MovieChat Forums > Transufômâ: Maikuron densetsu (2002) Discussion > what is so difficult about making transf...

what is so difficult about making transformers not suck?



i dont understand why people stray from what made the G1 transformers tight. all the most recent attempts have been horrible. robots in disguise and armada are ridiculous. transformers is not about humans, or cute little robots, its about lots of autobots and lots of decepticons fighting. the 90 min armada was a joke: the only fighting to speak of was some weak wrestling and retreating, the transformers apparently dont like to shoot each other anymore. and the story was really about the kids, and the cute little minicons, i saw a total of SEVEN transformers in 90 minutes. humans are a part of the show, as spike and the other G1s used to be, but they shouldnt be a distraction. if the creators want to make the transformers so nonviolent and passive, they should just close up shop, because these attempts are killing any future chance of some real good transformers cartoons.

maybe the guys who are doing the new he-man need to give the guys in charge of armada some advice.

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I could not agree with you more. Very insightful post, especially mentioning the new He-Man, cause that is an amazing improvment.

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Hasbro seem to be obessed with letting the Japanese make new Transformer's series ever since bringing Car Robots over as RID, and they always hire terible translators to translate it to english...

Have you watched the subbed version of "The Legend Of Micron, Micron Legends first episode?

It's basically the same animation and story as Armada obiviously, but whoever made the sub did a great job at Translating it from Japanese, there's no stupid voice over at the begining of the war between the Autobots and Decepticons but a truce was declared when both sides where caught in a dead lock, and decided to build a ship for the mini-cons and send them off into space, no insted the tell the story as is should have been tranlated for Armada.

The Micron's (Mini-Con's) ship is under attack while escaping from Cybertron by the Destron's (Decepticons) Flagship (which you seen happening in Armada, but is not mentioned or even told that way) the Cybertron group (Autobots) are desperately trying to cover the micron's ship escape by attackign the Destron flagship and thus allowing the micron's to escape, even the dialog and names of the kids in Micron legend is differn't Rad is called Ladd, Carlos is still Carlos, Alexis is Alexa, Fred is called Jim, Billy is still Billy.

but there's no whiney crap about Jim's (Fred) blood sugar level or how his doctor told him that Billy isn't the boss of him crap, even Megatron's dialog is differen't when he first turns up in sted of saying "You have something of mine" he say's "Give that back, that Micron is mine, I'll have it returned to me!"

I think Hasbro have intentionally screwed up with Armada on purpose, they generally don't seem to want people to enjoy the show as much as they would if it was translated properly.

Course there's the other issues of whoever Aeon hires to do the animation, which was execellent in the first two episodes but by episode 3 "Base" it was horrendus, Dong Wu (A Korean Based Animation Company) who do the animation for Master Of The Universe do an excellent job on the new He Man, some parts are part CGI part cel animation but it looks simply amazing, and of course He-Man is written for a western audience unlike Armada so it doesn't need to be translated, and it doesn't require dubbing either, when you hear, David Kaye, Gary Chalk, Scott McNeil and the other VA's on Armada, they sound like they really aren't enjoying doing the work on Armada, but when you here chalk and mcneil on MOTU they really do better work when the voic acting isn't dubbed, you here Chalks man at arms voice and he sounds exactly like Optimus Primal on Beast Wars, and Scott McNeil's sean connery accent for Stratos is excellent an enjoyable, unlike their voice on Armada which are ruined by the horrible electronics the dubbing company have added to their voices.

My point is this, if you make a series in Japan and aim it for a Japanese audience then try and brin it over to the west it's only going to cost you more time, effort and money than it would writing and producing a Transformers Series in North America like G1, Beast Wars and Beast Machine where, now I don't know about Beast Machine but Beast Wars and Generation 1 where both a huge success, G1 being the found of the Transformers market and Beast Wars reviving it back in 1996 for near death (which was caused by Hasbro with their stupid attempt to pawn people off with the recycled Generation 1 episode and called in Generation 2) and they thought they could market the G2 toyline with major success without even bothering to make an actual original G2 Cartoon?

Hasbro in the future should just have Transformer's series made for a western Audience made over in the west, hve it animated over in Japan/Korea but have the series written for a western audince so there's no translation error's (which is Armada's biggest problem) let the Japanese make their own Transformers series for their own country like they have done previously with BWII Beast War Neo and Car Robots.

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Ouch! Now you're just getting plain old cruel (she says, with tongue in cheek).

I’m a freelance translator and dubbing script (ADR) writer who’s been working full time translating and writing anime for the past ten years or so.

I share quite a few of your disappointments with the series. But your arguments are based on numerous incorrect assumptions of the post-production process.

When a US or Japanese company who owns the North American rights to a show commissions a North American studio or post production house to do a dub, there are many factors which determine the outcome of the dub and how closely, if at all, it resembles the original script. I can assure you though, it has nothing to do with the translators being lousy, or the writer having taken too many liberties, just on a whim. The client has a lot at stake, so naturally they not only call all the shots, they also have many approval stages during the entire dubbing process, to make sure the show is progressing the way they want.

For starters, sometimes the animation is partly or completely recut, at the client’s request. Maybe the client wants to give certain characters more or less air time. Or perhaps they want more fight sequences. So the animation itself may end up looking nothing like the original.

