why do people keep saying this? - Soldier's Girl (2003) Discussion

[–] shoeihell 18 years ago

What I've learned is that human sexual orientation and gender assignment are often two very different concepts. I know trans people who sometimes feel attracted to males and sometimes to females. Feeling 'trapped' in the wrong body is something other than sexual attraction-it goes to the very core of one's existence in this life. I think what you're referring to are the notion of gay drag queens being confused with the true trans person.

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[–] Latinfilms 18 years ago

Well, in the case of this movie, Barry fell in love with a boy who had not had gender assignment. Calpernia still had his pipi. Can we say that Barry fell in love with the illusion that Calpernia was a true girl. Barry even went down on Calpernia and sucked his pipi.

Latin Dude

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[–] moonbeambabe21 18 years ago

I have to disagree. Calpernia was not a boy. Though at the time she still had male genitalia, in her mind she is and was always a female. Gender Identity is more about your mental state then your physical. Barry fell in love with a woman, who just happened to still have a penis.

What I'm saying isnt making much sense LoL. I can't word my thoughts properly but I think you get what I'm trying to say.

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[–] shoeihell 18 years ago

I refuse to respond to anybody who calls it a "pipi"...;-)

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[–] TheCommenteer 17 years ago

someones never heard of hormones or biology.
nobody cares about "gender identity". ya know, i think im a giant carrot with an addiction to pine nuts...nope, still just an ordinary guy, damn, i guess mental state really doesnt mean *beep*

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[–] MelivaME 13 years ago

Wow- that is a really diminutive reading.
Hormones and biology do not fully predict a person's gender. To presume such is just ridiculous, and betrays that you know very little about the full gambit of people that exist in the world.
Also, comparing the movement between genders, which is a super fluid system, to a metamorphosis into a carrot is not just just demeaning, it is illogical.

'Cause we all end up in a tiny pine box, A mighty small drop in a mighty dark plot.

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[–] TheCommenteer 13 years ago

4 years later, really? sigh.

everyone with half a brain is aware of the simplified use of gender being applied in the sentence that was being critiqued, but of course some douchebag had to come along and point out the "actual" more complicated - though not as socially accepted - use of the word, which in no way negates the point of the original message. but if you want to use gender identity as an aspect of gender to make things slightly more complicated then fine, so be it, but semantics are not a basis of intelligence any more so than any other accumulated useless knowledge.

imo, despite it being almost half a decade later, gender should be a simple one dimensional criteria based on biology at birth. if you want to seperately include gender identity for some reason then do so, but your state of mind does not in any way affect the biological differences that will ALWAYS remain as permenant biomarkers of your gender.

relating this back to the movie: there is nothing wrong with expecting the biological aspect of your partner to align with the psychological.

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[–] MelivaME 13 years ago

Yes, *sigh*, really 4 years later. I don't see why there should be an expiration date on responses to problematic statements.

Clearly you have a very different definition of gender than a lot of people. Gender is a socially constructed, assigned, and negotiated thing (i.e. man and woman). Sex is a biological state (i.e. male and female). I apologize that you do not enjoy arguing semantics- although ignoring them is not a basis of intelligence either- but words are important. They are all we have to communicate with and it is important that people use them properly, or at least clearly.

In my opinion, I am glad that gender is not one dimensional and based on biological criteria. So there we go, agree to disagree.

'Cause we all end up in a tiny pine box, A mighty small drop in a mighty dark plot.

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[–] TheCommenteer 13 years ago

"I don't see why there should be an expiration date on responses to problematic statements."

i agree to an extent, when it comes to something like this, opinions and views change, as do socially accepted norms.

and youre right, i was getting gender and sex confused, assuming they were interchangable terms. my mistake. though i still think thats what the original poster did too, and thus the confusion. though what it comes down to is that while semantics are important, its unnecessary to simply pick up on one poorly used word when the actual meaning behind said word is obvious (in this case im referring to the commenter who i was originally responding to)

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[–] ciocio-2 10 years ago

Do you really think that "biology at birth" is always a simple, unambiguous, "one dimensional" matter? If it were, your ideas might have some degree more validity, but variations do indeed occur, including atypical chromosomal configurations, and babies born with "ambiguous genitalia." It is not necessarily clear what gender a baby is, or how that baby should be raised, if trying to hew to traditional, male/female norms. This can be apart from issues of gender dysphoria, confusion, or simply feeling absolutely, from the earliest ability to discern such, that one is in the incorrect body, re. sex. That's all not even to mention cases (pretty rare, thank goodness, I believe) of accidents during circumcision, leading boys to be re-fashioned into "girls" (as often happened to intersexed babies too, that being the easier direction to go, in terms of surgical construction; not sure if this is still accepted practice).

