MovieChat Forums > Dans ma peau (2002) Discussion > So, What Was The Point?

So, What Was The Point?


I'm one of those people who love film just for film's sake: that is, I can be intrigued by just about anything, but in this case, that was just too much to ask. I'm all for showing things that are shocking as long as there is at least some explanation for the scenes, however vague...but in this movie, De Van didn't even attempt to go into any sort of analysis about this woman's strange disgusting behavior. Yes, we know that there are unfortunate people who cut themselves, pull out their hair, self starve, or whatever else they are compelled to do to re-live some sort of past trauma, but no attempt to clarify things with the viewer were ever made in this film. I feel that, if you're going to disturb and make us sick to our stomachs, do so with a very definite message. And in this case, I think I am especially angry because in many ways, the film was beautiful and poetic and promised a revelation at some point. Esther's strange little face (she reminded me of Geraldine Chaplin), and her skinny little body were so unlike our idea of female idealism that it made me want to know even more about her problems. The monochromatic photography and strange cramped spaces of al,mos all of the film's environments screamed of an underlying message that I, at once feel stupid for not getting, and angry for not having more well explained. It is irresponsible as an author or director to shove weirdness of this sort in front of the paying public, and just say, "Well, there you are".
Please.


"I'm not prejudiced, I hate everyone equally"

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I agree with you whole heartedly. I just posted a message saying the same thing. I love weird movies, not retarded ones that are completely unclear of anything that goes on.

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I watched the film again last night, and I had another thought...I think that the director may have been making a sort of allegory: that is, the business of self mutilation is a mystery, and that she knows as little about the subject as we do...therefore, there is no obligation on her part to clarify anything, as, the whole point is that it cannot be clarified...even by doctors. Hmmmmm.... Whaddaya think?


"I'm not prejudiced, I hate everyone equally"

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Self-mutilation is indeed a mystery, especially to those of us who don't practice it, but even to those who do. Witness Esther's reply to her naturally incredulous boyfriend when he asks her "WHY?" ... she hasn't a clue why.

The psychologists are still grasping for an answer. So is Marina de Van. And she has shown us just how little we yet know about what makes ourselves tick.

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That's what I got from it as well. And Esther really has no idea why she's doing it either; there is no intelligible reason for it.


-We've survived yet again-
-We've lost yet again-

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If I had to guess I'd say the point of the film was to make self-mutilation a metaphor for the less obvious destruction we all feel compelled to inflict upon ourselves via the foods we eat, drugs, bad relationships, etc. or perhaps the emphasis we put on our careers, as Esther seemed to get further along in the deep end the more her career advanced. Again, that would be if I had to guess and was forced to be so analytical. Myself, I was ultimately a little bored with the film and found it to be silly.

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The need for control? Addiction? Having something that is yours and no one else's?

This is an important film, and it is about all of these things. Look at the main character's job--- analysis, point by point reporting, detail-oriented results, all data for someone else's venture. What is hers? What can she have, what can she document and say this is me--- where I was before and where I am now? Perhaps her mutilation is simply a way to pinpoint herself to a map, a way of staking territory, or discovering something new. Also, she has quite a bit of responsibility at her job, old and new. Her original wound was not at first felt, and seemed to happen apart from her. Also, when she awakes the one morning and her left arm is asleep, she later cuts the same arm at a dinner and then retreats to a hotel room to further her mutilation. People do not take on immediate, palpable responsibility for things they don't remember experiencing or feeling. I think this is what first gets her started down the road she eventually gets lost on. In her life, she has had control and responsibility, and the initial wound was accidental and she didn't even have bearings on her own pain. The pictures she takes later are almost to prove the acts she engages in actually happened. When she goes into her cutting binges, it's in the mode of someone who cannot hold back, someone who needs this, who is addicted or intoxicated by the unknowns, the variables. She lacks real time perspective, and her later inspecting of the wounds is her vehicle of getting the ground back under foot. I also think the film was a meditation on vanity. In the final scene, we see the character we have come to know, who is also the actress, writer, and director--- she is posing but vacant, beautiful but scarred--- we are not just looking at her, she is also looking at herself. In order to take artistic license and force image on an audience, you must be vain, but also honest, in love with the beauty of self, but also exposed and ugly. Self mutilation serves these purposes well. It's a completely self centered act, but also a liberating cry for help.

