The real Che Guevara


Can his reputation survive the publication of his own words?

In December 1953, he wrote to his aunt from San José, Costa Rica, “I have sworn before a picture of our old, much lamented comrade Stalin that I will not rest until I see these capitalist octopuses annihilated.” [1, p. 62]Another letter to the same aunt was signed with the words "Stalin II." [2, p. 167] More important was the fact that when Guevara visited the USSR in his capacity as one of the most important leaders of the victorious Cuban revolution in November of 1960, he insisted on depositing a floral tribute at Stalin's tomb[1, p. 181]. It is important to remember that this was more than four years after Khrushchev's revelations of Stalin's crimes.

This from Che Guevara's Guevara journal of his travels through Latin America: “I now feel my dilated nostrils, savoring the acrid odor of gunpowder and blood, of enemy death; I now tense my body, ready for the struggle, and I prepare my being as a sacred place so that in it resounds with new vibrations and new hopes the bestial howl of the triumphant proletariat.” The Motorcycle Diaries omitted this inconvenient portion of Che's diaries form the film.

A phrase in a letter to his wife on January 28, 1957, not long after disembarking in Cuba, which was published in her book Ernesto: A Memoir of Che Guevara in Sierra Maestra: “Here in the Cuban jungle, alive and bloodthirsty.” It is hardly a surprise that during the armed struggle against Batista, and then after the triumphant entry into Havana, Guevara murdered or oversaw the executions in summary trials of scores of people.

[1] Jorge Castañeda, Compañero: The Life and Death of Che Guevara (New York: Vintage, 1998).

[2] Jon Lee Anderson, Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life (New York: Grove Press, 1997.

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When a boy in Guevara’s forces stole some food, he ordered him shot. In January 1957, Guevara personally executed a peasant named Eutimio Guerra because he suspected him of passing on information and described the act in his diary:

“I ended the problem giving him a shot with a .32 pistol in the right side of the brain, with exit orifice in the right temporal. He gasped for a little while and was dead. Upon proceeding to remove his belongings I couldn’t get off the watch tied by a chain to his belt, and then he told me in a steady voice farther away than fear: “Yank it off, boy, what does it matter… I did so and his possessions were now mine.” [4, p. 176]

Later he shot Aristidio, a peasant who expressed the desire to leave whenever the rebels moved on. He ordered the death of Echevarría, a brother of one of his comrades, because of unspecified crimes: “He had to pay the price.” At other times he would simulate executions without carrying them out, as a method of psychological torture.

He wrote to a friend in December 1957, “Because of my ideological background, I belong to those who believe that the solution of the world’s problems lies behind the so-called iron curtain....” [3, p. 269]

“If in doubt, kill him” were Che's instructions. On the eve of victory, according to Costa, Che ordered the execution of a couple dozen people in Santa Clara, in central Cuba, where his column had gone as part of a final assault on the island. Some of them were shot in a hotel, as Marcelo Fernándes-Zayas, another former revolutionary who later became a journalist, has written--adding that among those executed, known as casquitos, were peasants who had joined the army simply to escape unemployment.

[3] Carlos Franqui, Diary of the Cuban Revolution (New York: Viking Press, 1980).

[4] Mona Charen, Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong in the Cold War and Still Blame America First (Washington, D.C.: Regnery Publishing, 2003).

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Guevara became “supreme prosecutor” at Havana’s La Cabaña fortress after Batista fled Cuba. Here he presided over hundreds of executions in proceedings that even a sympathetic biographer notes “were carried out without respect for due process.” [1, p. 143]

The "cold-blooded killing machine" did not show the full extent of his rigor until, immediately after the collapse of the Batista regime, Castro put him in charge of La Cabaña prison. Guevara presided during the first half of 1959 over one of the darkest periods of the revolution.

"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy of the paredon! (The Wall)"

The first three months of the Cuban Revolution saw 568 firing squad executions. Even the New York Times admits it. The preceding "trials" shocked and nauseated all who witnessed them. They were shameless farces, sickening charades.

Nazi Germany became the modern standard for political evil even before WWII. Yet in 1938, according to both William Shirer and John Toland, the Nazi regime held no more than 20 thousand political prisoners. Political executions up to the time might have reached a couple thousand, and most of these were of renegade Nazis themselves during the indiscriminate butchery known as the "Night Of The Long Knives." The famous night that horrified civilized opinion worldwide caused a grand total of 71 deaths. This in a nation of 70 million.

Cuba was a nation of 6.5 million in 1959. Within three months in power Castro and Che had shamed the Nazi prewar incarceration and murder rate. Cuban journalist Luis Ortega who knew Che as early as 1954 writes in his book "Yo Soy El Che!" that Guevara sent 1,897 men to the firing squad. In his book "Che Guevara: A Biography," Daniel James writes that Che himself admitted to ordering "several thousand" executions during the first few years of the Castro regime.

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In writing about Pedro Valdivia, the conquistador of Chile, Guevara reflected: “He belonged to that special class of men the species produces every so often, in whom a craving for limitless power is so extreme that any suffering to achieve it seems natural.” He might have been describing himself. At every stage of his adult life, his megalomania manifested itself in the predatory urge to take over other people's lives and property, and to abolish their free will.

He ordered his men to rob banks, a decision that he justified in a letter to Enrique Oltuski, a subordinate, in November of 1958: “The struggling masses agree to robbing banks because none of them has a penny in them.” This idea of revolution as a license to re-allocate property as he saw fit led the Marxist Puritan to take over the mansion of an emigrant after the triumph of the revolution. The urge to dispossess others of their property and to claim ownership of others' territory was central to Guevara's politics of raw power.

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“It was during the last days of December 1959, the sound of the iron door opening was heard as they threw another person into the already crowded cell. It was a boy some 12 to 14 years old at most who had just become our newest cellmate. And what did you do? I defended my father so they wouldn't kill him, I couldn't stop it. Soon Che's goons came back, and they yanked the valiant boy out of the cell.

