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The truth about LDS Missionaries and homosexuality

posted 15 years ago by shinobicat5
52 replies | jump to latest

I, myself, am a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I've never seen this movie, but the truth is that less than 2% of Mormon missionaries ever turn gay, and 80% of those 2% are already "closet gays." I'm not gonna bash on this movie because it doesn't do anything to speak against the church or its beliefs. It is actually based off of some truth. That being said, this movie is overdramatising a very small thing. However, from reading the plot synopsis, everything that happened to that elder, would've happened in real life, as far as how the church would take, just probably a bit less harsh, depending on his the personalities of his home leadership. I'm probably not gonna see this movie, but just keep in mind, this is NOT something that happens a lot, or even enough to mention. The LDS church is not just another religion, and it kinda seems like this movie is taking a stab at it. I don't see why it couldn't have been Jehovah's Witness missionary. This kind of thing happens far more often in that religion than it does in this one.

[–] DSTgar 15 years ago

OK, let's run the numbers:
13.4 million LDS members in the world (source: Wikipedia)
7.2 million male LDS members, theoretically eligible for serving mission
0.2 million, approximately, homosexual men among those (using a fairly conservative 3%, vs. your 2%)

So it's o.k. to mistreat 200,000 sons of God (members of your family)? (and likewise the 200,000 homosexual women) Is this overdramatising a "very small thing?" Not in my book.

Sure, the same sort of thing happens in JW and Nazarene and other churches. But I think that the LDS church is unique in the "eternal family" concept that gets held over the heads of its gay sons and daughters.

Plus, it's a movie after all, and everyone knows what an LDS missionary is. Kind of an icon.

And by the way, you don't "turn" gay. The way I like to word it, you are created (might as well say "born") with your sexuality wired in. Then you have to decide how you live with that fact. If you live the truth, you're gay. If you live a lie, you're miserable. Coming out made me truly gay!

Not garnished? Not finished!

[–] katie_smile82 15 years ago

Well because it is not an accepted part of the LDS church, there are MANY closeted gays that would not be accepted into society if they came out with what they really are. I myself know very well the culture in the state of Utah and I know many men and boys that are gay and cannot tell anyone or they will be shunned by their families and everyone they know.

[–] elderesek 14 years ago

Wow! By that logic, we should think that (given your opinion) that sexual orientation is "wired in" from the begining, then it's some evolutive change that eventually will grant two males to biologically rise a child. That way, Mormons are a lie because you are gay...

Now, being serious, I think the "very small thing" the other guy was referring to is that, given all the ways a person can sin (therefore, not living according to what Jesus wants them to do and be to become part of the "eternal family", according to mormon beliefs), homosexuality is far from being the biggest problem of all. It's not that everyday a young man goes to his bishop saying "I feel atracted to my priesthood quorum president", as your number counting is trying to depict.

I DO know a former Mormon missionary who had to go home, not because the had "temptations" (even we "straight" guys and girls have them while serving), but because he sexually aproached someone. He had the same repentance process a "straight" missionary would have had in the same position. The same process anyone would have if they sin in any other way according to Mormon beliefs, which I'm not forcing you to belive in. In the other hand, I once knew a woman who had a lesbian inclination, but she was active in the Church just like any other. She just TOOK THE DECISION of not becoming a sexually active lesbian. Just the same way another friend of mine chose not to drink liquor anymore. She was happy, not miserable. I respect your position and your way of life, but c'mon! Not everybody is like you! In my opinion, nobody is born gay as nobody is born alcoholic - MAYBE we all are born with diferent things that incline us to a particular path, but our genes do not determinate our destiny.

Be tolerant. This film shows an extremely unlikely situation and turns out to be insulting to others... I'm sure you don't like films where gay people are the comic relief. If everybody knows what a LDS missionary is, as an icon as you mentioned, it's quite interesting to see an aproach only an equally extremely portion of the globe would fully understand, in this case, "Latter Days", targeted to uncloseted former Mormon missionaries.

