Unrealistic - Le fils (2002) Discussion

But he was only 11, this is why he only gets 5 years.
I like this movie very much.

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[–] angelx 19 years ago

The film is supposed to be a Christian allegory that tackles the theme of redemption and forgiveness.

The ending is one of the most moving I have ever seen.

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[–] pan1958 18 years ago

I don't think its unrealistic at all. I don't hope it is. But im convinced that it is very unrealistic for a regrettable majority of people.

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[–] nunquam 18 years ago

On its face, it may seem bizarre, but it has happened before. There was a famous case of Bruce Murakami, whose wife and daughter were killed instantly when their minivan was struck by a drag-racing teenager named Justin Cabezas.

At first, Murakami was on a mission to put the teen behind bars for as long as he could. Murakami had managed to arrange a one-on-one meeting with Cabezas. Here's an excerpt from an article:

But something changed when Murakami finally laid eyes on Cabezas at his September 2001 arraignment. Expecting a punk, he encountered a clean-cut honors student. "He was a scared boy," says Murakami. "I couldn't see sending a kid the same age as my son to prison for 30 years."

Cabezas expressed his deep remorse, and Murakami forgave him. Instead of the prison sentence, Murakami petitioned to get Cabezas 10 years probation (2 years under house arrest), and then 300 hours of community service which involved him travelling around with Murakami speaking to high school students about the dangers of reckless driving. There's more information at Murakami's web site for his wife and daughter http://www.touchedby.com.

In that situation, and in Olivier's situation in Le Fils I think there's something deeper going on here because it is a parent-child relationship and the perpetrator was also a child. Despite his gruff exterior, it's clear that Olivier is a very kind and loving person. The boy Francis is an emotional nexus for so much love and anguish in Olivier's life, a kind of last connection to his own son and to a terrible time in his family's life. He is drawn toward Francis because of it.

I don't think Olivier is making rational decisions about this...revenge and forgiveness are coiled around each other in his heart. He has all the power in the relationship as well, because no one knows what's happening except for his ex-wife, so he can take his time until he figures out what's going on in his own head and heart. He also needs time to decide what he wants to do...and he wants to do something. He has to put his son's memory to rest somehow because his own life is stalled. (His wife is already having another child with another man.)

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[–] Lempea 17 years ago

We don't make Christian allegories in European films. Plus, the Dardenne brothers are sponsored by the Belgian left wing, of which members are atheists most of the time. And by the way the brothers suck, their movies are utter crap and left-wing propaganda.

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[–] TheWanderingFish 17 years ago

I'm glad Lempea could clear that up for us poor schlubs who thought the Dardenne brothers might actually have some talent.

"Or perhaps it's not overrated"

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[–] jewellrunner 17 years ago

I'm sure it wouldn't interest you to know that many Dardenne brothers' films make the yearly 'Art & Faith's Top Spiritualy Significant Films' lists?

My Reviews - http://www.rottentomatoes.com/vine/journal_view.php?journalid=195926&view=public

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[–] CitrusWithFuschiaTrim 15 years ago

I'm sure it wouldn't interest you to know that many Dardenne brothers' films make the yearly 'Art & Faith's Top Spiritualy Significant Films' lists?

That is noteworthy, but that doesn't really tell us anything about their intent when making the film. Lempea may have a point: irreligious folk are no less likely than the most devout believer to make a film about moral dilemmas, etc. (Heck, atheists might even be more successful, IF it means they have fewer qualms about depicting 'immoral' behaviour on film in the first place.)

I've heard this 'Christian allegory' claim made before, circa "Rosetta", but not yet from the mouths of the Dardennes. Have they actually spoken in such terms somewhere?
_____
I suppose on a clear day you can see the class struggle from here.

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[–] skopofiil 14 years ago

They actually have. Here's the quote:

TD: To what extent can we read this film as a religious parable?

JPD: It's said to us so often that there must be some truth somewhere! We hope though we haven't illustrated the script of the passion. It's true that if you want to read it a certain way, there is a religious dimension. When Olivier is in the lumberyard, and at one point Olivier climbs up to the top, he drops one of the planks. I don't know how, it must have been a fluke, I think one of the actors must have been in profile, and we had the father, the son, and the cross. And we yelled 'Cut' because it was too much.

Here is the rest of the interview:
http://www.kamera.co.uk/interviews/a_quick_chat_with_jean-pierre_and_luc_dardenne.php

So they don't confirm, that it was an intended allegory but agree, that such a reading is possible.

It is also true, that one can make very good movies, that deal with religious issues, without actually being a believer. Just look at Bunuel :)

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[–] CitrusWithFuschiaTrim 14 years ago

And we yelled 'Cut' because it was too much.