He gave the order to bring the boy first and he ordered him to kneel in front of the wall. The boy disobeyed the order with a courage that words can't express and responded to this infamous character: “If you're going to kill me you're going to have to do it the way you kill a man, standing, not like a coward, kneeling.”

Walking behind the boy, the Che said “whereupon you are a brave lad.” He upholstered his pistol and shot him in the nape of the neck so that he almost decapitated him.” [5]

Here's a cold-blooded murderer who executed thousands without trial, who claimed that judicial evidence was an ”unnecessary bourgeois detail,” who stayed up till dawn for months at a time signing death warrants for innocent and honorable men, whose office in La Cabana had a window where he could watch the executions – and today his T-shirts adorn people who oppose capital punishment. By his own count, Che sent 2,500 men to "the wall."

[5] Pierre San Martin, El Nuevo Herald , Diciembre 28, 1997.

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[deleted]

The re-allocation and siezure of wealth from the rich, heh, I have no problem with those actions of his. I also wouldnt say that all these innocents were innocent, sure alot were but a lot of them were not. Just look at the propagandist lies that are spread in venezuela by the private press, such lies and monopoly on the press should not be tolerated. You have a problem with Che executing dissent after the revolution? why don't we look at the american revolution for instance or the oppression and war crimes committed by the grand United States military in Vietnam , the banana republics or the middle east.

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>why don't we look at the american revolution for instance or the oppression and war crimes committed by the grand United States military in Vietnam , the banana republics or the middle east.

Why don't we? Haven't we? It's no secret what crimes the founding fathers are guilty of, the Green Berets in Vietnam, the CIA in the Banana Republics, Corporate America in the mideast. What does this really have to do with Che Guevara? Are you saying that his atrocities are ok, because America is also guilty? Or even worse, that America's crimes cannot be excused, but Che's can?

I loved The Motorcycle Diaries and I think Che Guevara is an interesting historical figure, but he was also a murdering thug. To kill an unarmed man, woman, or child, in cold blood, he would have to be a monster and he did these very things.

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I doubt he killed unarmed women and children. Unarmed men yes, but only if they were a threat in his eyes.

Of course it is never OK to shoot somebody, but I think Che has a worse reputation than he had in real life.

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Well, he did kill unarmed children. It's documented fact.

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And what proof of this supposed "fact" is there? I would think you'd provide some evidence to back up such an unequivocal statement. I've heard this claim many times, and if just one person could prove it to be true, I would readily accept it.

"I guess I started smoking when I was about...four."

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This movie is disgusting.

It transforms a cold-blooded killer in a saint.

Disgusting.

And more disgusting than that is the masses of communists believing in what they see.


*beep* commies

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I think that the people that understand the history of "Che" and saw this movie should realize that it seemed that the perspective of the Boy to Man story was seen through his friend (Alberto Granado)eyes. The thing that makes this movie so much better is before the credits begin to roll, we are told that this boy Ernesto will turn out to be "Che". I believe the film maker is showing how the beginnings of such a monster was ordinary is shocking! And this just goes to show the way people choose to remember somebody.

With Love and Respect
~Kit~

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Yes but there are people who think him Godly when they don't know the facts about him. He wasn't great, and he wasn't someone people should look up to.

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Well, I have read of an annecdot of some prisones in La Cabania, where he had comanded during the time of one of the more brutal and frequent fireing squad (paredon) era.

I myself do not remember the witnessess exact word.I do not know whether this event has been verified and corraborated either. So I personally do not know if is true or not. Supposely some 12 year old boy angryly defended his father who was about to be shot in fireing squad. The event was discribed in a lot more details. Apparently, the kid was so furious toward El Che,that he himself was place infront of the fireing squad and shot too.There were suppose to have been several witnesses to this event.But I only read this witness annectdote and have not read anyone corraborated with him..... There were a lot of funky *beep* going on in La Cabania and during the beging of the early years of the revolucion. The events remind me of the French Revolucion which I learned about later. People were accuse without corraboration and much evidence. And like guilloting, guillotin there were the crys for Paredon Paredon and mob type justice and much vandetta.

The event about the 12 year old kid is the only one I know of right of the top of my head. Che has been know to contribute toward the death of quite a bit of human beings both in the Sierra Maestra mountains and after the trinph of the revolucion. Most of them has been collaborated by withnessess and his own writtings and the writting of others both foes and friends.

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When in DOUBT, double and triple check. I've seen El Che in person when I was about 11 or 12. I was left with not such good impression of him... Compair to el Comandante Camilo Cienfuegos. I would have followed Cienfuegos gladly. No so Che, both times I encounter being around him, he asked questions which most times seem to have alterial motives.. Not so Cienfuegos, who appear to truly wanted to know what I thought and felt. With Cienfuegos I felt invited, with Che I felt forced upon.

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So rich people can have their rights violated but other can't?

This is not about the US, it is about Ernesto "Che" Guevara.

"Those who can not attack the thought, instead attack the thinker"- Paul Valery

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Keep it coming...every ninny wearing a Che tee-shirt needs to read this.

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[deleted]

you like writing to yourself alright.

"I'm givin you pearls here"

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When the Rumanian writer Stefan Baciu visited Havana, Che Guevara
invited him to be present at an execution. Baciu has made reference a few times
to this macabre invitation, the last time in his poem:

"I DO NOT SING TO CHE"

I do not sing to Che,
neither I have sung to Stalin
with Che I spoke enough in Mexico,
and in Havana he invited me,
biting the pure between the lips,
like inviting somebody to a drink in the bar,
to accompany him to see how people are shot at the wall in la Cabaña.

I do not sing to Che,
neither I have sung to Stalin;
let Neruda, Guillen and Cortazar sing to him;
they sing to Che (the singers of Stalin),
I sing to the youth of Czechoslovakia.

The difference between ‘Che’ Guevara and Pol Pot was that Guevara never studied in Paris.

But the mass-executioner gets a standing ovation by the same people in the U.S who opposes capital punishment! Is there a psychiatrist in the house?!

