MovieChat Forums > Hidalgo (2004) Discussion > Hidalgo: Fact vs Slander?

Hidalgo: Fact vs Slander?


Apologies if this has been discussed before but I don't have the time right now to browse through hundreds of posts, and anyway it would be good to pool all the knowledge again.

Firstly, I really enjoyed the movie, anything with horses is going to be a big hit in my view but I want to know the real story and I thought some of you regular Hidalgo posters would know what's what.

I had a quick search on the net for the truth behind the film. As it's based on a true story I imagined there would be lots of information to look at as I am particularly interested in the part with Hopkins freeing the Mustangs just before they were going to be shot and culled.

However, the first site that came up top in the search was an Endurance Guild or something and there seemed to be nothing but hatred for the movie and indeed Hopkins himself. He is declared as a fraud, a compulsive liar and that he made the entire thing up.

So naturally I was a little taken aback, while I do not take the word of one website as gospel truth, there has to be some truth in the lies, and I would like to know what parts. Some say the Ocean of Fire never took place, ever. Some say that Hopkins wasn't even a rider let alone a long distance champion. His Lakota past has come under scrutiny and just about everything else.

Looking at some of the threads posted here has restored my hope that this website is out purley to tarnish the name of the film.

So, questions that I really want to know the answers to are:

1. Did the Ocean of Fire Race exist?

2. Did Frank Hopkins use the proceeds from the winners purse to free the Mustangs?

Those are the main two, other questions I have will be answered with the rest of my post I don't doubt.

After watching the extras and you see interviews with Native Americans talking about the race and Frank Hopkins, they make a very believable case for the truth side.

So could someone please put my mind at ease as this is now starting to niggle, I suppose I'm more concerned about why this website is so anti-Hopkins.


Oshoryu

"Nonsense, I have not yet begun to defile myself" - Doc Holliday

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To question 1: there doesn't appear to be any reliable evidence that there was any such thing, other than Hopkins' word.

As such, question 2 and the implied question 1.5 (did Hopkins participate in such race if there was such a race) are both moot.

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More evidence than you could ever possibly want that the story is untrue:

http://www.thelongridersguild.com/hopkins.htm

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http://www.frankhopkins.com/

truth, Most endurance riders seek to disproove his existance due to the fact that his methods were considered unacceptable in sociaty

I own a mustang whos bloodlines are traced back to Hidalgo.

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There's thousands of movies that are 'based on a true story' that have a great deal of fabrication involved in the script. Hence, it never really mattered to me whether Hopkin's tale was real or false simply because, if it was real, the story presented in the movie was not.

This did not, however, stop the movie from entertaining the hell out of me.

It amused me, early on, when there was violent slashing at this movie because of it's association with Frank Hopkins and it's claims to be a true story. Of course some of those same people also criticized the film for portraying a Mustang in a light superior to that of a thoroughbred, which let me know exactly where most of those people were coming from.

Some people can just be so violently partisan.:)

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Truth: there is not a single shed of historical evidence that the “Ocean of Fire” race, or any similar race, ever took place. The ONLY evidence that this race ever even existed (let alone Hopkins winning it) is Hopkins' own account. It is mindboggling to imagine that such a race could have existed for centuries, with members of some of the most important and influential Arabian families entering, without at least SOME historical evidence for it existing. If you are aware of any evidence for the race’s existence (other than Hopkins’ own account and material put out by the Disney marketing department) we would certainly all be interested in hearing it.

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Firstly, Frank Hopkins never stated that the race involved members of the most important and influential Arabian families. That appears to be creative license in the movie narrative. Nor did Hopkins ever refer to the race as "The Ocean of Fire." That, too, was created for dramatic purpose. Hopkins said that the race went by a name in Arabic that meant something close to "The Giving of Thanks
Celebration Race."

Not very dramatic; nor is Hopkins' account of the race which is very matter-of-fact, even boring at times. He states that he couldn't do it without the camel caravan that rode with him and his horse over those 60+ days. Hopkins did not create an adventure narrative full of quicksand, leopards and hostile competitors. But he did mention frequent sand storms.

Regarding other sources for the existance of such a race: two highly-respected contemporaries of Hopkins' verified that such a race did exist. The first was
Dr. Ruy D'andrade, a historian and paleontologist who re-discovered the Spanish Sorraia horse. The other was Albert W. Harris, President of the Arabian Horse Club of America and major breeder of Arabian horses. He was also the first to
ever win a government-sponsored endurance race in the U.S.

Dr. D'andrade references the Arabian race in several Spanish language text books. Albert Harris, who traveled to Arabia to research and document bloodlines, also references the race in his 1941 book "Blood of the Arab."
Harris, the American representative of Arabian horses, would not likely validate or celebrate a race involving Arabian horses if he did not have ample evidence.

