MovieChat Forums > All the Real Girls (2003) Discussion > Chicks, man... I tell ya...

Chicks, man... I tell ya...

posted 17 years ago by Bladerunner
19 replies | jump to latest

Here's this guy, I mean he is doing his damnedest to try to change, to be a decent person, and he waits to have sex with her, he holds *her* back so he won't be guilty of stealing something, to honor her and she THROWS IT AWAY!!!

Women, girls, whatever age you are... hear THIS, the absolute, very, very, very worst possible, most horrific, terrible, cruel, vicious, hateful, sad, life-killing, painful, heart-wrenching, devastating, depressing, soul-crushing thing you can possibly do, is to give your virginity to someone else when you're dating us.

All except for scumbag dirtballs, all men respect a woman's virginity. Tell a guy (over the age of 21) that you are a virgin when you are about to have casual sex with him, and watch 99% of them go running for the door. Well, maybe 90%, but any *decent* guy will go, WHOA, wait a minute here.

Losing your virginity *before* you meet a guy, no problem. Actually a lot of guys would prefer that you do that, because taking it makes you feel guilty, even if you love her and you respect her, it still feels like you're robbing her childhood, her innocence.

But, for a girl to give her virginity to someone else, while she's dating you... you might as well vomit right in his face, actually that would be much better. If you want to break up with a guy, that would damn sure be a way to do it.

It's not about sex, it's about being cavalier with a special thing. I don't want to live in a world where a woman's virginity isn't a sacred-type thing. Sure, it's gonna happen sometime, but don't treat it like it's something you've gotta get rid of, which is the way I see a lot of movies treat it (not this one) - and damn sure don't let some pimply kid you just met take it in the backseat of a Ford Fiesta, ya know? That's all I'm sayin'.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

[–] droppedelbow 17 years ago

Dear Bladerunner,

I know you're a fan of the sweeping statement, but even you must have been overdosing on the hyperbole pills to come up with "THIS, the absolute, very, very, very worst possible, most horrific, terrible, cruel, vicious, hateful, sad, life-killing, painful, heart-wrenching, devastating, depressing, soul-crushing thing you can possibly do, is to give your virginity to someone else when you're dating us." OK, the events you describe would certainly be upsetting, but do you really think there is NOTHING worse a woman can do?

It is possible you have such strong opinions about this matter because you went through something similar. If that is the case you have my sympathy, but you're putting too much importance into a person's virginity. Betrayal is a truly evil thing to do to someone you love, virgin or not.

A woman's virginity can not and should not be treated as a "sacred-type thing". A person's first sexual encounter need not be percieved as their most important. Sex with a person (or persons) you love is a wonderful thing, but there are also people who enjoy screwing pimply kids in the back of Ford Fiestas. Surely all that matters is the wishes of the woman involved. It is not up to ANY man to dictate how/when/where/with whom they enter the world of sexuality. Female virginity is not a "special thing" unless the woman involved sees it as such. Basically, it is purely a matter of choice for the INDIVIDUAL.

Sex is many things to many people, can we try to move beyond the out dated notions of "sacrad virgins", "robbed innocence" and other relics of less enlightened times.

Buddha loves you.....I'm just trying not to hit you.

[–] Bladerunner 17 years ago

Dear Droppedelbow,

I know what a fan you are of the sweeping condemnation, the pious indignation that leads you to frequently call your fellow forum mates on the carpet, but your lack of respect for your own virginity does not a summer make.

Speaking of "sweeping statements"... whew, is this a doozy!

A woman's virginity can not and should not be treated as a "sacred-type thing."

Ummm... ok, I guess that is settled, since droppedelbow says it's so.

Errr... if you don't mind though, allow me to kindly disagree with that "sweeping statement", if you please.

Female virginity is not a "special thing" unless the woman involved sees it as such.

Wow, even more "sweeping statements"... yer just full of 'em today, ain't ya?

I have an answer for that... wrong. Let me repeat that for the cheap seats... wrong. A person's virginity (male or female) is a special thing, and contrary to what you (wrongly) believe, which is: "It is not up to ANY man to dictate how/when/where/with whom they enter the world of sexuality" it most certainly IS up to (some) man to (at least) facilitate them entering into "the world of sexuality", unless they are counting on a woman or an iguana lizard to do that for them.

Of course we can go around and around about this, just as many people go around and around about abortion. To one person it is sacred life, to another it is a woman's choice. But the bottom line on both issues is this, somebody is right and somebody is wrong. I believe I am right and you believe you are right, so lets just agree to disagree and you can save the grandiose posturing for someone else, mmm-k?

