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In the book how did Dumbledore know it was Crouch before?

posted 9 years ago by Shaw_shank
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In the book he stuns Crouch while he's still disguised as Moody. Then he tells Snape to go get Winky from the kitchens, since Crouch was her master. And then after that Crouch turns into himself when the potion wore off. Why did Dumbledore ever suspect Crouch was in disguise? How could that have been his first guess? He had to have assumed it was, because he made Snape get Winky. But there was not a single ounce of evidence before Crouch turned back into himself. I know Dumbledore is a genius, but Crouch was such a random guess. He had no way of knowing Crouch escaped Azkaban.

[–] sidgirl 9 years ago

Good question!

I believe this is better explained in the book, but my memory is a tad fuzzy there. My best guess/AFAIR is that Winky was fired by Mr. Crouch because of her being caught wandering around (well, stunned after wandering around) when the Dark Mark is cast at the Quiddich World Cup. Dumbledore sees how OTT Mr. Crouch Sr.'s response to this is, and probably wonders why--and suspects there may have been something else behind Crouch's rage. Also, in the book the Marauder's Map tells Harry that "Bartemius Crouch" is on the grounds at Hogwarts, and Harry tells Dumbledore this, when Dumbledore knows the elder Crouch isn't there (I'm pretty sure that's the biggest clue; I can't remember if that's in the movie or not).

When Moody takes Harry away from the crowd after the Tournament, Dumbledore knows Moody isn't Moody (the real Moody would never have taken Harry from Dumbledore's sight). That, added to the Marauder's Map clue and the fact that the elder Crouch is missing, gives Dumbledore at least enough evidence to strongly suspect that Barty Crouch Jr. has been masquerading as Mad-Eye Moody.

Hope that helps; I'm going to watch this movie again tomorrow (we're currently watching them all with our kids) so I'll try to come back and clarify further.

*****
People said love was blind, but what they meant was that love blinded them.

[–] SharkNomad 9 years ago

Crouch, like Wormtail, is presumed dead in the books until the point of his revealing and the truth is only known by Crouch sr, Winky, Bertha Jorkins and later, Voldemort and Wormtail who broke through the Memory Charm Crouch sr placed on her after she discovered that Crouch was alive.

It was thought that Crouch died in Azkaban after being convicted of the torture of Neville's parents. Dumbledore believes this and is even unsure of Crouch's guilt - the trial in the book is very different as Crouch pleads his innocence, cries and screams for mercy whereas in the film, he is clearly and proudly guilty.

Dumbledore does not know it is Crouch because he, like everyone else, believes him to be dead. He does, however, know that the man who took Harry away is not Alastor Moody for luring Harry away from Dumbledore and also the fact that the guilty party regarding the cup must have been someone in the school.

Crouch being revealed, I think, is as much of a surprise to Dumbledore as anyone else.

[–] sidgirl 8 years ago

If Dumbledore didn't know who was masquerading as Moody, he wouldn't have made a point of summoning Winky from the kitchens; why do that? "There's a house-elf who needs to witness the unmasking of someone she's probably never seen in her life, and with whom she has no connection, just because," doesn't make much sense. Dumbledore summons Winky because he knows Barty Crouch Jr. is about to be revealed.

The presumption of death probably wouldn't be quite as big a deal to Dumbledore, because in addition to being concerned about the return of Voldemort and what it means for Azkaban (re the possibility of escapes, since Dementors are on Voldemort's "side," historically), and to knowing that escape from Azkaban is possible, he also knows that Wormtail was supposed to be dead but really wasn't--he would have considered this possibility, which is probably why the memories he was examining in the Pensieve were of Death Eater trials, especially Crouch Junior's. If he's certain Crouch Junior is dead, he wouldn't have been considering him as a possible suspect.

Either way, the clues he's given throughout the book--Crouch Sr.'s rage at and firing of Winky; the possibility that a House Elf could/would cast the Dark Mark--which would lead to wondering who she might have been with who did cast it; Bertha Jorkins's disappearance (which troubled Dumbledore quite a bit); the fact that Crouch Sr. shows up raving about needing to warn Dumbledore how he's "done something terrible," his son, Bertha Jorkins, and Voldemort, only to disappear immediately; and probably one or two other clues that either I've forgotten or we as readers weren't privy to--are enough for him to put it together. Dumbledore's very smart, and it's clear that he's been making connections between a lot of seemingly random incidents and bits of information for a while when he and Harry talk after they "leave" the Pensieve. He's not at all surprised to see Crouch Jr. when the Polyjuice Potion wears off.

