very disappointed


I am a diehard They Might Be Giants fan, since 1986, and I was very dissapointed with this film. Where are the songs? The 2 Johns are great because of their body of work, not because someone from NPR says so. Everytime the band starts a song it cuts to some one talking. The film should have showed more respect for the songs and presented more of them complete, like in Jim Jarmusch's Crazy Horse documentry "Year Of The Horse". My biggest complaint is who is Sarah Vowell? and why is she all over this film? Her annoying "I'm so hip I have to talk with a funny voice" routine makes repeated veiwings of this film impossible for me. I was so looking forward to the DVD. I had to go to 3 different places to find it. It cost nearly $30 with the sales tax. I knew there were going to be interviews in the film but I thought it was going to include a live performance too. There are only 2 songs presented without interruption in the film. The extra features and the end credits of the film are the highlights of the DVD, the feature itself is weak.
A.J. Schnack should have included only interviews with the Johns and people relevent to their career, and let the songs play without interruption.


"put the pick in there Pete, then turn it around real neat"

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Did you look at the special features? There's plenty of concert footage and music videos, in addition to more interviews. The film is a documentary, not a concert film, so that is why there are not many performances in the film itself. As for Sarah Vowell, she is a very respected author and NPR regular, and most likely good friends with the band (and also Conan O'Brien). She is also voicing a character in the Incredibles.

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Did you read my post? I clearly say the special features and the end credits of the feature are the highlights of the Dvd. I think they added all the extras because of the lack of complete songs in the feature. Sarah Vowell is annoying, and makes repeat viewings of the feature impossible for me. But the Extras are great.

"I think we're all BOZO's on this bus"

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I've never heard of someone "so hip" that they "talk with a funny voice" and, anyway, how could you not have heard of Sarah Vowell?

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I still have no idea who Sarah Vowell is and what her relationship to TMBG is.
Someone posted she's a well respected author, but failed to mention anything she has written. And now you say how could I not have heard of her but fail to give any reasons or examples why.

"They're man made. Little damn things. Smaller than my fist. But they're new."

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Having not seen the movie, I have little credible to add here. I really like TMBG, and having only remembered now that this movie exists, plan to order a copy.

However; I did want to say 'yay' to JingleDell for both his Firesign Theatre and Eraserhead quotes.

"They're coming to get you, Barbara." - Johnny, Night Of The Living Dead

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The DVD is well worth getting for the great extra features, where the music of TMBG's is well represented. My complaint about the feature "Gigantic" is this: Everytime the band starts playing it's interupted by someone talking. I think they should have been more respectful to the songs and not talked over them. I think they should have talked in between the songs. Repeated viewings of "Gigantic" would more enjoyable if it contained uninterupted performances.

"They're man made. Little damn things. Smaller than my fist. But they're new."

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Sarah Vowell wrote one of the articles inside the book that comes with "Dial-a-song", the 20th anniversary collection of TMBG. She is also a close friend and fan of the Johns. That is how she is relevent to the movie and the band. The movie is a documentary about the bands history, not a showcase of their songs in full. If you want that get "Direct from Brooklyn" or see them live.

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How can you document a band's history without showcasing the music the band makes?

"They're man made. Little damn things. Smaller than my fist. But they're new."

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Well, I'm kinda in your boat. I'm a fan, but I haven't been able to find it. Well, I have to order it, but I'm waiting for some coupons to become valid. Anyway, As a younger fan who hasn't lived through most of their history, I think that I would enjoy this movie. I have their CD's inculding Severe Tire Damage, which has live preformances, so if I want that, it's right on hand. I've also seen them in concert, which I think is better than video of live preformances. What I'm getting at is that seeing/hearing them live isn't that hard. Or maybe I'm eird. I like documentaries, even if there isn't concert footage because I like to learn quirky trivia.

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she wrote the partly cloudy patriot, i read and enjoyed it, she is really funny and it made me happy when i saw her in the film. i also think that it was very well made.

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Seeing her isn't the problem. The problem is having to listening to affected speech pattern.

"They're man made. Little damn things. Smaller than my fist. But they're new."

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That isn't an affected speech pattern, that's her voice.

As to who she is, she's written several collections of essays (The Partly Cloudy Patriot and Take the Canoli are two of them) and she's a frequent contributor to This American Life on Public Radio International.

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It sounds affected to me. If it isn't it still very annoying. And so how do you know it's her real voice?

"They're man made. Little damn things. Smaller than my fist. But they're new."

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An interesting problem... I think that JingleDell is wrong, in saying that the documentary doesn't include full songs. The movie would be, basically, unwatchable, trust me. It'd be twice as long. Cutting out everyone but the Johns talking? I am agreeing with the other poster that it sounds like JingleDell is really looking for a Concert film. A few minutes of the band talking backstage to black and white footage, followed by a full song, maybe another cut after that of the band talking outside the venue... that's a concert film. But this is a documentary, and an excellent one at that. I think it captures the spirit of the band perfectly, and I've been listening to them since the beginning. (20 year fan, yo!)

