MovieChat Forums > Normal (2003) Discussion > What a gimmicky waste of time

What a gimmicky waste of time


I watched this movie's premier last night on HBO, and found it to be a tremendous waste of time. There were so many interesting directions this film could have gone, and it pursued none of them. At its heart, the concept of being as in love as the protagonists are is very sweet. However, rather than explore this in an interesting way, we get a movie that uses a gimmick in place of honesty. This could have been another American Beauty, but with more hope. Instead, it's more like a pilot for a bad 80's sit-com.

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I watched "Normal " last night and loved it. They treated the subject matter delicately and with honesty, no winking at the camera, no stereotyping, just truth. Wilkenson and Lange were fabulous, bringing tears to my eyes. You really felt for the both of them. This movie was about soulmates, true love. Unconditional love, love for the person, the sould, not externally with physical appearance, or what sex they are. It made me think about relationships in a new way. I highly reccomend this film, check it out.

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Like I said, I thought the spirit of the movie was very sweet and touching, just that the means of conveying it was completely unfulfilling. Why have the daughter struggle with her mother about wanting to dress like a tomboy except to drive home the movie's explicitly obvious concept? I also felt that the story sells the audience short in its ending. If you have to go with the transgender story line, why only show the pre-op struggle? It's real easy to get behind Jessica Lange because she overcomes her struggle, but unfortunately she has only faced one facet of her struggle. It just leaves so much out. The writer/director/producer puts all of her effort into pushing the tabloid aspect of transgenderism in small-town America and doesn't actually end up doing anything.

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When I decide if a movie is good or bad, I don't base it on whether I like the story or whether they told the right amount of the story, but on how well they accomplished what they attempted.

I've seen very few movies where simple moments and tiny, almost imperceptible changes were used so poignantly.

Tom Wilkinson has been a favorite of mine since "In the Bedroom" but he has outdone himself in this role. Roy's disappointment at his choices in women's attire weighed heavily on him, but that second when he tries on the earrings and his face lights up the mirror--that was powerful! It's also symbolic of the way the movie portrayed transgenderism (sp?) as not just a big issue, but the buildup of many, many tiny things.

Overall, the movie was well done--perhaps one of the best I've seen in ages.

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I also was very touched by the scene where Roy first sees himself wearing the earrings. In that very moment, you saw inside of Roy's soul and truly believed in his desire to be a woman. Tom Wilkinson was truly remarkable in that scene. The movie, overall, was NOT a "gimmicky waste of time" for me and I have watched it three times from beginning to end.

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This is a good cast wasted in a terrible movie. It is funny at times it doesn't want to be. The actors do the best they can with lines that are often embarrassing and reactions and situations set-up and false. A movie must be judged for what it is not what it could have been. BUT I would have liked this to be played by how much a family can be hurt by actions such as taken by Roy.
The best lines were, "You are a man, no woman could be this selfish." spoken by Irma. And when she first sees Roy in women's clothes, "You look like my aunt after her stroke."

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It is amusing how many reviewers try to dictate what a movie "must" and must not be evaluated by. All films are their own work of art, even Jean Claude Van Damme films (ugh). Art means different things to different people. Regardless, the director's job is to be the artist, and sometimes those thoughts and creative ideas do not translate well to celluloid. Jane Anderson is saying exactly what she wants to say and keeps the film simple to avoid confusion. Her film, "Normal", is an honest and fresh work even if some may consider it hokey or comedic. Anderson does her best even if some critics and viewers don't understand because they cannot detach themselves from their own moralistic beliefs. It is very easy for anyone to say that wanting to be of the opposite biological sex or gender is wrong and "selfish", but once upon a time if you were overly tall, muscular, or hairy compared to the rest of the population you were considered to be a mistake, wrong, and more importantly, criminal. If I grew up to be 7 feet tall like a basketball player 120 years ago I would probably be in jail for a reason which is not my fault. If anything is "selfish" it is society for wanting everyone to conform to black and white, male and female. If child can be born with both XX AND XY chromosomes to have a male and female reproductive system, why is it so impossible for the child to be born with different brain physiology? Maybe movies such as "Normal" would not be needed (yes, needed) in American culture if the general public were to sit down and actually read ANYTHING the American Psychiatric Association has included in their DSM. What is most important IS the health of the people on this planet, including mental health which still is one of the main causes of physical illness and death in the United States (coronary heart disease, not AIDS). However, as a society everyone continues to play the blame game instead of changing. "It's your fault your poor, it's your fault your gay", and once upon a time, "it's your fault for being tall", ridiculous as it may seem (see Lombroso's biological/phrenological explanations for crime). The only problem with the movie "Normal" is that many viewers probably won't understand why the name of the movie is "normal".

