Would it have killed Weir to put in a female character or two?


Or a minority for that manner?

The ENTIRE film was just a bunch of white men?!?!

reply

The film was based on a series of novels about the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic Wars and (other than the Galapagos which wasn't settled at the time) the action was mostly set at sea. There were very few females allowed aboard British Naval ships during the 19th Century other than the occasional wife of some of the officers (e.g. gunner's wife) and there would be some local professional ladies aboard plying their trade when the ship was in a port. So there would hardly be any scope in the film to include roles for women. This film isn't a fantasy like the POTC franchise and is much more factually based on real life on board naval ships at the time which was mostly male but not always white. There were quite a mixture of peoples from the British Empire who served on naval ships.

reply

Yes, it would.

He has spoken about the issue of female characters; it's in the 'Making Of' book, for example. In the novel series there are a number of occasions in which ships commanded by Jack have women aboard; including, at different times, Jack's and Stephen's own wives. So plot-wise and canon-wise it would have been perfectly possible. But he felt, and I'm sure he was right, that including a female character would skew the whole movie; the story, the tension, would be around her, rather than about the ship's company as an organic entity, which is what Weir was interested in. And in fact, whenever in the books O'Brian does put a woman on board she does skew the plot and it does become about her and the various reactions of the crew members to her. O'Brian wrote over 20 novels in the series so he could afford to have a woman become the centre of attention now and again; Weir was only making one movie, and he couldn't.

As for ethnic minorities; there were plenty. If you didn't see them, you just weren't using your eyes.

reply

There actually was a woman on board in the book, the gunner had brought his pretty wife aboard and she became a bit too interested in Hollom, the grown-up midshipman. In the book, first Hollom was widely regarded as "a Jonah" (bearer of bad luck for the ship), and then when Hollom and Mrs. Gunner didn't come back from shore leave on an island, the gunner was thought of as a probable murderer and a Jonah and suffered the same fate as Hollom did in the film.

The reason the writers changed that was because to adapt a complex book to the screen, they need to reduce the number of minor characters. So instead of having three characters show how the insularity and ignorance of shipboard life could lead to some poor schmuck being labeled a "Jonah" and sacrificed as a scapegoat, they had one. So yeah, the one woman who was on board in the book, was sacrificed to economical writing.


β€œSeventy-seven courses and a regicide, never a wedding like it!

reply

I agree syntinen, it would have skewed the movie which ran over 2 hours as it was.

I would dearly love to see someone make a film of Jack and Stephen ashore - Jack's politics or financial problems, Stephen's espionage, as prisoners of war (in America or France), and of their domestic lives in England. Any of those story lines could involve the female characters from the canon.

reply

Most of the British navy at the time felt that women on board a man of war was bad luck.
To have a woman on board for a voyage of the length and mission of the Surprise would not have been possible.
Given the times depicted in the movie there was no plot device that would have made any sense.
Read the books. This movie was a very close enactment of several of Patrick O'Brien's works.
Women of the time were not the brash and forward type.

The pumps don't work 'cause the Vandals stole the handles
Bob Dylan

reply

Actually there was no such superstition at the time, at all, and women were commonplace aboard RN vessels. (In fishing communities around the coast of Britain there certainly was a widespread superstition that women aboard the fishing boats, or even having anything to do with the fishing boats, would bring bad luck; this superstition lingered well into living memory. But sea fishing, in which women genuinely had no business, was another matter entirely.)

Captains frequently took their wives (and occasionally their mistresses) aboard. The bosun, carpenter and gunner were 'standing warrant officers', i.e. were appointed to the ship and stayed with it whether it was in commission or laid up 'in ordinary', so the ship was their permanent home. They tended to be rather older than most of the crew (deep-water sailing was a young man's trade) and therefore typically married; their families lived on board with them as a matter of course, the ship being their home too. The junior midshipmen lived in the 'gunroom' under the supervision of the gunner, and as a typical gunner would have been a competent middle-aged man with a competent middle-aged wife, it was taken for granted that she would help look after the really young lads.

Other petty officers and Marine NCOs might have their wives aboard with permission from the captain, and many captains (though not, in the books, Jack) gave such permission quite widely. When in 1848 the Naval General Service Medal was retrospectively issued to anyone still Iiving who had served between 1789 and 1840, three women applied for it - and were turned down, not because the issuing board didn't believe they hadn't been aboard or hadn't done real service, but because letting them have it would have left the Navy Board 'exposed to innumerable applications of the same nature'. (Though they were happy to issue the medal to Daniel Tremendous Mackenzie for his 'service' at the Battle of the Glorious First of June - he was born on board HMS Tremendous during the battle.) This state of affairs is clearly shown in O'Brian's books.

