MovieChat Forums > Jisatsu sâkuru (2021) Discussion > The worst film I've ever watched.

The worst film I've ever watched.

posted 17 years ago by Mujah
74 replies | jump to latest

I saw this movie years ago, long before it was being sold in Hot Topic (I was still in high school). At the time, me and my best friend had never, ever had an argument yet on a matter of difference of opinion. Discussing this movie, we got to the point where we were shouting at each other in the middle of the street.
He thought that it was a beautiful, amazing, wise movie that was parodying the extremity of trendiness nowadays and how ridiculous it gets, while at the same time showing that life was indeed worth living, as symbolized by the one girl choosing life over death in the end.
I thought it was banal and disgusting, and was, for first and only time, infuriated by the movie. I understood the concept and what he was saying, but I thought it was being handled far too lightly and jokingly, and that the anti-suicide message was far, far, far too small in comparison to the minimalization of the impact of suicide throughout the rest of the movie.
This wouldn't have been nearly as much of an issue if he wasn't planning on showing this to one of our more depressed and occasionally suicidal friends. She was a good friend of both of ours, and while he thought that it would help her, I thought it could severely damage her in the state she was in.

Putting the infuriating fashion in which the movie jokingly handles an extremely serious topic aside, I'm not even worried about the movie because of its brash immaturity and insensitivity to the subject matter. I can ignore that, it doesn't affect me.
I'm more worried about the unstable people who will watch it and not be intelligent/sensible/stable enough to extract the anti-suicide message out from under the convoluted mess of what can VERY easily be interpreted as "suicide is funny and no big deal!"
It's dangerous, and disgusting, and the director's use of borderline-*guro* style to convey what he believes to be a very important message is a sign of immense irresponsibility and immaturity. I simply cannot approach this film with anything other than disgust.

It's because of this that I consider this to be the worst movie I've ever seen. It's not a matter of the skill or quality of the filmmaking methods, but a matter of the message and the execution of its intended purpose.
I simply can't get my head around the concept that people consider this to be a good movie by overlooking all of the negative aspects because of the "redeeming" ending.

That's the main point, but before ending this, I need to point out: I'm not a straight-edge, stuck-up kind of guy. Hell, I know what "guro" is. I was a fan of Troma films for a long time (and still kind of am). I love horror, especially gory horror. I like movies with social commentary, and actually enjoyed Battle Royale quite a bit, despite its occasionally pretentious and cheesy execution. I even own the book.
I'm a casual fan of Takashi Miike, and was very excited to hear that him and Gaspar Noe were toying with the idea of making a movie together. I love disturbing films, and am always actively searching for more.
So please, don't discount my negative view of Suicide Club to be because I can't handle it, or because I don't get it. I get it. I just think it was stupid and incredibly irresponsible film conceived by a very immature and pretentious individual.

Alright. Let loose the dogs of war.

[–] HeiseiGameraFan 17 years ago

So let me get this straight...you consider it to be the worst film you ever saw because YOUR OWN OPINION...contrary to most other viewers, the awards, the international fame and acclaim, and, most importantly, the real message of the film...is that the subject matter is handled too lightly and the movie is too convoluted for some people to understand. Then, years after watching the film, you took the time to write a 590 word rant on why your opinion (again, contrary to most other viewers, the awards, the international fame and acclaim, and, most importantly, the real message of the film) makes this the worst movie ever...in your opinion. Wow...I just...wow...that's all I have to say.

It’s ironic that in this age of “tolerance” we are the most afraid of offending people.

[–] Mujah 17 years ago

Well, then, let me rephrase that: In my opinion, this is the worst film I have ever seen. The main reason I used that headline was I wanted someone like you to come along and defend the movie, maybe encourage me to see it again.
I would like to understand why so many seem to think this movie is so great, but I'm going to need some kind of incentive from someone, since I'm going to have to make the effort to rent it if I want to see it again.
I enjoy foreign cinema a LOT, and Asian films are in there as well (I prefer Korean films, but Japanese films have their own flavor and allure). In my experience, however, a lot of people seem to view Asian films as deep and wise and clever even when they're not. Many, many people liked the film "Hero," whereas I thought the movie was complete garbage. I accepted it more after I learned about the folk tale it depicted, but mostly it was long and boring and pretentious. A lot of people fall for that just because there are subtitles.
This movie's been compared to Battle Royale, which I think is completly senseless. Battle Royale was a great movie because it had both a serious side to it (the main character and the situations he's forced to deal with) and a ridiculous, horror-movie-esque side to it ("He's here for fun?" Oh noes! Look out for Mr. Crazy!). That, and watching Japanese schoolgirls act incredibly stupid and then get shot for it is always fun.
I tried to view Suicide Club from a similar angle, but it just didn't work. I couldn't find the serious side to it, and the humor was nothing short of stunningly inappropriate.

