If only they had found a cache of Kafka instead of Balzac, then they would have learned how futile the whole thing was anyway.
I'm just kidding of course, I love this movie, and anyone looking to get it should head over to eBay and order a Region Free (Region 0) copy from mainland China, Hong Kong, or anywhere else they can get it.
The movie is good, but not fantastic.
The place is beautiful, and the characters are fine, but the script has big holes.
It have strong contraditions between the terrible life of this boys, against some bucolical or beatiful scenes completely oposite, and without a good explanation.
And, the point of view is exesive only from French culture.
At least, Mao was right, because in this way ....
A boy was a very important musician en Paris.
Another boy was a very important doctor...
And in only 30 years, this place change from a poor, isolated and no culture place, to a house with satelital TV..!!!
Then ...what was wrong....!?!?!?
(This is only a joke ..... but ... ..)
Oski from Rosario-Argentina
I´m sorry, my english is terrrible to talk about very sutil thinks.
i didn't watch the movie so far, but i've read the book. so i can't remember any houses with satelite tv or whatever. i just assume that the movie also shows the present.
but i don't believe there are many households with satalite tv in such rural areas of china. besides there are family members who work in one of the east cost cities or this region somehow became a touristic attraction (can't remember where the story took place). further mao was NOT responsible for china's economic upturn nowadays! imho the opposite was more correct.
Hi Jago :
I know a bit about China. (Similar that you know about Argentina)
And is important for me, to know opinion from local people, because it is the best way to know something about a country.
Thanks very much.
Oscar from Rosario-Argentina
I am very sorry, Oscar, but my Spanish is lousy :-))
> The movie is beautiful, but the story has a lot of weaks points.
I don´t beleave that to read a french novel can be revolutionary, and change the mind of nobody.
It was not just *one* novel. And the movie was not just about *changing* the personality of the young girl, it was forming/modelling her mind, the mind of a young and simple person on her way of growing up who had never been in contact with a way of thinking other than her own. (Don't we all have books (or maybe movies) which influenced us a lot and which we loved in our early formative days and which even as grown-ups we still regard with nostalgy?)
Actually the movie was about the cultural clash within the same country: it was about the confrontation of educated city-people coming from intellectual family backgrounds with illiterate rural people. The French books are a metaphor for the change that literacy brings about in human beings.
> And I think that all the movie is a big thanks to France from the director.
He is falling in love with the European culture, and take his own culture like some awful.
What you call "his own culture" is far from being one homogeneous culture. His own culture was the one of educated city people who may have been regarded as too western-oriented already before, that was one of the reasons why Mao sent them to those re-education camps - you can as well say: displaced them, disrooted them. The culture he was confronted with in this village was not his own and from his point of view was retarded and had nothing or next to nothing to offer to him. To me it is very plausible that any well-educated city person will feel less displaced when moving to let's say Paris or New York than when forced to live in a remote little place with rural people - that's nothing to do with having any contempt for those people, they are just not "his crowd", that's all. It *is* a problem when difference in intellect and difference in social class becomes too big within the same country, and that's IMO one or perhaps the central topic of this movie. So I cannot see big flaws in the script (except that I found the "dentist" scene a little overdone, but that's my only objection).
Dai Sijié dealt with the topic of re-education camps before, I guess it's his first or second movie (?), but I haven't seen it and don't know whether he managed to keep it as free of personal chagrin as "Balzac". All I know is that it was not shot in China, but that the French Pyrenée-mountains had to represent the Chinese location.
Greets, Rosabel
Well, well, Rosa. I love talk to you, but these are very deep and complex topics, and my english is so poor....
I understand your point of view, but I saw the movie only like a movie story.
I know something about director and a bit about chinesse life, and nothing more.
I insist, all the story was written with a very special feeling, about those time. Across a "romantic" glass (like we see our childhood).
I saw a lot of chinesse country movies, and think that some situations are not completelly realistics, if not the view of a European people about those far years.
Where do you live..?
Oscar from Rosario-Argentina
Hi Oscar,
I live in Germany. Your English is comprehensible enough for me, even if you are dissatisfied with it :-)
> I insist, all the story was written with a very special feeling, about those time. Across a "romantic" glass (like we see our childhood).
