> Resources for sensitive, possibly gay oriented rural farm boys are grim to say the least....point of the movie.
No doubt. But, that's just the lot some people are dealt in life. Had he thrown himself into farmwork for a few years, at least he'd have some muscles and maybe the other kids who might pick on him would at least consider that he might do some damage to them before he goes down.
> How many times have you seen that work out in real life?
Not very many times. But, the alternate method was shown to be rather disasterous.
> As we discussed here many times, Duncan did NOT want or allow the rape.
He probably didn't want it, but he did allow it. He may have felt that he didn't have a choice, but still, anyone that objects badly enough to something won't go down without a fight, no pun intended. At some level, he allowed it.
> Given that Perry might stay in that vicinity for the rest of his life(knowing that deep down he has a gay 'seed'), he can't help but have a dismal prospect of his own future through denial.
Nope. It will not be pretty, that's for sure.
> Given that Perry might stay in that vicinity for the rest of his life(knowing that deep down he has a gay 'seed'), he can't help but have a dismal prospect of his own future through denial.
But, there is a big difference. Weapons are physical items that can be searched for and confiscated. If someone is caught with a weapon, there can be no denying that he is holding a weaon.
Bullying and teasing are much harder to quantify and prosecute. If a bully says, "Give me your lunch money," and the incident is reported, it all becomes a matter of "he said, she said." The principal, who wasn't present, ultimately makes a decision. I'd venture to say that he makes the incorrect call about 30% of the time, causing much resentment.
Historically, it has always been a mistake to make laws that regulate how people are allowed to think and what they are allowed to do. The better laws are to punish people when they harm others, after the fact.
That's usually called freedom. You are free to do whatever you want, but there will be consequences if you harm others. If you choose to harm someone and then face the punishment, that's your choice.
> I see change happening through intervention
How often do you see that working? When I was a wee child in school, if a kid complained to the teacher, the teacher would come out, scold the offender, and watch the yard for a while. But, when she finally left, the beatings would be worse than ever.
So, you enact a zero tolerance bullying policy at school and some kid gets kicked out because of it. But then, the bully cathes the victim down at the park and really beats the crap out of him. It happens.
The only real defense to bullying is to teach the kids to take care of themselves.
> That's no way to live you teen yrs, why would you perpetuate that mindset?
I notice that you didn't offer any workable solution as to how to solve Duncan's problem within this movie, even though I asked you directly.
I assume that this is because you do not have any idea what to do for Duncan. At least I suggested that he throw himself into his farmwork and build up some muscle. And, maybe he could wear farm clothes.
That is probably the saddest part of the movie. He has a father who should be teaching him to fend for himself. He should be teaching him how to handle a knife or how to box. But, the father is making no effort at all to connect with the kid.
As I see it, Duncan cannot live in this rural setting and remain the way he is. That's sad, but the movie shows what will happen to him again and again if he does not change. I'm sorry that it perpetuates the mindset, but, if he doesn't want to be the doormat all his life, that's the game he must play.
> And yet you say in the beginning of this post that you're not physically intimidating enough to stand up for a 'Duncan'. Interesting though that you think he should stand and defend himself against hell-raising, drunken redneck kids.
Well, as I've said in this post, if I were to stand up for Duncan, it would probably not do much for Duncan in the long run. I might blunt his beating today, but I won't be around everytime he is confronted by a redneck.
If he were to stand up once or twice, and maybe land one kick to the groin or punch to the nose, those kids would look elsewhere for victims the next time.
> OK, so I ask, how many 14,15,16,17 'fem acting queer' kids do you really know and work with?
Kids? None. These are adults that I know and they stand up for themselves quite well.
> It's like this dude...if you have more than others, you should share.
I do, quite regularly. But, I tend to confine my giving to those people who are going to use my gift to get themselves out of a hard place and go on to be productive. If it becomes obvious that my donations are just going to sustain the person briefly until they get into another problem, then I won't bother.