Also, the opinions of people seems to be pretty evenly spread. On Amazon.com right now, the ratings breakdown is as such:
5 Stars: 30 votes
4 Stars: 20 votes
3 Stars: 20 votes
2 Stars: 13 votes
1 Star: 16 votes
On top of that, out of the people I've spoken to who have seen the movie, it's been almost exactly 50/50. Some people thought it was interesting, some thought it was really good, and some people thought it was one of the most disgusting pieces of trash that they'd ever seen.
You can tout international acclaim all you like, but the reviews you'll hear about and be told about are probably usually going to be the good ones. Nobody likes raving about their negative reviews (except for The Boondocks, but that's different).
On IMDB right now, the rating is at 6.6, with the highest-voting demographic being people under the age of eighteen.
As for awards, what rewards? The ones from the Fant-Asia Film Festival for "Most Ground-Breaking"? I would give a damn if it had gotten anything but that, but I can completely understand a group of pretentious judges at an Asian film festival giving this movie such an award. Give this to something that's any country's equivelant of America's Academy Awards and you'll probably get quite a different reaction.
International fame and acclaim? Sorry, but you'll have to point me to more references. I've only seen the reactions from Americans. The only real fame and acclaim it has over here right now is, again, from people who love Asian movies so much that they're biased to the point of being beyond reason, and Hot Topic teenagers.
I don't mind the real message of this movie, I just think it's a terrible delivery. He should have been more responsible with it.

Yes, it is my own opinion. I came here to discuss it with people of a different opinion.
If you could reply again with an actual structured argument instead of comparing me to people who think it's good (and pretty much implying that I'm a moron), I would appreciate it. You obviously appreciate this movie, and you seem like an intelligent and passionate person (I read your post replying to the implied connection between Oldboy and the Virginia Tech tragedy).
Help me understand this movie. Tell me something about it that I might not have considered, something provocative enough to make me go out and spend the five dollars to rent it.
Again, the title was only to get someone in here. I feel it's definitely the most irresponsible and disgusting movie I've ever watched, but the worst? Only because it offended me. I've seen plenty worse.
So, respectfully, civilly, I ask you, please: Give me a reason to re-evaluate this film.

Thank you.

[–] chriscoates 17 years ago

I agree with most of what you say. The ending was incredibly cloying and simplistic. I don't think there was anything wrong with the message but it was realised in such a unbelievably childlike (how's that for irony?) and unsophisticated way that it was ridiculous.
I felt cheated.
____________________________________
"...needless to say, I had the last laugh."

[–] Mujah 17 years ago

On a board full of people who seem to automatically file me under "IDIOT" as soon as they see that I don't like this movie, it's definitely good to have someone who agrees (and punctuates! =P ) post a reply. Thanks for that, and the much shorter way of putting your thoughts on here. I don't talk like this, but get me a keyboard and I'm one wordy guy.
Did you salvage anything from this movie? Do you have any interest in seeing the rest of the trilogy?

[–] chriscoates 17 years ago

There were things I liked about the film. The idea of groups of teenagers commiting mass suicide for an unknown reason is a really strong one and it's the reason this film gets the attention it does. The beginning is really well done and grabs your attention and is so over the top that it's almost comical (which I think was the point).
Because of these things I overlooked some of the, really odd, changes in pace. One minute it's like Ringu or The Eye in its atmospherics and presentation and then it suddenly abandons that tack and becomes something else for a while.

After the disappointment of the ending I looked back on the rest of the film and decided it suffered from not knowing what it wanted to be. There were Ringu-like horror moments, police pot-boiler elements and some awkward social-commentary all muddled together.

People who see this film as having something important to say talk about how the writer drew on tragic happenings in his own life. His wanting to take this part of his life, try to understand something of it, and produce something that could have a positive effect on people is admirable. It doesn't make this a good film though.

In that way it really reminded me of Battle Royale 2 in that it tries to say something incredibly deep and meaningful but actually ends up seeming adolescent and pretentious.

Trilogy? I didn't know there were more. What are they called?

____________________________________
"...needless to say, I had the last laugh."

[–] Mujah 17 years ago

If they were based on events in his own life, then I really think that he didn't grow from them so much as become emotionally damaged and accepted it. This movie really seemed to be the work of someone who wanted to say he knew what he was talking about because he'd been through rough things, but really hadn't learned from them yet. I went through some messy things in high school, and I felt I knew better than other people for a couple of years. It wasn't until a few years later that I truly gained the benefits of the things that had happened, when I sat down and truly thought about them objectively and considered the impacts they had on everyone involved.
I'm not saying he had no right to make this movie, but his view on these things is from a very different perspective, and I feel like he really, really had no idea how the everyday person would view such things.

The second part is called "Noriko's Dinner Table," and I don't know what the third part is yet. Noriko's Dinner Table hasn't been released in the US, as far as I know, and I don't know its status in Europe. I'm sure you could find it if you hunted online, though.

[–] chriscoates 17 years ago

Getting a film made, even a really bad one, takes so much time and sheer effort that I've got nothing but admiration for anyone who manages to turn out something half watchable. But I'm trying to fill the many gaps in my film knowledge at the moment and I haven't got time to watch anything I suspect I'm not going to like.
If this had been the film-makers' first film I would be more interested in seeing his other work. But it's not - he'd produced a few films before this and he's at an age where he should be pretty settled creatively.