You have a point there, I tend to agree with you. Do you happen to be familiar with the term "picaro novel"? It's a term derived from a certain category of Spanish novels, and I think "Balzac" has a tendency to see things the way this Spanish type of novels do. But this is also in line with a special kind of Chinese humor I noticed in other movies, too (and in two Chinese persons I know), so I don't think Sijiés way to look back at this historical period and personal experience after more than 30 years is just a predominantly European view. Maybe the real experience was, besides certainly having funny moments, more painful than shown in the film, that's why I'd like to know his earlier movie about the same events, perhaps he was not yet able to adopt this humourous look backwards before?
I still hold that, given the fact that he doubtlessly knows a lot more about the time and events than I do and, what's more, has experienced them personally, I am not one to criticize him for chosing how to present the facts in his film. I think it is absolutely legitimate to deal with dramatic experiences by emphasizing their *comical* aspects which often become perceptible only after a certain amount of time has passed. Like you said: we all deal with our childhood in the same way.
There's an interview with Sijié on my DVD, and if I remember correctly he said that it was the first time in 30 years that he went back to the place and found everything had changed completely, for instance the satellite antenna was there now, and they had some trouble reconstructing the place for the movie and keep all the new stuff out of view of the camera. He also talked about the difficulties with the Chinese censors: he had expected they would object to the topic of the script, that is, the re-education camps, but to his surprise they agreed to that, but rejected the idea that literature can change people's lives. He said it took him some explaining and persuading, but finally they agreed to the script as it was and he did not have to make any changes at all.
Well, that's the best I can do to explain why I do not distrust the movie :-))
Kind regards to Argentina! I have two friends from there. Rosabel
Hola Rosa..!!
"....but to his surprise they agreed to that, but rejected the idea that literature can change people's lives".
I´m shoked..!! at the end the chinesse authorities agree with me..!!! uouuuu... I´m not sure, this is good or bad for me..!!!! (he..he..he.... joke..!)
Ok, I feel that we arrive to a certain common point of view.
I remembered a little personal story about this.
Last month I was in a little town where I lived long time ago.
I never had returned to that place where I did my primary school.
It was a very strong feeling, because NOTHING..!!! was like I remembered..!!!
The old school din´t exist any more, in this place had a new and beautiful school.
Some friends´ houses was completelly changed, and I can´t find some place that in my mind was very clear...!!
In fact I was happy, because all was better than the old times, but that place din´t be MY PLACE any more.
I thought that this trip could be "a trip to my past", but in fact it was "a trip to the future of my past".
Perhaps Sijié, had the same experience when he returned to China.
At the end, this isn´t a history book, or documentary film. This is only a fiction movie, and the director has the right to say the story exactly like he feel it.
This is the interesting point in the movies from good directors; to see the world acroos a differents eyes.
- - - - -
It was a great pleseure to talk with you, and I hope to mantein the contact, to change opinions about movies or everithing that you wish.
[email protected]
Kisses
Oscar from Rosario-Argentina
PS : Why Rosa Belverde ..?? Is it your real name..?? It is a spanish name..!!!
Hi Oscar,
> I´m shoked..!! at the end the chinesse authorities agree with me..!!! uouuuu... I´m not sure, this is good or bad for me..!!!! (he..he..he.... joke..!)
That's a good one! :-))
Well, don't pick too much on the *books* - 30 years ago it was books that brought new ideas to faraway places, today it's satellite antennas which 30 years ago simply did not exist, so Sijié could not have the two students of his movie bring *TV* to the place! :-) But remember there's some kind of anticipation of this? The students are sent do the next village in order to watch a movie and come back and tell the people what the movie was about! Doesn't matter so much *what* media it is that brings about the change, but change it does bring, inevitably.
I liked your story of your 'trip back home' very much, all the more so as it is an excellent analogy and therefore relevant to the film we were discussing. Must have been a strange experience for you, too, I guess you are still thinking about it now.
And I, too, enjoyed very much our conversation. I looked up your messages to other boards, and it seems we have some taste in common :-) I also love independent films, but as I've been here only since a couple of days I did not write on many message boards yet. Check out my messages, perhaps you find some point to start with for further discussion. (I've been discussing "In the Mood for Love" with someone on a Newsgroup of Asian movies - it's a boring group, by the way, almost no traffic any more, but this guy and I got into a real good discussion all the same, but we are the only ones writing there at present. I don't know whether I should recommend to you to join us, would definitely be more interesting for us, but perhaps a waste of your time - ?)