Anyway, the bottom line is that variations beyond straightforward M/F do occur, as you can read about here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguous_genitalia#Ambiguous_genitalia

Multiplex: 100+ shows a day, NONE worth watching. John Sayles' latest: NO distribution. SAD.

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[–] Frostrose 16 years ago

Maybe they should just accept the gender they were born. Or maybe you could just say Barry fell in love with a PERSON, regardless of... parts.

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[–] stephlem89 16 years ago

yeah, I don't quite understand it myself, because to me, a transgender person really isn't actually gay. With transgender, it is an actual physical condition where the brain developes as one sex and the body developes as another: the person is literally born into the wrong body. So, if you're looking at it from a mental point of view, they're perfectly straight. They just don't have the right body to go along with it haha.

In the same vein, I would think of someone who falls in love with a transgendered person as more or less straight also. I mean, if a man falls in love with a transgendered woman as was the case in the movie, they're falling in love with their feminine qualities, are they not? So.. yeah.. to me, it's straight with maybe a little bit of a twist since they happen to have male parts as well, but it's still falling in love with the person's female qualities.

Anywho, it really DOESN'T matter because the fact of the matter is that people whill fall in love with who they fall in love with. It doesn't matter the gender or anything else. And ALL love should be accepted and respected, because it's a beautiful thing.

self proclaimed
~Idina Menzel Finatic
~Grey's Anatomy McAddict
~Walsh-a-Holic

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[–] shortfatandallthat 14 years ago

I agree with FrostRose

You don't love a penis, or a vagina.

You love a person.

"We are actors. We are the opposite of people"

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[–] pdxgirl503 14 years ago

You're saying we should just accept the gender we were born into, even when that gender is incorrect? I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. We have a medical condition that is far more difficult to manage than most people would ever realize. If you were born with a cleft palette, would someone tell you to just 'accept it', and not seek medical attention to have it treated?

I really wanted to like this movie, but it just perpetuates the stereotypes of transpeople and does nothing for our cause.

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[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Jussie1014 14 years ago

Well, if some guy wanted to do this to me I'd kick his arse to the curb.

That's very pc of you.

How secure are you in your own sexuality?

And if you are such a big tough manly macho straight guy, what are you doing here?

"Genitalia is just God's way of accessorizing." Debbie Novotny, QAF

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[–] BugisStreetAnnie 14 years ago

I'm a male-to-female transsexual, bright light!

Learn to read.

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[–] virtualmetal 12 years ago

It shows Calpernia as an entertainer or showgirl which is what she was at the time. I don't really see how it should relate to anyone else.

As for the pre-op oral sex, I don't see the problem here either. If the film was about you then of course, you'd have an argument but the woman in this film was Calpernia and this was Ok for her as it is for many others.

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[–] BugisStreetAnnie 12 years ago

OhMyGosh!! I had totally forgotten I had posted this. I later went back and deleted it because at this point I have been living and WORKING (reiterate!) as a FEMALE (not a transsexual) for nearly 30 years. Actually longer than I've lived as a male, so I'm not so interested anymore.

However, as I remember, The Advocate magazine article said this rather cryptically, so I suspect not even Calpernia was entirely comfortable with the oral part of it. I don't really know.

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[–] virtualmetal 12 years ago

Wow. Sorry for digging it up but that's great to hear. =)

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[–] kmscb-1 18 years ago

I don't know if Barry Winchell was truly gay or not, but to me being gay means you like other members of your own sex. Period. If you fall in love with a transexual who is in the process of turning from a man to a woman -- and in fact Calpernia actually DID complete the transformation after Barry was murdered -- then you're still technically straight. After all, part of what a gay man likes about another man is that he has a penis. If he gets rid of that and becomes a woman, then for all intents and purposes what you really have is a heterosexual relationship, not a homosexual one. Therefore, to my mind, Barry Winchell was murdered not because he was gay but because he was PERCEIVED to be gay, which makes the Army's actions even more vile and insidious.

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[–] westpenn49 18 years ago

Absolutely, and the trials of Calpernia during the investigation and trial where she was basically coerced into putting gay spin on the relationship further muddied the waters. Teh writers got it pretty right, Barry was not, it seems from the story, into the Trannie scene he happened to fall in love, he wasn't looking for a man he fell in love with the right woman at the wrong time.