I believe that it is still necessary to try to protect a child's innocence, while you believe that being robbed of one's innocence is a "dated notion". I wonder if you would still believe that claptrap if you had a daughter of 12 get raped in the backseat of a car? I'll bet you all that big liberal talk about "relics of less enlightened times" wouldn't much comfort you then, what say?

Truth is truth. It doesn't "evolve", it doesn't change, and it doesn't bend for droppedelbow. 2 + 2 = 4 or it doesn't. So feel free to live in this "enlightened time" (gag) and chuck off "dated notions". Me? I'll stick with the truth, and that never changes, is never "dated" and has always been "enlightening".

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

[–] droppedelbow 17 years ago

Knowing how much of a sabre rattler you are, I took time over my initial response to make sure that I was polite, sincere and in no way aggressive. I did not want this to deterioreate into a name calling match like our last "chat". You felt the need to resort to sarcasm, so well done you, very mature!

I'll give up trying to have anything resembling a civilized argument as that seems beyond you.

I'll leave you with a few points that you have misprepresented me on.

"Female virginity is not a "special thing" unless the woman involved sees it as such. " You consider that a sweeping statement? How can anything be a sweeping statement if it includes the word "unless"?

"It is not up to ANY man to dictate". You suggest this is wrong. Dictate is obviously the word you don't seem to grasp. I know that men are sometimes required for sexual congress, but my point is that it is the woman's decision when she loses her "innocence". It is not a man's decision when or how she does. Otherwise, that's rape, a crime you are aware of as you use it in your next dodgy argument.

How does the rape of a 12 y/o equate to a women's choice on when she loses her virginity? This lack of logic was what I suppose I should expect from a believer in fairy tales.

If you are happy with living your life along the lines laid out by an old book made up centuries ago, please carry on. But please, please don't expect people who can actually think for themselves to do likewise.

Forgive me if my idea of "truth" is different from yours.

Was that enough "grandiose posturing" you pious godbotherer?

Buddha loves you.....I'm just trying not to hit you.

[–] Bladerunner 17 years ago

Oh don't run to the corner and start pouting on me elbow! Geez, you'd think you skint your knee and needed me to kiss it and spray some Bactine on it.

Don't pick and choose the things I respond to, I also noted your "sweeping statement" that was:

A woman's virginity can not and should not be treated as a "sacred-type thing".

...yet you didn't defend that one.

Also, you said...

...can we try to move beyond the out dated notions of "sacrad virgins", "robbed innocence" and other relics of less enlightened times.

All I was doing with the comment about a 12-year-old being raped is illustrating that "innocence" can be "robbed", so it isn't as outdated as you might like it to be.

If you are happy with living your life along the lines laid out by an old book made up centuries ago, please carry on. But please, please don't expect people who can actually think for themselves to do likewise.

As I said, truth is truth, I don't give a damn WHEN "the book" was written, if it's true, it's germane. The end.

I'm not expecting you do "do likewise" at all! Do what you please. Jump off a friggin' cliff for all I care. All I was saying is that most guys would consider what Zooey did as really, really hurtful and being very cavalier with her virginity.

Earlier in our discussion, you made the statement that the tone or content of my message indicated that I "...went through something similar", which I hadn't (but I don't fault you for thinking I might have). Well... back at you. I think *you* have been through something similar which is why you barked so loudly at me in this post. Did you "toss" your virginity away on some sleezoid?

Forgive me if my idea of "truth" is different from yours.

You don't need to ask me for forgiveness, we're just talking here, right? I don't think it calls for you to start the name-calling, but I suppose that is your right to do so.

So far you've called me a "saber rattler", a "fan of the sweeping statement", and now I'm a "pious godbotherer". You might consider not starting or ending your posts with name-calling generalizations, but I'm sure you'll justify that by something I've done, so I don't know what good it does to ask you to curb that just a bit.

"Female virginity is not a "special thing" unless the woman involved sees it as such. " You consider that a sweeping statement? How can anything be a sweeping statement if it includes the word "unless"?

Because you are dogmatically saying that it is NOT a "special thing" unless the woman says it is, as if any man's opinion means jack sh!t.

Lets turn this around a little, ok? If you were in a relationship with a guy, an exclusive relationship as the characters in this film were in, would you be "ok" with him sleeping with another woman? Why? After all, it's *HIS* body, right? Why would YOUR opinion about what he does with his body matter? See what I mean, it DOES matter what the other person thinks about what you do with your body. So, just because a woman doesn't think that her virginity is a "special thing" doesn't mean it isn't, which was your statement, which is pretty "sweeping". In other words, the man's opinion MATTERS. Or does your opinion about what he does with HIS body not matter? Yea, it matters. THAT is what I was saying, ok?