It's the other old Chinese proverb; Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats forever. If I help Duncan fend off bullies today, he'll be safe for the rest of the day. If I teach him how to fight for himself, he'll be safe for the rest of his life.
> If you recognize that people are good souls but are picked on and therefore non-confrontational like Duncan, you stand up for them.
I have only a limited amount of time on this earth. I help those who want to learn to help themselves. Those that are content to be protected by others all the time, I couldn't care less about.
--
"Music is a world within itself, with a language we all understand." - S. Wonder
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shoeihell
17 years ago
"No doubt. But, that's just the lot some people are dealt in life. Had he thrown himself into farmwork for a few years, at least he'd have some muscles and maybe the other kids who might pick on him would at least consider that he might do some damage to them before he goes down."
Just as an FYI, people who go against their own grain or force themselves to do what is against their character, do not make happy campers-teens especially. Foolish lout that I am, I believe that all children should have the right to a happy, safe childhood. It's not about character building & muscles, it's about being who you are. Look at the kids who go to art camps and schools-learning how to perform in the arts. Do you think less of those kids because they don't develop muscle and fight their way out of trouble from haters? Do you realize how hard it is for them living as a virtual stereotype because they're 'different' and yet what happiness they bring the world in the way of art & entertainment? Face it, it's a huge double standard.
"But, there is a big difference. Weapons are physical items that can be searched for and confiscated. If someone is caught with a weapon, there can be no denying that he is holding a weaon.
Bullying and teasing are much harder to quantify and prosecute. If a bully says, "Give me your lunch money," and the incident is reported, it all becomes a matter of "he said, she said." The principal, who wasn't present, ultimately makes a decision. I'd venture to say that he makes the incorrect call about 30% of the time, causing much resentment."
I never said it would be easy. Quite the contrary, it's a giant leap fwd in human behavior patterns, but it's the only way to a higher plane of existence where violence isn't 'cool' and kids don't get routinely bullied. Some schools are experimenting with this as I speak.
"How often do you see that working? When I was a wee child in school, if a kid complained to the teacher, the teacher would come out, scold the offender, and watch the yard for a while. But, when she finally left, the beatings would be worse than ever.
So, you enact a zero tolerance bullying policy at school and some kid gets kicked out because of it. But then, the bully cathes the victim down at the park and really beats the crap out of him. It happens."
It happens because there are no real significant consequences at home. The hetero father is trapped inside his own dogma prison. He wants his boy to act like 'a man' and sometimes he believes, this is exhibited in boys acting out against "weird" weaker boys. Essentially he has learned nothing from his own childhood experiences, or what he witnessed daily as a boy.
"I notice that you didn't offer any workable solution as to how to solve Duncan's problem within this movie, even though I asked you directly."
Actually I did...I said "intervention" of some sort. A school counselor, clergyman or mentor/friend. There are mentor programs all over the US in the smallest of areas. I know because I live in redneck hell while mentoring two boys. I hope I'm making a difference after all the yrs with them...at least I'm showing that a softer side to being masculine is possible.
"As I see it, Duncan cannot live in this rural setting and remain the way he is. That's sad, but the movie shows what will happen to him again and again if he does not change. I'm sorry that it perpetuates the mindset, but, if he doesn't want to be the doormat all his life, that's the game he must play."
It's not unreasonable to expect that he will have to move away, but that's not usually the case before 17/18 and even then without resources, education and support, he might have it even harder in a bigger place. 35%+ of runaway children are from GBLT issues where they've been tossed out or can find no solace at home-the numbers out there would rip the heart out of an ogre.
"Well, as I've said in this post, if I were to stand up for Duncan, it would probably not do much for Duncan in the long run. I might blunt his beating today, but I won't be around everytime he is confronted by a redneck."
You're ignoring the fact that he has no friends. Having an assortment of friends helps the "weird" kids get by, as you put it. He put all his faith/friendship in Perry and we saw where that got him. BTW, "Fishbelly White" (the short this movie was based on) has quite a different 'Perry'.
"Kids? None. These are adults that I know and they stand up for themselves quite well."