I was a little upset with the casting though, Lee was fabulous, but they let the beard show too much in the most tender scenes. When the makeup was right though, my god! Calpernia on the other hand isn't as striking but is more than Lee Pace will ever be, she is a woman with a hell of a story and heart.

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[–] shoeihell 18 years ago

"If he gets rid of that and becomes a woman, then for all intents and purposes what you really have is a heterosexual relationship, not a homosexual one. Therefore, to my mind, Barry Winchell was murdered not because he was gay but because he was PERCEIVED to be gay, which makes the Army's actions even more vile and insidious."

I've thought about this a great deal....if I fell in love with a trans who was in the process of getting the surgery (pre-op) and they eventually got the surgery (post-op), I think I would stay the course. As a gay male, I would DEFINITELY miss the penis, but unconditional love is just that-unconditional.

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[–] shayna1980 18 years ago

*sigh* Homosexuality and transsexuality are two different things. As stated before, homosexuality is an attraction to someone of the same gender. Transsexuality is caused by the disorder gender dysphoria: the disorder of having a brain of the opposite gender. Homosexuality is about sexual preference, transsexuality is about gender preference (for lack of a better term). I believe that a transsexual is a person who is TRANSforming from one gender into the other. Once the transformation is complete, they're not really transsexual anymore. Labels are just society's way of not getting beyond the surface image of something to look deeper to the issue. I had gender reassignment, and I really hate being called homosexual or transsexual. I am a woman (born anatomically male) who is married to a straight man. We were together before my surgery was complete and he was still straight then :) Besides, since society is ready to label us at birth as a 'male' if we have a penis, or as a 'female' if we have a vagina, I fail to see what the damned difference is when you're older. After all, I wouldn't have been labelled 'male' at birth if I'd been born without a 'pipi' (couldn't help myself), now would I? Oh and by the way, to the previous poster, please do not refer to Callie Addams as 'he'. . .it's extremely rude and disrespectful to a woman. It's not as if we don't already have enough problems that we have to deal with. No offense intended in this, of course; just thought I would let you know.

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[–] squeky_200416 18 years ago

Indeed Homosexuality and Transsexuality are two very different things but I must agree tht Barry was murdered for being perceived as a Homosexual. Also in the court transcripts it is proven that his roommate was off his hinges and may have possibly been jealous of Calpernia. There is no exact proof but I believe that is it possible that his roommate was homosexual and had deep feelings for Barry. But whatever the case he instigated the younger kid and caused him to murder Barry. I hope that they have both learned their lesson and an innocent life was taken for no reason other than they were drunk and stupid and did the unthinkable. This movie shattered the image of the military and caused many people to question the "Don't ask, Don't Tell" rule. I don't think that the rule actually works and I hope that this heart wrenching story will one day change the way the military operates and hopefully nothing this horrible will ever happen again.

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[–] shayna1980 18 years ago

Yes, I too agree that Barry was murdered because Fisher and Glover perceived him to be gay. People are so bloody stubborn when it comes to the whole issue of transsexuality anyway. They set their minds to something and that's it; there's no changing it. The whole 'Don't ask, don't tell' rule is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. I don't think we have a policy like that here in Canada, but I'm not 100% sure. The rule is totally pointless, because if a gay person was found out they would be discharged from the military anyway. In the movie, Barry was right when he said that he couldn't go to anyone about the constant harrassment, because if he did, he probably would have been investigated and then discharged. Clearly, he didn't want that to happen, as he seemed to be someone who loved his job, and truly wanted to serve his country.

What upsets me about this whole incident is that it has been taken and used as a 'gay' thing, rather then being used to shed light on what transsexuality truly is. I'm not saying that homosexuals don't need or deserve better treatment; they way they are discriminated against is horrendous. I'm just saying that if the topic of discussion was about transsexuality, then it should be used to help shed light on that subject. Ultimately, whether Barry was gay or not, only he knew. Callie had even asked him, as many women in her position do (myself included), if this straight boy who was interested in her was indeed gay? People need to understand that transsexual women go through enough suffering as it is; it would be heartbreaking to fall in love with someone only to find out later that they were actually gay, and now that you're physically a woman in every way, they don't want you anymore. I just think that a better job could have been done in handling this situation in regards to that issue.

All that said, this movie was absolutely heartbreaking. My husband and I watched it together, and it really hit home.