On the other hand, I completely agree that Sarah Vowell drives me up the wall. Setting aside her voice (which is just part of the package of any radio personality, which many of these interviewees are), her dismissive attitude about the 60's (yeah, real nice to dismiss an entire generation) and general elitism mar an otherwise perfect production. I do not fault AJ for this, her quotes are bite-y and slip in perfectly.... I just hate how she comes across. A real downer. Of course, not everyone at a performance is a joy to be near, so that's what the "skip ahead" feature of my DVD is for!

Good movie. Good times. Not a concert film.

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I think you hit the nail on head with the word "elitism", not only does she talk with a funny voice, but she talks down to the audience. I really do feel I was misled by the promotion for the film. I remember seeing a web page for the film that included a picture of people lined up for what the caption said was "the Gigantic Concert". If you want to see a documentry that does it right check out Jim Jarmusch's Year Of The Horse".

"They're man made. Little damn things. Smaller than my fist. But they're new."

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So, JingleDell, a year later, have you changed your opinions of the film?
I fail to understand how you seem to have this vendetta against Sarah Vowell. She, through including Dial-a-Song on a segment of "This American Life" exposed TMBG to hundreds of thousands of potential fans, including the director of Gigantic.
I still think that this is a fabulous film, not a document of a concert, not a collection of videos or live outtakes, a film.
As to being misled by the promotions for the film, well, Duh?.
Show me a good campaign and trailer, and I will probably show you Sideways or In The Bedroom, not many others.

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No I have not changed my opinion. The end credits are great. The DVD extra features are wonderful. But the mostly shot on video feature is interesting for one viewing. In my opinion the film would have been better if a few complete songs were added between all the talk. The day the DVD came out I had to go 4 or 5 stores to find it, and I had pay almost $30 for it. If it was easy to find and $15 I don't think I would have been so disapointed. It took a real effort to find.
and
Why does Sarah Vowell have to use that funny voice? It's annoying to me.
Why doesn't the film explain who she is and what her relationship to the group is? Her "I'm hipper than the audience" attitude (which is my opinion) rubs me the wrong way. She seems to be talking down to the viewer.





"They're man made. Little damn things. Smaller than my fist. But they're new."

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Look, if you want to hear or see them live, go see 'em in concert or listen to a live CD. Obviously, you've missed the point of the whole film...
Die-hard fan - sheesh, you'd think you'd understand then...

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I agree. For a die-hard fan, it doesn't really sound like Jingle's ever been to aconcert. I've only been listening to TMBG for 3 years now and I've come to appreciate their whole career. Jingle, the documentary is a documentary on the band, the Johns, and how they came to be themselves. If you want a John-only area with complete songs, pay 25 bucks to see a concert. Or download one for 10 bucks off their website. But I like the live atmosphere more.

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Why does Sarah Vowell have to use that funny voice? It's annoying to me.

It's her real voice. I happen to find it sexy.

"In my opinion, everyone should get naked." - Ben Moody

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And she was cast in a major Hollywood motion picture in a lead role (The Incredibles) on the strength of her voice.

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What is the name of the song that they were playing when the credits were rolling. It was a TMBG modified version of "The Lion Sleeps Tonight", but I can't seem to find the name anywhere.

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The Guitar from the Apollo 18 album.

The car crash is a fertilizing rather than a destructive event.

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Someone posted she's a well respected author, but failed to mention anything she has written.

I wouldn't go so far as to say she's a "respected author."

She's a popular commentator on the NPR radio show "This American Life," in which smart people speak with a ironic tone of voice and often make fun of people less intelligent than they are. It's often these educated urban elite types going into the Mid-West to make fun of some local legend, or going home to make fun of their Middle American families.

She then parleyed her success on that show (partly due to the sheer oddity of her whiny girl voice) into a writing gig, though her books are just not as edgy as her spoken commentary on TAL, for obvious reasons. I find her writing to be strained and annoying.

Additionally, she used it to get her foot in the door for girl voices in animation, most notably as the teenaged daughter in The Incredibles.

She can be funny or annoying, depending on the mood I'm in, whereas I always find Ira Glass, the host on TAL, to me smug, irritating, and self-absorbed.

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Larry-155,
I love "This Ameican Life" and everything public radio stands for, so your post initially made me angry. That is until I realized you're right. I left my small Indiana town to get a graduate degree from a big east coast city university, and my favorite TAL stories are mostly just as you described... Ira, Sarah, or some other intellectual will tell a story about small town capers, then we can all laugh and make ourselves feel better about the ridiculous big city rent we pay.

