MovieChat Forums > Beyond Borders (2003) Discussion > Why even have a kid if you know it's goi...

Why even have a kid if you know it's going to suffer?


I just saw this movie yesterday and I've been moved pretty deeply. I already knew that there were some horrible things going on out there, but BB really gives a sobering look at what that life is like (and I'm sure it's even worse than I can fathom). I'm attempting a review of the movie but I have mixed feelings about something and maybe it's irrelevant but I just can't help but wonder.

We've been seeing starving children in television commercials as long as I've been around. That's only 27 years but I am assuming it's been like this for a lot longer than that. What I don't understand is why someone would choose to have a child in those conditions, knowing that the child is doomed to a life of suffering. Are you telling me that every single child out there, when they were born, had parents who thought they had the means to raise the child properly? Do they really think that after all this time, something is going to drop out of the sky and save them all between now and the time the child is, say, five years old? I'm not one to deny that Life is beautiful and valuable, but the question is -- valuable to whom? Certainly not to the child living the life, but maybe to the parents. That just seems awfully selfish. I guess when you're living the kind of life that they do, you'll do anything to bring joy into your life, you'll do anything for a reason to live. And having a kid is practically the only way to pacify that need. That's my best guess anyway. I just don't see what the point of life is if you don't have "a life" to go with it. But everyone thinks that "a life" is not important because it's not some divine gift provided by God the way Life itself is. Even more baffling is our obsession with preventing "birth defects" caused by drinking and smoking, when people who STARVE can have kids who are still alive at 5-6 years old.

I hope I'm not opening a can of worms or anything, I just don't know if maybe I've been misinformed about this kind of thing. I've led such a sheltered life that it is downright embarrassing for me some days, the things that I don't know about this world. It would be interesting to know the statistics, how many of the parents really believed that things would get better and how many of them just did it as an act of "desperation".

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I’m a little confused as to what you’re trying to say; sorry. However, from what I can tell you are asking why “these” people that live in “these” conditions would have children, correct? Also, having a mind set that the children will have the best means of life is irrelevant to them because you think “these” people have children for their own selfish needs and having a child would represent some kind of hope or happiness???

Well, to answer that from what I think…

Do you really think “these” people have the means of birth control or even have the same ideal as we do in “free” world in regards to children? That was rhetorical, by the way, because they don’t. Also, there’s many other brutal reasons as to why children “happen” such as rape in relation to these woman. It’s very very sad. All rape is!! :( However, these woman don’t have the proper medial care etc., so it’s even worse. Even in many of these countries woman are treated as though they aren’t even human. There’s no other way to call that but horrible and even that is a euphuism in my opinion. Actually, if it’s a two way choice meaning “the parents” or if a child is born out of love it would be a far better scenario, certainly. However, “these” parents in their whole existence haven’t witness anything but what they see around them, which isn’t a lot - it’s horribly horribly sad. I would presume having children in “these” conditions aren’t choices but HAPPEN because the people don’t have the necessities or the means of preventing or keeping such a thing under control. I mean, look at the AIDS epidemic in Africa alone.

Anyway, looking at the reasons or rather questions you put forward why “these” people have children or why children happen “there” can’t be compared because living is so vastly different, which in my opinion is unfair and we all need to help change that in some way, because we can… even in the smallest of ways.

Nonetheless, I certainly understand where you are coming from and you mean the best intentions I would imagine, but saying “these” people have children because they thought things would get better or did it as an act of desperation I would say it is certainly neither.

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There isn't as much education, there's little to no birth control, etc. Maybe these people have a better idea of what life is that we do? Life for life's sake, not just the materialistic needs of our culture. Maybe what you should be asking is why do things like this happen in the US as well where we don't have as many excuses? Like unhappily married couples in our culture don't have kids out of boredom or for a sense of purpose? Stay in marriage for financial reasons? Our whole economic system functions on selfishness and greed for the most part. Maybe we should ask ourselves how we can waste so much and be so selfish when there's more than enough to go around to feed and clothe the whole world? I know there are economic and political reasons why it is the way it is, but that doesn't mean it makes sense.