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There was recently a program on, maybe Discovery Channel?, about transsexuals, and there has been research done on the hipocampus of several transsexual people. It revealed that the hippocampus of the male transsexuals was much more like the hippocampus of the female control group. This is only the beginning of the study, but I found even that fact very interesting.
There are also of course the people born with extra sex chromosomes who are hermaphrodites, and all the confusion they experience. No one can say THAT'S a lifestyle choice. Heh.

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As I was flipping through the movie channels last night I came across this movie and although I was a little hesitant to watch thinking that it would be a waste of time, I decided to give it a try. I thought it was a very well acted with some unintentional humorous parts. The scene where Roy and Irma were recieving counsiling for the first time and Roy comes clean about his desire to be a woman was funny to me. Just seeing Irma's denial and nervous laughter along with the pastor's shock really made me think, what would you say or do in Irma or Roy's position. Would you stay with Roy or do like many would and file for divorce. Is love strong enough to hold together a marriage when faced with something like this? These were all pretty hard questions for me to answer personally. I'd give it a 6.5 out of 10 stars because of the ending. Like was mentioned before, I think it did a wonderful job of showing the pre-op struggles but what about after the surgery? Maybe we could look for a Normal Part Duex.

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I thought Roy was selfish and inconsiderate of his family. He knew he wanted to be a woman, fine nothing wrong with that, but he should have faced that before he ever got married and had a family.

You don't have a family and have others to worry about and then all of sudden get the .."What about me and what I want" mentality. Sorry once you have a spouse and kids it isn't about you anymore. How typical of our society now. It reminds me of when spouses cheat on one another and then believe they were justified becasue they were "bored" or "wanted something for themselves"

And we are all suppossed to just be tolerant of that? And accepting? I am fine with someone who feels they are a different gender and want to change that, that is not the issue, but they shouldn't do it and wrech others lives and expect everyone to just revolve about them now and have a disregard for how many lived they infringe on.

And I mean he knew , he had to, that he felt like a woman in a man's body. I don't care those are things you know early on in life. And if he figured it out later, well too bad. I just don't feel for him or people like that. I feel for their spouses and kids they put through it.

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[deleted]

LOL....no lobotomy needed. I, too, watched this movie last night and only stayed with it because a friend said it was so good (that and Jessica Lange). I kept waiting for it to get "good". To me...it was one of those movies that you're not sure it is supposed to be funny or if the director wants you to take it seriously. I have to agree with ChipDip.....I think the humor was unintentional. I was disappointed that it ended right before the operation. (And what was up with Irma asking Roy on their last night in bed before the surgery if she could look at his privates???) On the selfishness issue....he said at the beginning to the pastor and Irma that it had come to the point where he'd rather die than to continue the lie......and the scene in the barn at his father's birthday....WAS he serious? Talk about hurting your family with the gender issue....sure, Roy....killing yourself would be MUCH less painful to them--NOT. Yes, they could have done so much more with it. It truly could have been a deeply touching movie about the strains of changing gender (or as Irma and Frank said....changing pronouns).....but instead, it just floundered and became comical....intentional or not.

"Old man, you give those dogs another piece of my food and I'm gonna kick you 'til you're dead!"--Moonstruck

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I can't argue with that.

Catholics (if not ALL christians) clearly specify concealing of such information to the other spouse to be a "dealbreaker" regarding marriage, meaning if you're aware you're gay/STD positive/sexualy confused/etc and CONCEAL such info to your spouse before getting married, that marriage is void, and the conned spouse released from ALL wedding vows, and free to remarry someone else.

So to Hell with Roy/Ruth/WHATEVER just for that alone.

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[deleted]

Selfish and inconsiderate? 25 years would be meet most people’s definition of taking ones time to consider. Do you understand just how little was known about gender dysphoria 25 years ago? Keep in mind that while the movie was released in 2003 the idea for the play it was based on would be a good 5 years earlier. So we’re talking about what some farmboy would have known about gender dysphoria in the early 1970’s.

What is selfish is to dig in one’s heels, making the situation worse, and then blame other people for your inability to be more human, kind, and accepting.

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If you’re out there murdering people on some level you must want to be Christian. -Boston Legal

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Yeah...

I don't care if over at America's "Dark Africa" they think God gave men the rifle to hunt down dinosaurs and homosexuals, anyone knows (would be instructed about it by their local church people) that witholding certain info from the spouse is cause of nulification of the marriage, such as having a STD, being sterile, being gay, and certainly Roy was aware that he prefered men sexually at least.

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Roy never said he preferred men. He told Irma that after the operation he still wanted to stay with her, she was the only person he loved.

Colm Meaney fans stop by
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theirishman
[email protected]

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He did say he liked men SEXUALLY (long time since they had sex), but still loved her.

That's about as comforting as saying "Honey, I do love you, those girls I pork on the side are just fun, nothing else".

Look, not his fault he switched sides, but I do think he was seriously dishonest. When it comes to marriage, such things are not yours alone, the spouse is entitled to be in the loop, from the start.