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Interesting analysis, and, I believe, an accurate one.

"I'm not prejudiced, I hate everyone equally"

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I, myself, do cut myself from time to time (it was a lot worse when I was younger). And sometimes there is a point (i.e. depressed, fighting with my girlfriend, thinking about the thing that happened to me in my childhood that made me hate myself) and sometimes there is not. Sometimes pain just feels right to people when nothing else does. Sometimes you need to see blood to bring color back into your life. And sometimes, it's just something to do. But there is no real answer as to why I do it. . .and I'm sure there is no real answer as to why anyone else does it. I thought this movie brought out that point in a great way and it is now one of my favorite movies because it does not degrade self mutilation like almost every other movies involving such subject matter does, but it doesn't condone it either. It just shows someone going through it, but yet does not try to explain it. Just like a person who does self mutilated would if trying to tell a person about their affliction.

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I found your post fascinating. I am very sorry that you have had childhood trauma and believe it or not, I do understand that this practice can actually help you. We humans are very complex and not everything we do can be explained in a way to satisfy everyone in society.
I have re-thought this film and I think my OP was just a reaction ot the anger and frustration brought on by it. I was compelled to watch it again for some reason. I think that De Van was very brave for making it, and for having the 'eff you' attitude that she did as far as coming up with an exact explanation . She actually did explain it, althpough we didn't see it at first.
Thank you for speaking so honestly.

"I'm not prejudiced, I hate everyone equally"

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Not to sound like an ass (because I really have thought about this) but I think these cutters just need more self-worth. They need something to do, something other then their 9-5, something that gives more meaning to their life.

We need to get the message across that cutting is not normal or ok. Just like you say it is a sad affliction. I disagree when you said you liked this film because it did not "degrade self mutilation". I think it did for the people that wanted to see it. You have this women *spoilers* eating her own hand, lying to her boyfriend and her whole life spiraling down. She even crashes her car to cover her flesh wounds. I agree that this film was unbiased in it's production, it certainly didn't attack the cutting "lifestyle" but obviously from just reading the plot you can tell that her life isn't good.

I remember reading a prior IMDB message board where a young girl said she first started when she read an article in some teen magazine about this girl who used to cut herself. The message was probably one against cutting but this mesage brought the idea to her head and she became increasingly fascinated with it then started to experiment. Cutting is like cigarettes. It's bad for you but increasingly "cool" in young society.

Do you think if our civilization wasn't as advanced as it was - if we lived in jungles and farms, working hard, gorwing and foraging for food, hunting wild animals - that we would face this problem of cutting? No, we would be too busy living and trying to survive then to pointlessly cut ourselves.

It's all silly.

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It really doesn't take much thinking to come to the conclusion that many people who self-harm do indeed have low self-worth. The problem that health professionals have been wrestling unsuccessfully with for the best part of a century is how to increase a person's self-worth.

I don't think cutting is regarded as "cool", if this were the case then surely self-harmers wouldn't go to the lengths they typically do to hide their injuries. Self-harm is a private thing, not like smoking, which is mainly a social activity.

As for your last point, in "primitive" societies life is sufficiently harsh that people with low self-esteem probably don't need to self-harm, rather than not having time for it. And anyway, most societies, be they "primitive" or not practice ritualised mutilation in one form or another - circumcision, infibulation, scarring, tatooing, etc.

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I think cutting is cool in the sense that listening to My Chemical Romance or watching Donnie Darko is cool. Sad, tragic...depressing...it's just "cool" to be a tortured soul.

I'm sure some cutters hide it from the world, but a lot of cutters tell people about their problem, or show their wounds in an effort to have people notice it and react.

Scott

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[deleted]

Not to sound like an ass (because I really have thought about this) but I think these cutters just need more self-worth. They need something to do, something other then their 9-5, something that gives more meaning to their life.
Wow, what an excellent post. Finally someone who makes sense. Though I find interesting that you preface your thought by saying you don't mean to sound like an ass, almost as if speaking the common sense truth nowadays (people who cut themselves have low self-esteem and are not okay in any way, shape, or form) might make some people with problems feel bad 'cause they like to think they don't have a problem in the first place.