Haha. Wow!

Thanks for all of that skopofiil. Very interesting...
_____
I suppose on a clear day you can see the class struggle from here.

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[–] PoppyTransfusion 12 years ago

Re: It has happened before...
by - Lempea on Wed Feb 28 2007 23:47:33
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We don't make Christian allegories in European films. Plus, the Dardenne brothers are sponsored by the Belgian left wing, of which members are atheists most of the time. And by the way the brothers suck, their movies are utter crap and left-wing propaganda.

Welcome to one of the posts granting entry to the weird and crazy world that is the IMDb!

I'm a fountain of blood
In the shape of a girl

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[–] beat 8 years ago

We don't make Christian allegories in European films. Plus, the Dardenne brothers are sponsored by the Belgian left wing, of which members are atheists most of the time. And by the way the brothers suck, their movies are utter crap and left-wing propaganda.

ladies and gentlemen, a true conoisseur and deeply knowledgeable expert has spoken. 

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[–] berzelmayr 16 years ago

Very good answer, nunquam, I couldn't have said it better.

> Dan Brown's error: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0piyS7jaKc

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[–] Cal_Mac 16 years ago

This story was the basis for the TV movie Crossroads: A Story of Forgiveness (2007) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0892097

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[–] PoppyTransfusion 12 years ago

nunquam, What a great post and thanks for the story of Murakami, which I'd never heard of before.

The boy Francis is an emotional nexus for so much love and anguish in Olivier's life, a kind of last connection to his own son and to a terrible time in his family's life. He is drawn toward Francis because of it.

I don't think Olivier is making rational decisions about this...revenge and forgiveness are coiled around each other in his heart.

Very well put. This is the complexity that is Oliver and as I watched him I was fascinated with him and at the same time unsure as to what he do and how he would resolve the dilemma.

It seems that part of his ploy with bringing Francis into the carpentry class is to watch him and I imagine this watching is to assess his son's murderer and also compare him with his son. I found the scene where Oliver sneaks Francis's keys and goes to his studio very touching. Francis had so little and Oliver lay on his bed. Not sure why but it affected me.

I'm a fountain of blood
In the shape of a girl

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[–] CaucasianMale 17 years ago

there's nothing realistic about the lack of dialogue.

http://codeknown.blogspot.com/
http://thefilmforum.8.forumer.com/index.php

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[–] imnotokay_ipromise 17 years ago

I like the Dardenne brothers. They made L'Enfant, which I thought was good.
I thought this was good, too, but slow. In that comes its own beauty, because it is like filming real life. I like it, and I think that it is realistic. You cannot say it is not until you experience such a thing in real life.

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[–] crayola24 16 years ago

Talk about missing the point. The film is about forgiveness.

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[–] Benedict_Cumberbatch 16 years ago

Is it an unlikely situation? Yes. But life isn't black and white, my friend.

"I did cramps the way Meryl Streep did accents" - Calliope (Middlesex)

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] Luminousoctaves 15 years ago

This movie is about what we SHOULD do, not what most people would do. I think the vast majority of people in Olivier's position would seriously harm the boy, and some might even go so far as to kill him

I don't think it's that simple. First of all, I don't see that this film is about what we should do. There is no moralism as such in the story, IMO.

Olivier is faced with the fact that the killer of his child is reentering his life. First he tries to push that fact away, but soon he realises that the situation is impossible to ignore.
He is, willingly or not, drawn to find out who this boy is. He has to, there is no option.

I am sure that in reality Olivier would consider killing the boy at several occasions. But there must also be other thoughts running through his head. ”Who is he? WHY did he kill my son? Does he feel regret?”

I think most human beings stuck in this position would struggle with different emotions, and I am pretty sure that most of us would also want to understand, not just take revenge.

Someone mentioned in another post that the Olivier character is a very precise and methodical carpenter, and that it is in his personality to proceed step by step in everything he does. I agree with this and think that this is a very important piece in this story. Olivier is not a person who rushes into things. He might be considering revenge – killing the kid – but he has to be sure first.

I watched this film a second time recently and I was totally blown away. The precense of it is electrifying.

So in one way, I completely disagree with johngh-1:s opinion that this is a ”biblical parable – a simple situation that tells us how we shold act”. This film is everything but simple to me.

On the other hand I agree with johngh-1: not many of us would reach to the point were Olivier is reaching; close to forgiveness. But this doesn't mean we would choose the other option: revenge.
I think most of us would just escape from the situation, like Olivier's ex-wife. (End even she wanted to see the boy in the parking lot scene.)

Life isn't black or white.

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] lachrymologist 13 years ago

Atheists have just as much at stake with the concept and action of forgiveness as do religious folk. Duh?

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[–] 13 years ago

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