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Could you tell me where the scene is he says that he likes men? I've only seen the movie a couple times and I don't remember him saying that. I would swear he told Irma she was the only person he was attracted to.

Keeping his feelings a secret for so long wasn't right but considering the generation he grew up in it's not surprising to me that it took so long for him to come clean.

Colm Meaney fans stop by
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theirishman
[email protected]

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I think it was where him and the wife discuss all that "what about all these years sleeping together, you never liked me then?" business. Don't own the film, so I would have to catch it on HBO again to tell you for sure.

Well, guess one has to live through it in order to really know.

Still, I can't wrap my head around such situations. Wouldn't be cheaper, easier, and less painfull to simply go to a shrink?

I mean, if such condition, when is mental alone (his body is totally the one of a man), is treatable at all.

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Actually people in this position go to shrinks for a better part of their life. NO ONE wants to go through this, because the treatment most time IS getting a sex change - something that is generally unaccepted and seen as "wrong" or "freakish" by many people.

People going through this don't feel "whole" as a person. The only way to make yourself whole is to be who you feel you are... if that makes any sense.

As far as being selfish goes... many people in this situation tend to marry hoping that it will "cure" them. Also, some people genuinely love their partners and do want to have a family - hoping that this will outweigh their feelings about who they are as people, and sometimes it does for a time. Then again, some people may not be totally aware that this is their desire when they get involved with someone. It takes years of introspection to figure out that this is the right thing for you to do. Imagine facing that. You feel like you want to be the opposite sex, so much so that you want to no longer live your life. Yet you're still trying to find something else that it might be so you don't have to go through with changing your sex, causing complete and total upheaval of your life and the lives of people close to you.

People do not come to this decision quickly or lightly. Most will go years trying to convince themselves that this ISN'T the case and, in the process, cause themselves all kinds of harm, both physically and emotionally.

Also, this is a condition that gets worse and causes more psychological trauma over time. The longer you go on, the worse it gets. So this may be bearable when the person is young, but as time goes on, the feelings get worse and worse.
It's inexplicable unless you're going through it. Just know that most people who are going through it don't mean to hurt ANYONE. They just want what most people want, to live their lives and be happy. It's sad that anyone has a problem with that.

Hopefully I made some sense here. :)

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What a nice reply, I'll try to reply in kind...

The "problem" most people have with these kind of persons is that they feel cheated, conned, fooled into thinking they were dealing with a "normal" person, only to discover years later they marry themselves to a nutcase, regardless of whether it's the poor sap's fault.

Imagine that your wife/husband (who's not given you any hint that there's soemthing SERIOUSLY wrong with him/her) suddently came up and said "Honey, guess what? I'm getting a sex change operation, sorry I kept you out of the loop on that one, but I gotta be true to myself and all..."?

Or better, instead of that, you caught him/her: dining on a plateful of feces, doing drugs nonstop, porking the family dog, fooling around with a dead animal, cutting him/herself, take your pick.

Would you accept "I gotta be true to myself, regardless of what that implies" and let him/her endulge his impulses?

I would feel at first pretty upset because, since my spouse was like this BEFORE we got married, I deserved to know what I was getting into.

And then I would tell him "Be true to youself? FOCK YOU!!! Either seek help or get THE FOCK out of my life!"

The line between true character traits (what constitutes oneself) and harmful/wrong/perverted behavior keeps getting more blurred...

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Most people are trying their best to be "normal". They want it to go away, so they do the "normal" thing hoping that it will. Most people aren't that self aware to know that it won't. I agree, people should not hide these feelings from someone they will marry. The thing that gets tricky is that they think that marriage might be a "cure" for them, and who's going to marry someone with doubts about who they are as a person? It's sad.

The fact that you refer to people in this situation as a "nutcase", well I feel that's just wrong. There's many different kinds of people in the world. This is just one kind. Comparing it to eating feces and molesting a dog or dead animal is just an ignorant and intentionally hurtful comment.

People need to understand that people going through sex changes and the like don't see this as something that's self-destructive. They see it as them helping themselves live a better life. F'ing the family dog doesn't really do that on any level. And who's to say what's "wrong" or "perverted"? You? Who's the judge of that? I'm sure you wouldn't like me or anyone else telling you what's right and wrong for you to do.

Maybe it's easier to explain it this way. Take a guy, a normal everyday guy, who's happy with being a guy. Now he has a horrible accident and his penis gets severed or destroyed or whatever. They can't do anything for him. He's of course devastated. Do you not still treat him like a man after the accident, even if he doesn't have male genitals?

What makes up "male" and "female" isn't all about what someone looks like. Everyone in the world is a "freak", because no one is exactly like you. You are different from everyone else in the world, we all are. And "different" = "freak". The key, I think, is to try to understand and celebrate the differences, rather than berate people for it and force them into conformity. Especially when they have no desire to hurt ANYONE, only a desire to do what's right for them, and by doing so to offer their own unique perspective and individuality to the world.

