MovieChat Forums > Bowling for Columbine (2002) Discussion > Gun free zone once again prevents a horr...

Gun free zone once again prevents a horrific mass murder from....

posted 8 years ago by herbsuperb
16 replies | jump to latest

.....OH WAIT...NO IT DIDN'T. SHOCK-A-****ING-ROO!!!!!!!!!!!!

If somebody in that club had been carrying a gun, and knew well how to do it, imagine the dozens of lives that might have been saved. But nobody did. They were sheep to be slaughtered by a hateful, mindless piece of human garbage. Why did they have no armed security? Why did they declare it a 'gun free' zone if they weren't going to rigorously enforce it? Did they really expect that having a cute little sign that says 'gun free zone' would prevent a murderous lunatic from doing what murderous lunatics do? NO. They should have had an armed security guard on the premises trained to deal with situations like this. OR, allowed the other patrons to carry guns to do the same. Would have provided a strong deterrent factor, which may have prevented the shooting from ever happening to begin with. Or, if it did happen, it may have been mitigated due to an armed patron neutralizing the shooter. But no. They were defenseless, and because our government refuses to address the REAL problems in America, this ***wipe killed 50 innocent people, and shattered thousands of lives. Atop that, his actions will encourage other bigoted, hateful pieces of garbage, to do the same thing.

This will never ****ing end until liberal America wakes up and sees the world for what it is, rather than what they'd like it to be. You really think we won't see this same kind of **** under a Clinton/Sanders presidency?

Anybody who tries to frame this disaster within the context of advancing 'gun control' is living in the ****ing sky. The answer to this kind of savage barbarism can only come from American muslims themselves. THEY need to stand up, en masse, and without reservation condemn this heinous bull****. They need to stand in solidarity with the LGBT community, which has been devastated, and proclaim in a LOUD and PUBLIC voice that ANYBODY who supports, or advocates these kinds of actions will NOT be accepted by the muslim community of the United States. They need to actively root out this hateful ideology that so many of their young men and women embrace, and stamp it out of existence. Our political leaders need to hound the Muslim leaders of America to advance that cause. Until they do, and until Muslims stand up and put an end to this hateful bigotry that their faith (or at least their adherents) teaches, Muslims will NEVER be accepted as a full-fledged part of the fabric of America. This CANNOT happen. Until Islam changes its hateful ways, they will never be trusted, and will never be embraced by Americans at large. Forever in the fringe of American culture will they remain.

This disgusting piece of mongrel **** that committed this barbarous crime should have had 15 seconds at the VERY most before somebody decent started to shoot back at him. But because of ****y liberals who are afraid of guns and don't understand their true purpose and their deterrent power, he had all the ****ing time in the world to murder innocent people through the hateful bigotry that Islam teaches to so many of its adherents. This must end. Gun control will NOT do that. America does not have a gun problem. America has a culture problem (many of them actually) that is exacerbated by the presence of gun rights. Taking away gun rights, won't solve the other problem, which is far more serious. Fixing the culture, will render the gun problem moot. ****ING FIGURE THIS OUT LIBERAL AMERICA!!!!!!!

[–] vispateresa 8 years ago

Why is anyone allowed to possess so many guns for no apparent reason? In Italy, you simply can't have that amount of weapons. It's as simple as that.

You can have on or two guns if you go hunting, one handgun for your security, and that's all. No more.

Luckily we don't have such crazy laws here.

[–] burrell_dale 8 years ago

Good for YOU! You run YOUR country...and we'll run OURS!

[–] morris45 8 years ago

Good for YOU! You run YOUR country...and we'll run OURS!

Funny, that's probably the same thing other countries say to us, yet we continue to invade and bomb those countries. And then we're crying like little girls and ask why 9/11 happened. You are not very bright, huh?

[–] hellblazer-1 8 years ago

I am genuinely curious.

Let's say you are carrying a gun (for self-defense)

Others are carrying guns (for self-defense)

You are slightly drunk, in a dark room filled with other people, with flashing lights, loud music, completely unprepared for the unexpected. Someone starts shooting. Others start shooting. You pull out your gun... who do you shoot?

You can't say the one with the darker skin.

What if... you're in line in a shop.

A person walks in carrying an assault rifle. Do you shoot?

... or do you assume that person is an NRA member protesting the state's new gun law?

[–] herbsuperb 8 years ago

You are slightly drunk, in a dark room filled with other people, with flashing lights, loud music, completely unprepared for the unexpected.

So don't get drunk. Always keep your faculties. If you plan to be out of your mind, don't carry your gun. Use your head. Be responsible, and be prepared to take responsiblity for your own actions if you choose to carry a gun. These are all reasonable expectations of anybody in a free society.