Cheating on your partner with another person is most often grounds for ending the relationship (with exceptions, such as "open relationships" and so forth). Imagine how much it would hurt if you REALLY loved a guy, you had really invested yourself in him and in the relationship, and then suddenly you catch him cheating. Would it hurt? Yea. Now imagine you're a guy and in the same situation, except your girlfriend is a virgin! Imagine how much it might hurt the guy if he caught her — not only cheating — but losing her virginity in the process, to a guy she barely knew. Think that might hurt the boyfriend? THAT is what I'm talking about. How does that make me a "pious godbotherer"?

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

[–] droppedelbow 17 years ago

OK, lets try this again.

The reason I didn't defend the other line you thought was sweeping? On reflection, it was not a line I could defend. It was sweeping.

Now you appear to be changing the argument. Apparently "all you were saying" was: most guys would consider what Zooey did as really, really hurtful and being very cavalier with her virginity.

No, that's not ALL you were saying. If it was I would have read your post, thought "hmm, Bladerunner makes a good point" and moved on. Your point did not suggest you were speaking for "most guys". You were stating as fact what you believe is the sacred nature of a woman's virginity.

Did I ever state that betrayal wasn't a vile, horrible thing to do to one's partner? Did I ever condone Zooey's actions? Nope. The points in your post I took issue with were purely the ones revolving around how it was not a woman's decision how or when she lost her virginity.

I liked this bit: "Because you are dogmatically saying that it is NOT a "special thing" unless the woman says it is, as if any man's opinion means jack sh!t. " Guess what? A man's opinion does mean JS in that situation. A person's virginity is theirs to do with as they see fit. This is not a gender issue, it is simply my opinion that NOBODY has any say in what an adult does with their virginity other than the person themselves.

I can not understand how you think it is anybody else's business how anyone runs their life. As long as nobody gets hurt and no laws are broken, why is it anything to do with you/me/anybody else?

So to recap my opinions:
Betrayal very bad, me no like it. If you're in a relationship, please be mindful of your partner's feelings.
Virginity is something that a person can resent, admire, worship, ignore. But it is only THAT PERSON who has a say in what is done with it. If s/he is in a relationship, a wo/man should of course respect the feelings of their partner. If they are single, it is nobody else's damn business.

My final comment? I've saved that for my favourite bit of your post: "Well... back at you. I think *you* have been through something similar which is why you barked so loudly at me in this post. Did you "toss" your virginity away on some sleezoid? "

I asked the opinion of my wife on this matter, as she is the person you are calling a "sleezoid". It appears I didn't toss away my virginity, as far as she is concerned.

In order to gauge her opinion on the whole argument (seeing as we seem to be mostly discussing a woman's virginity, I thought one of us should at least talk to a woman regarding the issue). She thinks your ideas are as outdated and draconian as I do. Truth be told, her view on the matter makes me seem positively Victorian on the whole matter.

Hopefully now we can leave this as "You believe in a big book with some truly nice stories and some very valid arguments, I believe that the world is not made by invisible magicians. The two will never match, but lets try and play nicely in future".

Buddha loves you.....I'm just trying not to hit you.

[–] Bladerunner 17 years ago

I spoke to my wife on this issue, and she said she believes that your opinion is cavalier (her word), crass and ungodly (she is a very spiritual person). She also believes that you play fast and loose with the truth and is frankly disgusted by your seeming desire to toss off all things pure and sacred. She had some choice words to say about your wife, none that I couldn't repeat here, but there is something to be said for not saying anything when you can't say anything nice. Her views on it make mine look liberal.

As my wife was a virgin when we married, yes, you read that right, she was a virgin when we *married*... lost it on her wedding night. If she had been unattractive that might not have been much of a feat, but since she is stunningly beautiful and in her middle twenties when we married, it was quite some achievement. However, not one that she ever had much pride in. In other words, it was just the right thing to do in her mind and nothing to brag about or to spend any time talking about.

I was not a virgin, although after I had my religious conversion I was celibate for five and a half years until we were married (two before I met her).

I don't believe it is in the least "Victorian", because that was simply modesty for modesty sake. Our mutual abstaining was out of love and obedience to our God, and was anything but miserable, as a matter-of-fact those were some of the most peaceful years of my life and I do take pride in that. I've lived on both sides of that fence, and I think I am qualified to say (for me) that the grass was certainly not greener on the "fornicating" side. We've been married now for close to 17 years, so as you can see us not having sex before we were married had no ill effect on our relationship.