That being said, people in this situation should really, REALLY question getting involved with people that don't know. So I do agree with that, but sometimes it's not that cut and dry.

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"The thing that gets tricky is that they think that marriage might be a "cure" for them, and who's going to marry someone with doubts about who they are as a person? It's sad. "

Well, same for someone with AIDS, who wants to marry one? Tough, but that ain't excuse for concealing info. Just take a look at Africa, see whre they are because they conceal such things, among many others...

"Comparing it to eating feces and molesting a dog or dead animal is just an ignorant and intentionally hurtful comment. "

Why? They're not hurtinh anyone either (dogs hump anything that moves, my leg for instance, so I'm not sure that constitutes molestation), and they sure didn't choose to have such proclivities either. And the dead animal bit is pretty close to having someone's ashes around the house, or in a necklace around your neck.

Eating feces alone, why isn't the same thing? No one is getting hurt there, nor is voluntary, and all that. Why can't I compare them? They're just as sick...

It's not like comparing gay couples to incest or bestiality (not THAT is unjust).

"Take a guy, a normal everyday guy, who's happy with being a guy. Now he has a horrible accident and his penis gets severed or destroyed or whatever. They can't do anything for him. He's of course devastated. Do you not still treat him like a man after the accident, even if he doesn't have male genitals? "

That's an accident, not a choice. He gets himself a prosthesis and that's that.

"What makes up "male" and "female" isn't all about what someone looks like"

I clearly said "in this case the only thing wrong with him is his mind". I clearly left aside cases where the gender isn't phisically clearly determined (cromosomes, hermafrodite case, homnone inbalance, etc.), since those people are TRULY screwed and NEED to pick one or the other.

I don't call these people freaks, since they were born that way (out of their hands) and MUST do some serious alterations to determine themselves.

People like Roy, however, BECOME that way (there's no more "tranny" or "gay" gene than a "sociopath" gene) for whatever upbringing/envirome nt reasons you may care to mention. When adults, they either correct such deviation (it's hard, but can be done, like an alcoholic trying to correct his deviant behavior, hard and takes a lifetime sometimes) or endulge it and adapt themselves (and expect everyone else around them to haul ass too) to their deviation.

THAT makes them freaks. Like the guy eating feces, instead of seeking help in order to stop, he hides and alters his eating patterns so he can endulge himself undisturbed, since (at the moment) he cannot get anyone to "accept" and "tolerate" his cravings.



Gee, I get a craving for shooting craps and drink my salary away every 15th of the month. Shouldn't my boss "tolerate" and "understand" me even though I may gamble away the company's capital? It's a disease after all, not my fault...





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Are you more upset that Roy was confused, or that Roy was confused and didn't tell anyone?

Either way, you seem to be blaming Roy for his situation, one that he cannot change. Evidence has shown that the brain structures of both homosexuals and people with gender dysphoria often resemble the opposite sex, leading scientists to believe that the cause is something in the womb, or genetics, not upbringing or environment outside the womb. They do not simply decide one day they want to become the opposite sex; in most cases people are born with it and struggle with it their entire lives. In short, Roy could not control what he was feeling, nor could he change it. Trying to deny his feelings would be like trying to deny his blood type; it's not going to change, or go away just because he wants it to. And blaming him because he is transgendered is like blaming him because his blood type is different as well.

As to telling no one, if you put it into context, as was suggested earlier, this is in a conservative, Midwest farm town, in the 60's and 70's. While the time period is known for free love, the place isn't. Look at the reactions he had in 2003 when he started wearing earrings. If he had pulled that any earlier, he probably would have been beaten to death within a month, if it took them that long. People are still scared of coming out as homosexuals, much less transgendered. And with all the hate crimes against them, can you really blame them for hiding until it becomes more acceptable?

According to what your saying about Catholicism saying that with-held information is basis for a null-and-void marriage, then yes, Roy and Irma's marriage is now null and void, particularly after the priest/pastor/fathe r/whomever gives his permission. I'm in no position to dispute that considering I'm not Christian and have never heard of that particular matrimonial loophole.

What you are forgetting is that even after the priest gave her permission to abandon her husband, Irma stayed because she loved him. You don't have to be married to stay together, nor to love one another. If she wants to stay with him, that is fine, married or not. That is her decision, not the church's, not the priest's, her's. And I must remind you that because their marriage is void in the eyes of the church and God, it does not mean their marriage is void in the eyes of the law.

You cannot blame Roy for being who he is, nor for wanting to express himself as he feels he is. That is something he cannot change about himself, just as he cannot change his bloodtype. It's rooted into his body, into his mind. You can't blame him for hiding it either because it was the safest thing to do at the time. You can't blame him for telling because keeping it a secret was making him physically ill (evidenced by the faint in the beginning and the mentioned headaches) and causing strain on his marriage; revealing it was the only thing he could do. You cannot blame him for wanting to become female physically because by brain structure and mental patterns, he is female. And you cannot blame him for ruining his marriage because his wife still loves him and accepts him in the end, so the marriage is only ruined to the outside world, but not to the people who matter.