By the by, I never said that ALL of the PATRONS should be armed. But they should have had a weapon (or weapons) on the premises, hidden away, but easily accessible, with staff that knew how and when to use it. Might have ended this insanity very quickly, and saved dozens of innocent lives. But no. They were defenseless lambs to the slaughter because they respected the venue as a 'gun-free zone'. Look what happened. A murderous criminal DIDN'T respect that. What a shocker!!

You can't say the one with the darker skin.

Barring any other description, no I wouldn't say that.

A person walks in carrying an assault rifle. Do you shoot?

If that's all he did, then no. I wouldn't. Is this fellow brandishing his weapon in an aggressive or threatening manner? Has he discharged the weapon? There are many things that would effect my decision.

... or do you assume that person is an NRA member protesting the state's new gun law?

Not sure I'd assume that. But I wouldn't (and couldn't, in a moral sense) assume that he is a murderer, or erstwhile assailant.

[–] hellblazer-1 8 years ago

Actually you make some good points but I still believe you are making a rational argument out of an irrational situation.

For any business to advertise as a 'gun free zone' may now smack of naive optimism but (as you've hinted at), a line has to be drawn.

Nobody going to a club or to a cinema or to school should be armed, however to have a few responsible individuals (bar managers, guards, ushers) with access to a firearm isn't objectionable.

But my issue with those who openly carried their assault rifles in protest stands and for the NRA to prevent sensible restrictions smacks more of corruption rather than second amendment protection.

I'm sure you're in that vast majority of gun owners who are responsible... just like the vast majority of Muslims who are peaceful, but you too have a tiny minority who are murdering innocent people and making YOU look bad.

Right now, it's as if you are desperate for an NRA hero - someone who carried a gun, who happened upon a mass shooting and took out the killer like a badass. But that isn't real. It's an idealized narrative based on too many movies. Of all the mass shootings, when has this been at least a possibility?

[–] herbsuperb 8 years ago

I'm sure you're in that vast majority of gun owners who are responsible... just like the vast majority of Muslims who are peaceful, but you too have a tiny minority who are murdering innocent people and making YOU look bad.

Truth be told, I don't own a gun. I've never felt it necessary, though I've probably taken some chances that I shouldn't have. Been lucky so far. But I don't begrudge effective protection to those that would rather have their safety in their own hands, than depend on luck.

I have spent time around NRA types. Folks that some misguided individuals might describe as 'gun nuts'. I feel safer around them than most people. They are good-hearted, conscientious, patriotic, family-oriented, moral people in virtually all cases I've known. They preach the virtues and necessity of gun safety and personal responsibility more stringently than anybody else does, especially to young people. It's heartening. Quite simply, they feel better, safer, and more confident holding their own security in their own hands, then being utterly dependent on strangers to do it for them. That's a wonderful thing. I can't abide government, or anybody else trying to tell these great folks how to live. They don't deserve to be treated as if they're doing something wrong whenever some nutcase kills a bunch of people out of hatred, and hostility that they don't share in the slightest.

I very much agree with you perfectly valid comparison to Muslims and terrorism. I'd be VERY comfortable saying that the number of NRA 'gun nut' types that think all Muslims are terrorists, is extremely low. They're (for the most part) far too smart to go in for such hogwash.

Right now, it's as if you are desperate for an NRA hero - someone who carried a gun, who happened upon a mass shooting and took out the killer like a badass. But that isn't real. It's an idealized narrative based on too many movies. Of all the mass shootings, when has this been at least a possibility?

It's not much of one, because there is so much resistance to ANYBODY carrying weapons around soft targets. That's why would-be killers target such locations. They know the chances of return fire are very low. That needs to change.

The guns aren't going away. There are hundreds of millions of them out there. The knowledge of how to manufacture them is out of the bag. The US is too big, and has too many rural areas to expect people to do much of anything without the right to personal protection. Any attempt to suppress or revoke the second amendment will result in revolution and civil war. It's not going to happen. We have to accept the fact that we have a lot of guns around, and a lot of people who fully embrace America's gun history, and gun culture, mostly for the better. Only rarely for the worse. Crack down on criminals, don't coddle them. Teach kids how to be comfortable and safe around guns, rather than scared and misguided about them. Encourage constant vigilance and encourage people in positions of authority to be armed, and trained to respond to mass shootings. Do all that, and these mass murders will become less and less successful.

There are no easy answers to this problem. But banning guns, and removing them from American society are simply not plausible, and certainly not desirable. People can live in peace with lots of guns around. See Switzerland for example. Or Kennesaw, GA where folks are required to keep guns. Crime and violence are FAR lower than is typical in those places, and they fully embrace gun culture. They simply have better people, and THAT is where our efforts must be focused. Demonizing the guns themselves, while placating the killers who abuse them, is the most backwards way possible to address these issues, and sadly that's the course liberals typically choose.

[–] hellblazer-1 8 years ago

Herbsuperb.

Thank you for such a heartening conversation. We began with such a tone of negativity and we ended, through civilized and mature discussion, on common ground and respect. If only all internet message boards are populated as such rather than thin-skinned anonymous extremists.