It would have been nice if you could have refrained from making that very tired, boring and oh so inaccurate statement concerning the "big book", but whatever allows you to do the cognitive dissonance necessary so you can sleep at night. I also do not believe in "invisible magicians" that would have been necessary to circumvent the Laws of Thermodynamics and reverse the direction of Entropy, but if you want to believe in hurricanes in a junk yard, it is your right to believe in whatever faith you desire.

So, I agree, never shall the twain meet and lets play nice in the future.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

[–] droppedelbow 17 years ago

I'll keep this (comparitively) brief as there now seems little point in any further conversation with you.

1. I take being accused of being "ungodly" as a compliment. Please thank your wife for me.

2. Glad your wife has taken such a strong opinion on someone she has never met. So she has nothing but bad things to say about my wife, even though she knows nothing about her? How SO like a christian (and how very "spiritual") to be so judgemental. It's interesting you got offended when I only mentioned your wife (I never resorted to insulting her, and even appologised for the meer mention of her), yet you feel it is OK to be thoroughly rude about mine. It's that sort of double standard that marks out the true "believer".

3. I'm glad you are happily married. Obviously what works for you, works for you. I've only been married for 10 years, but I'd still say that's a reasonably succesful period. What say we both go on living as we see fit. But guess what? I don't have a silly little belief system that says I have to damn you to an imaginary place of torture. I just have to love my fellow man, even your insulting spouse.

Up until now, I've considered our little spats as an amusing little piece of sport, but now, seeing as your Mrs feels the need to play the fishwife I can't say I enjoy you any more.

Buddha loves you, but only because he hasn't dealt with you.

[–] Bladerunner 17 years ago

1. You started it pal, don't go cryin' in your soup now that you don't like how things have turned out. You go spouting that your wife "She thinks your ideas are as outdated and draconian as I do" and you can expect to get that tossed back in your face. If you're gonna toss punches, expect to be jabbed back. Put on your mask buddy and don't pout. What was that you were saying about being "judgmental"? <grin>

By the way, my wife did not insult you, she said what she said about your "opinion", remember? Not you. I never wrote what she said about your wife, or rather her opinion, remember? As a matter-of-fact I said NOTHING and remarked that if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything. Which is more than I can say for what you did. So don't put words in her, or my mouth. You started it by bringing your wife in and calling my ideas "outdated and draconian", and then you have the GALL to sit there and JUDGE me and my wife for what we said about your OPINION. Whew! Talk about hypocrites! Shame on you.

2. My wife doesn't need to meet you or your wife to have opinions about your views on virginity. Don't like it? Lump it. You insulted ME first, remember that. I wasn't being rude, merely truthful. Believers aren't little mice hiding in the corner, afraid of the big, bad atheists. I've been debating with atheists for over 25 years, and I've heard all of the claptrap garbage. The bottom line is that you believe that the Laws of Thermodynamics are laws NOW, but once (when it suits you) they weren't. Result? You have faith in your god, I have faith in mine, but I'm not afraid of calling a spade a spade and pointing out the absurdities of your religion.

3. You have a "silly little belief system" too. Oh, and what was that about being judgmental there elbow? About being "rude". Something about a "double standard"? I find your belief system about as logical as spontaneous generation, and twice as stupid, but hey, as you say... to each his own.

Oh and one last thing, you wrote:

The points in your post I took issue with were purely the ones revolving around how it was not a woman's decision how or when she lost her virginity.

When the heck did I say that? I NEVER said that! THIS is what I said:

Women, girls, whatever age you are... hear THIS, the absolute, very, very, very worst possible, most horrific, terrible, cruel, vicious, hateful, sad, life-killing, painful, heart-wrenching, devastating, depressing, soul-crushing thing you can possibly do, is to give your virginity to someone else when you're dating us.

Read that? WHEN YOU'RE DATING US! Sure, I also said:

Sure, it's gonna happen sometime, but don't treat it like it's something you've gotta get rid of, which is the way I see a lot of movies treat it (not this one) - and damn sure don't let some pimply kid you just met take it in the backseat of a Ford Fiesta, ya know? That's all I'm sayin'.

I was speaking for MYSELF, my opinion, not other guys. The earlier statement about when you are DATING US was about other guys. The final statement was MY OWN OPINION, and was just a "suggestion" not to "treat it like it's something you have to get rid of". Don't agree? FINE. Like what I think is gonna stop some woman from doing what she wants with her virginity! Talk about "draconian", that's you trying to make me feel bad about my OPINION. Well, guess what? I don't feel bad, as a matter-of-fact I feel GREAT about my opinion.