I watched this the other day;

http://www.uk.imdb.com/title/tt0056119/

It's the short film that inspired Twelve Monkeys. It's one of the most remarkable pieces of cinema I've seen in my life. And it says more about life and living in its twenty-odd minutes than any other film I've seen.

____________________________________
"...needless to say, I had the last laugh."

[–] autumn_shadows 17 years ago

International fame and awards have nothing to do with how good something is. Avril and Britney are world-famous Grammy winners with tons of fans.

[–] nicolawicz-1 17 years ago

All I saw was some tedious, boring, ugly film. And for some reason, it causes me nausea (nothing to do with the message of the movie, I think; it must be something about the director's style).

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Z_cm 17 years ago

The worst film I've ever watched.

I think you need to watch more movies!

This a pretty good movie, it's not super-duper amazing or anything... it's trying to be absurd on purpose, I don't think it's meant as suicide therapy. Just yesterday, I caught a bit about Orson Welles' infamous radio broadcast, wasn't that irresponsible and immature too? Well, some people call it genius!

And obviously, this movie strikes a chord with many people, maybe you should try to put yourself in their shoes and understand why they love it. Of course, if you come to a forum dedicated to a certain movie and bash it, you won't get a lot of sympathy, but hang in there. ;)

[–] Mujah 17 years ago

Actually, that's kind of why I came to this forum. The title was intentionally provocative to get people to read what I wrote, which I'm not sure you did. >_>
Thank you for the support, but I just want someone to give me a reason to watch this again from a different perspective; I have yet to hear any kind of intelligent evidence that makes me think that maybe my point of view about the movie will be different now.

[–] srinath_r_htanirs 12 years ago

Why should anyone spend time to make you watch this again? Especially when there are other threads that explain this movie well, and you should have it to do some research before you rant. Meanwhile your understanding that this movie is about suicides and anti-suicides is way-off.

You can have your opinion on a movie, after you know for sure the idea of the movie and how it has portrayed that. If you aren't good enough to understand the symbolisms(you don't even have an idea what the movie is about), or atleast good enough to follow up and try to understand, you shouldn't be watching these kinds of movies, that require some sort of interaction and intellect from its audience.

My suggestion for you

Instead of ranting

1) Do some research to get what the movie is saying if you are open enough.
2) If not choose movies that you can watch without needing to think(avoid movies that are beyond you)

[–] Mujah 9 years ago

Your assumptions about my intelligence are hilariously asinine.
I know what I'm talking about. I just disagree with the film's methods, style, and tone. It's amazing that you don't understand the difference between "don't like" and "don't understand."
I'll go watch some Kurosawa and Bergman and ponder humanity while you play around in your teenage-depth pop-culture *beep* Or... wait, those must be the kinds of less intelligent movies that you're talking about, since I love them so much. I'll leave the deeper fare like Suicide Club for the experts like you.

[–] kaempfer512 17 years ago

I'd like to ask you if there is a specific part you thought was handled jokingly, or if it was a general feeling you got over the course of the movie. In my opinion, the major deaths are handled with gravity and acknowledgment of the personal impact of suicide. The deaths of characters that appear for one or two scenes instead serve to establish the film's world, where those who kill themselves do not give a damn if they die. It's not very different from the characters in Battle Royale; we care when the main characters get hurt or killed, but don't feel especially emotional when the secondary characters get offed in huge numbers. They are simply window-dressing for the central conflicts of the film.

Making some assumptions here, which you can feel free to correct me on, I would guess the reason you enjoy gory horror films is because they are (usually) clearly outside the realm of reality. It's easier to digest and accept a violent satire or social commentary when the violence is unrealistically over-the-top. When it is too close to real events or too closely identified with real societal problems, it is seen as at best insensitive, at worst a facilitator for real-life problems.

Imagine if Battle Royale was made not with broad-brush-strokes of unrealistic physical violence, but as a hyper-realistic mock documentary where the killings are not unlike those seen in American History X. The focus of viewers would shift to anger over the depiction of violence rather than the strength of the film's message (and perhaps rightly so - particular audience members can end up finding anything "funny" or worthy of imitating). Granted, Battle Royale is not a very good example because the premise itself, of a dystopian society that manages its wild youth by throwing them into mass free-for-all-deathmatches, is outlandish enough that its satirical intent should be readily apparent regardless of the film's style.

What I think Suicide Club is doing is using suicide as an allegorical vehicle to describe certain people's sense of self-dissatisfaction. I wrote a long response about this that nobody read in the thread "What disconnection?", if you have some time to kill. I think a lot of people have trouble accepting the movie as an allegory or satire because after the first shocking scene, the secondary-character suicides become discomfortingly frequent and the movie does not step in to say "remember, this is bad" every time. There is no clear moral thread that the film gives the viewer to grab onto, leaving the viewer to stumble through grasping for his own interpretation and viewpoint. The viewer can come to the end with the same conclusion as Mitsuko, or get thrown off course and get mired in the same mess as just about every other character in the movie. I think this is the movie's stroke of genius, but if the movie was intended to be a strictly anti-suicide statement it is not exactly effective. Of course, it should be rather clear that the film is not a public service announcement.

