MovieChat Forums > Dot the I (2003) Discussion > The 'The 'Twist' not believable***SPOILE...

The 'The 'Twist' not believableSPOILE RS

posted 18 years ago by olafco03
13 replies | jump to latest

I didn't like the final twist, the whole Carmen gets her revenge and framing Tom and Theo, because it didn't seem real/plausible. A lot of people disliked the movie but didn't present a mature argument why, I can sense why they disliked it though, the ending just killed the movie for me as well.
My reasons for why I didn't think the ending was believable are many. For starters if someone does what Ford/Barnaby did that gives you the right to kill him? I think it’s a farfetched judgment, I can see people arguing this one though. Also Carmen has to be an excellent shooter to be able to aim under pressure yet remain virtually evasive, again farfetched. There is a lot of things that fell on luck for the scheme to occur as it did: the fact that Tom and Theo were video taping in the first place, the fact that they had technical difficulties, that nobody saw Carmen shoot, that they didn't hear the gun shots from her direction, that Theo and Tom didn't panic & ran after hearing the gunshots just like everyone else, that Theo didn't realize that Carmen slip a gun into his pocket (must be as dumb as rocks), that they were so dumb that they are just going to let themselves be falsely prosecuted for a murder they didn't commit! If I were falsely accused for a murder I would tell them to strap me up to a lie detector or something! I can go on about 20 more things but I don't want to be redundant. I'll just open up the floor to you guys, I'm interested in what your opinions are.

Pardon the mistakes and grammatical errors it's 3am.

[–] n1ckwo1f 18 years ago

well first off lie detectors are not allowed in a court of law. and second i don't want to sound like i'm yelling but you need to stop putting so much thought into the movie. and also remember everyone thinks differently so she could of had mental illness in the past. just cause it ain't in the subtxt doesn't mean it's not there. but again i feel people are putting way to much realisim into movies these days. they are here for our entertainment not for us to try and scientifically prove everything incorrect.

[–] me22 18 years ago

Pretentious. Absurd. Not entertaining. Those are three reasons not to like this movie.

It's like poor quality speakers that go "thump, thump". Sure it catches your attention, but five minutes later you realize that you've got a headache.

This film doesn't keep you guessing at all, and you don't identify for even a minute with ANY of the characters. I think they should have watched Memento a few more times to see how it's done.

[–] saberlee44 18 years ago

Why does she need to "stop putting so much thought" into the movie. Isn't that why these boards exist? Isn't that the fun of watching films for many? I don't disagree with your point that everything in a movie does not have to be "scientifically" correct, but sometimes suspension of belief is easy; other times it's not, esp. if the entire movie followed logically up to a point.

What bothers me most is scolding the person who wrote this post rather than simply presenting your opinion. You DO sound like you are yelling. You sound like you are saying that your way of watching films (and reacting to them) is far superior to the way of the person writing the post.

Just present your point of view and don't put down a person for the way they think or analyze something, nor should you assume they don't know how to watch films or what movies are "there for."

And while I didn't think about the ending in as much detail, I found it jarring and out of sync with the rest of the film. It just wasn't believable to me and for different reasons which I won't go into now.

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] tolchock 18 years ago

What killed it for me was seeing Kit suddenly being an immoral twat. He was quite likeable throughout: his hesitation to signing the contract, his motivations for signing the contract. He's a nice kid, in contrast to Barnaby, who was born with a silver mallet in his mouth.

What would have worked better is if Kit and Carmen did not reunite toward the end. It seems too Double Indemnity, without the proper elements that would have led up to it. Carmen's character is weak, I think, not strong. Unfortunately, she's not a very well-written character. Her violent outbursts stems from an abusive past, but that's what they are, outbursts. In the previous instances where she hit or hurt something/someone, it wasn't premeditated. And you can expect that, her facial expression changes, she means business when she comes at you like that.

That's why I think her killing Barnaby wasn't realistic. It was too out-of-character. Nothing in the film would have led us to the scene where she liberates her self from her past (essentially). What's more, I don't quite understand why she went back to Kit, given that he too had a part in this. Now, I know all you women are going to cite Gael's good looks, which, for me would also be a good incentive to go back to him. But if she was really angry at this whole schema, she wouldn't have anything to do with him (I wouldn't, despite Gael's good looks). Unless, she doesn't have any principles, or she doesn't know what she really wants.

Waiting for the 15 minute sequel: she double crosses Kit, and he dies.

I would have preferred if Kit had pulled the trigger on Barnaby. Maybe I'm just a spiteful curmudgeon, who can't appreciate a "love story" with a jolly-good ending.

«Nothing to say?»
Not with a gun pointed at my head.»
«Is that a principle?»
«A habit.»