By the way, I added you to my "list of friends", and to tell the truth you are the only person on this list so far, as I discovered this kind of list here only a couple of minutes ago. Hope you don't mind to top my list in splendid isolation! :-))
Is it possible to exchange private mails on imdb? I'll try to figure out.
Hope to hearing from you again! All the best,
Rosabel
Wouooo,...!! In the mood for love, is one of my favourite movie in all the times..!!!
Last week I saw 2046 , and it was a bit deception.
In the mood... is so so better..!!
Oscar from Rosario-Argentina
"picaro" = "picaresque".
>Dai Sijié dealt with the topic of re-education camps before, I guess it's his >first or second movie (?), but I haven't seen it and don't know whether he >managed to keep it as free of personal chagrin as "Balzac". All I know is >that it was not shot in China, but that the French Pyrenée-mountains had to >represent the Chinese location.
No, that movie was shot in location in China, and when the movie was completed, the chinese censorship forbade his movie in China. He couldn't return in China since then.
Yes, it is his second movie, but this one is much more auto-biographic then his first one. The other movie was "Chine, ma douleur". The french pyrénées doesn't looks like that at all.
@ daniel
Okay, thanks for correcting, so I must have confused things I heard in an interview with Dai Sijié.
Regards, Rosabel
"I don´t beleave that to read a french novel can be revolutionary, and change the mind of nobody."
Have you read Balzac?
"Books take one worlds away." -- Emily Dickinson.
One never knows whether a given book will transform a life. Sometimes it is the vision of a different world, a different reality, that is sufficient to change a person.
Mao both did good for China, and made mistakes.
But go right ahead hating "Commies" as you are ordered to do by "freedom-loving" totalitarians.
But go right ahead hating "Commies" as you are ordered to do by "freedom-loving" totalitarians.
@ Oski:
> And, the point of view is exesive only from French culture.
It is true that Dai Sijié has been living in France for quite some time, but as the story of the film is to a great extent autobiographical - he was one of the students who were sent to being re-educated, too - you cannot deny him his own perspective on the events of 30 years ago.
> And in only 30 years, this place change from a poor, isolated and no culture place, to a house with satelital TV..!!!
Why not? 30 years is a long span of time. AFAIK this movie was the first Dai Sijié shot in China, and I doubt he would have chosen to show how the place had changed from when he used to live there until today if a change like this were totally improbable.
To me it seems admirable how Dai Sijié managed to deal with a surely not only pleasant episode in his own life without hatred, without bearing grudges, but with a fine mocking humor instead.
Greets, Rosabel
Hi Rosabel ..!! do you speak spanish..?? (Sería mucho más facil para mi charlar contigo)
I´m not sure, I feel that the script is no good.
The movie is beautiful, but the story has a lot of weaks points.
I don´t beleave that to read a french novel can be revolutionary, and change the mind of nobody. Change somebody is a hardest work, done for a long time, not only read a book.
I saw this more like a youngest joke.
And I think that all the movie is a big thanks to France from the director.
He is falling in love with the European culture, and take his own culture like some awful.
Oscar from Rosario-Argentina
I think a major misconception here is that this movie represents a clash between "European Culture" and "Chinese Culture" in the 70's in China when in fact it is a clash between two different kind of "European Cultures": that of Marx and that of Democracy. Communist China was in no way fundamentally Chinese anymore. Chairman Mao made sure of that with the burning of the books of Confucius, the destruction and reformation of Shaolin Temple, Mencius, etc. Confucian thought, being the defining feature of what could be called Chinese, was renounced. People were stripped of freedom (those who knew what it was anyways) and they were looking for it. I think it could be said that Dai Sijie was in love with democratic freedom, which was embodied in French culture at the time (it was the only thing other than marx he came in contact with). It wasn't that he hates his own culture, as there weren't much of it left to love or hate. That's what I think anyways. You guys are welcome to let me know your responces to this.
shareHi Bio ..!!
Don´t you beleave that in certain case the commnunism is the only way to leave a completelly terrible social situation..??
I live in Argentina. We see Marx only in books. We never lived the comunism in the daily life.
I see now some really bad think in Chine, Russia, or Vietnam , but we only see the current social problems, but forgot the old social problems that was so so big. In fact in Century XX Chine and Russia lived in the Middle Age.