That was exactly my point. We're talking about meek "weird" kids here, not gay adults who have learned to cope with hetero haters.
"I do, quite regularly. But, I tend to confine my giving to those people who are going to use my gift to get themselves out of a hard place and go on to be productive. If it becomes obvious that my donations are just going to sustain the person briefly until they get into another problem, then I won't bother.
It's the other old Chinese proverb; Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats forever. If I help Duncan fend off bullies today, he'll be safe for the rest of the day. If I teach him how to fight for himself, he'll be safe for the rest of his life."
Helping others is not provisional or something you have to qualify individually. True, some are going to waste the 'gift'-it's sometimes symptomatic of why they are in the place that they are, drugs etc. Others are just victims because of an oppressive, hateful society. Either way, ALL people deserve the chance at some point. If nothing else, Duncan needed a friend/mentor...something other than his father. The people at his church should have recognized this after his mother died, if they really gave a damn and weren't corrupting daily the term "Christian charity". You can never be "safe" with just your fists, there's always someone out there bigger, stronger and meaner. Being "safe" should stem from the absense of violence, starting with kids.
"I have only a limited amount of time on this earth. I help those who want to learn to help themselves. Those that are content to be protected by others all the time, I couldn't care less about."
That' too heavy fisted for my tastes. Maybe it was life on the streets scratching and crawling for some dignity and shelter that causes me to think so. Or maybe I don't want anybody to have the down & out moments I've had (and seen with many other youth) if there are people willing to invest in them. I'm giving young people a chance that I never had, rather than think they just have to 'cowboy up' and suffer alone..
"...and don't call on Him to save you from your social graces and the sins you wish to waive"
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bing-57
17 years ago
> Foolish lout that I am, I believe that all children should have the right to a happy, safe childhood.
It's very nice that you believe that. But, the real world is full of harsh facts. There are millions (billions?) of kids in the USA and the world that are not safe, by any stretch of the imagination. They can't all count on shoeihell to come to their rescue every day. The only person they can ever count on is themself.
> Do you think less of those kids because they don't develop muscle and fight their way out of trouble from haters?
I do think much less of people who won't make any effort to defend themselves, whether they are artists or weightlifters or male or female.
An artist doesn't have to be helpless. There are many ways they can get in a good shot if they are confronted; throw glitter in the bully's eyes, brandish an exacto knife, or swing that saxophone case. Heck, a can of mace costs only $4.00 -- buy one and use it.
> only way to a higher plane of existence where violence isn't 'cool'
That's a long, uphill battle. First, you need to start with the media who glorify violence. Get rid of football and almost all movies. If you don't do that first, violence will always seem cool to every new generation.
But, that will take a couple of hundred years. Meanwhile, we still have the practical question of what to do with the people who are victims of violence today. Shoeihell can't protect them all all of the time.
> It happens because there are no real significant consequences at home.
Sad, but absolutely true. That is why I say that time is really the only cure. The older generations just need time to grow old and die. That's ultimately how we get change in this civilization.
Remember when blacks were slaves? Everyone who actually owned slaves has now died off and almost everyone alive would be aghast at the idea today. Those that were taught those negative values from their parents are now a small minority and, when they also die off, the concept will be almost totally gone.
Repeat that thought for woman's sufferage. And, we are in the middle of the exact same kind of gay revolution. In fifty years, most of the homophobes will have died off, leaving only a small part of the new generation with that attitude.
Meanwhile though, gays need to be able to fight their own battles.
> I know because I live in redneck hell while mentoring two boys. I hope I'm making a difference after all the yrs with them
I am quite sure that you are. Kids do remember small things for the rest of their lives. I've recently been contacted by several kids that I mentored fifteen years ago. They thanked me for being there for them. I did the same for my mentor, although he is insane now. But, that's another story.
> runaway children are from GBLT issues where they've been tossed out
Quite sad, but that is just another example of where the only solution is time. Those parents cannot be fixed and we will just have to wait until they die off.
