MovieChat Forums > The Passion of the Christ (2004) Discussion > Papal Infallibility

Papal Infallibility

posted 7 years ago by knight-in-black-leather
17 replies | jump to latest

Many people hear Catholics speak about papal infallibility and assume we are saying that means the Pope can do no wrong and is sinless, which is absolutely not the case. I saw this article and wanted to post it so those who disagree with or don't fully comprehend papal infallibility, can have a better understanding of why Catholics accept the Pope's teachings on matters of Christianity. Enjoy!

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CHALLENGE

“The pope is a sinful man who makes mistakes. Therefore, he can’t be infallible.”

DEFENSE

The premise of this challenge is true; the conclusion is false.

* * *

The pope is a sinful man, but this does not lead to the conclusion that he can’t be infallible. Sinlessness—sometimes called impeccability—operates in a different sphere than infallibility does.

Sinlessness is a quality pertaining to the moral order: it means not making a mistake in the sphere of one’s behavior. Infallibility is a quality pertaining to the doctrinal order: it deals with not making a mistake when proclaiming a doctrine.

The quality of sinlessness is not required for infallibility. One can do sinful things and yet have an accurate understanding. Solomon was supremely wise (see 1 Kings 4:29–34), yet he also sinned greatly (see 1 Kings 11:4–10). The most evil beings there are have an accurate knowledge of God: “Even the demons believe—and shudder” at the prospect of divine judgment (James 2:19).

More to the point, the very first pope—Peter—was a sinful man, but this did not stop him from writing two inspired letters (1 and 2 Peter). Inspiration is a greater charism than infallibility, and it includes infallibility; therefore, even a sinful man like Peter could teach infallibly by God’s grace.

It is also possible for a pope to make mistakes, including of a doctrinal nature—just not when he is teaching under the charism of infallibility.

Again we may look to Peter as an example. His understanding of Christian doctrine was not always perfect. Thus, when Jesus foretold future events, Peter sometimes did not understand or accept the truth of our Lord’s statements (see Matthew 16:21–23, 26:31–35). However, that did not stop him from later writing the inspired, and thus infallible, letters 1 and 2 Peter.

We therefore see that a pope is capable of making mistakes both of the moral and doctrinal order and yet still exercise the charism of infallibility.

God guides the pope, like every validly ordained minister, in the exercise of his ministry—just as he guided Peter. But this does not mean the pope is continuously infallible. The Church does not claim he is, and it would be attacking a straw man to inflate the doctrine of papal infallibility beyond what the Church claims.

http://www.catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/why-a-sinful-pope-can-be-infallible

This is a faithful saying...Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

[–] Navaros 7 years ago

don't fully comprehend papal infallibility

Oh my KiBL, why do you do this?

No one ever needs to comprehend anything about 'papal infallibility' other than to know:

First, and most importantly, that idea is blasphemous, heretical, false, apostasy, evil, Satanic, and/or any other negative word that exists.

Second, that idea was invented by ungodly men as part of fabricating for themselves an illegitimate hierarchy of power and obscene amounts of personal riches.

teaching under the charism of infallibility.

...which is fabricated hokum that has zero basis in the Bible. The only thing it has any basis in is the fabricated hierarchy I just mentioned.

And Peter is still aghast every time you defame his name by calling him a 'pope.'

God guides the pope, like every validly ordained minister,

The pope is certainly not ordained by God. If anyone ordained him, it's Satan.

And if God was guiding him, then he would promote righteousness instead of evil. But he doesn't, because he is Satan's puppet through and through.

this does not mean the pope is continuously infallible

So now you are cherry-picking particular moments when he is infallible? Presumably so that you can sweep his overt & blatantly obvious blasphemies against God under the rug by dismissing them as his "sinful moments"? That's quite convenient.

not making a mistake when proclaiming a doctrine.

So KiBL, yes or no, was the pope making mistakes when he proclaimed his evil false doctrines that 'abortion' is fine, Christians should stop speaking against it, believing in evolution over God's Word is fine, atheists can go to Heaven as long as they 'follow their conscience,' etc.?

"Science creates fictions to explain facts" – Gilman

[–] graham-167 7 years ago

There is no such thing as an infallible human being.

--
If I could stop a rapist from raping a child I would. That's the difference between me and god.

[–] marty-130-840283 7 years ago

God guides the pope, like every validly ordained minister,

The pope is certainly not ordained by God. If anyone ordained him, it's Satan.

