nazi regime? Was there a reason for this, even without religion? Is there a reason, even now? *

So the fact that even normal citizens didn't like Jews means...what?
Jewish communities in Germany and Poland were rather secretive and didn't mix with the rest of the population, for cultural and religious reasons. This dates back to centuries before and to a series of prejudices and myths (deicide etc.).

A lot of people didn't like blacks, or Chinese, or Gypsies (Roma) either, for a series of similar bulls**t-based.

Italians were mistrusted, hated and even lynched in the USA in the early 20th century because they too stuck together, had problems learning the language and were, well, DIFFERENT from your typical American (WASPS but also people of Irish or North European descent)

The word "barbarian", with all his negative connotations, originally in ancient Greek simply meant "foreigner" and was a derogatory word because to a Greek foreigners (like Romans, for example) spoke an unintelligible, primitive language.
Xenophoby and prejudices against everyone who is different and doesn't blend in is as old as man

I'll tell you one thing, Yeah Sure: I too do not like Israel's foreign policy, its repeated violations of UN regulations, the fact that it has nuclear weapons, that it is anything but a democratic states which carries out a methodical genocide every day.
And certainly is true that Israel is heavily funded by the US.
I admit that there might be some overestimate of the Holocaust figures, that has always happened. It may as well have happened with WWI, the Stalinist purges and so on.

You say (and others also claim it) that Israel wouldn't have been established without the Holocaust. We cannot know this for sure. Even if the figures aren't accurate, you too admit that "thousands" have died and certainly concentration camps for jews existed. I think Israel would have been established even if there were less deaths. That the nazis were anti-semite and killed a lot of jews is beyond doubt. So maybe it's not 6 million, but that wouldn't have changed anything. Just my 2 cents, of course.

(FTR: in WWI 80 million people died, so killing millions is not that difficult in wars. Please remember that medicine was less advanced in these days, people were poorer and in worse health conditions and people died of diseases that no longer exist today)

And yes, it is true that in Hollywood movies about the Holocaust Jews seem the only victims, while in truth the Nazis killed a lot of other people too. But that, frankly, doesn't bother me a bit.
No, there is no Nazi-sided movie, but that is hardly because of the alleged Jewish Occult Rulers.
It's because nobody except for some neonazis would watch it (why should we? 6 millions aside, the Nazis were a bunch of xenophobe, bestial, bigoted ass**les, whose ferocity and world-domination ambitions have torn Europe in two). And Hollywood film-makers, Jew, Christian or otherwise are interested in only one thing: Money.
Such a movie won't cash a buck. So why bother?