"Money is always important because money is a by-product of success." - Mel Brooks

[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] elderesek 14 years ago

Are you saying that a human being can't choose his own lifestyle? Which attemps so damaging did I mention beside will? Is human will "very damaging" for everybody? Note that I never claimed that it could or should work for everybody. Nor I'm talking just about sexual preferences. The pursuit for hapinness is different from one to another, but I don't think that a genetic condition forces a person to be defined by that condition, and only one way to be happy. Stable sexual life is a very important thing, I'm fully aware of it, but it's not the pivotal factor a human being has to define in his or her life to be happy. I've studied psychology and I know what I'm talking about (I should clarify that I don't share Freud's theories, I belong to a Jung way of thinkers). That's modern research too. You are happy because you've chosen the best way you could find happiness in your position, are you? Is it hard to believe others have chosen different in different situations other than yours and are happy to?

If going against genetic or birth conditions is very damaging (and you are claiming homosexuality is one of them for sure), then cleptomaniacs are happy only while robbing, or Huntington Desease patiens are happy only when dying on the desease, or Alzheimer patiens are in bliss because they have no other way to live on, or just because a person was born unable to distinguish between the faces of known people and unknowns, that person is miserable.

I said "MY OPINION", because that's what I can say from what I know firsthand, not read about or scientifically researched on. I'm sure you know people who were/are struggling with themselves in some way or another (NOT just homosexuality) and are miserable as you said earlier, but I'm sure you also know people who chose/are choosing to live in a diferent way they "were born", and they are happy. And viceversa too. That's human condition. At least for the human species I belong. I don't know if you, wherever you live, are that different...

Believe me, I fully respect your way of life, but I also want exactly the same respect for those who are not like you, nothing more.

"Money is always important because money is a by-product of success." - Mel Brooks

[–] ollie501 15 years ago

The LDS church is not just another religion

What would you call it then? That is EXACTLY what it is!

I've never seen this movie

Then you have absolutely no right to make a judgement on something you know nothing about. Just because your religion happens to be "in the firing line", so to speak, you feel personally aggrieved? Watch the film and then opine.

less than 2% of Mormon missionaries ever turn gay

Then they are unique in their ability to "turn gay". One doesn't "turn" gay, any more than a white person suddenly turns black.

I don't see why it couldn't have been Jehovah's Witness missionary

And why is their religion any difference to yours? What gives yours an exclusive right not to be the subject of a film, aside from the fact that it IS your religion. Is that a case of "have a go at someone else's beliefs, but not mine"?

[–] jiminycricket-5 15 years ago

Come on guys, take it easy. Given, passing judgment about a movie you haven't seen is probably not the best way to go, and but I don't think shinobi meant some of those things the way you took 'em. This is how I read his post:

"If this kind of abuse doesn't happen in the LDS community as much as it happens in the JW community or other church communities, then why are we being singled out?"

The doctrine of Eternal Families is hardly an excuse. The answer is that the movie is, as I understand it, loosely based on the ex-Mormon author's own experiences.

Also, I'm sure shinobi wasn't saying it's okay to mistreat people or to sweep such mistreatment under the rug. His point was clearly that the mistreatment described in the film synopsis is very rare in the LDS community.

Of the 7.2 million male members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, only those between the ages of 19 and 25 are eligible to serve missions. In recent history, the average number of missionaries in the field at any given time is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 55,000. That number includes female missionaries, don't know what the male/female split looks like. Males spend 2 years in the field, females 18 months. So based on historical statistics (and going on your 3%), you're talking about something like 1600 missionaries with same-sex attraction every couple of years. Shinobi is saying, and I would tend to agree, that of those 1600, probably very few have experiences anywhere near as bad as the ones depicted in the film. And I would extend that statement to all same-sex attracted individuals in the general membership of the church. It isn't negligible, but it's a small number.

Jiminy Cricket

[–] katie_smile82 15 years ago

If this movie is not taking a stab at The Church,then it should not matter whether or not it is an LDS missionary or a Jehovah's witness missionary. I too am a member of the LDS church and I took no offense to this movie. I think that this film had a great message that was not an anti-Mormon one. Also, because of the common misconceptions about Mormonism, I feel that it would be easier to have made the character a Mormon missionary because people most likely know more about the LDS church than that of a Jehovah's Witness, due to the publicity that The Church gets.