I had a similar reaction to yours when I watched Lost in Translation. In retrospect, the depiction of Japanese culture is clearly the film's method of visualizing alienation and disconnection, but when I watched it all I could think about was how certain stereotypes were played for laughs, and I began to confuse the characters' general dissatisfaction (visualized by their interaction with Japan) for the filmmaker's lack of respect. I would probably not have had that reaction if the film was set in some other "exotic" country or on some other planet; the film's intended effect is overshadowed by my personal background. From what you wrote, you have personal experience being around a friend who has considered suicide, so the issue may be a touchy one for you; for that I have no argument, and I respect and agree with your decision to keep the movie away from that friend. But as for the movie being irresponsible? I would say it's about as irresponsible as Lost in Translation or American History X; take that as you will.

[–] chriscoates 17 years ago

kaempfer512;
Do you agree that narratively the film is a bit of a mess? There are a couple of scenes that are clearly being played for Ringu/Eye/Grudge shocks (the disappearing nurse scene is good example) but stick out like a sore thumb. They don't progress the story and they're totally out of kilter with the rest of the film...

____________________________________
"...needless to say, I had the last laugh."

[–] kaempfer512 17 years ago

I guess it depends on what you mean by "mess". I agree completely that the film is narratively all over the place, shifting tones and directions to the point where it seems like it doesn't know where it's trying to go. There's that nurse scene, the suicide montage, the Genesis music video, and the surreal segment with the kids and the stage, all of which are out of step with the detective story that provides the backbone of the narrative.

What I think, though, is that these are the film's way of placing us in the position of the policemen and detectives searching for the reason behind the suicides. Just like how the police try to grab onto various "easy" explanations for the suicides, such as pop culture, peer pressure, evil cults, and charismatic criminals like Genesis, the viewer tries to quickly and easily understand the film based on experience with various genres and styles (horror films, detective movies, surrealist cinema) that all appear in Suicide Club. As you have personally experienced, this doesn't work - the "shocker" elements clearly lead nowhere and don't connect with the other elements.

This links up with the way the police wildly grasp at simple solutions, thinking that if they do X, the suicides will stop as a causative effect. However, each of their efforts is proven futile: they check for tattoos, but lots of people have them and don't kill themselves; they look for large groups of teenagers at the train station, but they don't jump; they arrest Genesis, the man claiming to be behind everything, but nothing changes. Even the appearance of the bizarre cult, which is set up to be the true force behind the suicides, doesn't explain everything - why does Mitsuko, who has all the "warning signs" (tattoo, contact with the cult, shaved patch of skin), not commit suicide also?

The film's central narrative is about a group of authority figures who struggle to combat a problem that appears to be eating society from the inside out, and whose only "solution" is to look for outside forces like cults and hope that the problem will magically disappear once all the bad guys are found. I think the film's conflicting narrative style is meant to tangibly communicate that urge to reduce a complex issue to one simple explanation. This is why I like the movie so much - the entire construction of the film is vital to its point, instead of presenting these ideas in an easily flowing narrative style that would no doubt facilitate understanding, but would be contrary to the ideas behind the film.

When we watch movies we come to a conclusion on what the film was about, and any scene that doesn't fit that conclusion is interpreted as unnecessary and detracting to the overall flow of the film. The way I watch movies is no different; I just happen to subscribe to an interpretation of Suicide Club that explains and allows for these scenes.

I apologize if it looks like I'm trying to blindside your brief question with a wall of text. To put it succinctly: Yes, I agree that the film is narratively a mess. But I think this is one of the film's assets, not a problem.

[–] dragonystic 17 years ago

Excellent review. I thought the exact same thing...except for me, the "narrative mess" was a problem and not an asset. Surely there are more fluid and coherent ways to get the main point across.

Still, I enjoyed it. It was an ok film.

[–] ctizon 17 years ago

Yeah, there are definitely more fluid ways, but then it wouldn't stir up as much conversation / controversy =]

I love the movie. If you want a movie with a more clear story, watch the second one (Noriko's Dinner Table), but the narrative is shown from 4 different points of view so it leaps back in forth in time. Still, it concentrates on the same characters, ideas, and plots, so it is easier to grasp than this one. =]

Who is more foolish - the child afraid of the dark or the man afraid of the light?

[–] poetinarms 17 years ago

Thanks kaempfe, I just watched this movie this evening, hated it, and I truly didn't get it. Thanks for sharing your take on the message. That makes a lot of sense.

Still hate it though and here is why: When I started to realize this was a movie about a weird mystery, I was baffled. My reaction went from "oh, I thought suicide was a complicated issue in Japan, I wonder how this weird mystery will address it" to "hmm, is this just a weird fantasy?" to "oh my goodness, this is a bloodbathe" to "okay, can't watch anymore" about three scenes from the end. I guess for me, the message was completely lost because it is something that I kind of take for granted is "duh" true, and the violence and grossness and convolutedness made it unwatchable.