The client with the show’s NA rights then either provides the dubbing/post production company with a translation, or commissions it to the dubbing company, who contracts it out to one of their translators. Side note: a translation is a translation is a translation. It has to be literal, it simply cannot be improvised or rewritten dialog. It just doesn't happen. Anyway, the dubbing company then sends the literal translation (whether done in house or by the client) to a writer. The literal translation also goes to subbing, where it is closely followed, with minor adjustments made because of timing issues.

This is where things get tricky. The client–not the dubbing company or the writer or the translator–sets out very precise guidelines for how they want the show to play for the North American audience. The client is the one with the rights, remember, so they’re the ones calling the shots. Although they’ll generally listen to minor concerns outlined by the post production company, they just want someone to give them what they want. If we were to say, “hey, your animation sucks”, or “the original Japanese story line is totally lame”, then guess what? They’d take their business elsewhere. Me and all the other people in post production are doing this for a living. Kids to feed, bills to pay, blah blah blah. So other than minor concerns or suggestions, we’re paid not to criticize the outcome, and we certainly don’t have much of a say in the final product. If we are offered to work on a show we think totally, totally sucks, then (assuming we have any integrity and a bit of money in the bank), we turn it down. Otherwise, we bite our collective tongues and give 'em what they want. It's the only way to survive in this business.

For the dubs, some clients want to follow the literal translation almost to the tee (with the understanding that minor changes must be made to fit the lip flaps). Other clients want a complete rewrite. They actually tell the writer, “throw the literal translation script out the window, and give us something completely new”. That's how you end up with "blood sugar level" type discrepancies with the original Japanese script. The client has asked for it. And, at many, many stages during post production, has approved it.

So, in short, I wanted to say that I take exception to your “lousy translator” theory.
With any show that’s been dubbed, there’s a good chance the dub has little to do with the literal translation–at the client’s request. Mostly though, I wanted to let you know how it is that some of these discrepancies with the dubs and originals come to be.

Now, back to my hopefully-not-too-lousy translation I must go.

Kathleen

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The question raised in the subject of this thread is an interesting one and it bears asking. What, really, is so difficult about making Transformers not suck?

SHORT ANSWER: Hasbro doesn't care.

LONG ANSWER: Hasbro doesn't have to care because the quality of the show is not by logical necessity related to the commercial viability of the toyline. Hasbro has bought into the annoying otaku mentality that upholds all things Japanese as being somehow inherently superior to anything produced by or in the West. To a certain extent, I see what they're doing. With the popularity of that insipid show "Pokémon" and the legions of even worse clones that followed it, Hasbro et al obviously saw that kids were going for Japanese stuff. However, they failed to see the forest for the trees. Kids weren't attracted to things like Pokemon by mere virtue of the fact that they were Japanese...kids were attracted to them because they were marketed well. Where the products happened to come from was largely irrelevant, but they just went ahead anyway. Of course, Hasbro is hardly unique in this regard, but for every single success, Hasbro seems to have at least three failures.

Hasbro and Takara are toy companies and their promotional materials (i.e., the shows) will obviously be geared towards the biggest toy consumers: kids (and by extension their monied parents). The basic idea is that kids really only care about the big picture and that they appreciate being treated to 30 minutes of mindless disctraction once a week. So they do what they can to get their names out with as few costs as possible. If you've seen the Armada show (and considering you're posting things on the message board for it, I'm assuming you have), it's pretty clear that very few costs went into this crap. The show was basically the pure essence of Hell, but Armada's toyline was one of the most successful for the year of 2003. Who's going to tell them they're wrong with results like that?

"To think is to say no."

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Hasbro has rarely ever "known," and they're really only now beginning to realize the value of the fan.

Back in the good ol' days (which had flaws of their own, as you surely remember) Hasbro saw no reason not to move ol' Optimus Prime out of the way to usher in a new wave of toys (Hot Rod, et al.) They were just as surprised as anyone about the fan outcry at his death in the movie. To them, it was just a business decision.

Even Peter Cullen, the voice actor behind the voice of Prime, didn't realize the impact of his work until just a few years ago when he attended his first Botcon. (Hasbro, in their infinite brilliance, was also slow to join in on the Botcon thing.)

The good thing is that now, after all this time, they've caught on. They've realized that most of their best-selling recent toys have borne the names of Optimus Prime and other past characters. They realize the adult buyer is purchasing just as much or perhaps more as the child. Thus, we have lines like Alternators, the occasional G1 throwback in the Cybertron series, Masterpiece series, 20th Anniversary Prime, the Titanium series, and the fabulous new Classics line.

The problem is there's been no corresponding fiction to go along with them all. If you're looking for cartoons to solve that, you'll likely be left cold, because the rules for kids' cartoons have been idiot-ed up a lot more than they were back in our day. And Hasbro is not quite to the point of being willing to create an adult cartoon. One might look toward the upcoming theatrical movie. But for now, the best accompanying fiction to be found is quite simply within the pages of recent Transformers comic books. Apart from that, I recommend the better of the fanfiction authors who are to be found on the web.

Or make your own stuff up. Invariably, it will be better.

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