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Che played a principal role in setting up Cuba's first labor camp in the Guanahacabibes region in western Cuba in 1960-1961, to confine people who had committed no crime punishable by law, revolutionary or otherwise. This "crimes" involved drinking, vagrancy, disrespect for authorities, laziness and playing loud music. Che defended that initiative in his own words: “We only send to Guanahacabibes those doubtful cases where we are not sure people should go to jail. I believe that people who should go to jail should go to jail anyway.”

This camp was the precursor to the eventual systematic confinement, starting in 1965 in the province of Camagüey, of dissidents, homosexuals, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Afro-Cuban priests, and other such scum, under the banner of UMAP, Unidades Militares de Ayuda a la Producción, or Military Units to Help Production. Herded into buses and trucks, the “unfit” would be transported at gunpoint into concentration camps organized on the Guanahacabibes mold. Some would never return; others would be raped, beaten, or mutilated; and most would be traumatized for life, as Néstor Almendros's wrenching documentary Improper Conduct showed the world a couple of decades ago. In the 80s and 90s this non-judicial, forced confinement was also applied to AIDS victims [6].

[6] Samuel Farber, "The Resurrection of Che Guevara," New Politics, Summer 1998.

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im from czechoslovakia. therfore i say he knew nothing of what he was singing about. czechs are dumb like nobody :D *beep* our """VELVET REVOLUTION""" of 89' man, *beep* it. we never had a backbone in the history. Hasta la victoria. See what happens im Mexico now!!! 200 people dead and the revolution carrying on. I would shoot the american sponsored pigs!

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[deleted]

So have you ever read books by people who were incamped at the UMAP. Or maybe even you can cast the movie "Conducta Impropia". I would think the Nazi's were a lot more brutal and did a lot more people, just by the number of the populations in Europe.

What you call the truth sound like a lot of religious fervor, from reading favorable books about El Che. Like someone would read the bible. You were not ever witness to the truth!!

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And uhm... what do you want us to do with this information?

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maybe he wants us to think about it...
Maybe we should.

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sehnsuchtsoul, exactly, that is the main idea of this post. Hope this will help you and others to understand "The real Che Guevara", the atrocities committed by this mass murderer against the Cuban people.

Regards, victorin1.

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During the Cuban missile crisis on October 1962, Che demanded that nuclear war be unleashed on the United States. He told British reporter Sam Russell that “if the nuclear missiles had been under Cuban control (during the Cuban missile crisis), they would have fired them off.” Reportedly, he was disappointed when Khrushchev decided to draw back his weapons in the missile crisis. "If the rockets had remained, we would have used them all and directed them against the very heart of the United States, including New York, in our defense against aggression." And a couple of years later, at the United Nations, he was true to form: “As Marxists we have maintained that peaceful coexistence among nations does not include coexistence between exploiters and the exploited.”

On December 11, 1964, during a debate in the United Nations General Assembly where Guevara represented de Cuban government, this was severely attacked because of the firing squad executions without any judicial process and evidence as required by the rule of law. Guevara, on his own voiced, responded:

“Shooting people yes, we have shoot people and will continuo to do so until it will be required.” This show that he was a person convinced of what he was doing, and could care less and has not any prejudice to send to the firing squad a lot of people, on condition that his points of view will prevail.

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In April 1967, speaking from experience, he summed up his homicidal idea of justice in his “Message to the Tricontinental”: “hatred is an element of struggle; relentless hatred of the enemy that impels us over and beyond the natural limitations of man and transforms us into effective, violent, selective, and cold killing machines. Our soldiers must be thus; a people without hatred cannot vanquish a brutal enemy.” This use of hatred to encourage the dehumanization of ones enemy is but another manifestation of the doctrine found throughout the centuries to justify mass murder and torture.

Che shout to his captors in Bolivia, “Don't shoot – I'm Che! I'm worth more to you alive than dead!”. Then why didn't he save his last bullet for himself? He could only beg for his life. The murderous, cowardly and epically stupid little weasel named Che Guevara in Bolivia, got a major dose of his own medicine. Justice has never been better served.

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Hmm, i think i should go copy and paste an excerpt from a Che biography....

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yes but alot of people like che im not saying im one of them im not saying im not one of them. but you could interpret some of those things. communism in my eyes would be a great thing if it could work prperly but i sadly probably won't. there will probably allways be very poor and very rich.

BEST GENRE
1st GANGSTER
2nd MARTIAL ARTS
3rd COMEDY

Its my Sig Gangsters can be a Genre

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Che Guevara, who did so much to destroy capitalism, is now a quintessential capitalist brand. His likeness adorns mugs, lighters, key chains, wallets, baseball caps, toques, bandannas, tank tops, club shirts, couture bags, denim jeans, herbal tea, and of course those omnipresent T-shirts with the photograph, taken by Alberto Korda. His contemporary followers delude themselves by clinging to a myth, except the young Argentines who have come up with an expression: “I have a Che T-shirt and I don't know why.”

Thanks to Che's own testimonials, his thoughts and his deeds, we now know exactly how deluded so many of our contemporaries are about him.

Those who worship Che aren’t rebels or peace activists. They are dupes furthering the destructive legacy of collectivism and the mayhem it has wrought the world over.

Che's legacy in Cuba is one neighbor spying on another, high suicide rates, and a generation of young Cubans risking their lives on rafts in the Florida Straits rather than continue to live under a despotic government. Che's true legacy is simply one of terror and murder.

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But was Che any different to the right-wing paramilitaries funded by the US/UK in other parts of South America? I agree that there is too much romanticism about Che, but there is no mention of the atrocities commited in Chile, Argentina, Brazil and Columbia that people fail to mention when offering a critique of Che and Castro

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Che's life measured against the myth is no different from most legendary heroes.

General Custer- ethnic cleanser, George Washington- greedy slave owner, Columbus- genocidal maniac, Nelson Mandela-terrorist bomber.

History is written by the victors and unpalatable methods are often used to achieve victory.

Che's main problem was that he was an awful politician and not a very succesful guerilla leader either.