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I completely agree, Husker4theSpurs.

I think "they" have something that we don't - the knowledge of what life is really about!! We (as in the “free” world ) tend to worry about superficial nonsense that is completely ridiculous, so in a way they have something far more profound then we do here. I think the people in those unfortunate countries know exactly what life is about. I think we could learn a lot from them, because there isn’t a thing sugar coated for them. They face life and what it’s really about EVERY second!!!

I believe they have a far more deeper human connection to people and the universe itself.

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Even more baffling is our obsession with preventing "birth defects" caused by drinking and smoking, when people who STARVE can have kids who are still alive at 5-6 years old.

I'm a little confused. You seem to be implying that "birth defects" (as you put it) caused by smoking and drinking aren't such a big deal. Is that right?

I agree with what the others have said in their responses, particularly that one about the population of the U.S. having less excuses for producing unwanted children, which doesn't stop us from doing it anyway. We DEFINITELY have less excuses for smoking/drinking birth defects, than Ethiopians have for starving.

If people in famine stricken areas only had children when they were absolutely sure they would grow up healthy, their populations would die out. They don't all conceive their children during periods of famine, either, so they don't know for sure what will happen to them. All they can do is hope for the best.

And, although I agree with what was posted earlier about women not always having a choice about getting pregnant...if I were a woman in one of those very poor countries, with no access to books or movies or TV or video games or the internet or any of the other forms of entertainment that we pampered Westerners are lucky enough to take for granted, sex might be a heck of a lot more important to me, with or without birth control!



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QUOTE: sex might be a heck of a lot more important to me

And meaningful. We've lost the deeper meaning of everything in our culture and use things and people rather than find and make connections. Of course this is a terrible generalization, yet it has merit. We search and consume more and more and more, while truth, love, and meaning are staring us right in the face waiting for us to pay attention. These things just don't have as good of PR reps and marketing as things and images, but that's what makes them so special when you find them as well.

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It's called Immortality - this topic has been mulled over in several films and programmes from TV series.
People have children to give their life meaning.
They consider it a kind of continuation.
If they have a child, then they will not in a sense 'die out' - their children will be a kind of carrier of their identities, and they hope thier children have more children etc.
People consider this the nearest they get to Immortality - in this material world anyway.

Just look at many of the disadvantaged people in the developing countries - they often have children numbering double figures - sadly many die before reaching 18, 10, 5 or even 1.
Many people in those countries have nothing - they can only see children as a way of bringing purpose into their otherwise meaningless lives, even though they might suffer.


Listen to Eva Cassidy's Music now http://www.synuk.com/eva It'll change your life

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Because we're human! Sex, drugs, booze, etc... we are all vulnerable to it. Especially so if our lives are in the crapper. Why is there such a population growth in Africa? Because people get raped, because they're human and naturally sex is a good way to forget about the hell you're in. When someone is high on drugs they are more prone to having sex. People there like people here who are having a bad life will do anything to numb themselves to it. Hence, you have drugs and sex, and hence to that, AIDS. So, why have a kid if you know it's going to suffer? Because they can't exactly go perform abortions! Because sometimes women are raped and become pregnant! It's a known thing that sex is a method to reproduce. So when someone has sex without protection (perhaps they can't afford it or find it or maybe don't know there is such a thing) and they get pregnant. Oh well. We're human. WHat can we do? Stop having sex? Sorry but celibacy is not always a choice. Respect for life has diminshed because of situational standards. It's horrible and disturbing to know. But why sit around just mourning over it when you could be over there helping?

SIncerely,
Raven

" I die and am reborn from the ashes."

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I get so sick of all this hypocritical, self-loathing, left-wing, idealist, hippie b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t... It's ridiculous! You're more inclined to blame Western civilization, Democracy, Capitalism and our good economies (which all go hand in hand) than you are to blame the poorly mismanaged governments of these so-called 'developing' countries. Seems to me that America, Britain, France, Germany... etc. are doing precisely as they should do. They simply put their own people above others... and there isn't anything wrong with that.