Meanwhile, those kids who are on the street will have to fend for themselves or die. I hope they are somewhat prepared to defend themselves, because no one else will. It sucks to be on your own like that, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
> We're talking about meek "weird" kids here, not gay adults who have learned to cope with hetero haters.
And those weird kids won't survive to adulthood unless they develop some kind of defense.
> Helping others is not provisional or something you have to qualify individually.
For me, it is. I admit to being selfish that way. If I donate time or money, I want to be assured that it is being used to fix a problem and not just to put a band-aid on something that is in a hopeless downward spiral.
> Duncan needed a friend/mentor...something other than his father.
He surely did. But, as far as the movie showed, there was none available. It's quite possible that his teachers and clergymen were just as homophobic as the rest of the town. No other kids his age were shown in the movie. We never heard about aunts or uncles or cousins or grandparents in the area that he could talk to.
He was all alone, except for the chicken. Which keeps bringing me back to my point -- he needed to try to fight for himself.
> You can never be "safe" with just your fists, there's always someone out there bigger, stronger and meaner.
My point isn't that you have to be strong enough to defeat the bigger bullies, you just need to be strong or clever enough to inflict some damage before you get beaten up. That keeps the bullies from thinking you are an easy target.
Imagine going to school the next day and trying to explain how Duncan gave you a black eye. You can explain how badly you beat Duncan after that, but the other kids will still laugh at you. A bully wouldn't risk that a second time.
> I'm giving young people a chance that I never had, rather than think they just have to 'cowboy up' and suffer alone..
I've never held the position that I think that they SHOULD go it alone. I am saying that sometimes they have no choice but to go it alone, so they better be prepared.
It's great that you try to help out these kids. You seem like a nice guy.
Then again, wasn't your time on the streets what made you into who you are? If you keep these other kids from having and overcoming similiar problems, they won't grow up to be as strong as you, will they?
--
"Music is a world within itself, with a language we all understand." - S. Wonder
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shoeihell
17 years ago
"It's very nice that you believe that. But, the real world is full of harsh facts. There are millions (billions?) of kids in the USA and the world that are not safe, by any stretch of the imagination. They can't all count on shoeihell to come to their rescue every day. The only person they can ever count on is themself."
But here's the hole in that supposition; there are roughly 1500 'kids at risk' in my community. Those of us who mentor now reach almost 200 of those kids and growing. Do the math...there are no shortages of viable, potential mentors that could reach the millions of kids in the US 'at risk'. It CAN be done, so really then it becomes the issue of how much we adults are willing to invest back into our kids, who literally are the future?
"An artist doesn't have to be helpless. There are many ways they can get in a good shot if they are confronted; throw glitter in the bully's eyes, brandish an exacto knife, or swing that saxophone case. Heck, a can of mace costs only $4.00 -- buy one and use it."
LOL...I have to laugh at that one, as the "glitter" comment was so over the top-I may even have to use that in my next bully speech.
"That's a long, uphill battle. First, you need to start with the media who glorify violence. Get rid of football and almost all movies. If you don't do that first, violence will always seem cool to every new generation.
But, that will take a couple of hundred years. Meanwhile, we still have the practical question of what to do with the people who are victims of violence today. Shoeihell can't protect them all all of the time."
I'm sure you have a Chinese proverb for that if you look hard enough, Things that are healthy and just sometimes take time or seem insurmountable at present. However, I have the faith that people can do it. If I see ten people do it, then 100,000 can as well. It's the difference between settling for passable mediocrity or wanting more for the human situation.
"And those weird kids won't survive to adulthood unless they develop some kind of defense."
Many don't; they die or become 'busted'. Does that give you the perspective then to write them off like dead puppies?
"He surely did. But, as far as the movie showed, there was none available. It's quite possible that his teachers and clergymen were just as homophobic as the rest of the town. No other kids his age were shown in the movie. We never heard about aunts or uncles or cousins or grandparents in the area that he could talk to.
He was all alone, except for the chicken. Which keeps bringing me back to my point -- he needed to try to fight for himself."