Right or wrong his main characteristic is that he inspired people and had passion to convey to people that fighting for a better world was possible.

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Well I suppose Guevara just did what he thought he needed to do and if you subscribe to the communist ideal then his actions were largely justified.

It's a shame they never achived world revolution, then the commies could have just lumped all dissenters onto one island, or maybe continent! Silly idea!

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You are so wrong in your assessment that Guevara's main impetus was to instill a "passion... for a better world". Your sophomoric comparison to Custer, Washington, Columbus and Mandela is all wrong. Custer...should never have been allowed to lead a boy scout troop. Washington was a true leader and patriot. Columbus was an explorer and Mandela is a living legend who indeed HAS the passion to "convey to people that fighting for a better world" IS possible and has seen that hope come to fruition. Guevara was a psychopath, who thrived on the taste of blood-letting, nothing more. Read his diaries.

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Mandela actually liked Che! Did you know that. Also Che said that a revolution is lead by love. For the people that is. and of course hate for the enemy, what did you expect?!

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I agree. I know it's not a nice thing to say, but I really do hate my enemies and I'm sure they hate me. Why is it so wrong to turn your soldiers into killing machines driven by hatred against a common enemy? They are soldiers, after all, killing the enemy to defend a cause is their job, anyway.

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Rose1948, you are both right and both wrong. Guevara was a murderous punk who died begging for his life like a coward but the other poster has some factual arguments about Columbus and Custer. Washington was a alave owner, he owned almost 200 at one time but he inherited most of them from his wife Martha's first husband. Washington lived in a time when owning slaves was very common, this is no excuse but it must be taken into account. Washington disliked slavery but did not go out of his way to stop it either:

After the war, Washington often privately expressed a dislike of the institution of slavery. In 1786, he wrote to a friend that "I never mean ... to possess another slave by purchase; it being among my first wishes to see some plan adopted, by which slavery in this Country may be abolished by slow, sure and imperceptible degrees." To another friend he wrote that "there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see some plan adopted for the abolition" of slavery. He expressed moral support for plans by his friend the Marquis de Lafayette to emancipate slaves and resettle them elsewhere, but he did not assist him in the effort.[3]

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He moved his slaves between states so he wouldn't have to free them under law.

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Apparantely anyone here who agrees with Che's i deas must be a communist , most of you just think he's a great leader and Revoultionary because he's being marketed that way but pick up a history book and see who he really was. He was communist bastard who killed people for no reason and was Castro's right hand man in the Cuban Revolution, thats why the Bolivian President didn't want him alive at all so He ordered a firing squad on him to kill him. So for those of you who agree with him pick up a book and read who he really was, A blood thirsty communist

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[deleted]

That's because we are talking about El Che. We are not talking about the atrocities of Chile, Argentian, Brazil and Columbia. ONe of the tactics of tring not to hear what one has to say, is to change the subject to something that is almost relevant, but it is not the issue of which we are talking about.

You want to talk about those issues, send us to other threats that are talking about those issues and those issues alone, and we must likely agree with you and the way atrocities appear worldwide. But those atrocities do not justify the atrocity that El Che was and contnue to be, my friend. Each issues must be taken singularly to its completion. And then we will speak about other wrong.

You are like saying is okay to be wrong, just because wrong is being done anyway.

Damn, for that matter, maybe I shoudl be wrong with you and try to make you totally wrong about what you are saying. That would be just as wrong doing.

You seem to say is okay for El Che to be a murderer because there is other murderres around. Why should be critized El Che, after all he most be like God or the Pope where he did no wrong. AS the end justify the means and the means is to ......................... who know what, because we loose the sence of the ends and our goals. We get taken by the means.

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"Che's legacy in Cuba is one neighbor spying on another, high suicide rates, and a generation of young Cubans risking their lives on rafts in the Florida Straits rather than continue to live under a despotic government."

you could also argue that it is a legacy of a country with a 100% literacy rate, where the life expectancy is the same as in the us, where almost 25% of the budget is allocated to healthcare and 10% to education, and where nearly 100% of children enrol in primary school

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The racism of Che Guevara

Che didn't think much of Mexicans. In 1956 while residing in Mexico, Che refer to the Mexican as: "a band of illiterate Indians."

Che also delighted in belittling blacks. "The black is indolent and a dreamer; spending his meager wage on frivolity or drink; the European has a tradition of work and saving," that's Che himself in his celebrated Motorcycle Diaries. Can't imagine how Robert Redford left that out of his charming movie.

In his diaries Che also referred to Bolivian villagers as "animalitos" (little animals.) Wonder if Evo Morales has read them? He's too busy ribbon-cutting Che monuments in Bolivian villages.


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Che was against all forms of racism, the vast majority of commies were/are. If you actually read any reputable source on Che, you might have known this.

Actually, I recognize one of those quoets, the one about the "band of illiterate Indians." You took the quote out of context. He was referring to how Mexico was a byproduct of the oppressor to the north. Because the country had been exploited by many years by the rich inside and out of the country, that many mexicans resembled to the average capitalist little more than "a band of illiterate indians." He wasn't being racist.

Che is far from a saint, but he's not the monster you're making him out to be. As for his Bolivian remark, why would he die fighting for the bolivians if he was racist against them. You make no sense at all.

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I agree with you. Obviously Che was a flawed person, like everyone else, but victorin1 has been cutting and pasting random Che quotes without giving us any sort of context. It's easy to misinterpret other people's words that way =/ The Red Scare ended a long time ago, guys.. He's been dead for a long time now and what people think about him is not gonna change. After you die, what people think of you and and your actions are more important than what you actually did in life, and if young people feel inspired by his struggle for justice (I mean, the man gave up a life of power in Cuba to fight other people's revolutions) but ignore his many flaws, then they should be encouraged to do so. I don't think anyone will ever read this so w/e...

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Thank you, Victorin1. Finally someone is speaking rationally and has not been taken in by the moronic Western romanticization of Che Guevara.