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[–] SheWillRememberYourHeart 18 years ago

No disrespect meant, but I think you sort of contradicted yourself there, when you both admitted that Barry was murdered for being preceived as gay, but then stated you thought this was this movie was hijacked to deal with gay issues.

I have to say a few things:
A. I agree with you that homosexuality and transsexuality are two different things.
B. I still find them to be interconnected in such a way that doesn't allow for them to be dealt with separately for a great deal of the time, because of what Judith Butler referred to as "fiction of heterosexual coherence": that if you were born a male this automatically means TWO things. One, that you're naturally supposed to behave as a man. And two, that you're naturally supposed to be attracted to women. (and the opposite is true for people who are born females) So for people raised to believe this (which is most of us, if not all), breaking one rule automatically breaks the other one as well, because according to this fiction, there are no exceptions to either rule.
C. And this is even more true on a political level. Homosexuals and Transsexuals are bound together by being outside the norm, no matter how much transsexuals do (or don't) conform once their transition is complete. And in this sense the word 'GAY' doesn't stand for homosexuals alone, it stands for all the people represented by the initials GLBT.
D. (and last thing) I don't know how the media dealt with this, but the movie deals with all sides of the matter, as I thought it should, with Calpernia's being a trans, with the men automatically attributing this to homosexuality and with Barry's own confusion on the subject matter (don't know how true this is, or how true his portrayal is regarding this complicated matter, but I liked that the character they built didn't live in some sort of denial, and therefore also some sort of rejection, where it was clear cut that he's completely and plainly straight, Cal is completely and plainly a woman, and her past as being born a male didn't exist. You know those types? I think Cal is indeed a woman, but not plainly so, and disregarding that is a form of not seeing who she is, what she's been through or the complexity that necessarily exists in this situation).

it would be heartbreaking to fall in love with someone only to find out later that they were actually gay, and now that you're physically a woman in every way, they don't want you anymore.
Ouch. I'm sorry to hear that this happens. But then again, I guess this is the unpleasant, yet impossible to avoid side effect of having a society in which people are allowed to explore boundaries and find who they are, meaning that I imagine a gay guy falling for someone like Calpernia is testing his own limits and would possibly not know himself how he'd react until after the operation. Life's a b!tch sometimes, ain't it so?

Sorry for the length. And I do hope nothing I said offended you, I just wanted to lay out the way that I saw the situation.

I used to have a , but damnit do I want a !

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[–] shayna1980 17 years ago

Firstly, I wasn't offended. However, I didn't contradict myself, and I didn't say that the movie was 'hijacked to deal with gay issues'. You are putting words in my mouth. Are you transsexual or gay? I am transsexual, and I do not consider the two to be interconnected in any way. For some, maybe, but not for all. I choose not to be interconnected with homosexuals, or even other transsexuals. My views and opinions on transsexuality are very different than you would find in the 'transsexual community'. I do not wish to be thought of as a transsexual; I wish to be thought of as a woman.

I'm not familiar with Judith Butler, but I am familiar with gender and gender roles. There is no such thing as automatically 'acting like a male' if you are born anatomically male. Stereotypical gender behaviour is a part of nurture, not nature. Yes, nature plays a part, a very big part, but it is not the ONLY part the shapes how a person acts in regards to being male or female. Haven't you ever noticed how some people are more masculine than others, or more feminine than others? Why do you suppose that is? If it was all about nature, wouldn't all men act the same, and all women act the same?

With all due respect, I am not represented by anyone, or by any group. I am me, a woman who happens to be trans, and I am happy with that. I have not had to 'fight' any politics to get where I am today. Call it luck, call it chance, call it karma, or whatever you want, but the fact is that there are many, MANY transsexuals who do not fit into the GLBT categories. Most people just don't know that we are here, because we do indeed conform very, very well.

In response to your part D, I think you've confirmed the point I was making. Most people (particularly men) automatically attribute being transsexual to homosexuality. That is what I was saying when I said that people are so stubborn about this. They have their mind set that transsexuals are gay, and it will not change. That is why I was upset about the movie not explaining well enough that homosexuality and transsexuality are two different things.

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[–] Xaria 17 years ago

most transpoeple are intent on being seen and treated as members of their aquired sex

the true christian speaks: jec lives- 'giancarlo is an enormous turd '

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[–] JussieC 18 years ago

Shayna, it seems to me that Barry was killed due to homosexual panic on the part of his attacker. And that this perception of him as gay, whether it was true or not, and his death, was the heart of the movie. I do not see this as a film about a trannie, or a transexual relationship. To me, this is a film about a man in the service who died as a result of gay-bashing.