You foolishly assume that starving Africans have a clearer knowledge of what it is to be alive than North Americans or Europeans. You're giving them too much credit. Everyone knows that if you can only afford or can only grow, gather or hunt enough food to feed 3 people, you shouldn't invite 4. Even with that knowledge they continue to pump out more and more babies. There is an upper class, a ruling class throughout most 'developing' nations and they exploit their people. They should spend less on themselve and more on their people, more on developing their infastructure, more on economy and education. Often times, the people in control of these countries selfishly hoard any money, food or goods that North American and European governments provide. There are billions of poor people in China and they don't have problems like African's do... Why? Because the Chinese have a reliable system of government. Why should a typical North American or European care for them if their own government doesn't? Let me tell you what an average citizen in an average 3rd world country knows - they know that they would gladly trade places with you or me at any given moment.


Yeah, maybe they don't have access to birth control... so what? That's when pulling out, abstaining or using another orifice applies, that's how North American and Europeans spawn 1.9 kids per marriage. Western nations have done more for the advancement of the human species than any others - through science, art, literature, philosophy. I think that shows we have a pretty good grasp on living and what it means to be alive. Our governments spend billions on foreign aid each year, even when they can't ballance their own budgets. On top of that, there are literally thousands of charities that millions of Westerners contribute billions of dollars to. You think people aren't doing enough for them? What are you doing for them? What would, with your infinite wisdom, have these nations and people do? Better yet, what are these 'developing' nations doing for themselves? Instead of dumping on your own people, why not look at the good they actually do? North America has managed to do in a few centuries what most 3rd world nations have never been able to do. Maybe... just maybe... your country is doing the best that it can possibly do at this given moment... and maybe that's why it's so much better than all those other countries.


Get a grip, hippie. Do you really think you're going to save the world from an IMDb message board? If it really means that much to you, join the Red Cross or the effing Peace Corps. Flamepillar is right. Why is an African less responsible for their actions than an American? If an American woman brings 8 kids into the world, then couldn't afford to feed them, would you be on her side? Probably not. You'd think her selfish, ignorant, stupid and foolish... and rightly so. Myself, I wouldn't dare bring a child into this world unless I knew well and good that they would be well fed and taken care of. This isn't an uncommon idea, even in many poor countries. All it takes is common sense, self worth and slightest bit of education. Unfortunately those things don't exist when greedy dictators and political corruption are status quo. Don't blame us for not doing enough or caring enough. If England or the USA actually decided to really do something about it, it'd be like Iraq all over again. Can you blame them for doing things the way they already do them? Look at all the backlash they get when they try to make a major change in a bad region. And even if it were for purely humanitarian purposes, conspiracy theorists and the opposing political party would make it look as bad as possible. So, yeah... What more would you or could you do as a North American or European government than they already do? Unless you were willing to take the heat from the whole world - you'd do exactly what those governments already do. So shut up. Americans aren't as ill-informed as you and others seem to think. They see the same things you see. They have access to all the same information as you do. The difference between you and most of these people that you think are so ignorant is the fact that they aren't nearly as naive as you. They don't pretend to know more than they actually know. They don't think a stupid movie or an actress are going to save the 3rd world. In other words, they have common sense. Maybe they already knew that people in developing countries were starving to death. Maybe they didn't have to have Hollywood point it out to them. Maybe they've already had the same thoughts you're currently having... but have already gotten over them and don't need to see or hear it again. Did any of that ever occur to you? There's no doubt that there are people that are oblivious and don't know or care about what happens outside of their cozy little life, but not nearly as many as you think and not all of them live in North America. I bet these 3rd world starving people are far more oblivious to the world that surrounds them than the typical Westerner in the Internet Age. If you bothered to get to know real people, you'd already know that. And if you are surrounded by people that are that oblivious, it doesn't imply that your whole nation is that way. All it implies is that you need to change the people you surround yourself with. Don't assume that you have the knowledge or the authority to indict an entire continent of being ignorant or calloused, okay? Don't assume that these 3rd world countries even want your help... Idiots...

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Instead of blaming lack of education on the reason they keep bring children in to such a awful environment...Its the same reason why poor Irish people kept having kids even though they couldn't feed the ones they already had. Its sociality and religion.

