MovieChat Forums > Normal (2003) Discussion > Why is it OK for Roy to lie and entrap a...

Why is it OK for Roy to lie and entrap a woman into such a situation?

posted 17 years ago by al666940-3
15 replies | jump to latest

Honestly

I don't want to judge or comment on his transexuality (that's his business), but what about marrying to someone you KNOW you're deceiving?

I mean, check with your local priest/reverend/rabby/imam. Anyone will tell you that's a cannonical dealbreaker. Just like hiding the fact you're gay or HIV positive.

And never mind the lifelong trauma he'll inflict on his wife/kids.

Sure, here they are portrayed like it's no biggie. Try that in real life.

I don't care how hard he wants to fit in, marrying is not just about you and hiding yourself. He's pretty much using her to hide his situation.

Had he told her beforehand, then it's all good, since she would KNOW what she's getting into.

But he didn't.

That's sickening to me. Try to fit in all you want, but don't use people.

[–] ceetedee 16 years ago

hey people make mistakes...

and besides closet transsexuals usually do actually love their wives/husbands, and they hope they can get over it for their partners, but it doesnt tend to be successful

[–] Chaluta2 16 years ago

Usually people in that situation are hoping that marrying someone will make them feel "right" and don't think that they will ever totally break down like that. I think in most situations people think that after marriage their lives will improve, or that they'll just hide it forever and adjust. Also, I think a big point of the movie was it took him all those years simply to fess up to his true feelings. If s/he realized all the options at the time it would be totally different, because when they were married in the movie sex changes weren't as common, or even invented. I see your point, and now if someone got married with that in mind it would apply more, but back then when they would have gotten married.. I think it's quite different.

[–] burgershmurger 16 years ago

let's face it: it's not a sex change but a self-mutilation committed by a disturbed personality. a sex change involves a castration, i.e. a male loses his testicles and does not become a female that can procreate but merely a castrated male. this is the sad truth of those disturbed people. what they need is not a sex change but therapy.

[–] SuperStarMan 16 years ago

Actually burgershmurger, therapy is exactly what they go through before they have the surgery. They have to go through hormone therapy, pscychiatric evaluation and they have to live as the desired sex for at least a year. Then after those requirements are met then they are granted surgery.

By the way, just because they can't reproduce that doesn't mean they are not women or men. It just means they can't reproduce. Simple as that.

[–] patrick_bateman_90056 9 years ago

burgershmurger, does that mean that a woman who is infertile isn't a real woman or does that contradict your opinion because they were both with a vagina from the get-go?

[–] lilredlibra2004 16 years ago

Well, as he said in the movie, he prayed for years and years for the "affliction" to go away. I'm sure he thought, as much as he hoped, that it wouldn't become a problem. His urges towards transgenderism might not have been that strong when he got married. A lot of times, urges get much stronger if you try to suppress them. Try it sometime. And remember, he would have gotten married in, oh, say the 1970's or so - in a very small town - where one didn't speak of such things and any urges (no matter what they were) that were deemed unhealthy or not normal, were kept under wraps. People keep things secret when they feel abnormal and hope they go away. Give it a little though before you spout off ignorance.

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] greenconverse-1 14 years ago

For Roy, growing up in a Christian family in the midwest in the 50's/60's, I'm sure he was always taught that it was a sin and something that he was supposed to be able to help, or pray away. (I'm a Christian, myself, so I know all the things that are taught). So I'm sure he didn't think of it as "trapping" Irma or lying to her. He just thought if he worked hard enough at it, it would go away and she would never have to know, and it wouldn't be an issue. He prayed for 25 years for it to go away and then he had no choice but to accept the way he was. Like he said, he'd rather die than keep living the way he was.

[–] asimovpunch 14 years ago

i think the original OP is kind've missing the point of the film. the film doesn't necessarily convey the message that it is "OK" to lie or entrap or deceive, in fact, it makes an obvious point of demonstrating the kind of toll such a decision can take on a family trying to remain whole.

it is completely open-ended. it's not about Roy's deception, but Roy's yearning for completion and whether or not the ones he loves will or will not accept him and stand by him. the message is truly: "the things we do for love." Normal takes an objective stance on transgender issues. it paints Roy as a sympathetic individual, while really grasping what pain he is inadvertently causing.

[–] fidelio1980 14 years ago

The comparison to HIV is ridiculous. Roy isn't going to infect his wife with a disease.

The comparison to homosexuality is more accurate. I don't know any transgendered people who are or were married, but I've known a number of people who entered into (opposite-sex) marriages, and then later got divorced and came out of the closet as gay. Not a single one of them got married with the mindset of, "I know I'm gay, but I'm going to fool my fiancee into marrying me anyway!" They hadn't admitted their true sexual orientation to themselves at that point. I'm sure it's the same with the vast majority of people in Roy's situation.

Denial is an incredibly powerful thing. All of gay people I mentioned who entered into straight marriages would probably agree that when they chose to get married, they knew on some level that they were different. But what they didn't realize was that they were gay, and that they would never be capable of returning their partners' romantic feelings. I'd imagine that Roy was the same way, with regard to his transgendered identity. He always knew that he was different, and he eventually got to the point where he could admit to himself that he was really a woman trapped in a man's body. But there's no reason to think he was at that point back when he married Jessica Lange's character.

I suppose there are some people out there who have admitted to themselves that they're gay, or transgendered, and then decided to stay in the closet, and got married to unsuspecting partners. Those people really are selfish. But there's no reason to categorize all gay or trans people who have been in opposite sex marriages that way.

[–] peterlc-2 14 years ago

So you don't want to judge ......

.... but you go right on to do just that.

Ever consider he might have married her because he loved her?

[–] afriendukno 13 years ago

your argument is flawed. he married his wife because he loved her, and wanted to spend the rest of his/her life with her. and that didn't change.

you say he should have told her 25 years ago (as if he could have seen 25 years into the future). however i dare you to find one newly wed couple that knows everything that there is to know about their spouse. Marriage is a life journey. sometimes it has it's downs, and sometimes it has it's ups. but you never know where it will lead.

"to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part."

those words have meaning. you however obviously have no idea what they mean.

[–] IlaughedIcriedIthrewup 11 years ago

I'm honestly glad the OP started the conversation this way. It's honest and open. It's straight from the heart. So thanks, OP. And try to be understanding; I think we both know that your choice of words was going to ruffle some feathers.

I can say that, even if it was before the marriage, I think she still would have felt lied to, and I think that Roy would still be in the wrong. Every time to open up to someone about a secret like that is wrong; it will always hurt and all the feelings the OP had mentioned will come up and hurt everyone involved. And of course, everything people said about what Roy was feeling, she would likely be feeling too if he did tell her. She could hope and pray that it would just "go away" if she just held on to him long enough. And then they'd both be deceiving the world and hurting each other every day.

So what I'm getting at is that I don't think there is a right way to handle this situation. I think his was just one of those tests us fallible people get. Religion isn't about never ever doing anything wrong. Sometimes there aren't right answers, possibly by design if we need to learn something hard to become stronger and you believe things happen by design. Religion is about realizing and admitting when we're wrong, realizing other people are just as fallible as we are, and forgiveness all around. It's about trying to be a better person tomorrow than you were today or yesterday.

And so I think that ultimately, Roy's decision was the best one he could have made. That doesn't mean anyone who did things differently would be wrong, just that they'd have different tests as a result. Roy and his wife got 25 years of happy marriage and kids. None of that was a waste even if the relationship did end. And then he told, and that was right too, because after all the pain and suffering, he could finally stop living a double life, and his children would leave the house with a powerful lesson in honesty.