The movie made no attempts to show Duncan's choices for help. It' all just supposition on our part. So what I was saying was that intervention is real, can come from a number of sources and doesn't presuppose that everyone in a small area is a thoughtless redneck-obviously I'm not and I help kids like Duncan.
"My point isn't that you have to be strong enough to defeat the bigger bullies, you just need to be strong or clever enough to inflict some damage before you get beaten up. That keeps the bullies from thinking you are an easy target."
Finally we agree on something. Being clever to avoid trouble by a bully is not always about muscles and fighting. But you presuppose that all kids are issued a handbook on how to avoid bullies. What I'm saying is that there is no dishonor in seeking help or intervention from somebody else. Kids don't always have the tools to figure everything out on their own that is healthy and safe for them in a timely, necessary fashion...that's why there are caring, responsible parents/adults.
"I've never held the position that I think that they SHOULD go it alone. I am saying that sometimes they have no choice but to go it alone, so they better be prepared.
It's great that you try to help out these kids. You seem like a nice guy."
Thank you. However, I don't think there is any kid who can't potentially be reached or should have to "go it alone". If there was better education on these issues, more itervention by responsible parties and more people willing to invest in youth rather than denigrating troubled teens or "weird' kids, we could wipe this problem out in just a generation. It's completely our choice and an open book at present that hasn't been written.
"Then again, wasn't your time on the streets what made you into who you are? If you keep these other kids from having and overcoming similiar problems, they won't grow up to be as strong as you, will they?"
That's like saying there has to be a Hitler so that we all understand how human genocide can happen. No doubt my rough yrs give me the diversity and strength to put back into youth and love them for their potential greatness. On the other hand, no, they shouldn't have to go through what I went through to become 'strong'...there are better, safer, more proven ways for sure. Until the Mormons took over Scouting and banned gay participation, it was a most excellent vehicle to make young men strong.
I'm absolutely convinced in my heart that for every troubled, "weird" kid out there, there is a corresponding adult to guide them. It's so simple really, that it's insane. We build walls for ourselves between us and kids (as a adult society), when all they want is for us to LISTEN. Sometimes all it takes to turn a kid down a healthy path is one well thought out sentence and a lot of the time, we can't even give them that.
"...and don't call on Him to save you from your social graces and the sins you wish to waive"
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bing-57
17 years ago
> But here's the hole in that supposition ... It CAN be done, so really then it becomes the issue of how much we adults are willing to invest
That's not really a hole in my theory. Even if millions of mentors can be recruited to teach the kids, it really wouldn't be their job to fight the kids' battles for them. Plus, the mentors won't always be available every single time that a bully confronts their kid.
I mean, it would be great if all the kids could have someone to talk to and who would help them work out their personal problems. But, if that personal attention doesn't include a few lessons on how to avoid trouble and deal with it if you can't avoid it, the kid will still be in trouble all of his life.
> LOL...I have to laugh at that one, as the "glitter" comment was so over the top-I may even have to use that in my next bully speech.
Feel free to. That stems from some movie I saw where the new officer at the station house was an Asian guy who, when offered a gun, made some comment that he didn't need one, since anything can be used as a weapon. The chief challenged him to use a chalk eraser as a weapon and the Asian guy proceded to beat up the chief with just the eraser.
> I'm sure you have a Chinese proverb for that if you look hard enough,
Well, them guys had a couple of thousand years to sit around and think about these kind of things. It's surprising how much of their ideas can easily be applied to modern life.
> If I see ten people do it, then 100,000 can as well. It's the difference between settling for passable mediocrity or wanting more for the human situation.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of people do settle for mediocrity. Havne't you sampled the new TV shows lately?
The fact that you get ten people to do it is great. And, maybe you can get 50. But, there is no way you can get 100,000. Just take the ten or 50 and do your best.
Unfortunately, 50 is not nearly enough to take care of 1500 people that need help. You will need to make harsh decisions to help some of them now, and not help the others.