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Very well put!

Also... I just want to say that being a tranny is not a disease, so... there is no "cure".

It's the way some people were born.
Just like some people were born with brown hair, and what a stupid reason to hate someone or call them a "freak" or say they have a disease.

C'mon people, you're better than that!

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"Also... I just want to say that being a tranny is not a disease, so... there is no "cure". "

Neither is liking to eat feces (you can't catch it from an open toilet), nor gambling (unless you can catch it from a rolling dice).

"It's the way some people were born.
Just like some people were born with brown hair, and what a stupid reason to hate someone or call them a "freak" or say they have a disease. "

Supposition, not fact. You can't prove that's how they're born nor that it's due to genetics. You can believe it though...

And since when disagreeing with your position, or pointing out my disapproval at someone's hebavior, equals to hating?

Talk about intolerants masquerating as tolerants. Hypocrites is a better term...

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"Are you more upset that Roy was confused, or that Roy was confused and didn't tell anyone?"

I'm upset about him not telling anyone, not for his condition (no his fault he ended up that way).

But I don't buy into that trent that such condition is genetics-biology origined (unless someone shows one day conclusive evidence, haven't done that yet).

"Evidence has shown that the brain structures of both homosexuals and people with gender dysphoria often resemble the opposite sex, leading scientists to believe that the cause is something in the womb, or genetics, not upbringing or environment outside the womb"

Yes, but evidence also shows that the brain ADAPTS itself to the use given to it, meaning if you persist on thinking like a woman (whatever reason), your brain structure will end up reshaping itself into the one of a woman.

Any doctor experienced with brain damage patients can tell you that to regain lost faculties patients have to try/practice them over and over, and when recovery is possible, the brain has ended up MODIFYING itself to overcome the damage and therefore provide the necessary connections for these lost/regained faculties.

No a different brain structure ain't the cause, but the RESULT of such behavior. Like psychopats, their brains are different but NOT because they were born that way, but because of the lifetime behavior those subjcts have endulged in, the brain has simply adapted itself.

"leading scientists to believe that the cause is something in the womb, or genetics, not upbringing or environment outside the womb"

No conclusive evidence has been given. I would go for enviroment/upbringi ng in the womb, that also counts big time.

Want my proof that genetics ain't it? A cloned cat (you can google for it, this is recent) was NOTHING like the original cat (different size, color, personality), yet both are genetically IDENTICAL.

"this is in a conservative, Midwest farm town, in the 60's and 70's. "

Again, I don't care if that's "Deep Africa" Bible Belt zone, any minister worth his position will instruct you that concealing serious stuff is no dice.

"can you really blame them for hiding until it becomes more acceptable? "

Then don't get married. If I'm poor can you understand me robbing a bank?

"I'm in no position to dispute that considering I'm not Christian and have never heard of that particular matrimonial loophole. "

It's not a loophole, it goes to the very definition of marriage (for catholics). If you DECEIVE your spouse to be, you're voiding voiding the tennant of marriage: create a community (of two at first) of love and trust. The second tennent is to be willing to have kids.

If you marry someone you don't love under the treat that otherwise you'll be murdered, or simply at gunpoint, does that make the marriage real? Of course not. Would you consider that a "loophole"?

"Irma stayed because she loved him. You don't have to be married to stay together, nor to love one another. If she wants to stay with him, that is fine, married or not"

When did I say she couldn't decide whatever she wanted? Women make stupid decisions all the time, like remaining with an abusive/violent husband. All I said is that she had every right to call it quits if she wanted to.

"And I must remind you that because their marriage is void in the eyes of the church and God, it does not mean their marriage is void in the eyes of the law. "

You gotta be KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Legally a marriage can be anulled/ended (choose your term, divorce for instance) over just about ANY excuse. Just check out Britney Spears, or the latest Hollywood divorce "I was drunk/stoned, irreconcibable differences, etc".

Lying about your sexual identity/orientatio n is right up there with concealing having STD's, been already married, etc.

Hell, mental cruelty alone will cut it for that one.

"That is something he cannot change about himself, just as he cannot change his bloodtype. It's rooted into his body, into his mind."

Not fact, suposition. Alcoholism is more rooted into one's genes (more proven at least) that tranny or gayness. Yet we demand alcoholics/drug addicts to somehow change...

"You can't blame him for hiding it either because it was the safest thing to do at the time"

Not for hiding it from the rednecks, but yes from his spouse. She's entitled to such info, whether you're embarrased or not. If you can't bring yourself to share that, then DON'T GET MARRIED.

Marriage comes with responsabilities too, you know...