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Well che's bodyguard and good friend was black. if he was raisist how would he ever allow that?!

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[deleted]


Last I checked he never made lampshades from the skin of his enemies.

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he said that thing about black people before he became a Communist.

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Well, and what was the cuban people before 54? Only a bunch of slaves, analphabetic, dying of starvation or venereal diseases... I think that the revolution worked well in cuba. It happened when it should happen.
The only problem is that the resulted system is taking too long to change.

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Che certainly had more courage than those from Batista’s corrupt and sadistic regime; which after killing 20,000 Cubans left after sacking its national bank and casinos.

Batista left Cuba January 1, 1959 with $300 million dollars to avoid justice for crimes against humanity and to live a life of splendor in Spain, while Che left Cuba a few years later with his dignity and courage to live a life of sacrifice upon sacrifice, for the sake of the unjustly plundered and disenfranchised in Latin America, by those filled with selfish and insatiable greed.

Che’s passion for mankind was churned by his compassion for the horrific state of millions of poor people throughout that continent which have not been afforded the respect and dignity that all God’s creatures deserve.

Some (like Victorin) hate him simply because they just want Cuba back as their personal plantation; to rule and do as they once did without regard for the poor, the nation’s sovereignty, cultural idiosyncrasies, its legacy for future generations, and other legitimate national interests.

Cuba will live on, as will Che !

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Why don't you do that. You can you know. You do not live under a fascist dictator like Che. You can think what you want, criticize the a President, the government anything you desire. You can own a weapon if you so choose, You can call me names. It makes no difference, we live in a democracy. Try that under the boot of fascism which was Che and see what it gets you - a bullit in the brain.

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I keep reading your comments and others as well and with some i laugh and with others i just think how nice your life must be. Because if you see and live in a poor country exploited by the US, usually, then i'll see if you are not looking for a way out of it. Yes he told his PEASENT army to rob banks. Why? You need money for war and what better way than to take it from your enemies. Can you tell me with how many millions Batista left Cuba?! As for hate, well it is a feeling the oppresed have against their opressors. you don't wish to kill someone you don't hate! It gave the edge in the Cuban Revolution since the very few survivors of Granma gained popular support.Why do you think most people in the WORLD wish something bad to happen to the US? it's due to a thing called imperialism, i could even say fascism in some cases.
Last words don't kill me? last words I have failed? How could a man who was ready to die those many years back in Cuba even think of saying such a thing. He was ready to die from when he joined castro in Mexico! He knew the Bolivian revolution was not ripe but he still went! He was killed be an army trained and funded by the US with CIA information. His final blow was a deserter going straight to the army and betraying the group. The small goroup got surrounded. They had a very sick doctor but Che didnt leave him behind even when it meant less movement. THey fought and che was injured. HIS GUN WAS DESTROYED BY A BULLET AND HIS REVOLVER HAD NO AMMUNITION.
as for calling this man stupid? honestly show some respect. University graduate who as a youth spent countless hours reading. How can he be stupid. Why does he scare you so much you feel the need to put him down?

The only thing i find wrong with Che is the executions AFTER victory. Before, during the revolution i would do it myself. Most regular armies do so as well. he should have had a trial and THEN execute all the traitors and unbelievers. one bad apple is enough to destroy the whole basket. Espessially if this is something that relies on human intelect like sociallism or communism.

You are intitled to your oppinion but try to look at it from other's ppl point of view. people who dont have the lucturies you do. not even a pc or internet. maybe not even heating. and now think that this people know that their state is due to imerialism...

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Tell me, did Che kick dogs, too?

Of course, it's the invariable character assassination. The average person is dumb enough to fall for it, though. The guy was ruthless; true. Who wasn't in their cause? Did Roosevelt hesitate in using atomic bombs on Japan? Did he hesitate in carpet bombing Dresden? He knew full well thousands and thousands of innocents would be killed. That's okay though because the cause was just, right?

Character assassination and ad hominem attacks are superfluous, immature, and only damages the credibility of the one engaging in it. Either one thinks the cause is just or you don't. There's a lot of dirt to be dug up on everyone's "heroes" on the right and the left.

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lol he did actually kill a dog by mistake its in the book of motorcylcle diaries lol. i he though it was a big cat (cant remember which one) it cracked me up becasue he thought it was the loose big cat and it turned out to be the dog. lol anyways

BEST GENRE
1st GANGSTER
2nd MARTIAL ARTS
3rd COMEDY

Its my Sig Gangsters can be a Genre

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Truman, actually, not Roosevelt.

Carry on.

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well, Truman anyway.

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mscheltgen - no character assassination here - just telling the truth - i think the point of the original poster was simply to show what che was really like - that he was not some hero of the people who only did good deeds. he committed crimes and other atrocities like everybody else. in other words, he's no better than the evil capitalists he fought so hard against. i often liken che to the american western outlaw jesse james. james was considered a man of the ppl but in reality he was nothing but a cold hearted killer.

also one note, just to correct your post, it wasn't FDR who decided to drop bombs on japan. FDR was already dead by that point. it was harry truman who actually made the final decision to drop Fat Man & Little Boy

z



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You know there's a conspiracy theory that all these facts were released by the CIA and the US government in order to justify their execution of him and to justify the fight against communism.

So...could that be true? All the facts come from published books, the internet, libraries all pumped out by capitalism. Hmmm...

I'm not syain I believe the consipracy but it is (wildly) plausible!.

Mark.
What is the point in living, if you can't feel alive?

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Seems victorin has a bee in his bonnet about Che.

Revolutions are bloody, and I'm sure some of the claims are tainted with propaganda, however maybe Che wouldn't have been prone to use so much force in Cuba, if the CIA hadn't organised a Military coup to overthrow the peaceful democratic social revolution Che was part if in Guatemala? The CIA orhcestrated a democratically elected government to be overthrown. That is illegal, but who can stop the planet's top bully?

So you can blame the meddling USA and it's self protectionist capitalist oriented black bag brigade, the CIA, for radicalising Che, and causing so much death.