Do you think if our civilization wasn't as advanced as it was - if we lived in jungles and farms, working hard, gorwing and foraging for food, hunting wild animals - that we would face this problem of cutting? No, we would be too busy living and trying to survive then to pointlessly cut ourselves.
Precisely. People have too much time on their hands, which is why everyone is running around swallowing all kinds of worthless anti-depressants. What they need is a life. Not in the sense of "go out, make friends, party." A REAL life that is less artificial, closer to nature, closer to family and a spiritual awareness of your place in the universe (not necessarily some organized religion, of course; just a reconnection of man with his place in nature).

But, of course, there will always be the weirdos and fractured, damaged children of the modern age saying something sad and misled like, "I cut myself because it is my lifestyle." Ridiculous how tragically all these people have been let down by a society so twisted and depraved and hell-bent on "respecting" every sort of lunacy and deviancy that they have even come to think of their affliction as something to be defended. A crying shame.

--
"Den Gleichen Gleiches, den Ungleichen Ungleiches."

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Cutting and other forms of self mutilation are not always as simple as boredom and depression. They can be linked more to OCD and anxiety. Both of these issues are problems with brain chemistry and really hard to understand.

Cutting is a compulsion that calms down an anxious person. It's definitely not a lifestyle, and those people who are doing it honestly, because they have to, are usually more ashamed of it than anything. If they felt like they could stop it, they would. People who cut for fashion or attention just make people take the real issue less seriously. It's very frustrating for people with this disorder, because it's become such a laughable topic.

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Great analysis BARTNGEN. I liked this movie, but wasn't sure why. I agree with you on all your points and you made things clearer!

"...well, this one goes to 11..."

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To me, the movie was simply a study on a woman's relationship with her body. Esther is a very cerebral person who gets little pleasure from her body and feels detached from it. Experiencing pain from a cut in her leg brings to the surface a feeling of lust for flesh, for her own flesh. The deeper she dives into this new-found source of pleasure, the more her everyday life feels empty and meaningless in comparison. Looking for meaning outside of her body becomes increasingly useless. In the very last shot of the movie, when she's back in the hotel room after a devastating mutilation spree, we are shown a extreme close-up of Esther, zooming out until we see most of her body, then back again to the extreme close-up, then the zoom out again, etc. Esther has recoiled and can't reach out anymore. She had been disconnected from her own flesh for too long, and her reaction was to dive back in, only too deep to find a way out again.

This movie moved me so much. It has changed the way I interact with my body. My situation isn't anything like Esther's, but the movie drove me to get back in touch with my body, my "vessel" if you will. It feels to me like Marina De Van sent out an alarm call, and I heard it.

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Hmmmmm, very interesting. Those are good points. Your interpretation may well be what De Van was trying to say and it also goes along with what I stated regarding her detachment from her body and things in general.

"I'm not prejudiced, I hate everyone equally"

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Just saw the movie. Just read all the posts in this thread. cecilparks, yours is the only post that comes close to the way I saw the movie. To my eyes, this woman felt nothing at all until after the initial accident. She was so used to NOT feeling that she didn't feel that either at first. It was the blood that caught her eye, then the injury that caught her imagination. Injuring her flesh literally brought real feeling into her life. What I saw her doing with her flesh was more akin to making love than anything else. I don't feel sorry for her. I wonder what her journey taught her that I will never learn.
-SP

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Hey, alright.
You're very right about the sexual, lusty side of Esther's self-mutilation. One moment that stood out for me during the movie was during the first hotel room scene, when Esther looks at herself in a mirror. She is bloody, she has pieces of flesh missing from her face, and yet she looks like she's never felt more beautiful and sexy in her entire life.
I must admit I do feel a bit envious of the pleasure she seems to take in this, but I was also terrified. Seeing someone delve so deeply into antisocial behavior might be what's scariest to me in a movie (It reminds me of "Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer", where the main character is also too far gone to be saved, although in a very different way).