My only message to you is that I am now so tired of the conservative/liberal labelling. It's lazy and counter-intuiative and immediately weakens your argument (it has now become meaningless name-calling). We are a world of nearly seven billion people and to put us in TWO distinct camps is beyond absurd. But what we ALL are, is idealist.

Best wishes for the future.

[–] herbsuperb 8 years ago

My only message to you is that I am now so tired of the conservative/liberal labelling. It's lazy and counter-intuiative and immediately weakens your argument (it has now become meaningless name-calling). We are a world of nearly seven billion people and to put us in TWO distinct camps is beyond absurd. But what we ALL are, is idealist.

Indeed. I quite agree. My vitriol is always intended to target the extreme elements of either side, though I don't always clarify that. Seems every year though that fewer and fewer people adopt a moderate, open-minded, centrist philosophy, and instead pick one camp and refuse to budge an inch no matter how wrong their side may be on a particular issue. Not everybody of course. There are still some independents out there. But the socio-political dynamic in this country is really in bad shape, and polarized to a very dangerous degree, and it makes me fear the future more so now than ever before. It's 1860 again, but we have no Abraham Lincoln.

Best wishes for the future.

To you as well. Thanks.

[–] burrell_dale 8 years ago

I concluded a long time ago that you are NEVER going to convince the hard-core anti-gun fanatics! These clods are blind and deaf to the truth...because they have their heads up their rectums!

[–] burrell_dale 8 years ago

But what we ALL are, is idealist.

SPEAK FOR YOURSELF! I HAPPEN TO BE A REALIST, MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE!!!

...THE PROBLEM IS THAT TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE IDEALISTS!!! I HAVE BAD NEWS FOR YOU- THIS HAS NEVER BEEN AN IDEAL WORLD, BUT IT'S THE ONLY WORLD WE HAVE, AND WE HAVE TO SEE THE WORLD THE WAY IT IS, AND MAKE THE BEST OF IT- ANYTHING ELSE IS INSANITY!

AND WE HAVE NEVER HAD PERFECT PEOPLE (EXCEPT FOR JESUS CHRIST), YET THE GOOD, RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS VASTLY OUTNUMBERED THE TROUBLEMAKERS- AND I'VE NOTICED THAT THE TROUBLEMAKERS GET ALMOST ALL OF THE PUBLICITY, WHILE THE GOOD, RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE VERY SELDOM GET CREDIT FOR ANYTHING!!!

[–] burrell_dale 8 years ago

Right now, it's as if you are desperate for an NRA hero - someone who carried a gun, who happened upon a mass shooting and took out the killer like a badass. But that isn't real. It's an idealized narrative based on too many movies. Of all the mass shootings, when has this been at least a possibility?

Cheer up- I have GOOD NEWS for you: even if something like that DID happen, the mainstream news media would either suppress it, or down-play it! The news media in this country is biased and unfair, and you'll see Hell freeze over before the media is ever going to give gun owners credit for ANYTHING!

By the way- remember what the media did to Bernard Goetz? Remember a guy named Richard Jewel? Remember what the media did to George Zimmerman?

In the NRA's official magazine, they always seem to fill a whole page with actual instances where armed citizens were able to defend themselves- and, often, other people from harm. In a lot of cases, just the mere PRESENCE of a firearm in the hands of a private citizen was enough to prevent a crime- with no shots fired! IT HAPPENS EVERY DAY- YOU JUST NEVER HEAR ABOUT IT!

...but then, I don't expect you to believe a dam thing that the NRA says, ANYWAY!

[–] burrell_dale 8 years ago

... or do you assume that person is an NRA member protesting the state's new gun law?

YOU DIRTY SOB!!! YOU INSULTED THE NRA MEMBERS OF THIS COUNTRY!!!

...I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF ANY NRA MEMBERS ACTING LIKE THAT- THESE CRIMES ARE NOT BEING COMMITTED BY NRA MEMBERS, AND IF THEY EVER WERE, YOU CAN BET YOUR BOTTOM DOLLAR THAT THE NEWS MEDIA WOULD MAKE DARN SURE EVERYBODY KNEW ABOUT IT!!!

I CANT SPEAK FOR THE 3 MILLION PLUS NRA MEMBERS IN THIS COUNTRY, BUT I WOULD LOVE TO PUT MY FOOT UP YOUR REAR END FOR THAT INSULT...AND I WEAR A SIZE 13!!!

[–] moviechatterer (13284) 6 months ago

way to totally misunderstand the post.

[–] burrell_dale 8 years ago

Face it- SOME people are NEVER going to learn!

"Against STUPIDITY the Gods THEMSELVES contend in VAIN!"

[–] samoanjoes (50956) a month ago

And yet the person who went into that club went in with a gun instead of a knife. It works both ways.