Seems the USA has learned nothing from this experience and still likes meddling illegally in foreign countries, killing people, and radicalising people against them.

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There has been mention of Roosevelt and others on here, but surely the point of this thread is to say that none of those are treated as cult figures and have their ugly mugs splashed across t-shirts everywhere you look, unlike good old Che.

"We're making a film here, not a movie."

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quote neil mc "There has been mention of Roosevelt and others on here, but surely the point of this thread is to say that none of those are treated as cult figures and have their ugly mugs splashed across t-shirts everywhere you look, unlike good old Che."

No, some presidents just have their faces on Mt Rushmore instead, or get one of these;

http://www.collectorsgalleryonline.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=CG&Category_Code=TALKPRES

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LOL, but the difference is nobody actually buys them, or if they do they don't take it public!

"We're making a film here, not a movie."

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Perfect post victorin1, just perfect.

Here in Brazil, where i live, Che is considered to be a semi-god. This drives me mad, the man was a freaking murderer, and his main legacy is the actual Cuba, where anyone who opposes Fidel CAstro's directions is shot.

Still, our stupid people here in Brazil admire a lot Che and Castro, and our president, Lula, is a "mini-dictator", or even better, a "wannabe-dictator", inspired by the works of Castro and Chavez. It's pathetic. South America is pathetic. honestly, avoid coming down here.

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Whether for or against Che Guevara, the facts do not matter. What matters is portraying the man in a way which self-servingly supports ones own political prejudices about the world - 99% of everything written about Guevara is going to be a hagiography or a smear piece. Everyone's got some kind of ideological vendetta.

I think it's a bad idea, in any case, to wrap up any group of peoples' dreams or expectations in the deification of a single individual.

I don't put anyone's face on my shirt.

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Oh, I also wanted to say, whether you admire or loathe Che Guevara, this is still a fantastic film. I loved it. Che's legacy is almost irrelevant to the story. This could be a work of fiction and I still would have enjoyed it.

The reality of Che Guevara and his place in history will continue to be debated. Frankly of all of the people who lived throughout history and with everything that has happened and is happening now, whether or not Che Guevara was a hero of the people or some kind of fraud just isn't very interesting to me.

A lot of poor people in the world, a few rich people, and a lot of nasty folks on both sides. In a way, it's too bad ideology and flag waving has gotten in the way of helping out those who really need it, and educating the world about the shameful conditions so many people live in today.

Che fans will probably see this film, but it would be a shame if critics of Guevara avoided it, or refused to see the beauty in it because one of the characters is an ideological heat sink.

Everyone should travel more and get a more up-close look at things they tend to go into soliloquys and self-righteous rants about.

The more I see of the world through travel, the less politically committed I become. Not only does it seem that few political ideas or solutions can solve problems, but politics even tends to limit the way problems are defined. You should, for example, be able to say, "People are unjustly poor and suffering through no fault of their own" without people assuming you have a communist agenda...And likewise you should be able to say that "People are often irresponsible and are often completely culpbable for their own lot in life" without being branded as some kind of country club Republican.

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Keep in mind that the Latin America of Guevara's youth was essentially a series of medieval fiefdoms, in which in each country a few dozen families shamelessly exploited the rest of the inhabitants, using periodic massacres, summary executions, and permanent near-starvation conditions to maintain themselves in power.

Look at any statistic you want from the period -- literacy, infant mortality, life expectancy -- and you'll see that aside from a few thousand members of the elite, and a small middle class needed to run the government beauracracy, Latin Americans lived in a continuation of Europe's medieval period in every meaningful sense.

Just to give you an idea, from a period a bit before Che's long voyage, the average life expectancy in Chile --a country always considered to be at the forefront of development in Latin America-- was 27 years in 1900!

And the elites who perpetuated these regimes were very well armed, often by a certain foreign government.

This is to give a certain context to some of the comments posted here.

In light of the abismal, sub-human reality imposed on 99% of Latin Americans, is it any wonder that Guevara believed that violence was the only way to produce changes? Especially considering that violence had been used by these countries' rulers for 400+ years to stay in power?

Of course, Che was killed for his efforts, but to this day he has had a lasting effect on Latin America, probably more far reaching than he could ever have imagined.

In the 60, the US GOVERNMENT pushed land reform on most Latin American countries as a direct response to not-unfounded fears that the utterly exploitative, inequitable and inhuman division of property (1% of the population owning 90%+ of any given country's land) would lead to mass uprisings and spontaneous revolution. And Guevara's limited success in the continent was the number one US justification of this fear.

So here we have Che leading the US government to force the Latin American elites to violate the sacrosanct principle of private property on a mass scale!

And to this day, any moderately organized group of non-pacifist protestors in Latin America can send shivers down governments' spines thanks to the memory of Che. We saw that in Chiapas, where the indigenous population was treated worse than domestic pets, and we can see that today in Chile where some Mapuche indians in the south are fighting to reclaim lands stolen from them, in some cases resorting to guerrilla-like actions such as burning down the equipment and property of the huge transnational companies that have taken these lands and are now clearcutting them, mainly to export wood chips to Japan.

These groups, and others like them, are essentially powerless in the face of the military and police apparatus of modern Latin American governments. But thanks in part to the influence of Guevara, they have far more power than they otherwise would have. Still not much at all, but sometimes enough to actually get governments to sit down at the bargaining table and make a few concessions here and there.

And though we may like to think of current Latin American governments as modern entities that are simply plagued by a lack of money or other resources, or a bit of corruption here and there, the reality is often far closer to what it was 50 or more years ago. You'll be hard pressed to find more revolting rich-poor gaps than those in Latin America, with Brazil and Chile leading the way.