I know, this is a very hard dicution, but is very important for me to listen opinon of the first hands
Thanks
Oscar from Rosario-Argentina
I was sent to the countryside in 1968 for 6 years, my brother 5 years, and later my parents 3 years. You may not know that almost all high school students were sent to the countryside to become reeducated in the ways of peasantry in 1968 in China. Therefore, I would not call the coutryside labor camps because you were not forced by farmers to work; you were actual a farmer, like almost everyone in your age, doing an assigned perhaps bad job. Now, if you are assigned a bad job, what would you do, do the best you can, or to escape from it? Which way is easier? If you decide to do the best you can, you would probably study Mao's quotation book; if you want to escape from the hardship, you would ... You get the picture. Sorry to disappoint you, there was no real transformation by anything in the movie, it was a justification to...
I've been living in US almost 25 years now. I even wrote a screenplay. Guess what is about?
--peter
Hi Pete .!
I´m sorry, I´m very interested in your opinion but, I don´t know nothing about you, and in this way I don´t understand which is your point of view.
Could you talk me about your life, and your personal experience..??
I like a lot to lisen opinion of the first hand.
Thanks....!
Oscar from Rosario-Argentina
Hi Oscar,
It is a long story. May tell another time.
If you have time, check out the following books or films.
==========================================================
Book (non-fiction):
Children of Mao: Personality Development and Political Activism in the Red Guard Generation (Hardcover)
by Anita Chan
======================================
Book:
Life and Death in Shanghai (Paperback)
by Nien Cheng "THE PAST IS FOREVER with me and I remember it all..." (more)
From Publishers Weekly
This gripping account of a woman caught up in the maelstrom of China's Cultural Revolution begins quietly. In 1966, only the merest rumblings of political upheaval disturbed the gracious life of the author, widow of the manager of Shell Petroleum in China. As the rumblings fast became a cataclysm, Cheng found herself a target of the revolution: Red Guards looted her home, literally grinding underfoot her antique porcelain and jade treasures; and she was summarily imprisoned, falsely accused of espionage. Despite harsh privation even tortureshe refused to confess and was kept in solitary confinement for over six years, suffering deteriorating health and mounting anxiety about the fate of her only child, Meiping. When the political climate softened, and she was released, Cheng learned that her fears were justified: Meiping had been beaten to death when she refused to denounce her mother. The candor and intimacy of this affecting memoir make it addictive reading. Its intelligence, passion and insight assure its place among the distinguished voices of our age proclaiming the ascendancy of the human spirit over tyranny. Cheng is now a U.S. resident. BOMC main selection; author tour.
Copyright 1987 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
From Library Journal
Cheng's widely acclaimed book recounts in compelling specifics her persecution and imprisonment at the hands of Mao Zedong's "Cultural Revolution" (1966-1976). Inquisitors accused her of being a "spy" and "imperialist," but during the harrowing years of solitary confinement she never gave in, never confessed a lie. We read this, not so much for historical analysis, but, like the literature of the Gulag in Russia, for an example of a humane spirit telling terrible truths honestly, without bitterness or cynicism. Highly recommended. BOMC main selection. Charles W. Hayford, History Dept., Northwestern Univ., Evanston, Ill.
Copyright 1987 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
==============================
Movie:
Farewell My Concubine (1993)
Editorial Reviews
Amazon.com essential video
The panorama of 20th-century Chinese history swirls past two men, celebrated actors with their own decidedly specialized view of things. We first observe their lives as children at the Peking Opera training school, a brutal and demanding arena for future actors. While still in training, the effeminate Douzi is chosen to play the transvestite role and the masculine *beep* is chosen to play the royal role in a ritualized play about a king and a concubine. The actors are so good at this performance that they become identified with these roles for their entire careers; through World War II, through the takeover by the Communists, through the insanity of the Cultural Revolution, they are known for their famous parts. Leslie Cheung and Zhang Fengyi are powerful as the two men, and Gong Li (the beautiful leading lady of Raise the Red Lantern) plays the wife of the latter. The movie may be stronger on good old-fashioned melodrama than on profound conclusions, but boy, does it fill up the eyes. The director is Chen Kaige, one of the most talented members of China's "Fifth Generation" of filmmakers, whose daring subject matter (and sometimes bald international ambitions) have often irked the Chinese government. Indeed, though Farewell My Concubine shared the top prize at the 1993 Cannes Film Festival and snagged two Oscar nominations, it had difficulty gaining official approval from China. --Robert Horton --This text refers to the VHS Tape edition.