They are told in these 3rd countries that women are only alive to have there husbands babies. Nothing else. Same with religion. Condoms are against the bible. And Christian Missionary's go over to these places and convert people. Some are Muslim which believe in the same oppressing women jargon. Not to long ago the Pope came out once again to remind everyone who Anti-Birth Control he is. Even though there are many places...#1 being Africa where people are dying of AIDS/HIV.

If these women don't do what there husbands wont. they kill by shooting, hanging, stoning etc.

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[deleted]

Condoms are not against the bible. birth control period isnt against the bible. Christianity and the pope are not related when it comes to creating religious 'laws'. A long time ago, the pope decided that the catholic church should not take part in birth control, just as he decided that no meat, but fish can be eaten, due to teh fact that the fish economy was going down.

To the reason these people have children: they live, they get married, they have sex. Theres no special reason that many children, they just live as anyone else does, although the fact that they do not have birth control would inhibit the control of their propogation.

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"There's no doubt that there are people that are oblivious and don't know or care about what happens outside of their cozy little life, but not nearly as many as you think and not all of them live in North America."

Jeffrey, I feel very sorry if this is truly the way that you feel. I understand the point that you were trying to make, and much to my own sorrow, agree with some of it.
Yes, there is corruption in these countries, and yes, the governments of some of these countries could help their people but don't out of greed. The thing that truly hurt in your post is that you believe that if the governments of these countries actually helped then the situation would change...and this is naive.
This is a different culture than what you know. Not a single Westerner can grasp this concept. Its always, "my way or the highway" in a lot of Western society. They simply cannot understand why everyone doesn't think and feel the same way that they do.
Ignorance is sadly not limited to these 'underdeveloped' countries, it exists in every nation, on every continent in the world. I think what moviechick was trying to say is that there is unfortunately a need for vehicles of Hollywood like BB. Not everyone watches the commercials Jeffrey, they either switch the channel or go get something to eat. Think about that. These NGO's are trying to solicit help for a situation that has gotten too far out of control for any local aid. They know that countries that have access to television and the internet are either oblivous or uneducated to the situation. In movies such as this however, there is a prime opportunity to reach some of those people that otherwise would have changed channels. Its unfortunate that it has come to this.
I'm not a 'bleeding heart' liberal, nor am I a 'hippie'. I realize that unfortunately, there will always be poor and suffering in the world, this is a fact of life. But neither will I ignore it or turn my head so I don't see.
Its sad that we are reduced to leaving such posts on a site like IMdb. You mentioned joining the Red Cross or Peace Corps...I have news for you, there is even corruption and bureaucracy in these organizations. I have tried to offer my time and assistance to these 'great' organizations, unfortunately, I am 'not educated' enough for them. You see, you have to be superior in education to the people that you want to help in order to help. What irony.I can't help a fellow human being because I'm not an engineer, teacher or doctor.
I do want you though to look around you the next time you are with your friends and really think, 'do they get it? do they realize how fortunate they are to the circumstances to which they were born?' If you can honestly, and I mean honestly say yes, then you are definitely luckier than most. I have 'talked' to people as you've suggested, for my part I'm not so lucky. My answer would be a resounding, "no, they don't get it".
Respectfully...

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nevermind

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[deleted]

[deleted]

There are billions of poor people in China and they don't have problems like African's do... Why? Because the Chinese have a reliable system of government.

You hear that, Africa? The time is Mao!
(By the way, when did you change from a continent to a nation?)

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Hah! Glad you noticed that, too. Generally, people who begin a post by ranting about hippies and bleeding heart liberals don't go on to extol communist dictatorships but there are always exceptions, I guess.

One thing no one has mentioned is that there are strong economic as well as social pressures for having as many children as possible in underdeveloped countries. First, the only employable members of the family are often those between 6 and 12 (according to UNDP) and they have to support the whole, aging family so it's important to keep trying to produce the next worker. Second, there are no social safety nets in these countries. No disability insurance, no unemployment checks, no pensions or social security (did any of you think there would be?)so the man who has the greatest number of children is the wealthiest because he has enough wage-earners to keep him alive longer.