[–] srinath_r_htanirs 12 years ago

They don't progress the story, but can't you just put it into you that the director is not going to throw in some random scenes? Of course can't they have symbolisms, allegories, metaphors? Just because you cannot interpret those scenes doesn't mean they stick out like a sore thumb, or the movie lacks coherence.

If that is the case, only linear narration will ever have coherence. It is beyond my understanding how non-linear hollywoodised narrations like Pulp Fiction are applauded for their 'intelligent unconventional writing', while movies like Suicide Club, Naked Lunch(both have far more substance and purpose) are disregarded as incoherent and messy for the same reason. Baffling.

[–] howcanyoubesure 17 years ago

I recommend you The Bridge (in both senses, i mean, pun intended, really intended).

[–] autumn_shadows 17 years ago

While I disagree with the fact that it makes the director immature to produce such a film, I have to say it disgusts me that they now sell it at Hot Topic. That's just evidence that many Americans aren't getting the message and instead are thinking "hey, suicide is cool" or just enjoying the gore. I don't believe in censoring ideas of any sort, but honestly we shouldn't be handing emo kids something that just reinforces their idealization of suicide.

[–] Mujah 17 years ago

That's my biggest problem with this movie. I understand the message behind it, but I think that the methods he used to convey it were poorly thought out. When it's subtle to the point where some people could miss it completely, then there is a huge problem.

[–] srinath_r_htanirs 12 years ago

You want to be spoon-fed. I get it. You want the makers to stick it up on your face. Right. You want it to be hollywoodised like 'A Beautiful Mind' where what's real and what's not is stuck up your face. Or an 'Inception' with on the nose dialogue over-explaining what's seen by your eyes?(No disrespect to those movies as they had other decent to good aspects, but the point is, it shouldn't be one way, it has to be interactive - make you feel, make think, any movie should do that. When it demands you to think, you complain).

[–] Mujah 9 years ago

You're pretentious and rude. My dislike of this garbage is based in much deeper feelings than your assumption of intellectual laziness. You seem more intent on looking down on others for DARING to see something that you like to be stupid.
Which it is.
This is a stupid, stupid movie, and you need to watch better movies.

[–] Misanthropic_Humanist 17 years ago

It really was a weak movie. I didn't enjoy not because of the gore et cetera but I was bored by the pretentiousness of it all. What's worse are these wapanese otaku folk who climax over anything Japanese while the majority of them don't know a thing about Japan outside of anime and popular movies. It's gore for the sake of gore. To see postings from these elitist, delusional film students is equally tedious.

Cure was a better movie as is that pseudo-documentary one about a film director investigating a story about an ancient demon.

________________________
http://MySpace.com/NYCPulpwriter

[–] designatedkb 17 years ago

I don't think this movie is the worst ever. I do agree that it doesn't do a great job spreading a message. This was JUST a horror or splatter film. I did appreciate the ideas in the movie and they are something to mull over which often times does make for a good movie because it makes you think and talk.

As for the suicides being irresponsible because they were kind of comedic, I disagree. The director might see that there is humor in life and death. I can say personally that my one suicide attempt was a funny story. When I think about my attempt it makes me smirk and when I told close friends about it I tell it like a joke (which does get some laughs). (on a side note I was treated with pills and group therapy which is really boring) Having said that, the suicides in this movie were caused by an unknown force or monster because it was a horror movie and weren't suicides at all but murders. What's more the suicides were representative of something, I'm not sure what. There was a lot of talk about connections to the self which we may or may not understand because our two social structures are different. Also, the family of the officer didn't really connect as they were too busy with the internet or the girl group, desart. So you pick your social critique to fit in its place or perhaps it was general angst. Plus, since the cops were older and the suicidal kids were younger I want to say that there is something about age relations in the movie but I don't know. Its hard to understand something so Japanese with a western view.

However, I do believe that even the Japanese would say it was a mediocre movie with some interesting points. I personally liked it when Genesis said that, " Reality can't be seen with the naked eye."

[–] kaempfer512 17 years ago

Who's elitist? Someone who makes an effort to understand the film and help others understand, or someone who writes off everyone who doesn't agree with him? Someone who says "such and such is a better movie" as if it were fact and resorts to name-calling to make a point is quite the elitist himself.

Looking at your Myspace (so conveniently linked in your signature), it appears you derive great pleasure from fitting yourself and others into convenient little categories and labels. It's no wonder your view of the movie is so superficial.

Unoriginal retort about pretension and elitism in 3, 2, 1...

To maybe salvage something constructive out of this post, do you mind telling us what the "pseudo-documentary" is called?

[–] allouttanames 17 years ago

Please lighten up.