I prefer to donate my time and money to those people that just need a little bit of help to get onto the right track. The basket cases that need more help than twenty people can give them are not my top priority.
> Does that give you the perspective then to write them off like dead puppies?
Unfortunately, that's nature for you. The strong survive and the weak get eaten up. That's just the way the world works, whether it's in the jungle, or the stock market, or the playground.
I'd be trying to nudge a few kids from the "weak" category to the "strong" one to improve their chances of surviving and then hope for the best.
> intervention is real, can come from a number of sources
Sure it can. But, the cavalry doesn't always come charging over the hill in the nick of time. Some days it is just you and your trusty rifle. Woe is you if you don't even have a rifle with which to make some small effort to defend yourself.
> But you presuppose that all kids are issued a handbook on how to avoid bullies.
Nope. Most kids do figure out on their own that keeping your head down and not being "weird" is an effective method of avoiding bullies. Others need to be told. Others never learn and get popped every day. Perry and Duncan's father made small efforts to get him to try to fit in to avoid bad attention, but that went over his head.
Yes, I realize that people shouldn't have to change to fit in and they'd have a healthier mental state if they were true to themselves. But, for many people, that's gonna include many hefty beatings. I guess it's up to each "weird" person to decide whether the physical or mental beatings are worse.
> If there was better education on these issues ... we could wipe this problem out in just a generation.
That would be mostly coincidence. As I've said, you simply have to wait for the old farts to die off and take their homophobia with them. I've met plenty of (but not all) young gays whose parents accepted the situation without any yelling or screaming. It seems that there is a much greater chance of acceptance than there was ten or twenty years ago.
> We build walls for ourselves between us and kids (as a adult society),
That is unfortunate. But, adults have adult problems (jobs, yardwork, raising their own kids) and kids have kid's problems. It is difficult to see life from the others' point of view. It takes a lot of work.
You say that the solution is simple. It is not; it is a lot of hard work. Most adults don't have the time to put in all that hard work.
It's great that you do, but I suspect that you have a large bias for getting this kind of work done. Other adults would rather save puppies or trees, according to their own bias. You can't expect them all to drop their own personal causes and rush over to support yours.
--
"Music is a world within itself, with a language we all understand." - S. Wonder
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shoeihell
17 years ago
"That's not really a hole in my theory. Even if millions of mentors can be recruited to teach the kids, it really wouldn't be their job to fight the kids' battles for them. Plus, the mentors won't always be available every single time that a bully confronts their kid.
I mean, it would be great if all the kids could have someone to talk to and who would help them work out their personal problems. But, if that personal attention doesn't include a few lessons on how to avoid trouble and deal with it if you can't avoid it, the kid will still be in trouble all of his life."
Yes, I know we can't always be there for them. But isolated kids like Duncan...if they had a mentor, they might be able to communicate their problems/fears/concerns and then with some help, be able to use some survival tools. So yes, I definitely agree these kids need some "lessons" in survival. I focus on them using their wits though, rather than their fists. I'm gonna now call it the 'glitter in the eye' tactic...lol
"Yes, I realize that people shouldn't have to change to fit in and they'd have a healthier mental state if they were true to themselves. But, for many people, that's gonna include many hefty beatings. I guess it's up to each "weird" person to decide whether the physical or mental beatings are worse."
Which bring me back again to my 'intervention' point. I can tell ya down to the last gay dude I ever met, there has always been ONE common theme. And stated always the same way; "I wish I could have had someone(adult) to talk to about my sexuality-someone I could have trusted."
" That would be mostly coincidence. As I've said, you simply have to wait for the old farts to die off and take their homophobia with them. I've met plenty of (but not all) young gays whose parents accepted the situation without any yelling or screaming. It seems that there is a much greater chance of acceptance than there was ten or twenty years ago."
It IS better 'over all' than it was even ten yrs ago. But that's not solace for the kids kicked out on the street everyday to fend for themselves because their parent(s) think they are 'queers'.