Military historian J.S. Wall believes that the race was actually held by the British military in Aden at the time.

Dr. Deb Bennett, author of "THE CONQUERORS," states that all horse-owning sheikhs participated in long distance horse events of one kind or another.

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I perfer one of the last lines in "The Man who shot Liberty Valance" Sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend. So Folks I perfer the legend. Besides its a great movie.

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You're obviously just regurgitating something that you found on a website. Probably www.frankhopkins.com By the way, did you know that the guy who owns www.frankhopkins.com is the same guy who wrote the screen play and sold it to Disney? Wow, no conflict of interest there...

What the site where you found your "sources" didn't bother to tell you is that the only references that D'andrade and Harris cite in their accounts are Hopkins' own writings!. It's priceless...a couple of Historians cite Hopkins as their only reference, then later people use those same historians verify Hopkins.

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No, this information comes from careful study of the boxed material mentioned,
correspondence, and phone interviews.

You are right: the guy who wrote Hidalgo started the Frank Hopkins web site-- clearly for the same reason he wrote the movie: he is a long-time Spanish Mustang conservator and an advocate for the preservation of wild horses. Hopkins
has been the patron hero of that community for decades. I don't see it as a conflict of interest. It makes perfect sense: a tribute to a mustang preservationist and a collection of articles on breed history and distance
riding. Fusco has also done a documentary on Hopkins and Spanish Mustangs as
a companion to the movie, so it's pretty much the same thing.

Contrary to Mr. CuChullaine stating that Fusco launched the web site in
response to their attack, there are records here showing that he began the
site with fellow mustang conservators many months before anyone ever even considered challenging Hopkins' reputation. It began as a tribute site (with profiles on today's riders who had been influenced by Hopkins) and an information venue for breed history.

After he accessed materials from the box that the debunkers called "the smoking gun", he incorporated them into the site as they related to Hopkins' horsemanship and to the mustang breed. It was apparently an opportunity to post the writings of Hopkins' that were not being released (as mentioned in my last post).

If we are to believe Mr. CuChullaine, the Frank Hopkins web site was some evil
scheme by Hollywood moguls designed to trick the world. It clearly wasn't the case.

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I'm inclined to believe the story was made up- at least the mid east part. I have yet to be pointed to evidence that doesn't originate from Hopkins.

Where is the Arab evidence? There would be lots of written evidence about such a race, especially if it had a long history.
Perhaps it was based on a short race somewhere then exaggerated and embellished.

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Interesting how quick you are to simply start talking a bunch of crap, calling this person a liar, and then you offer ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to back up any of your lameass trolling tripe. Talk about an idiot--if you have nothing to back your BS up with, I'd suggest keeping your mouth shut to keep people from figuring anything you say the rest of your life is the opinion of an idiot.

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Nice, flaming a six month old post just shows your own ignorance.
Move along.

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If you travel 3000 miles north from Aden, you will end up in Eastern Europe. It's quite clear if you look at a map that it's absolutely impossible to have a 3000 mile race across the desert. There isn't even close to 3000 miles of desert to cross. Unless you ran the race around in circles. If you ran the race from Aden north to Damascus, and then all the way across to the Persian Gulf at Kuwait City, you still would only have around 1700 miles.

Frank Hopkins certainly was an advocate for the Mustangs, and drew a lot of interest to them as a breed - that was most assuredly a good thing. It probably contributed substantially to the saving of the breed. He was quite well known to endurance riders in the fifties, and I know an old endurance rider who met him at a ride in Vermont where he was invited as a guest judge. He obviously did know a good deal about horses. Most people of that time did. He could never have convinced all those newspapers and magazines to publish his stories if he didn't. None of that makes his stories about the races he "won", or his various adventures true though. And there have been a great many people who found themselves quite angry when they realized that they'd fallen for a pack of lies. That's one of the reasons things have gotten rather heated at times.

I know Cuchullaine. And he is a pretty straightforward guy. But he absolutely loves the history of equestrian travel. And he's offended because there have been so many other equestrian travellers who managed such tremendous (not to mention real) feats and have never received anything like the acclaim that Hopkins has gotten because of his tall tales and the resulting movie.

Try looking up http://www.geneglasscock.org for a guy who has just finished travelling over 20,000 miles on horseback visiting the capitals of all 48 states. And this was his second equestrian voyage. In his first, he travelled from the Arctic Circle to the Equator... only 12,000 miles or so. There are an incredible number of really amazing stories of people who rode alone through some of the most forbidding places on earth that are not being told.