"You can't blame him for telling because keeping it a secret was making him physically ill (evidenced by the faint in the beginning and the mentioned headaches) and causing strain on his marriage; revealing it was the only thing he could do"

Like I said, he made his bed by marrying in deception...

"You cannot blame him for wanting to become female physically because by brain structure and mental patterns, he is female"

Brain adapts to whatever use you put it to, as for mental patterns, well, they were formed, they can be unformed. But if he prefers to pull a Michael Jackson (even if innocent he's one sick dude, why don't people ask society instead to accept him the way he became/was born, since obviously he feels so strongly about it that he's willing to alter himself to such an extent) instead of going to the shrink, that's his problem...

"And you cannot blame him for ruining his marriage because his wife still loves him and accepts him in the end, so the marriage is only ruined to the outside world, but not to the people who matter. "

Yeah, in a Hollywood gay/tranny agenda driven film. Not that simple in real life.


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Yes, but evidence also shows that the brain ADAPTS itself to the use given to it, meaning if you persist on thinking like a woman (whatever reason), your brain structure will end up reshaping itself into the one of a woman.


That is true. I read about a study done where a man wore glasses that inverted the image and after a few months, his brain adapted by reinverting the image so he could get on with his life. When he took the glasses off, his brain had to relearn to not invert the image. The brain is a wonderful and complex thing that even neurosurgeons don't fully understand.

However, in Roy's case, he probably spent about 35 years trying not to feel his feelings. He had them when he was younger (his father talking about finding him in his sister's clothes), but he hoped they would go away. He spent 35 years trying to be the typical male, not trying to be female. According to you, if it wasn't already a part of who he was, his brain could adapt to it and he would have no problems with it. His brain would adapt to being male after 35 years, he wouldn't have any guilt about it, he wouldn't have the health problems, and there wouldn't be any movie. The fact that all this did happen suggests that he could not change, could not possibly adapt, and the only way he could get rid of these feelings was to indulge in them.

No conclusive evidence has been given. I would go for enviroment/upbringi ng in the womb, that also counts big time.


That is true as well. There is no conclusive evidence. We probably won't get any conclusive evidence until we allow human cloning and autopsies on fetuses. With what we have right now, the best we can say is that some studies point towards some things as being determined pre-birth, and some things are determined post-birth, and even with that we have to go case-by-case. Nothing can be generalized.

With Roy's case, the fact that he felt this way despite living the normal male life points that it might be more internally influenced rather than outwardly.

Then don't get married.


They got married because they loved each other. That is a running theme throughout the movie and Roy states many times that he loves only her. He thought his condition would go away, or he could ignore it, and when he couldn't the only solution was to tell the truth.

You gotta be KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Legally a marriage can be anulled/ended (choose your term, divorce for instance) over just about ANY excuse. Just check out Britney Spears, or the latest Hollywood divorce "I was drunk/stoned, irreconcibable differences, etc".

Lying about your sexual identity/orientatio n is right up there with concealing having STD's, been already married, etc.

Hell, mental cruelty alone will cut it for that one.


It can be, but they never filed for divorce. All they did was separate for a while and got back together.

Not for hiding it from the rednecks, but yes from his spouse. She's entitled to such info, whether you're embarrased or not. If you can't bring yourself to share that, then DON'T GET MARRIED.


I have to reiterate the fact that he stated that he hoped it would go away and it wouldn't be a problem. His exact words are "I prayed for years for it to go away."

Do you go to the doctor every time you get a cough, or do you stay home and hope it will go away? It's the same thing really. There was something wrong with him and he thought it would go away.

Yeah, in a Hollywood gay/tranny agenda driven film. Not that simple in real life.


No, in real life he probably would have been fired from his job instead of promoted, hated by his entire family, hunted down and beaten to death by small minded townspeople soon after wearing the earrings. Would this have made a more appealing movie to you?

Your problem really is that he hid the fact that he was confused. What you have to understand is that he really did hope it would go away. He hoped it wouldn't be a problem. It does not make it any less wrong that he did hide it, but he does have reasons for doing so. Maybe you can accept them, maybe you can't, but at least understand that this is what he was feeling and thinking.

Religiously, sure their marriage is void. According to that church, maybe even according to God (though no one can speak for him/her/it). There are other parts to a marriage though. Legally, they are still married. They did not divorce, they only separated for a short time. Just because that church does not acknowledge their marriage, does not mean that they aren't married.

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"According to you, if it wasn't already a part of who he was, his brain could adapt to it and he would have no problems with it. His brain would adapt to being male after 35 years, he wouldn't have any guilt about it, he wouldn't have the health problems, and there wouldn't be any movie. The fact that all this did happen suggests that he could not change, could not possibly adapt, and the only way he could get rid of these feelings was to indulge in them. "

Hey, I never said it was easy. I stated "when recovery is possible" regarding brain damage, implying that for some people (gays, trannies, etc) the "damage" (better called developed behavior) is far too much for it to be undone in their lifetimes.