"That is unfortunate. But, adults have adult problems (jobs, yardwork, raising their own kids) and kids have kid's problems. It is difficult to see life from the others' point of view. It takes a lot of work."
Kids try to talk to us though and we don't listen, or give them any credit for being worthy of meaningful dialog.
"You say that the solution is simple. It is not; it is a lot of hard work. Most adults don't have the time to put in all that hard work.
It's great that you do, but I suspect that you have a large bias for getting this kind of work done. Other adults would rather save puppies or trees, according to their own bias. You can't expect them all to drop their own personal causes and rush over to support yours."
You know sometimes it just takes kicking back and asking yourself, 'what did I do/think at that age?'. You were a boy once, I was a boy once...why is it assumed our complete childhood memories just disappear into a vast cavern somewhere?
I have no comment on the people who put non-human causes above human causes. To me the choice is obvious...I like puppies, trees and all the beautiful things in the world as well. But my theory is that if you work hard on making kids healthy and happy, all the rest of the causes will naturally be taken care of, because those healthy kids grow up to be mentally healthy adults with hearts.
I thank you for this dialog though, because it's given me the perspective that many people think as you do about boys defending themselves. Although we don't see eye-to-eye on many points, key here is that the boys learn how to survive before their lives are broken. For what it's worth you know I will always be out in the trenches doing what I can until I draw my last breath. However I think there is a HUGE untapped resource of males and females (in this country alone), who would make excellent mentors to troubled or isolated kids like Duncan. I cant' fight mediocrity or apathy however, people have to want to help and realize the importance of such efforts.
"...and don't call on Him to save you from your social graces and the sins you wish to waive"
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bing-57
17 years ago
> Yes, I know we can't always be there for them. But isolated kids like Duncan...if they had a mentor, they might be able to communicate their problems/fears/concerns
I don't think that we've ever been in disagreement that some kids need help and that a mentor would be a great thing for them.
My point has always been that such help is not always available and these "special" kids had better be prepared to take care of themselves and avoid trouble until a mentor stumbles across them.
In the movie, Duncan's father and Perry (at first) didn't realize why Duncan was weird, but they did recognize that he was an outcast and that needed to change. They each offered ways for Duncan to fit in so that he wouldn't get picked on. In their own ways, they were trying to be kind.
> So yes, I definitely agree these kids need some "lessons" in survival. I focus on them using their wits though, rather than their fists.
That's good when it works. I'm not sure that a bully will really respect being outwitted. Most bullies are pretty dense already. They kind of expect to be outwitted.
But, if a victim punches back, that's something to be respected, in the bully's eye.
> "I wish I could have had someone(adult) to talk to about my sexuality-someone I could have trusted."
No disagreement there. Most kids, gay or straight need more adults that they can trust to give them the straight dope. In the straight world, the lack of such mentoring results in unwanted pregnancies and gang activities. It is not just a gay problem.
> Kids try to talk to us though and we don't listen, or give them any credit for being worthy of meaningful dialog.
Quite true. Later, you mention that adults should not have forgotten what it was like to be a kid. But, I might point out, that almost all adults have been routinely forgetting this for the last five or six thousand years.
Most adults look back on their youth and think, "Five years ago, I was a stupid kid who thought he knew everything and now I know better." Then then say this every five years for the rest of their life. "When I was 85, I thought I knew everything. Now I know better."
I think that's why many adults won't listen to the kids -- they were a kid once and remember all the stupid ideas they had.
> those healthy kids grow up to be mentally healthy adults with hearts.
That's a damn good philosophy. But, I think you will find that most adults are really too busy running their own lives to mentor two or five or twenty kids.
> I thank you for this dialog though
And I you.
> many people think as you do about boys defending themselves.
Of course, the best solution is to wave a magic wand and eliminate bullying forever and then everyone can live in peace and harmony. But, my magic wand is in the shop right now, so bullying will exist for the foreseeable future.
Until I get my wand back, the victims will just have to fend off the bullies, mostly on their own.
--
"Music is a world within itself, with a language we all understand." - S. Wonder
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