But tell me, when did I say, that it "was not a woman's decision how or when she lost her virginity."? When did I say that? I didn't, only as it pertained to FIDELITY with the person she is in a relationship with, and even you agreed that people have a say in what their partners do with their body when they are in a committed relationship. Or are you ok with a wife sleeping around on her husband? The rest was simply my *opinion*, and had nothing to do with me saying *anything* about it not being "a woman's decision".

So...

I'm not really concerned at all whether you "enjoy me any more" or not. But since you and your wife decide to be hypocrites and rail on my "silly little belief system" when both of you believe in the equivalent of the atomic Easter Bunny, then yea… I think it best we go our separate ways... you and your "fishwife".

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Sweet_Ophelia 16 years ago

As a 20 year old female virgin, I can see where Noel was coming from in deciding to lose her virginity to a random guy as opposed to someone she had deep feelings for.

On the one hand she could have had her first time with Paul. Somebody who she loved and cared a great deal about. But on the other hand, losing your virginity to a complete stranger has its appeal - if anything embarrassing happens, then there's no harm done because you never have to see that person again. And as somebody who perhaps should have lost their virginity a few years ago.... the older you get the more you just want to get rid of the thing as quick and painlessly as possible.

That being said, I am still a virgin, not because of religious beliefs (I am an atheist) but because, unlike Noel, I would rather find someone who I love and trust.

Biology gives you a brain, life turns it into a mind - Middlesex

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] vertigo1982 15 years ago

Virginity is NOT an ASSET that can be 'lost', 'given' or 'kept'. (nor 'sold').
It is a merely a tiny membrane of flesh that has to be broken to allow sexual intercourse. That's it.
But it's true that virginity has a moral value in our societies, whatever our spirituality is.

I've heard and I believe that the first sexual experience determines a lot of someone's future sex life.
Especially for women, since the defloration can be a painful/disturbing moment.
And, yes, it's better to have it with someone nice and experienced.

Personally, virgin women really freak me out when they reach 25.
I come to wonder: what's WRONG with her? Religious zealot? Frigid? Something WORSE?...
I must admit that most of the time I just run away before finding out.

But being a virgin at 20 is not a problem, as long as you don't suffer from it.

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] vertigo1982 15 years ago

@jharkey7

- It is possible that this hypothetical woman would be frigid or religious. Either one of these things is just as healthy and valid as having sex with someone so as "not to be a virgin" anymore. (...) Whether you're not having sex due to religion or you are having sex due to modern culture, either way you are simply a tool of others.

Okay, you've got a point, and I actually agree with everything you said.

My point is, precisely, that I wouldn't dare to date a woman who has no idea of what sex is, because it could mean that she is not emotionally mature.

I'm not saying that virginity is a terrible thing. Really, I don't care.
But you must expect a grown woman to have some notions of what life can be, with its ups and downs. Sex, with all the emotional charges attached to it, is quite an important matter.
I'm more attracted to women who know, out of their own experience, what they can get from it... and what they can't.
Women who see sexuality as it should be: a very simple and nice thing, that can bring two human beings closer to each other, thus strenghtening their emotional bound.

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Al_and_Smithy 12 years ago

I don't feel Noel went to the party with the intent of hooking up. As evidenced on the phone, she was really drunk, and presumably the guy was too. This is a recipe for disaster, and I think most guys would have hit the road to go to that party to prevent what happened. It sounded like she wanted paul there.

I can understand her statement that while in the middle of it was when she figured out that she loved him. I'm sure she and Mr X dove into it with a lot of passion, but as it progressed, she probably felt that it was an empty experience.

The biggest mistake that Paul made was the fact that he didn't give much detail when he would tell Noel he didn't want to sleep with her. I found this part disturbing from a dialog point of view. I found it somewhat unrealistic after they had developed this rapport where they could communicate so well and talk about most anything.

[–] IL_Maestro 10 years ago

I understand u, but it is just unrealistic movie
what is really weird is that someone would say he shouldn't be really pissed off or shouldn't be that much pissed off and he should've tried to work it out
it is like, the movie is twisting the story to make it like it is abt virginity and that he was attracted to her only coz of it then ran away when she lost it
while the truth is even if she wasn't a virgin, what she did was absolutely terrible coz they were going out
and he was into her and treated her nicely even b4 knowing that she was a virgin
but the whole movie was unrealistic, if he was her first bf then how come she is so relaxed around him? knowing he was with a lot of girls b4 her
also why would a virgin girl lose her virginity like that at that age and being in a relationship where she was treated nicely?

"It is never about what happened, it is only how you look at it!"