That's why I'm really skeptic of those "gay deprogramming" courses. A person has lived half his life as gay, ASSUMING it can be undone, it would take that person the rest of his life to undo that. I really ask myself, 'At that point, is it really worth it?' That's why even though I'm religious and conservative I support gay unions and tolerance to them (there's a difference between being intolerant and being HORRIBLY politically incorrect and crude, that's me).

Reality sets in eventually.

"With Roy's case, the fact that he felt this way despite living the normal male life points that it might be more internally influenced rather than outwardly"

Hey, could be. That tranny in that film Boys don't Cry, Teena Brandon, was raped as a child by her uncle or something (crimelibrary.org), no wonder she became terrified of intimating with the opposite sex. Without adddressing the ROOT cause of such behavior (not everyone is a phsychiatrist), one can spend a lifetime wishing it away and failing (like alcoholics and drug addicts).

"They got married because they loved each other. That is a running theme throughout the movie and Roy states many times that he loves only her"

That's something that rang quite hollow with me. I'm sure he still loves her, but EVERY tranny I know (streetwalkers, maybe not best examples) seek sex with the NOW opposite sex (meaning they're gay), so him not going after any guy ever didn't seem right to me.

"Do you go to the doctor every time you get a cough, or do you stay home and hope it will go away? It's the same thing really. There was something wrong with him and he thought it would go away. "

Bad analogy, depends on your health plan (whether you can afford seeing the doc for evry little thing, if I could, I sure would see him for ANYTHING).

But yes, sorry guy (didn't know better we should say?).

"No, in real life he probably would have been fired from his job instead of promoted, hated by his entire family, hunted down and beaten to death by small minded townspeople soon after wearing the earrings. Would this have made a more appealing movie to you? "

In that kind of town, sure, even today. And no, it would not appeal to me in the sense you seem to be implying "the freak got what it deserved!", for tragic realism we already got Boys don't Cry.

And about you insisting on calling the Catholic Church "that church", like it's some recent trendy cult or something like scientology. I mean, you got something against it, or religion for that matter, fine, just remember most people think highly of their churches.

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I knew you couldn't be as bad as you seemed. :-)

I'm sure he still loves her, but EVERY tranny I know (streetwalkers, maybe not best examples) seek sex with the NOW opposite sex (meaning they're gay), so him not going after any guy ever didn't seem right to me.


And how many 50-year-old transexuals do you know? Seems to me that any woman's sex drive (trans or not) would falter about then. And I think they did discuss something about sex when the two were in bed, but I don't remember the scene too well. I get the impression that he wasn't going to look for a guy, but I don't remember why except that she was all he ever needed. Besides, she has fingers.

And about you insisting on calling the Catholic Church "that church", like it's some recent trendy cult or something like scientology. I mean, you got something against it, or religion for that matter, fine, just remember most people think highly of their churches.


I say "that church" because it's the only one I know of that so thoroughly condemns everything that isn't heterosexual, missionary sex. Some other sects of Christianity are more tolerant in general, and others downright acceptant. Not to mention, I don't know for sure what religion Roy and Irma belonged to, so I can only respond using the one you gave as an example.

I like religion, I'm just not religious.

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"And how many 50-year-old transexuals do you know? Seems to me that any woman's sex drive (trans or not) would falter about then. And I think they did discuss something about sex when the two were in bed"

None, 50 year old streetwalkers ain't really that hot for anyone's taste. About the sex drive, sure, USUALLY, and what they discussed in bed was that they haven't had sex in a century or something...

"I say "that church" because it's the only one I know of that so thoroughly condemns everything that isn't heterosexual, missionary sex"

You haven't heard of the Cult of the Supreme being, have you? That "rational" religion Robespierre came up with.

Or the Orthodox Church in say Russia..

Or how about Judaism for that matter, who do you think introduced the "stoning" of homos and such? Take a look at Leviticus and you'll see just how they feel about ANY sexual stuff that isn't "misionary sex", even having your period if you're a woman...

Or Islam (a tolerant religion if I ever saw one)? You gonna tell me a gay has a better time in, say, Saudi Arabia (they cut off hands for masturbating I think) or Sudan or Nigeria (they still stone people there for adultery, remember that case of the 20 year old girl sentenced to stoning?) than in any catholic Latinamerican country?

Let's get a grip on proportinality here. Want to bash the Catholic Church? The pedophilia scandals should be more than enough.

And about the "sect" term. It used to refer to any religious movement (bogus or not) that claims to be a christian religion (they believe in Christ as God) but they actualy don't (like Mormons, great religion and all, but when you're deed enough into it you'll realize they don't worship God nor Christ, but something else entirely).

Remember Catholiscism was the same as Christianity before protestantism, only then Chritianity became divided between Catholiscm and those "who protest" to this or that thing (usually a dogma).