The tale is told of the social and medical workers re-visiting a village where they had spent a lot of time and effort teaching the people about birth control. An old man saw and remembered them and said, 'You see now that we were right and you were wrong! Twenty years ago you told me I should only have two children and that my life would be better. I had 12 children and now I live better than anyone else in the village because all of my children earn money or raise food and share it with us. You should try our system in your country, right?'

I hope the movie inspires just a few people to find out more about the rest of the world and not assume that things are the same everywhere. Nor that the American way, marvelous though it be, is the only way.

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I find jeffrey's entire post incredibly appalling. It's obvious this person doesn't understand anything; hence, he has to resort to name-calling and generalizations to try to get his "point" across.

That's when pulling out, abstaining or using another orifice applies, that's how North American and Europeans spawn 1.9 kids per marriage. Western nations have done more for the advancement of the human species than any others - through science, art, literature, philosophy.

Ethnocentric bulls$#@. I suspect you learned this from your ethnocentric high school history teacher.

Hmm, who came up with Algebra? The Arabs. Who came up with paper money? The Chinese. I can cite all kinds of different technologies that other cultures have contributed to humanity but I won't waste any more time on you.

Please, don't ever breed.

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eddelreal - Can you come up with a counter argument to jeffery's point of view or are you just going to call him names and insult him? If you have no counter-point and result to only name-calling then you just as dumb as say jeffery is.

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Excuse me, I didn't know that IMDb message boards were academic forums where one was supposed to debate in the classical, academic sense.

And I did give a few examples of why previous poster was wrong. This is more or less an Internet forum for entertainment. I can state my opinions as I damn well please.

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Don't forget, all the women get raped on a regular bases...and since there is little to no birth control, what else can they do...they cannot get abortions...this movie was wonderful, but so sad, I saw it about 60 minutes ago for the first time and I am still crying very hard. I do not understand the world be live in.

*~*Kimmie*~*

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Here's the short of it...in these third-world countries, usually the men have their say, and much of the time they want sex/more children (also, some have children so they have more hands working, which, obviously, yields more money). Birth control is not at all available to the women, and there are no programs available to teach these people about how to take care of their family. Family-planning doesn't exist in these unfortunate countries. There is also a major lack of disease-awareness. People realise they are dying, but they don't know anything about the diseases killing them. I just got back from Uganda, where I visited several schools. In the primary schools, one of the things they concentrate on teaching the children (mind you, most of these children are elementary-school age), is abstinence. They keep having children in these conditions because either they don't know any better, or they have no way of stopping it.

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[deleted]

i appreciate all of ur opinions...i used 2 hav the same opinion, 2...y do these ppl hav kids if they knw they cant afford 2 bring them up....but, now i thnk they have kids because family is the only thng these ppl have left...no money, no homes, nothing tht a lot of us have...the only way they keep their faith tht life is worth living is to make a family, n do their best 2 make their family the pride of their lives...if family is the only thng u hav left in life, wouldnt u wnt it 2 b as big as u cn make it?

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There are many reasons for it:

1. Lack of birth-control.
2. A culture in which 'birth control' is seen as being 'wrong'.
3. Children are a means by which people secure their future. Children take care of their parents in old age.
4. The more you have, the more likely it is that some of them will actually survive past the age of 5. [Have you seen infant mortality rates for developing nations?] The horrible paradox of this is that the better health provision gets, the more childre survive, and continue to add to the problem of overpopulation.
5. Women don't have control over their bodies - if the husband wants regular, unprotected sex, that's exactly what he'll get.
6. Children are a blessing in and of themselves. That is, having a large family is culturally seen as a measure of a different kind of wealth.

and one which wraps it all up neatly; 7. Lack of education. This is by far the biggest reason for why people have as many problems as they do, not just those related to overpopulation and making babies. Lack of education means that people get stuck in the same old ruts as they've always been in; not knowing about birth control options, still believing that men rule over women's rights, still believing that birth control is somehow unnatural or otherwise wrong, etc, etc etc. A lot of it comes down to education.

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