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How strange! Some people fail to see the message in some movies when it seems so clear to others. I blame Hollywood for hammering messages to their audience to avoid any critical thinking on their part and reinstate their conservative bourgeois values. It is just another form of cheap lobotomizing propanganda.So this e-mail(I am responding to) is simply not surprising. If you are a little bit knowledgeable in art and art history,life and practice thinking, simply recognizing meaning or absence of it becomes child's play.
The whole movie, there is a constant reference to "details" , yes, that word is constantly mentioned. How hard is it to see that that woman has a hard time (or odd time) relating to the sum of her parts? This movie could easily be called " pieces of me".....the whole society, our modern society being revealed through mechanically separated chickens, meat, consummerism....how women have this ability to hurt their body, because of not being able to relate to that "entity" men have constructed.....This movie has meanings jumping at you like spiders in the Temple of Doom..So, how can that be difficult to understand, unless one is self-absorbed in Hollywood "cheeze" like Troy, fastfood and ...crystal meth.
I hope I could clear things out for you.It is also never a good thing to be easily amused and entertained. It never was a proof of taste.
Nathalie

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Its so heartening to read some inteligent comments about this film. So many people i know who saw it dissmissed it because they refused to think about it, or because it didn't have a 'message' as such. But then thats the beauty of the film.

I felt it was indeed an exceptionaly relevant and important work which commented very much on the current state of detachment and reassesment of self. It was fascinating for me as my research at the moment is focused on the realities of (sorry for sounding wanky) the 'postmodern condition', and the film reminded me very much of the steryotyped goth rock 'the pain is real' answer to, why do you self harm? I found the film profoundly moving, and even after only seeing it once find myself refering to its total coolness and detachment in many of the papers i've given on subjectivites and critical theory.

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[deleted]

But, that's the whole idea of the film....that De Van is under no obligation to explain something for which there IS no explanation. In this case, this angle is not the cop out it usually is simply because of the mysterious obsession regarding any kind of self-mutilation
And the gory visuals are the LAST thing in this film that I cared for.
if you watch it again, (I assume a non-possibility in your case) Esther's puzzlement at what she is doing to herself becomes more evident. She seems to have succumbed completely to a strange embarassing thing that even she has no idea as to the reasons for.

"I'm not prejudiced, I hate everyone equally"

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Some very good analysis here and THAT is the point. To think. Hollweird has desensitized the American masses to critical THINKING, serving up instead a fluff, predictable, bland, mindless and politically correct palette of sh*tty movies.

A movie like "Dans ma peau" will find a very small audience in America, but, nonetheless, here we are! One point of the film's main character was that she didn't FEEL anything. She cuts herself and doesn't feel it. She didn't know why either. Topics of self-obsession, self-indulgence (literally, too) and also just pure selfishness are brought to the forefront.

Her boyfriend, he didn't feel anything either, and he wasn't LOOKING at her as a real person, but more like a business partner to advance his own status. He and she are both trapped in the materialistic, media driven world of yuppiehood and couplehood. They are NUMB. She cuts herself to FEEL something other than the media directed life everyone lives and which feelings are legitimate and others not.

The film is satire on the modern world. The filmmaker is focusing on self-indulgence and taking it to the limit, why we do the things we do, why we fall into boredom when we have every modern convenience, how people in relationships prefer sweet lies to uncomfortable truths and thereafter the ugle consequences of such pathology. We all, at many times in our lives, wished to shed our skin and start all over, but we're numb....and we like it.

Watch this movie twice. It's a little hard in some scenes but the message is driven home...with the point of a knife. Brilliant film.

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Read Dennis Lim's Village Voice review if you want to illuminate yourself about this movie (particularly those who didn't like it or "get it".)
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0345/lim.php

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[deleted]

Good post. A minimalist film that condenses the 'onslaught of data' into the visual control of watching one's own wounding, being both predator and prey, the freedom of loneliness without analysis, being apart from the age of (fill in the blank)---- the movie is it's own answer and provides the medium for it's question.

As viewers we absorb the film visually, then take the two hours that's become ours and pierce it's surface for the fleshy middle of time passed. We come back with less of ourselves each time and more of someone, something else. Killing ourselves to live as something apart. We've no legs, but we've analysis. We've not head, but we've ideas. We've no mouth, but our shaky hands find a keyboard, hit a website, and birth conversation, communication. We leave an imprint of data, a character string of struggle. We live.

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