Yes, Chile, that supposed economic miracle where the cost of living is comparable to that of a small US city, yet the minimum wage is about US$ 1.20 an hour, where a 19% value-added tax is slapped on everything (this is what is know as a regressive tax -- it hits the poor violently and is irrelevant to the rich, who can reclaim it through their companies, often fraudulently), where employers routinely don't make the equivalent of social security and medicare payments thereby depriving their workers of much of their pensions (which are INDIVIDUAL, unlike US Social Security) and any real healthcare (and any worker who doesn't like it can hire their own lawyer and sue, but since class-action suits don't exist in Chile 1000 workers would have to hire 1000 lawyers, something that is for all intents and purposes utterly impossible)...

I could go on and on and on. And Chile is a hell of a lot better off than most of its neighbors!

In short, rather than condemning Che for committing a miniscule number of atrocities under regimes that have massacred thousands upon thousands at a time, we should be looking for some sort of solution for the current conditions in Latin America, hopefully a peaceful one.

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Bravo! Very well said.

Not very surprising that the OP hasn't responded to your reply.

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not that this topic isn't interesting, I'm leanring a lot from both supporters and non-supporters, but tell,me Victorin: why in the world do you need to come to the INTERNET MOVIE DATABASE and stuff pretty much every forum of movies involving Che or Fidel with your "knowledge"? meaning, don't politically active forums exist where you can indoctrinate people? And besides, the movie's about young Che's travels: would be like watching, i don't know "Young queen victoria" and go around blaming that she was a colonialist...much later.
Personally i don't think that these issues belong here, but this is my own personal opinion.

And, last but not least, not always two kinds of people exist: between stupid-who-wear-che's-tshirt-and-don't-know-why and people-who-had-the-epiphany-and-know-the-"real truth", there are people who can appreciate the good and blame the bad...and have you ever known a politically involved person who was a saint? Come on....

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Your right. All of those things are terrible, however it is important to remember that there are aurguments both ways. Also, the whole point of this movie is to show how Che became the way he was, and the motivation for his actions. He basically devoted his life to joining every nationalistic and anti-colonial power/power puppet revolution he could, which eventually cost him his life. I don't think that there is anything wrong with how this movie portrays him though, especially because you can clearly see his shift throughout the film. I especially love that scene in Peru, where after talking to the migrant workers, he looks up and you can just see the change and intensity in his eyes.

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Guevara’s elevation as symbol of goodness, due to the self-indulgence and frivolity of pampered Western pseudo revolutionaries, speaks clearly of their lack of critical objective analysis, forgetting that, as Anthony Daniels states, "The difference between ‘Che’ Guevara and Pol Pot was that Guevara never studied in Paris."

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YOU PEOPLE ARE INSANE!!!!!

your saying you disaprove of the killings he ordered, but loved his passion to get things his way (insert: flowers and puppies and nice things)! if i said i didnt like osama bin ladens flying planes into american landmarks and killing thousands, but loved his conviction for the holy war to be won would you turn a blind eye to it? if i wore a shirt emblazened with a hip "pic" of osama on it would i not offend people simply by telling them why i feel it necessary to comemerate him in such a manner? you yuppies need to open your ears, hear the truth, and stop idolizing terrorists! you havnt had a hard day in your life, and if you had, its no comparison to what the they had to and are going through! you need to grow up. its not cool, and it makes u look ignorant regardless if you know anything about che's life. just because you read a biography, or flip through a magazine, or see a movie, or find it on wikipedia dosnt make you the supreme holder of knoledge. nor does it put you in the shoes of the people there that had to experienced it first hand! you will never know, and i hope you never find out. thanks victorin1 for starting this, to bad nobody cares about fact though.


-love,
eal

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Im sorry but if you compare Che Guevara to Osama Bin Laden, your the one whose INSANE!!! We all know (well maybe thats a stretch) that Che is not some great flawless revolutionary, as some people believe. But to compare him to Osama Bin Laden?? Come on now dude. Thats just crazy. If you dont like him thats understandable, but you cant compare him w/ an Islamic fundamentalist!! Your saying people look ignorant because they have read up Che's biographies... well... Where exactly do you get your information on Che Guevara or Osama Bin Laden for that matter?? How are you sooo sure your sources of information are so accurate, and unbiased? Are you in the CIA? I doubt it. You dont know everything. Truth is, its a matter of PERSPECTIVE. You should know that our interpretation of history is based on someone's bias. All of our idea's of what is right and wrong are based on perspective. Theres a show on HBO right now called "Assume the Position" w/ Robert Wuhl, where the tagline goes something like, "the stories that made up America, and the stories that America made up". I think you'll understand what I mean if you watch this show. But back to Che Guevara. I dont think people admire him so much as a person (which Im sure may change because of this movie), but its more the admiring of his more famous IDEAS. Sure most people are ignorant to his atrocities, but again, Che is a symbol to these people. Not a person. Whether you like it or not, Che represents justice, freedom, and the ability to stand up against governmental oppression. That is what inspire people about Che. When people where t-shirts with the famous Che picture, I seriously doubt they are wearing it because they support every single belief Che had. There are no 2 people in the WORLD that agree on every single issue! Just because I like Kinky Freidman and wear his shirt doesnt mean I agree with everything he's done or believes in. Come on. Therefore people should stop hating on others who admire "Che" by calling them ignorant. For the most part, they just have a different perspective.

By the way, I do agree though that Che and every political figure should be judged based on all their actions, and that people should be aware of them. Peace

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"Whether you like it or not, Che represents justice, freedom, and the ability to stand up against governmental oppression."

You are a f-cking idiot. Guevara helped establish one of the most repressive regimes in the world today and had nothing but contempt for freedom.

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[deleted]

"You are a f-cking idiot. Guevara helped establish one of the most repressive regimes in the world today and had nothing but contempt for freedom."

That is absurd! Che had nothing to do with the founding of the USA!

Regards,
The Count

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"

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"Im sorry but if you compare Che Guevara to Osama Bin Laden, your the one whose INSANE!!!"

Wrong again, sh-thead. In 1962 your man Guevara told the London Daily Worker "if the nuclear missiles had remained we would have used them against the very heart of America, including New York City." He also said " "we will march the path of victory even if it costs millions of atomic victims...We must keep our hatred alive and fan it to paroxysm." Guevara and Bin Laden might have had different goals, but their methods are almost identical.