I was not thrilled about this movie either (there is much better stuff out there), but I think you're taking it to the extreme. You're worried about "unstable people" being influenced by this film to kill themselves? Newsflash, unstable people can be influenced by just about anything. Remember "The Matrix" being blamed for Columbine shootings? It's absurd. Name a movie you really love, and I can put the same spin on it and blame it for inciting <insert unspeakable evil>. Film is an art form... And like any other art form, it can envoke strong emotions. If someone chooses to kill themselves, it's not because they watched a movie, it's because they're messed up in the head to begin with. Stop blaming artists for the crimes they did not commit.

[–] Mujah 17 years ago

Again, it's not "the worst film I've ever watched". It's one of the most irresponsible, but it's definitely a well put-together movie.

Your logic regarding "unstable people" is not really coherent. I'm talking about how several of my friends and I agreed that this film saturated the viewer with far too much suicide in a very lighthearted manner.
Yes, "The Matrix" was blamed for the Columbine shootings. So were Doom and Marilyn Manson. As someone who has been a fan of all three of those at some point, I consider that notion to be absurd. Shooting things in Doom is nothing near realistic enough to be blamed, The Matrix is stylized sci-fi that could only be viewed as inspiration for such things by someone who's already too far into that mindset, and Marilyn Manson makes rock music.
I agree that this movie isn't something that can make a normal, everyday person suddenly stab themselves in the throat for the hell of it, but I was referring to a friend of mine wanting to show it to to someone who was already depressed. That's primarily where my fears lie, that this movie is handling some very intense subject matter in a manner that I find to be extremely irresponsible and immature.
The worst part about this is primarily the fact that this is now being sold at Hot Topic, where it will reach the hands of a lot of teenagers who will either:
A) Think it's cool and funny, being too stupid to see it as anything more than a gratuitous gore-fest.
or B) Be seriously affected by it in a negative manner and make that push to suicide that they've been contemplating for a while, being too depressed to know any better.
I'm more concerned about category "B". I knew a few kids that were that bad in high school, and I can honestly say that a couple of them were so depressed because they were so much more intelligent than their surroundings. They saw the world going to hell and people getting stupider, not to mention that most of the time they had deep-seated issues regarding their situations at home and/or relationships with members of the opposite sex.
These people were some of the best people I knew, morally and intellectually. Just because someone is suicidal doesn't mean they're stupid, it simply means that they are too depressed and just that desperate for some kind of escape or release.
I cannot be okay with this film simply because it could push a couple of kids too far over that edge when they could have just as easily been brought back by something a little more life-affirming.

[–] Zzx1988 17 years ago

Everyone stop saying pretentious...

[–] Mujah 17 years ago

Should I start using the word ostentatious instead?

[–] Zzx1988 17 years ago

It's just annoying, I see one person on every board calling a movie pretentious, and half I feel don't even know what the word means, (not on this board), but its just a trend that's getting quite annoying.

Ostentatious, lol, sure go for it.

[–] Mujah 17 years ago

Heh, I know what you mean. One person's ambiguous and pretentious is another's incredibly wise and brilliant, and most people call a lot of art pretentious in general. It's irritated me when I try to explain why things like Krzysztof Kieslowski's Three Colors Trilogy are so beautiful, and some of my friends dismiss it as pretentious.
The meaning of pretentious (to me, anyway) is simply that somebody is trying to say something that sounds wise or intelligent when even they don't really know what they're talking about. This movie is the very definition of that, in my eyes, because I have had suicidally depressed friends in the past and I know what it's like to deal with such things. The way that this film deals with the matter and then attempts to say that it's anti-suicide is downright insulting, and I'm not one to be easily offended.

[–] srinath_r_htanirs 12 years ago

You say your friends have said that three colours was pretentious(which I don't believe), you can understand how it feels for us, when you claim the same for this, which we believe is great.

So you mean, if your friends say three colours is pretentious, they don't know what it means(you are absolute),

but when you say Suicide Club is pretentious, you know what you are talking about(you are absolute).

Somebody needs to watch Rashomon..

[–] Mujah 9 years ago

The Three Colors Trilogy is objectively good filmmaking, period. I'm not absolute, I'm reading interviews and studying the cinematography. It is possible for some things to be objectively high-quality.

When I posited that Suicide Club is pretentious, I explained my stance and problems with it in depth. I don't see you refuting any of those points in depth.

Rashomon is alright, but give me Ikiru, Red Beard, or Dersu Uzala any day.

I don't need you to believe me. You're wrong and obviously ill-equipped to actually discuss this topic.

[–] allouttanames 17 years ago

You're saying that Doom, Matrix et all are "nothing near realistic" - but I feel neither was this movie. The scene on the rooftop was so implausible it was almost laughable! NO ONE does this sort of thing unless they'be been fed insane amount of drugs and spent years prior in isolation being brainwashed. So your logic isn't exactly working here either... If you're afraid this movie might affect young people, then you should also worry about movies like Requiem For A Dream or Dead Poets' Society or Girl Interrupted, because they might affect them in a "wrong" way. You forget about one very important word: INTERPRETATION. Suicide Club doesn't really spell anything out for us. Some will find it pro-suicide while others will believe it's strongly anti. Who's right? No one. It depends on the individual viewer.