Although O'Brian decided to make Jack opposed on principle to carrying too many women aboard, there are still women aboard on many occasions. And if you've ever read The Far Side of the World, one of the novels on which the movie is based, you must be aware that one of the important characters is Mrs Horner, the gunner's wife. Jack gives permission for the gunner to bring his wife on board for the voyage assuming her to be a typical gunner's wife, middle-aged, comfortable and competent to look after the 'squeakers' of the midship men's berth, and is aghast to find out too late that on the contrary she is young and seductive - and goes on to have a disastrous affair with Mr Midshipman Hollom. How could you possibly have read TFSotW and not noticed any of that plot line?


Women of the time were not the brash and forward type
.

Good grief. Apart from the complete non sequitur, the books (and real Regency life in general, on shore and afloat) were full of brash and forward women.

reply

Fascinating reply, as ever. Thankyou for the detail, even though I wasn't the one who asked for it.

reply

Jesus christ just the *beep* up

reply

Your request needs a recognizable verb, much like you need some recognizable intelligence.

The pumps don't work 'cause the Vandals stole the handles
Bob Dylan

reply

Yea? The fact that you feel the need to try and patronize someone on an internet forum makes you even more of an *beep*

And whoever made this post needs to read a god damn history book before crying like the liberal pussy they are.

Having said all that, this thread is probably a troll anyway so I guess I'll go *beep* myself

reply

I guess we got off on the wrong foot. I apologize for being a bit cranky. I have to agree with you about the OP and doing some reading.
I happen to enjoy this period of history, especially naval life and action.
When I was watching this movie the first time I realized it was going to be a reasonable depiction when I saw the hammocks swaying in the gloom below decks.
Speaking of reading, who are your favorite fiction authors of Napoleonic naval action?

The pumps don't work 'cause the Vandals stole the handles
Bob Dylan

reply

This is a ship of the line, not a floating bordello!

reply

Point taken. But you probably mean man of war, the Surprise wasn't a ship of the line.

reply

Sorry, I misquoted the film! The line was, 'This is a ship of His Majesty's Navy, not a floating bordello!'

reply

If you want to watch a film with nothing but white dudes in it, this your movie

reply

Actually there are black men in it as well.

reply

The crew certainly had black men.

The officers, as was true to the time, where white men.

Still, this is one of my wife's favorite films.

reply

And if you want to watch a movie with nothing but black dudes in it, watch Amistad.

reply


A bunch of white men are pretty much exactly what would have been on a British Warship in 1805. Would you sacrifice authenticity for diversity? A good director would not do that. Diversity is not in of itself a good thing. It just is.

If you want diversity, check out a film set in the 21st century.

😎

reply

FYI the book the movie was based on had a female character on board the ship, but as I said above, she was a minor character and she was cut to simplify the plot a bit.

I agree with the director's reasons for cutting that specific woman out of the story, and I'd like to add that since she had no real relationship with the major characters her presence would have been raised false expectations about where the plot would go (everyone expects the male star to get the only girl, and nothing like that happened, or should). If there had been a sequel, or if there's ever a reboot, then sure, there's plenty of source material that includes women on board Captain Aubrey's naval ships. But this particular story didn't need one.

reply


Yes I know, and I agree.

😎

reply

Ha, this post didn't age too well (and it's only 2 years old ...)

reply

Not to mention, it's wrong. British naval ships of that era would have had moderately diverse crews... but white officers.

So the ships sailed all over the world, to British Empire ports or wherever they stopped, and ships were constantly being re-staffed in England, India, South Africa, Valpariaiso (Chile), Indonesia, and they'd take on any crewman who could be enticed or ordered on board. So in the books there are constant mentions of crew members who are African, or Turkish, or Malaysian, or Finnish, whatever, as would be logical to accept on a ship that slowly sails over the entire world. But the officers would have been white Britons, no exceptions, and above a certain rank they were all Protestant. Regulations forbade Catholics from being promoted to high ranks, and bigotry kept out anyone Jewish or of another religion.

reply

No it wasn't.
Watch the movie before you comment.

reply