*****
People said love was blind, but what they meant was that love blinded them.

[–] SharkNomad 8 years ago

This is true, however, Dumbledore has only put this together since "Moody" took Harry out of his sight after Harry returned with Cedric's body. He does not know or suspect Crouch until this point. I believe it is at this point, he puts together Crouch's ramblings when Harry discovered him and who the "servant" might be. He believes, like everyone else until that point, that Crouch died in Azkaban.

He was examining the "biggest" trials for connections. Karkaroff's was big because he sold out everyone to save his own skin. Bagman's was big as he was major sporting celebrity. Crouch's was big because he was condemned by his own father for the most outrageous crime the wizarding world had seen. Although I do agree that he was searching for connections, I don't think he suspected Crouch was alive per se and even if he did, that he was masquerading as Moody. It's clear he emphatically trusts "Moody" right up until the point where he removed him from Dumbledore's sight.

[–] sidgirl 8 years ago

It doesn't matter that he only put it all together when "Moody" removes Harry from the scene, though. He still puts it together before Crouch Jr. is revealed, and thus the reveal is not "as much of a surprise to Dumbledore as anyone else." He knows who will be revealed when the Polyjuice Potion wears off; he knows it's Crouch Jr. masquerading as Moody.

He knew something was off from the very beginning, and that some very powerful dark wizard/Death Eater had infiltrated Hogwarts grounds; he's known that for the entire book/movie, because somebody put Harry's name in the Cup and he knows it wasn't Harry. I personally believe he's at least considered the possibility that Crouch Jr. is alive somehow, because there were too many hints and clues ("Bartemius Crouch" on the Marauder's Map, remember? Bartemius Crouch stealing Polyjuice Potion ingredients from Snape's storeroom? That's a HUGE clue) for the thought not to have crossed his mind, but that's immaterial to the point here, really. Whether he suspected Crouch Jr. was alive all along or not, there's no question that he knows who will be revealed when the Polyjuice Potion wears off--his having Winky brought to his office is absolute proof of that. There is no reason on earth why he would have summoned Winky, unless he knew he was about to see Barty Crouch Jr.

*****
People said love was blind, but what they meant was that love blinded them.

[–] Shaw_shank 8 years ago

Dumbledore didn't know about the map, or Crouch's name being on it. That's completely meaningless.

[–] Mentrilo 8 years ago

There were a lot of clues that something was up. I think we have to assume, given everything that happened in previous books, and if we can leap forward a bit, at the end of OotP, Dumbledore is aware of a lot of things going on at the school for which he has no reason to know. In OotP he speaks of being fully aware of Harry's adventures, in CoS he is aware Harry is and the others are under the invisibility cloak in Hagrid's hut, despite there being nothing to hint at him being told or seeing clues. He just knew.

If we carry that through, the idea that things go on in the wizarding world and he knows about it, even if we can't explain how, we then need to look at what we (and dumbledore) know:

-Voldemort is working on coming back
-Someone hoodwinked the goblet with serious dark magic.
-Someone at Hogwarts stole ingredients for polyjuice potion this year (dumbledore would be aware the stolen ingredients this year were not the same as two years previous)
-Dumbledore is (probably) aware of the news of Crouch Jr's supposed death in azkaban, and also aware of the limitations of Dementors' sight
-Crouch Sr's previous devotion to ending Voldemort and his followers, would make him an unlikely candidate to be working for Voldemort, but he was clearly somehow linked to it (winky at the cup, winky with the dark mark, crouch sr looking where winky had been when stunned, crouch sr's behaviour in general (working via letters etc), crouch sr's behaviour when harry met him as he was breaking free of the imperius curse)
-Dumbledore was clearly looking at the Crouches (when Harry discovers the pensieve he is looking at Crouch and Crouch jr related memories - the other followers in those memories were all accounted for)
-With so many guests at the school, a trusting nature, and a convincing performance by Crouch jr as Moody, suggests the above led to Dumbledore suspecting Crouch jr, but not being able to identify who he was masquerading as until the moment he took him away from the maze.

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