Or, if you want an endurance "racing" hero, try Virl Norton who won the Great American Horse Race in 1979. 3000 miles across the US on a pair of Mules named Lady Eloise and Lord Fauntleroy. http://virlnorton.madmoosestudio.com/index.php

Or perhaps you want a horse hero... try Zayante who retired with 13,200 miles of competition (that doesn't include his training and conditioning miles). http://nickwarhol.com/zayhalloffame00.htm Or Rushcreek Lad, or RO Grand Sultan, or Mustang Lady (yes, a Mustang), all of whom are listed in the AERC Hall of Fame at http://www.aerc.org/HallOfFame/horses.html

Fusco's claim that there is some conspiracy among Arabian fanciers against the Mustang is quite silly. I'm an endurance and competitive trail judge. My first horse was a Mustang. My current horse is an Arabian. While Arabians dominate the sport, lots of people ride Mustangs in endurance. Everyone is happy to see them out there. Everyone is happy to see a good horse do well.

I've gotta say too... that it would have been nice if they'd actually USED a mustang in the movie. That was really cute little horse they did use. But he was a registered Paint. Which basically means he was a Quarter Horse with colour. Little feet, big muscles. A good endurance horse has big feet and little muscles... they are the marathon runners of the horse world. Which is why the small wiry Mustang is a popular choice, and also why the even wirier Arabian dominates.

I did enjoy the movie. It was fun, great scenery, lots of adventure, and tons of horses. It would have made it a lot more palatable for people involved in the sport if it had just been billed as fiction though.

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I have been overseeing a student group project on Hopkins that has been
fascinating. We've been given all of the materials in question as well as
contacts with some respected old-time horsemen who knew Hopkins personally.

You are correct: Hopkins was passionate about mustang preservation and inspired
several generations of conservators. He proved himself on horseback and could still handle horses in his 80's that young equestrians couldn't touch. There are first-hand accounts of him being summoned to the Rockefeller Estate on several occassions to train or doctor difficult horses.

The several old-timers who remember him speak of him with a sincere respect
and truly liked him as a person. A few of them were distance riders and express a pride in having learned from Hopkins. When told that some doubt that Hopkins was an accomplished distance rider, they either get offended or laugh. Lack of documentation doesn't faze them because they knew enough contemporaries of Hopkins' who validated him, and they were also witness to his character and skills.

You state, dismissively, in your post, that most people knew a lot about horses in the 1950's. Even if that was true (which it is not), Hopkins was fairly revered even in the most accomplished equestrian circles. It would be a stretch to believe that he achieved that purely with a gift for wonderful storytelling.

There is little doubt that your friend Mr. CuChullaine absolutely loves equestrian travel. I am sure that he has contributed a lot to the field. But as
far as him being "a pretty straight forward guy," on the subject at hand, you might consider some disturbing details:

Why did he debase Frank Hopkins' horsemanship knowledge and hide it from the public during his alleged search for Truth? Along with portraying the late Hopkins as a pathological liar, criminal, and "ghoul," he has stated boldly that
Hopkins didn't know the first thing about horses and never sat anything but a stool on his porch.

Yet, it was Mr. CuChullaine himself who discovered a lost box of Hopkins' materials in a university museum, a box which contained Hopkins' impressive
articles and notes on training, distance riding, saddle fit, etc, etc. This
box also contained photos of Hopkins on horseback, yet Mr. CuChullaine stated--even on the jacket of his book about the "hoax"--that there is "not even one known photograph of Hopkins on horseback!" (His exclamation point).

Meanwhile, some of the old-timers who unexpectedly came forward, have not only identified Hopkins in the photos, but took some of the photos themselves sixty years ago.

Your friend, being a horseman, knew the truth of this matter, but hid it and
defamed this facet of Hopkins in an apparent effort to wholly destroy the man's name. These materials were only accessed (your friend reportedly refused to share the materials with the filmmakers) when the university museum allowed every item in the box to be copied by members of a respected rancher family in the area.

Why, in his presentations to historians and the press did he state that Charles Roth, the man he claims started a hoax, "met Hopkins in a bar?"

Roth learned of Hopkins from veteran distance riders and travelled from Denver to meet him at his home. Why would someone twist the truth into "met him in a bar." I think the answer is pretty clear. The goal was to sully the man's reputation as much as possible.

If this was a prosecutor in a court of law, the case against Hopkins would be thrown out for obvious reasons. When someone goes that far, with such over-stated contempt, their entire position is suspect. No wonder the filmmakers wouldn't buckle.

This is not to say that Hopkins didn't add some miles to his telling as he got older, or maybe even ammended his recall with some color, but to portray him as
a criminal backfires on the accusers.







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