Greetings, Sons of the Bird! The Bird is CRUEL!

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[–] shayna1980 17 years ago

I do believe that was what I said. He was killed because he was PERCEIVED to be gay. I don't believe he was gay, though, and if the mentality of people changed, then Barry may never have been killed. The movie did not speak at all about the fact that Callie was a woman, NOT a gay man dressed like woman. I am well-versed with this story, as I have been following it ever since Barry's murder. It is sad that Barry was murdered anyway, but since he was, his death could have been used to teach others that loving a transsexual woman (whether she's pre-op or not) doesn't mean that a man is gay.

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[–] Sabrina_M_Gray 18 years ago

Actually, after the trial was over and Fisher was sentenced, an Army shrink interviewed Fisher. And during the interview, the shrink concluded that Fisher did in fact have gender identity problems

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[–] shoeihell 17 years ago

"*sigh* Homosexuality and transsexuality are two different things. As stated before, homosexuality is an attraction to someone of the same gender. Transsexuality is caused by the disorder gender dysphoria: the disorder of having a brain of the opposite gender. Homosexuality is about sexual preference, transsexuality is about gender preference (for lack of a better term). I believe that a transsexual is a person who is TRANSforming from one gender into the other. Once the transformation is complete, they're not really transsexual anymore. Labels are just society's way of not getting beyond the surface image of something to look deeper to the issue. I had gender reassignment, and I really hate being called homosexual or transsexual. I am a woman (born anatomically male) who is married to a straight man. We were together before my surgery was complete and he was still straight then :) Besides, since society is ready to label us at birth as a 'male' if we have a penis, or as a 'female' if we have a vagina, I fail to see what the damned difference is when you're older. After all, I wouldn't have been labelled 'male' at birth if I'd been born without a 'pipi' (couldn't help myself), now would I?"

Yes, I know all this and didn't really need the lecture in the distinction between homosexuality and transsexuality. You claim later in the thread that you don't exactly 'fit in' the GBLT community and are personally ‘unique’. I can say the same thing as a homosexual until the advent of the film, "Brokeback Mountain" which showed all that there are more to homosexuals than "Will & Grace" stereotypes.

My point was that I am strongly attracted to the character in this movie. And if she succeeded in getting the sex change operation and I had loved her as a anatomical 'male', I would have continued to love her as a female-although with some regrets (sans penis). It's probably something I will never experience due to the limited choices I have living in a rural area, but it's not something I would ever rule out.

I wish to tread lightly upon my friends but love them deeply

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[–] shayna1980 17 years ago

Shoeihell, I don't think my response was to you, but rather to the original poster. I apologize if I was coming across as lecturing you.

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[–] shoeihell 17 years ago

"Shoeihell, I don't think my response was to you, but rather to the original poster. I apologize if I was coming across as lecturing you."

That's cool...the way IMDb stacked it and the fact that they sent me notification that someone had replied to my post made it confusing.

I wish to tread lightly upon my friends but love them deeply

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[–] monkeyman011 17 years ago

Yes, homosexuality and transsexuality are two different things. End of story.

However, I will point out that in my support work with other transsexuals, I have run into time and again people suffering from gender dysphoria who are confused that they aren't currently homosexual. That is to say, men who feel they are women, but are further confused by the fact that they don't find men attractive. Therefore how could they truely be women? It's a vicious mental cycle that is only broken by the acceptance that sexual orientation and gender are two seperate things.

Me. I'm a lesbian.

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[–] shayna1980 16 years ago

That's spot on. It does confuse some people, namely those who don't realize the two are not the same. I think the words 'sex' change, and 'sex change surgery' are part of that problem.

For me, I was confused because I thought when I was younger I must have been gay, because I was attracted to other boys. But being 'gay' just didn't quite answer all the questions I had. It was when I was older that I realized I was actually transsexual that it finally made sense.

I'm a heterosexual transsexual woman, married to a straight man.

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[–] Ethan62626 12 years ago

And some find whom they're attracted to changes over time, especially after they've started hormone therapy.

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[–] Lisa696708 13 years ago

I know! It seemed to me that he fell in love with someone who identified as female. He wasn't gay. he loved her because she was such a woman, graceful and kind, etc.

Michael Jordan plays ball. Charles Manson kills people. I talk.(Thank You for Smoking)

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[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]