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I came here for a movie review, not political propaganda.

The simple fact that someone would deem it their 'mission' to inform others on historical rhetoric is both ridiculous and demeaning. Take your crusade elsewhere.So, did anyone here actually WATCH the movie?

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Yeah , the real life story is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better, truth usually is, you should try it.

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Here in Brazil, where i live, Che is considered to be a semi-god. This drives me mad, the man was a freaking murderer, and his main legacy is the actual Cuba, where anyone who opposes Fidel CAstro's directions is shot.

Still, our stupid people here in Brazil admire a lot Che and Castro, and our president, Lula, is a "mini-dictator", or even better, a "wannabe-dictator", inspired by the works of Castro and Chavez. It's pathetic. South America is pathetic. honestly, avoid coming down here."


Wow, I doubt you’re even from South America with the ignorant comments that you’re spitting out. There’s a big reason why Che and Castro are idolized in South America, they’ve done the impossible and continue to push on for their people. Cuba has done more for their citizens then all the lies the US claim it does for the “free world.” During the Radical phase of the revolution, many we’re executed but only because of the crimes, they committed under the regime of Batista. Anyone who opposed Batista especially the guerillas who we’re captured, had their eyes and tongues gouged out or even civilians we’re executed for petty things like providing food for the guerillas. So those officers and generals who were guilty of crimes against humanity we’re given trials to begin with, unlike those Batista imprisoned or executed.


Yet, seeing what Lula has done for my country makes me sick, he is anything but influenced by Cuba or Venezuela just look at these “achievement” he’s done for the people. Therefore, in turn, you’re pathetic for not understanding anything other then US propaganda and that sacrifices that had to be made in certain situations. So just, get off your ass and do something to better our country, instead of bitching to people never to visit South America.

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I've just finished learning about Che and the Cuban revoltuion and it has really made me want to visit South America. Both from a historical and poltical prespective it is interesting and refreshing to learn about a different area of the world, since we are saturated constantly by western (american)politics and prespectives. I think people in the west are very ignorant when it comes to understanding the extent of poverty and political corruption which has occured and continues to occur in South America.

People who merely dismiss Che as a murderer do not apreciate, or have no understanding of his humaniterianism which motivated his poltical beleifs.

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So true, dispite what you might think about the guy, you can't tke away the fact that 40 odd years after his death he is still one of the most popular and loved figures in the world. It is not any easy task to find another name or image that compares to that. And one thing that is clear, around the world he is seen as a hero. If he had of been a North American fighting for "democracy" or civil rights, he'd be known as a hero. Funny how it works.

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yeah but he's been adopted by pop culture, which is fine, but he's been lost behind this enigma where he has come to represent rebellion and anarchy. Teenagers wear him on t-shirts without fully understanding what he stood for.

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In the large scope of things does it really matter? People vote without really knowing what the candidate stands for, people where Nike without knowing what the company does, or put firestone tires on their cars without knowing the history of the company. You as an individual have made a choice to educate yourself about his history, so it is easy to be critical of what teens or others are doing. Just remember that inadvertively you might be sponsoring something you don't completely understand. Pop culture changes the way everyone is seen, I'd be more concerned with the kids wearing admitted gangster shirts then a Che shirt.

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In 1956, when Che linked up with Fidel, Raul and their Cuban chums in Mexico city, one of them (now in exile) recalls Che railing against the Hungarian freedom-fighters as "Fascists!" and cheering their extermination by Soviet tanks.

In 1962 Che got a chance to do more than cheer from the sidelines. He had a hand in the following: "Cuban militia units commanded by Russian officers employed flame-throwers to burn the palm-thatched cottages in the Escambray countryside. The peasant occupants were accused of feeding the counterrevolutionaries and bandits."

At one point in 1962, one of every 19 Cubans was a political prisoner. Fidel himself admits that they faced 179 bands of "counter-revolutionaries" and "bandits."

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Don't americans call Iraq-i freedom fighters terrorists?

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victorin I am surprised how narrow your vision is, only based on information of the victors. You cannot get more biased than that. Besides the movie shows a roadtrip between two friends with different points of view. Nothing about che is mentioned nor his political ideas reflected. It shows inequity and its consecuential feeling, politics is left aside by far. Please dig as many holes as possible before referring with such conviction.

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valser you're completely right, "one mans freedom fighter is another mans terorrist" . What the americans fail to understand is that its all about context and perspective.

Long live post-modernism

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HEY VICTORIN..
is that what you do, Copy Humberto Fontova's anti Che papers..
Atleast give him the reference..

You are nothing but a cut and paste dilhole. Do you have anything to say from your brain, or do you come on IMDB and pretend you know crap.

I guess it makes you feel better at the end of the day.....

ANTI CHE POSER..

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Oh and if it's not from Humberto Fpntava's papers..

Way to copy this guy, ( who copied humberto's papers)

http://www.thelostcitythemovie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=496&sid=32f7aeedce849f160c2615f7da43bfec

I'm out...

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Ahahaha.

Owned!

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Victorin1, you, are conveniently ignoring one rather immense factor in the Cuban Revolution: Batista.

Anti-communist Cubans and American rightists like to dismiss Guevara as a murderer, yet pay no mind to the atrocities rought upon the Cubans by Fulgencio Batista, and pay even less mind to the fact he was propped up and supported by the US government. Castro's rule is certainly repressive and totalitarian, but you beg the question whether or not it is worse than the previous regime.

Castro and Guevara are still immensely popular among older Cubans who remember Batista's government, but are growing increasingly unpopular with the younger generations who lack the contextual experience of their parents and grandparents. So, is Guevara a hero or villain? It all depends on your perspective. For those who suffered under Batista, he's a god. For those who benefitted from Batista, he's a devil. For those who suffer under the Castro regime, he's an ass.

But, one must also ask what the hell this has to do with the Motorcycle Diaries. It's a story about Ernesto Guevara the young man, not Che Guevara the communist revolutionary.

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