[–] sean1234 15 years ago

The fact that it DOES happen at all is sad enough.

A homosexual with power... that's scary.

[–] ilolsens 15 years ago

Ok, I myself an LDS and I don't think all the hostility here is necessary. I have not seen the movie, but I was interested in it when I saw it at BlockBuster. It is an interesting story, and very real, although probably a little overdramtic, like most movies. I myself grew up questioning my sexuality and my faith as well because I thought I might be gay. I had 3 different occasions where I had some kind of sexual act with another male, and became very distant from the Church itself. After a while, I went into counseling at a secular health center and after working through my thoughts and feeling realized I wasn't gay, and I kind of already knew this, because I've been attracted to women. Anyways long story short, I have become very active in the Church and am planning on going on a mission within the next year. I'm 21 and I'm not going on a mission just to "please my family" but because this Church of Jesus Christ has blessed me so much in my life and want other people to have that blessing.

I empathize for people who struggle with their sexuality and beliefs and get shunned away from religion when they come out as Gay. I think most Christians should accept anyone, no matter their way of life, as I know this is what Jesus would do and what the Bible and Book of Mormon teaches. No one has all the answers but I believe in God, and I think Gays shouldn't get so defensive over other peoples beliefs that are contrary to their own.

[–] jeffwcos 15 years ago

Hmmm... I didn't realize that something had to "happen a lot" in order to make a movie out of it. Someone really should have mentioned that to James Cameron before he made Titanic... "C'mon Jim, it was just one boat! It only sank once! Is that really worth making a movie about?"

As has been mentioned, the movie is based off of the write/director's own experience. If you don't like it, sorry, doesn't make it any less real.

As a member of the LDS Church, for you to call it a "very small thing" infuriates me. You have no idea of that which you speak as demonstrated by your "turn gay" comment. Look around your ward on Sunday... chances are that one of the youth is struggling with this. He harbors intense self-loathing because of all that he has been taught. There is a good probability that he has or will contemplate suicide.

Be part of the solution and accept your homosexual brothers and sisters for who they are and how they were created by God.

Or, you could just keep spreading lies like this: "This kind of thing happens far more often in that religion than it does in this one."

[–] Alexander-addict 15 years ago

"the truth is that less than 2% of Mormon missionaries ever turn gay, and 80% of those 2% are already 'closet gays.'"

That has got to be the most hilarious thing I've read in weeks.

[–] kbroflovski 15 years ago

Overdamatising? You say yourself that this movie holds truth, and that what happened to Aaron would have happened in real life... Tell me, does that include the nazi camp scene where he goes through shock "therapies" and other tortures?

Let me tell you something. I promise that the nose of my 5,000 pound minivan at 100 miles an hour awaits anyone I may come across who partakes issuing that kind of vile punishment.

Now, to chime in with everyone else- NO ONE. TURNS. GAY. Alright? Get that through your skull right now.

I suppose just after seeing this movie wasn't the best time to post on the film's message board, but you just really pissed me off.

[–] SkaterDave 15 years ago

Shinobi, the reason this movie is about the Morman religion is because the person who wrote it was a Morman and is gay. It wouldn't have made alot of sense for him to write about a different church if he is basing the story on his personal experiences. And as someone else said, if you haven't seen the movie you're coming from a place of ignorance and assumptions on the topic.

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] DSTgar 15 years ago

Maybe the heterosexual relationship was bad because one of the partners wasn't really heterosexual? Do you climb into the head of every person you meet to figure out what makes them tick?

Sexuality is not a black and white issue: there is a range (call it the Kinsey scale if you wish), based not only on physical experiences but also emotional experiences.

So maybe people who "turn gay" (your words) were just somewhere in the middle to start with. Unless they're going to tell me the whole story, I'm not going to know.

For an analogy, take someone who learned to write with his right hand because that is the way it was taught. Maybe that person will throw a football with his left hand, maybe not. Then at some age he breaks his right wrist and learns to write with his left hand, and realizes it's much easier for him to get his thoughts down on paper that way. What a revelation that would be! So was he left-handed all along?