The Bible does not speak of the concept of a Pope. That is an invention by man.

Christianity, is a direct relationship to God, nothing in between (priest, popes, confession box, hail marys) its all man made.

[–] Rumble_McSkirmish 7 years ago

Christianity is all man made.

Correct

Panzer vor!

[–] Navaros 7 years ago

nothing in between (priest, popes, confession box, hail marys)

And let us not forget what is the most important thing of all to the pope and all the underlings in his false hierarchy: the donation box.

The main reason for popes fabricating and forever perpetuating the blasphemous & self-aggrandizing myth of infallibility for themselves is to mislead God's flock into believing that the pope speaks for God, with the goal of using that deception to hold power over them, the most important of which is to compel them to donate their money to him in the name of God so that he can become obscenely filthy rich.

"Science creates fictions to explain facts" – Gilman

[–] Navaros 7 years ago

Oh, by the way, here is a verse that directly proves why Peter grimaces in abhorrence every time KiBL or anyone else defames his name by calling him a pope:

And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

@KiBL, best to be like Peter, and stop worshiping false idols of popes. Peter himself condemns that practice in the verse that I've just quoted.

"Science creates fictions to explain facts" – Gilman

[–] jmarkoff2 7 years ago

The Pope is a Mithraic syncretism. During the post-Constantine era, Christianity adapted elements of Mithraism, taking the chief Mithraist, painting him in Christian colours, and calling him the Pope.

[–] Rumble_McSkirmish 7 years ago

There's plenty of things Christianity has picked up on that they all worship or celebrate. I'd advise you to also pay attention to those.
Christmas for example, no decor, trees, actually don't even celebrate Christ's birth then since that was a pagan holiday christianity exploited.
Easter's another good one with the bunny, eggs, and all that stuff.

Also you can kinda thank the catholic church for their riches since this is stuff Martel was using to pay his army that finally turned back the muslim invasion of western Europe. But eh, whatever

Panzer vor!

[–] mamu2 7 years ago

Jeremiah 10: 2-4 "Thus says the LORD: Do not learn the way of the Gentiles; do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the Gentiles are dismayed at them. For the customs of the peoples are futile; for one cuts a tree from the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with nails and hammers so that it will not topple.

[–] Rumble_McSkirmish 7 years ago

But hoo boy, you BETTER follow everything else to the letter, unless it disagrees with you.
If anything can be said of Christians, they are well acquainted with hypocrisy

Panzer vor!

[–] physics101 7 years ago

It is also possible for a pope to make mistakes, including of a doctrinal nature—just not when he is teaching under the charism of infallibility.

Ok, kibl. Serious question. How do you know when he is teaching under the charism of infallibility"? Do his eyes light up? Does his head spin 360? Does he levitate?

And don't say it is a matter of faith, because that is NO ANSWER, particularly in something like this. You claim the Pope is infallible in matters of doctrine, but how do you as a practicing Catholic know "when he is teaching under the charism of infallibility" or when he is teaching under the the charism of alcohol? or whores? or politics? or greed or anything else?

Religion - the original can of Ever-So-Much-More-So.

[–] AngryNegroMan 7 years ago

THE POPE isn't even a term found in scripture. Peter was never called a Pope.

Catholics add crap that isn't even there and other dumb sheeple blindly accept it because they're too lazy to read for themselves

[–] marty-130-840283 7 years ago

THE POPE isn't even a term found in scripture. Peter was never called a Pope.

correct. The concept of a Pope is not Biblical, its a man made idea.

[–] Rumble_McSkirmish 7 years ago

Neither is evangelical or fundamentalist, yet you exist.

Or trinity for that matter, yet you decide to die on that hill repeatedly because you don't understand context or language

Panzer vor!

[–] loudisthelord 7 years ago

The trinity is PAGAN. There is no biblical trinity!

[–] Flame_of_Udun_49 7 years ago

THE POPE isn't even a term found in scripture.

Actually, it is - but not in a way complementary to the Catholic Church. It's Latin: papa from Greek: πάππας pappas, a child's word for "father."

Matthew 23:9 "And call no one your father on the earth; for One is your Father, who is in heaven."

http://tinyurl.com/hxoedgj

[–] loudisthelord 7 years ago

Call no one on earth Father, therefore "JESUS" IS NOT GOD