That said, I think the filmmakers, on the whole, picked the correct audience. Most younger TMBG fans are awkward, geeky middle and high school students, and most older TMBG fans are well educated NPR types who used to be awkward geeky middle and high school students. Congratulations Larry and Jingle if you were all-city quarterbacks for your high schools, you are then rare exceptions to the average TMBG fan.

I saw the film's Philadelphia premire, which included a Q&A with the Johns after the film. You could tell that everyone who went to see the film that night was a fan of such geeky delights as Cristopher Guest films, NPR/This American Life, and Dave Eggars. The film, like the band, has a somewhat particular audience and as such, the film caters to that audience.

I liked the film's format. It was more of a PBS, Ken Burns-ish talking head documentary of the history of the band. This is a different style than recent "day in the life of" type docs on Wilco and Metallica. Perhaps TMBG will release an actual concert DVD in the future, but I think that would be pointless. Unlike arena bands like U2, TMBG will never have a definitive, must-see performance that warrents wide release (except maybe their Flood anniversary concert in NYC). Their catalog is too large to include enough tunes in one show to please everyone.

Just go to a show for $20 and rock out, every show is different. I saw them at Chicago Festival Pier and the whole show was Apollo 18, Factory Showroom, and their then not-yet-released No! album. I also saw them at a tiny venue in Cleveland, and the show was entirely earlier tunes from albums up though Apollo 18.

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PLEASE don't dismiss This American Life or Sarah Vowell because of a perceived irony or whine without hearing Sarah's moving stories on the TAL show about spending a day out with her Dad and shooting off his cannon or making the Trail of Tears tour with her sister to discover familial roots. Neither of those are typical urban elitist activities, are they?

I'll always be grateful to Ira Glass and his show for introducing me to Sarah Vowell and others, like David Sedaris. Their points of view are DIFFERENT from mine and I, for one, like to listen. What's that old quote? A mind, stretched to a new idea, never goes back to its original dimensions.


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so you have come to the Tale of Two Johns message board to find out about Sarah Vowel and what she's written - since you are already on a comp, wouldn't google be easier?

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Sarah Vowell has an identical twin sister whose voice is EXACTLY THE SAME as hers. Why would anyone choose to talk that way?

It has gotten her work though...she was the daugher in The Incredibles!

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Every time I saw her in the movie I wanted to give her a hug. She's adorable.

She said something once (I think on Conan O'Brien) about fame, which struck me as true. When you become famous (even to the limited extent she has) you suddenly discover that there are people out there who find you very attractive, even if your experience in life has been one of feeling undesirable. By virtue of being exposed to thousands of people suddenly people pop out of the woodwork talking about how sexy you are, even if you felt like a loser in high school and couldn't get dates. And it's not necessarily because you're famous, it can be because your attributes are not very popular (not blonde with big boobs, or what have you) and the people who truly find you amazing are few and far between. But they are out there. A message of hope for us nerds.

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This was a movie about the band.

I have to say that I don't feel it was ENOUGH about the band. This is going on my initial viewing of the film nearly a year and a half ago, but I seem to recall a lot of celebs reading lyrics, some concert/TV footage and Sarah Vowell's annoying voice. I would have liked to see more "day in the life" style footage - even if it was staged. Maybe some studio footage of them laying down a now-popular tune, or sound tests before a gig... or hell, talk about their songs and what could have possibly inspired them.

I know they're big on being cryptic about the meanings of their songs, but I think they need to indulge the masses just a bit.

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The thing is though, a lot of their songs DON'T have deep meanings. They have stated numerous times (Linnell has anyway) that most of their lyrics are simply words that simply popped into their heads that happened to fit the melodies. Then the fans dissect every small piece of a song in search of its "True meaning". This is documented perfectly in the film when the high school debate team is arguing over the meaning of "Particle Man". It gets a little ridiculous.
Then there are songs that DO have specific meanings, or are trying to tell a story. These, however, are fairly easy to interpret and don't warrant much further discussion.
As far as "studio footage/sound test" footage, there was plenty of that. We got to hear Flansburgh present/perform TWO demos of future songs ("Man It's So Loud In Here" and "I Can't Hide From My Mind") and some footage of them practicing Dr. Worm. I think that's more than enough "behind the scenes footage". Especially if you include the bonus footage on the DVD.
This really isn't a movie about "the band". It's more of a story of the fans, and what the music means to them, and all of their experiences over the year. It's a tribute to the two Johns, and in that sense, I think the film is a success. With the celeb recitations and Polk interlude Schnack tried to make this different from the average 'rockumentary', and he succeeded in that, too.
Whether you enjoy it or not is another question. I can watch this movie over and over, personally. There's moments and details that just kill me everytime, especially on the commentary track. As a "gigantic" fan of the band, I find it hard to believe a better film about TMBG could be made.
Hopefully a real "concert film" will be made, but don't try to make this great film something its not.