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Darcsyde01 17 years ago

I did like the movie, somewhat, and found the ending totally in the realm of believability.
"For starters if someone does what Ford/Barnaby did that gives you the right to kill him? I think it’s a farfetched judgment,..." Well people have been offing folks right and left for less, so, it may not be right...but it happens.
" Carmen has to be an excellent shooter to be able to aim under pressure yet remain virtually evasive, again farfetched...." Again, not so much. Remember a few things. First, Carmen is from the streets and had an abusive boyfriend..I've know more than one or two ladies like that who learned how to shoot. Also, remember some time had passed until the awards, and her and Kit had obviously put alot of thougt into it...so who's to say she wasn't getting some practise?
"the fact that Tom and Theo were video taping in the first place,..." This is all a matter of knowing the nature of people. Barnaby was a ego-maniac..of course he's want his greatest moment to be taped! It all plays into his vanity.
" the fact that they had technical difficulties..." Again..knowing thier nature..you have to figure they'd hose it up...they're idiots! Plus, maybe the camera was messed with to scew up the focus.
"that nobody saw Carmen shoot, that they didn't hear the gun shots from her direction," That's why Kit stodd far away from Carmen, so attention woud be solely on him. Standing straight with a big gun out for all to see..it's a shoo-in that all eyes would be on him. Also he had a bigger gun than her little popgun looking thing..his makes a bigger noise, so if fired at the smae time, his would almost mask hers.
" Theo and Tom didn't panic & ran after hearing the gunshots just like everyone else...." Again..it's knowing their nature..they figured that once the shooting started, if they got the shot..it's be fame and fortune fore them..just like some real life amatures with cameras out there who, no matter what's blowing up around them...keep their cameras rolling,..maybe not always on the subject, and lmose never in fcus throughout..but roll they do. Kit and Carmen were simply counting on that.
"Theo didn't realize that Carmen slip a gun into his pocket (must be as dumb as rocks), ..." EXACTLY!!! She knew that, and played to it.
And finally, "they are just going to let themselves be falsely prosecuted for a murder they didn't commit! If I were falsely accused for a murder I would tell them to strap me up to a lie detector or something!...." They really didn't "allow" anything They were caught with the murder weapon, with Theo's prints on it, and their voices on tape after the shooting going, "Did you get the shot?" "Yeah!" "Good!" and then the shot of Theo's hnd holding the gun. Add to the fact these boneheads can give a reasonable explination on how all this occured...not a cop or court in all of Europe would buy it.
Now, that said, only two things bothered me a tich...ONE: Carmen is using a .25 automatic "Saturday Night Special which wouldn't blow thta big of a hole in anything..t best it might hve just pissed Barnaby off ;)
And TWO: The fact that the police, in spite of having a air tight case against the Twit Twins..didn't think so do a test for GSR (Gun Shot Residue) on Theo's hands. It' pretty much SOP here, and I'm almoaat sure the same goes for London.
But, in spite of that, and the fact I kinda knew Barnaby was up to no-good from the get-go, I liked this film

[–] olafco03 17 years ago

Very well said madklingon1, I really appreciate your strong counter arguments put in a polite manner.
Yet I would like to mention that I believe the weakness of this film comes from the badly written screenplay. There are many flaws in this script that are obvious to many people. This reason is why many people feel this movie is pretentious, like the feeling you get when you find out you got ripped off after buying something from an infomercial. This is at least the feeling I see arise in most people who didn't like this film. I deduce this reasoning from posts, such as the ones on this board made by mechanomotor, tolchock, me22, and even you (madklingon1).
You noticed some things that you didn't like, like many people who didn't like this movie for other reasons, it mostly boils down to the screenplay. There are so many holes in this script it completely makes this movie seem awkward. I'll admit the idea for this story is interesting and there is a lot of other aspects that make this movie bearable, but there are many reasons why this movie is not a great film (I am not trying to accuse you of saying this film was great).

For my rebuttal to your (madklingon1) argument I would like to point out that you are speculating outside the underlying text of the screenplay and what we ACTUALLY know from the story presented to us in this movie. *Before you jump to conclusions let me say that ‘yes’ you are free to speculate whenever you please but I believe when watching a film there’s a proper time and place when you’re suppose to and aren’t. I will further explain this and when you’re done reading hopefully you’ll know what I mean.* The problem is that the more speculation that your explanations contains the less hard evidence you have (e.g. Your argument was that Carmen knows the nature of these guys. I ask you where in the film do you see Carmen interacting with these guys, virtually zero. Even Kit didn’t spend much time with them, they were always behind the scenes. In order for the plot to succeed they need to now every single detail to the key. I don’t think this was believable: Carmen/Kit knowing every single instinct these guys had with virtually no prior knowledge of their nature). Furthermore, my comments on the film were all observations that seemed unrealistic to me, I have only scrutinized that which has been presented to me. The bottom line is that this movie has many things that are not well explained leaving the audience pondering. When the director does this on purpose it is called suspense/mystery when it is done by accident it is a flaw. Notice that ALL scenes that we are debating have nothing to do with the overall mystery of the main story (i.e. Ford/Barnaby's secret plot) and that they’re all accidental flaws such as minor technicalities with events (i.e. "The fact that the police, in spite of having a air tight case against the Twit Twins..didn't think so do a test for GSR (Gun Shot Residue) on Theo's hands. It' pretty much SOP here, and I'm almoaat sure the same goes for London"). These things shouldn't leave the audience trying to fabricate explanations to defend the screenwriter for their bad scripts.
I.e. "Again, not so much. Remember a few things. First, Carmen is from the streets and had an abusive boyfriend..I've know more than one or two ladies like that who learned how to shoot. Also, remember some time had passed until the awards, and her and Kit had obviously put alot of thougt into it...so who's to say she wasn't getting some practise?" I am not saying this film needs to explain every single detail. But the reason that many scenes are bad is because they are unrealistic, in this case Carmen jumps roles from abused girl to double-0 agent without any prior explanation. What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't have to make up explanations for what seems to be blunder. If that were the case you can speculate many things: Carmen was a markswomen, the twins had mental retardation, Kit was a genius from MIT hence the plot... BUT a good movie doesn't leave unexplained key events like these on ACCIDENT. I can understand one bad scene but this film has many scenes that exhibit the same problem and frankly I believe this is a poorly made film because of this reason.