Because of social imprinting, things we learn in youth can last a long time, even things that we learn that are wrong for us. As an example (but NOT a related analogy), children who grow up witnessing spousal abuse are more likely to abuse their spouses. If our society evolves to the point where truly, as you say, "People should be able to love who they want without persecution," then kids will realize earlier on what their sexual preference is, and what it means to them, so you won't have adults "turning gay" when they finally figure out that heterosexual relationships aren't going to work for them.

Not garnished? Not finished!

[–] SkaterDave 15 years ago

[ So you are telling me that the stories you hear of a male or a female went through a really bad breakup where the significant other really hurt them emotionally and/or physically and they decide to date a person of the same sex and stick with it, didn't turn gay or lesbian? Then what do you call it? ]

Actually I've never heard a story like that and I've been out and about many years now. Of all the people I've met who were married or in a relationship then took up having relations with th same sex not one of them ever said it was because their opposite sex partner hurt them so they decided the same sex would be better. Almost all however did say that somewhere down inside they always felt something wasn't right with them having relations with the opposite sex and something finally happened to make them realize they always had those feelings. Soory but the whole ide of..my wife/girlfriend hurt me so I'm going with men from now on makes absolutely no sense. I myself have on more then one occasion been the catalyst for a guy crossing over but the guys never said they were doing so becxause their opposite sex partner hurt them.

[ The whole point I am trying to make here is that not everyone that is gay or lesbian was born that way. ]

Yeah, they are.

[–] DSTgar 15 years ago

Dave must have a houseful of toasters. (or is he too young to get that joke?)

Not garnished? Not finished!

[–] SkaterDave 15 years ago

No, I'm actually pretty old but I still don't get it.

[–] hadmatter 14 years ago

I saw that on the ellen degeneres

I eat god for breakfast.

[–] sarah_eldridge79 15 years ago

(So you are telling me that the stories you hear of a male or a female went through a really bad breakup where the significant other really hurt them emotionally and/or physically and they decide to date a person of the same sex and stick with it, didn't turn gay or lesbian? Then what do you call it?)

I'm straight - I need to say that at the outset because I don't want to imply that I know anything about what it is actually like to be homosexual. I do not. What I do know however (as a friend of many who are homosexual and as a social worker who has worked with people as they are in the process of understanding their sexuality) is that this argument about them being "really hurt" (or even "abused" you may say) doesn't really have any scientific evidence. Granted there are *some* who explore relationships with people of the same sex after an abusive heterosexual relationship, however, those who do often quickly return to heterosexual relationships. I've worked with a few abused women who are now lesbian, and none of them would say that they "turned gay" after the abuse but that they found freedom in discovering who they really were through their ordeal. Many of them would say they got into a bad relationship because they (mostly subconsciously) were lesbians trying to do the "right" thing by family or society or whatever and live a straight life. Arguing that people "turn gay" because of hurt or abuse doesn't really make sense. I mean, my sister was in an abusive relationship for 10 years, and when it was over, she remained single before finding a lovely man who didn't abuse her - the thought of finding a woman never crossed her mind - because she's not gay, she's heterosexual. Many of my clients would say the same.

So I have to agree with those who argued against your comment - I think you might realize you are gay after a bad relationship but you certainly don't "turn gay" because of it.

As for the initial statement about the LDS missionaries - LDS or not - this happens within most churches to varying degrees. And it breaks my heart. Homophobia and shunning people from a church is not Christ-like behaviour. And the Church should be ashamed of itself. And those of us Christians (yes I'm a straight social worker Christian! lol) who know it's wrong and do nothing to stand up for our homosexual brothers and sisters and friends and heck strangers at that contribute to the problem of homophobia. This movie should challenge Christians no matter what their denomination may be - LDS, Jehovah's witness, pentecostal, catholic, protestant whatever - the point of the movie was to make us realize our attitudes must change.

"People Shouldn't be Bought and Sold - Stop the Traffik"

[–] reziztor 14 years ago

wierd how westerners sometimes treat gay people like a race.

[–] elderesek 14 years ago

So true that even becomes funny...

"Money is always important because money is a by-product of success." - Mel Brooks