My point stands, a disturbed/unstable person can take just about anything and interpret it however they wish, and then act on it. To me, the ending of SC was rather optimistic and ANTI suicide, but like I said... someone might interpret it in a completely opposite way.

[–] Mujah 17 years ago

This movie was unrealistic in its portrayal of the personalities within. I actually DID laugh at the rooftop scene when I saw it, to be completely honest. I laughed at the opening, too, because it was so absurd. Then it kept going, and going, and going, and going. It was just too much.
The Matrix and Doom are unrealistic and easier to dismiss because they actually take place in fantasy worlds. There are creatures in them that do not exist, people can fly, there are laser guns, they're on Mars, etc. The only unrealistic factor in this movie is that it exaggerates the absurdity.
The problem with this kind of attitude is that the plot eventually turns to suicide being mainstream and popular. I remember the exact scenes that made me stop giving the movie a chance. It's been a while, so I don't remember which one was first, but there was the montage scene with the mother slicing through her hand while ignoring her grade-school aged child, who's standing right there, and the guy stabbing himself in the throat onstage. The other scene was when they were in that room and, as that man sang, another member of his group went under a blanket and started to rape and stab a girl for no particular reason. And then the man stomped on a puppy for the hell of it, if I remember correctly.
I don't see how you could take something like that and compare it to Requiem for a Dream, which is a movie that beautifully portrays the downward spiral into addiction and the life-destroying effect it has. Dead Poet's Society and Girl Interrupted both portray the suicides that occur in their plotlines as horrible, horrible things that have life-shattering impacts.
Suicide Club looks like it was made by some stupid high school kid who thought, "Hey, what if suicide became popular? That would be an awesome movie!"
A disturbed/unstable person, believe it or not, can NOT take just about anything and interpret it however they wish. They are still capable of intelligent thought processes. The ones you're referring to are likely the ones who do it for attention, or to seem cool. Yes, those kinds of people exist. In droves, no less. The problem is that their general attitude towards it minimalizes the problems of the ones who actually ARE at that point.
The difference between all of the movies you have mentioned and this one is that Suicide Club DIRECTLY addresses the subject of suicide, and does so very irresponsibly. One of my friends had a girlfriend he put up with for a long time, and he told me that one of the issues was that she would start a long argument over nothing for a few hours, and then apologize. However, the one apology doesn't make up for the hours of BS that he was assaulted with.
This movie is the same way. The ending, where ONE PERSON chose not to do anything, really doesn't make up for the literally dozens upon dozens upon dozens of people you've seen take their own lives at a whim throughout the rest of the movie.

[–] wnip 17 years ago

I hate message boards and it's when I read people like Mujah post things that I know it's worth reading. Thought I don't share the same opinion as you on the essence, I liked very much the idea of the title of the post, the explanation and everything else you said. It was so perfect I'm surprised you even got replies. You definetly are not an idiot and I give you the Master of message board diploma. But in my opinion, art is free from censorship and I think that people are free to consume or produce what they want. Let it be, like Lennon once said. It's been an honor to reply to you lol

[–] Mujah 17 years ago

Firstly, thank you very much for the compliments. It's an age of trolls and imbeciles, and I hope by doing my best to keep it as civil and intelligent as I can to prompt others to do the same. After all, when you see a well thought-out and provocative reply to something, is it usually to a "this movie sucks all asian movies are stupid" kind of post or one that actually explains their argument?
These forums are, first and foremost, a place for people who love movies to find others who feel the same and have discussions with them. I love battling opinions; it widens awareness of others.

As for the rest of it, I am in no way promoting censorship. If anything, the only reason that I begrudgingly give the movie some kudos is that it exists in the way that it does. If everyone who thought a movie was too violent or horrible or irresponsible got their way in the movie industry...
Well, anyone who keeps up with video games enough knows about the whole debacle around "Manhunt 2". It looked to be one of the most provocative and edgy games ever created, and then it got censored into something that sounds like it won't have even a quarter of the emotional impact that it originally became so infamous for.
Things like this anger me to no end, and the existence of Suicide Club as an uncut retail DVD is not necessarily a bad thing. Art is something that deserves to be unrestrained. How else would it be able to grow in new directions and provoke new ideas and thoughts from its audiences?
However, my criticism towards this film is towards two parties: The artist himself for not considering the potential negative impact the film could have on vulnerable parties, and the retail entity of Hot Topic (owned by The Gap, no less) that has sunk so far into the concept of "profit is everything" that they are literally marketing a movie about suicide becoming popular to the group of kids who is most susceptible to the negative parts of this film.
I find parts of the film to be ridiculous and to serve no purpose in conveying the message that the filmmaker supposedly intended. Specifically, one scene that I'm referring to is the scene that accompanies the song "The Dead Sing All Night Long". Japanese horror films tend to be gratuitous and in-your-face in ways that upset you, simply because they're trying to get that reaction. Honestly, if that scene had been in a movie that was more along those lines, then I think I might have had no problem with it. The problem is that it was in THIS movie, where it served no purpose, especially if the creator was trying to be taken seriously.
I know I've said it before, but I reiterate: I find this film to be an immature and irresponsible take of someone who doesn't truly understand the weight of what he is handling. I don't think it should be marketed to the kinds of kids who go to Hot Topic. That's pretty much it.