***I really wouldn't mind seeing more post of why people didn't like a certain scene. Whether it was be because they thought the scene was pretentious, unrealistic, sloppy, whatever. I think the post so far have been very insightful even if they had opposing views.

[–] sweetmama 17 years ago

I just finished watching the film and, for the most part, enjoyed it.
I wanted to ask about one of the comments further up:

"Theo didn't realize that Carmen slipped a gun into his pocket (must be as dumb as rocks), ..." EXACTLY!!! She knew that, and played to it."

I thought that Carmen kind of bumped into Theo and dropped the gun into his pocket at the same time as she ran passed him. Right after that he felt his pocket and pulled out the gun. Am I right?

something wicked this way comes . . . .

[–] snarf-punk 17 years ago

Agreed. The movie would have been perfect if they'd just stopped it after Barnaby reveals that he's screwed them over. Then it would have been a very clever black comedy. The final twist just turns it into a maudlin morality play, which undoes all the great work James D'arcy does as a viciously delicious anti-hero.

Ah well, I guess the writer liked Carman's character, despite the fact that no one else seems to!

[–] djsnafu23 15 years ago

Yes Snarf my man, and OP. It took away all the cynicism, this could be hte new The Player, or The Shape Of Things, and instead ended as a common, cliched hollywood thriller. Such a shame, huge potential up to there.

myspace.com/bankrupteuropeans

Coz lifes too short to listen to Madlib

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] TwoMushrooms 13 years ago

"For starters if someone does what Ford/Barnaby did that gives you the right to kill him?"

- Who said it was 'right' to kill him? Nobody said that. Kit and Carmen murdered him, plain and simple. Why is this even up for discussion?

"Also Carmen has to be an excellent shooter to be able to aim under pressure yet remain virtually evasive, again farfetched."

- She was shooting a man who was slowly walking away a short distance away from her. Anyone with some experience with a gun can pull that off.

"There is a lot of things that fell on luck for the scheme to occur as it did: the fact that Tom and Theo were video taping in the first place"

- Maybe you missed the whole scene where Kit thoroughly explains that he, Tom and Theo had a 'fake' shooting planned? They were going to shoot Ford with blanks and fake a murder to get publicity while videotaping the whole thing. So there was no luck that Tom and Theo were videotaping it: it was their plan.

"the fact that they had technical difficulties"

- This has absolutely no point whatsoever as the only thing that occured from this was that they were filming the floor instead of filming Ford getting 'shot'. Had the camera caught Ford getting shot there would be asbolutely no difference (infact, it was their plan to begin with).

"that nobody saw Carmen shoot"

- For just the same reasons nobody saw Kit shoot either; everyone was looking at Ford. Not to mention that Carmen had her gun concealed in a tissue.

"that they didn't hear the gun shots from her direction"

- As Carmen and Kit were standing next to eachother, and everyone saw Kit hold a gun, of course it seems that Kit was the shooter.

"that Theo and Tom didn't panic & ran after hearing the gunshots just like everyone else"

- WTF... seriously, again, this was clearly explained by Kit as a stunt they pulled off. For all that they knew, Tom and Theo believed it was their 'fake' shooting going according to plan: everyone panicking and they filming.

"that Theo didn't realize that Carmen slip a gun into his pocket"

- Carmen rushed through a lot of people to get to Ford, bumping into several of them. Just as several people rushed past Theo, so how do you know which one of the dozens of people running slipped the gun in there. Obviously he knows someone planted the gun there, and even if he suspects Carmen, he can not prove it.

"that they were so dumb that they are just going to let themselves be falsely prosecuted for a murder they didn't commit!"

- You know, when you are being accused of murder, you really can't 'let' the authority prosecute you. They do this without your consent, you know. Nobody 'lets' themselves get prosecuted. And as we are told, the trial against Tom and Theo was going on while the movie had premiere. For all that we know, Tom and Theo might be found not guilty. All that matters is that Kit and Carmen planted enough evidence for the attoruney to prosecute. The result is not shown.

"I can go on about 20 more things but I don't want to be redundant."

- In all honesty, you could have saved this one post and stopped yourself from looking like a moron.

"I want a frisbee made of Mexico."

The 'The 'Twist' not believable***SPOILE RS***

The 'The 'Twist' not believableSPOILE RS