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You hit the nail right on the head, Accordionman: "This really isn't a movie about "the band". It's more of a story of the fans, and what the music means to them..."

That's the whole problem with the movie. I know the fans, I am one. I don't really know the band. These guys are enigmatic. I've said hello to them, they've signed my cd's, they have patter between songs when they perform. But their personalities and worldview are still elusive. It's been a long time since I've seen the documentary, but I remember being really disappointed. It was so tedious to watch. I wanted more soul-revealing interviews. I wanted to know if there were times when John and John hated each other, couldn't stand to look at each other, let alone work in a studio together. Surely there must have been tense times. Maybe family crises that impacted their music.

One of my music professors in college was obsessed with learning the personal histories of composers. I thought it was all hooey at first, but I grew to understand that personal histories have a huge impact on an artist's output. Tchaikovsky was secretly gay, and his inner turmoil shows through in his music. Schubert was incredibly social, and was constantly writing songs to play at all the parties he went to. He wrote more for his friends than the masses. That's why he's got such a huge catalogue, even though he died so young (from an STD, yes he partied). I'm not saying I want the dirt on TMBG, I just want insight and understanding. This film just had a bunch of talking heads.

The reason why I bring this up now and I'm posting so long after "Gigantic" was released is because I think A J Schnack has found the wrong target for his most recent project as well. I haven't seen "About a Son", the new documentary about Kurt Kobain, but based on reviews and my previous experience with A J Schnack I don't think I will go see it. Apparently there is not a single Nirvana song in the soundtrack. According to reviews he focuses too much on information we already have about Kurt Kobain's life and times, and doesn't reveal anything new. If you can't bring something new to the table, A J, don't do it. You can't just say "I feel like making a documentary about Kurt Kobain". You have to have a reason, some new evidence, some different perspective. I've argued long and hard with many film fans about this issue, and I really think it's essential to any documentary that a point of view be revealed. If there's no point of view, it's just the news.

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As a TMBG fan, a college teacher in Media, and a small-time WAY below the radar documentary maker--I tend to agree. It's ultimately a cute film, but the DVD is made better by the features on it. There's no sense of construction, narrative, or anything of that nature. It feels like the TMBG interviews are cut off just as they're getting to their most personal, and interesting stories.

I'm glad I have it, but I've watched the features on the documentary more so than the film itse.f

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I'd rather hear interviews rather than a DVD full of songs. That's why people buy albums, right?

The map sez we're f--ked!

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Sounds like JingleDell needs to make a documentary about TMBG suited to the needs of JingleDell. Gigantic's an overview of their career with commentary by the band and the people inspired by the band. I enjoyed the stuff with Frank Black and Syd Straw tremendously. I'm not a big Ira Glass fan, but I haven't got a problem with Sarah Vowell or her speaking voice.

It's not a Jarmusch film, that's an unfair comparison. Even if you don't like Vowell, all you have to do is fastforward through her contributions. You're like the weeping girl at the instore, only without the joy. If you want to hear the songs uninterrupted, listen to the CDs while someone holds your hand.

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I'd just like to point out that JingleDell is not alone. I'm a long time fan and this thing was disappointing as all hell. As someone else (sorry, feeling a bit lazy :S) pointed out--there's nothing about the band in this movie. It's all about fans. Some are fun, some are creepy, some are irritating as all hell (Someone wants to hug Sarah Vowell when they see her, I want to hit her--not, yknow, actually, but it's a very visceral revulsion that makes me want her to go away and stay there). But so what? I thought this was "A Tale of Two Johns"
I heard no tale. I saw some Johns.

I really don't care why so-and-so likes They Might Be Giants. Even if I like so-and-so. The movie was a waste because it had nothing to do with the band but claimed it did. It's not even close to being "A Tale of Two Johns" because there IS NO TALE TOLD.

So, hey, enjoy it, but I think that, at least insofar as the intrinsic content of the film, there are some VERY legitimate gripes, regardless of whether you find Sarah Vowell amazing or unbelievably irritating (this movie actually prevented me ever listening to or reading anything she has done, so great was my annoyance with her elitist condescension, disconnection with the people around her and grating speech pattern). Even if we put opinions about songs being present or not, people interviewed, etc aside--this still isn't the film it purports to be in its very title, and whether you enjoy it or not, that's pretty much a fact.

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At what point does a documentary maker give up on a project? A recurring theme is reported amongst the fans of TMBG; namely the enigmatic nature of the Johns. Is it possible that the film-maker intended something else, but the Johns left him hanging by not actually revealing anything previously unknown about themselves and the band, thereby creating some massive gaps to fill, in order to make a watchable piece? Just a thought...

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