[–] AngryChairr 17 years ago

I'm really amazed that in this day and age people cannot recognize what was intended to be a farce. Maybe I'm having a disconnect here but nothing in this movie was meant to be literal. These weren't meant to be real people in the same way Gregor Samsa transforming into an insect-like creature wasn't meant to be a real-life biography in the Franz Kafka story. The fact that people cannot recognize this film as a dark comedy in the same way the original Texas Chainsaw Massacre was intended, and decide to deride the film as pretentious because they can't find meaning in specific scenes (or the entire movie itself) is absurd.

I'm not intending this as an ad hominem attack but Mujah most of your arguments and assumptions are juvenile in their intepretation of the movie, and of your fellow human beings.

Just because you don't understand a specific scene within the context of the film doesn't mean it holds any less artistic value, or has any less actual meaning. Did I think this was a brilliant film? Not exactly. But does that mean I'm going to call the filmmaker immature because I don't fully grasp what he was attempting? No. You can claim you don't believe the filmmaker understands the weight of the subject but that's a fairly arrogant assumption, placing your own beliefs higher than that of someone else based solely on your own opinion. For a similar assumption, I could presume I know more about medicine than a trained doctor but that doesn't make it so. I'm not saying the filmmaker is an expert on the subject but I'm also not saying he isn't...because we don't know.

As for the issue of marketing. I highly doubt this film will cause anyone who shops at Hot Topic to kill themselves. I also find this assumption somewhat comical given the fact that you're assuming all the kids who buy the clothes at this store are automatically susceptible to something like suicide. Why? Because they wear black? Because they listen to angsty music? What exactly makes them the most susceptible? I mean, why even single out Hot Topic when this movie can also be found at an FYE, Best Buy, or anywhere on the Internet? Because of the way the kids dress?

[–] wnip 17 years ago

Good comparison with Texas Chainsaw Massacre: if a movie can push you to acts, anything can. If those who watch Suicide Club kill themselves because of it, they might have done the same reading a Beaudelaire poem who touched them, or that they interpreted in another way intended because Beaudelaire wasn't paying attention to how his poems could be interpreted. Worst. poet. ever. lol.

Let it be, let it be man. Let nature follow it's course, it's her law: only the strongests survive.

[–] Moishar 17 years ago

I agree with the original post..Mujah.Movies like Requiem for a Dream or even Battle Royale conveys so much more meaning then Suicide Club.In fact,i also bursted out laughing a few times. The whole movie makes me feel like they are just trying to say"Oh..my life sucks..i am not connecting with the world..so i should just go kill myself..yes lets all kill ourselves cause we are connecting" I laughed when the detective blew his head up after he found his family dead because*they were not connecting*.I don't find anything artistic or beautiful about this movie like the reviews said at all.I hated the ending even more when they were trying to let us know this one girl never died..and everything is back to normal.I would'nt say this movie is glamorising suicide..but it actually makes suicide seem like some highschooler's only way to her problem and making it seem cool.Actually i never saw any problems with the highscoolers!they seemed like they wanted to kill themselves because they had nothing else to do.I don't symphathise with any characters in this movie because they are all acting like as if they have no brains .Go watch One flew over the cuckoos nest or Girls interupted instead..

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=5560057

[–] morning_coffee_cub 17 years ago

this movie is immersed in metaphors, symbolism, and puzzles. japan is right-when it comes to the western audiences, you have to spell everything out. mujah, this is where you chime in. for someone who doesn't like this movie, you sure have a lot to say on it. most would not care that much. but you have the free time, so...

[–] Dragon_Eye_Morrison 17 years ago

This movie is bad indeed, people praising it as some complex work full of metaphors and what not are seriously looking for things that are simply not there.

The film fails in everything that is trying to do, the social critique of pop culture, isolation and careless youth is bland and simple minded. So, because people are lonely, kids like to do the craziest things, and all of them happen to listen a crappy pop song, they go and kill themselves? The film is more or less literally saying just that, is failed attempt of doing a sort of commentary about society, and such a heavy issue as suicide. The film is trying to eat more of what it can chew, which is already very little. This topic deserves a much better treatment, and not just a silly farse like this one. Even the black gory comedy aspect is not funny enough, and lacks the proper context, to sustain the film.

Asian cinema knows how to be hard hitting, to mix genres and staying smart at the same time. There you have Save the Green Planet, Oasis, Happiness of the Katakuris and even already well known cult items like Battle Royale, who knew better what it was doing with the material. This movie deserves no fandom at all, no discussion whatsover and to just be trown into the obscurity it deserves. I guess some people will keep poping this as some sort of cult item for the sake of brining something exotic. But seriously people, there are asian flicks far better out there than this.

"I believe the common character of the universe is not harmony, but hostility, chaos and murder."