Just because Catholicism is the most noticeable and attacked (soon they'll say catholics came up with communism) is trendy to vilify it.

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I've thought for a while about how I was going to reply to this, which is part of the reason I took so long getting back here.

The only thing I can say is that I was not trying to bash Catholicism. I was merely using the example you presented, and stating what I know of it.

I'm not a religious scholar, I don't study religion. I do have some misinformation about some sects, and I don't know everything about all religions.

And sect does not just refer to Christianity. A sect is simply a religious denomination. It can and does apply to any religion. Catholicism is a sect of Christianity. Orthodox Judaism is a sect of Judaism. Sunni is a sect of Muslim.

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"I've thought for a while about how I was going to reply to this"

Why? I just thought you had moved on to geener pastures...

Sure, I wrote a good post but not that deep...

"The only thing I can say is that I was not trying to bash Catholicism. I was merely using the example you presented, and stating what I know of it"

Fair enough.

Today it's hard, since extremism is the norm, with the fundamentalists pushing for creationism (come on...) to be taught alonside evolution, and the antireligious people wishing to ban "Under God" from the Pledge or even from the currency (speak of intolerance...).

About the sects, I said "usually" they refer to Cristianity. Because by definition you cannot have a sect from a non unified religion.

Meaning, cristianity was unified under Rome, groups breaking away from that but still remaining cristian are therefore sects.

Judaism doesn't have such unifying body, unless the rabbies that govern it are more coordinated than I thought. Before, with the Temple and Sanhedrin, they were.

Islam isn't unified either. Under the Kaliphate they were, now, they are as diverse as the wind.

So neither religion can have "sects" really.

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But I don't buy into that trent that such condition is genetics-biology origined (unless someone shows one day conclusive evidence, haven't done that yet).
Here, have some links: http://aebrain.blogspot.com/p/reference-works-on-transsexual-and.html
Want my proof that genetics ain't it? A cloned cat (you can google for it, this is recent) was NOTHING like the original cat (different size, color, personality), yet both are genetically IDENTICAL.
That's due to developmental noise, which is likely the cause of transgenderism as well.

Many transgender and intersex cases are not genetic in origin but due to pre-natal hormonal influences. Unlike some other animals, human sexual differentiation is based on hormones, not chromosomes. In most cases, chromosomes dictate the appropriate sex hormone production and thus sexual development, but this can screw up for various reasons.

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It's the question that drives us. I know the answer is 42.

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I have seen the movie many times, and not once did he say that. If you listen to the commentary Jane Anderson herself said that Roy IS sexually attracted to Irma. And also if you remember the conversation Roy has with Wayne, Wayne asks him "So sexually you're still into women, you're still into mom?" and Roy says "yes." And Wayne says "so as a man you're straight, but as a woman you're gay?" Roy doesn't give a straight answer, it is obviously much more complicated than that. Although it is probably somewhat comforting to Irma when Roy said that know matter what he would never cheat on her.

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No not all churches do as you claim.

You seem to miss the point that Roy did not prefer men.
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If you’re out there murdering people on some level you must want to be Christian. -Boston Legal

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"No not all churches do as you claim"

I'm sure the Moonies, Mormoms and Scientologists have much more relaxed rules regarding their multiple marriages, and ages regarding the girls and such...

And that point rings false. Every tranny I know (streetwalkers) go after men, meaning they're gay indeed (and a few are stil married to their original wifes and have kids).

Want snappy imbecile quotes? I'll give you one...

Religion is the opium of the masses -Karl Marx (lovely system he came up with, how come we don't have it here?)

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And that point rings false. Every tranny I know (streetwalkers) go after men, meaning they're gay indeed (and a few are stil married to their original wifes and have kids).


What the transexuals you know do or don’t do isn’t relevant here. There are male-to-female transsexuals which aren’t attracted to males. Your comments on Churches are out of the blue and not on topic.

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If you’re out there murdering people on some level you must want to be Christian. -Boston Legal

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What movie were you watching?

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I have to disagree with you. I absolutely loved this movie. Yes, it didn't address all the issues it could have and some of its solutions were rather pat, but it went further with this subject than any film had gone prior to this and the effort must be applauded. I thought Tom Wilkenson and Jessica Lange delivered heartbreaking and devastating performances and I do agree that it was sweet to see a married couple on film that much in love. You felt this couple's love which made the pain of what they were going through so vividly real. This film is worth seeing for the performances of Wilkenson and Lange alone.

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gimmicky?!? How about agenda-based? All the female characters were strong while all the male characters were written as 1-dimensional homophobic buffoons.
This should have been shown on Lifetime, not HBO.

Jessica Lange was great, though.

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al666940-3 is right about how all marriages should be, and how people should just spend their one and only god-given life (wow, how "selfish" of them) miserable and alone to make the rest of society happy. How clever.

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