===================
Movie:
To Live (1994)
Editorial Reviews
Amazon.com
One of the best films of 1994, To Live is a bold, energetic masterpiece from Zhang Yimou, the foremost director from China's influential "fifth generation" of filmmakers. Continuing his brilliant collaboration with China's best-known actress Gong Li (their previous films include Ju Dou and Raise the Red Lantern), Zhang weaves an ambitious tapestry of personal and political events, following the struggles of an impoverished husband and wife (Ge You, Gong Li) from their heyday in the 1940s to the hardships that accompanied the Cultural Revolution in the 1960s. They raise two children amidst a Communist regime, surviving numerous setbacks and yet managing, somehow, to live. Both intimate and epic, Zhang's film encompasses the simplest and most profound realities of Chinese life during this controversial period, and for their honesty, Zhang and Gong Li faced a two-year ban on future collaborations. To Live is a testament to their art, transcending politics to celebrate the tenacity of ordinary people in the wake of turbulent history. --Jeff Shannon
=======================================
-- peter
Hi Peter...
Ok, no problem.
Thanks , your info is very interesting.
I saw Farewel my Concubine, and I think that is one of the more beautiful and interesting movie that I have seen. In fact I have the video in my home. (I bought only 4 or 5 films in my life).
I saw all the Zhang Yimou movies, but I don´t know To Live.
Thanks again..!!
Oscar from Rosario-Argentina
Hi Oscar,
If you have seen most of Zhang Yimou's films, you probably know the film: Story of Qiu Ju, which shows Zhang's perception of and respect for the peasants in China shortly after the Cultural Revolution.
-- peter
Yes, I remember Qiu Ju ...!!
But, I´m looking for some people with personal experience about the Cutural Revolution, because is a very interesting topic for me.
What do you thing about the news martial arts films of Zhang Yimou .?
Oscar from Rosario-Argentina
I like Hero (which is about sacrafice). I think House of Flying Daggers (which is about love and was made for Western audiance) is the worst film he ever made. Even here in US, Hero was more successful (53 million dollars) than House of Flying Daggers (11 million dollars).
-- peter
I agree with you.
I saw HERO, and it was a wonderful experience.
I thing that HERO is a great, great movie.
Then I went to see The House.... with the same mood, but was not the same.
For me is not a bad film, but is so so far to the quality level of HERO.
What do you thing about Wong Kar Wai..??, and his films IN THE MOOD FOR LOVE, and 2046.
Oscar from Rosario-Argentina
I think that Wong Kai Wai is probably one of the most talented film makers in the world in terms of his ability to portray mood in film form. But his films are a little too bourgeois for me. I've always struggled for survival and haven't had a lot of choices and would have to wait to be in the mood until 2046. Still, I liked 2046 -- more than In the Mood for Love.
-- peter
I think that In the mood for Love is one of the most beautiful love´s movie in the hystory of the cinema.
But when I saw 2046 was a little deseption. It is no a bad movie, but I thing that it is one step down.
Probably the problem was ME. Because 2046 wasn´t shown on the comercial theater, and I had to wait for it in a special festival in a Cinema Art Club.
I had to wait it for a long long time.
I think that you are a very interesting person to talk about everything.
If you want please write me at [email protected]
Bye
Oscar from Rosario-Argentina
Hi Oscar,
In the Mood for Love may have been a very beautiful film about love, but it is not the best film about love. It comes down to the definition of love -- what is love anyway? I recommand you to see a film called Decalogue.
Well, from now on, I'll communicate with you via email.
-- peter
Decaloge the TV serie..??
I love Kievslofky, but I din´t see Decaloge. I saw Blue, Blanc, Rouge, and The double life of Veronika.
Well, you are right, don´t exist "the love". There are a diferent kind of love by each different people.
And some films move you because just in this day you are in a special mood .
In the mood for love, has a beatiful images, beautiful photograpie, and a so so beautiful Maggie Cheung...!!!
This is a love "under estrict control", and you know, nothing more whised that something forbbiden.
Oscar from Rosario-Argentina
@ Pete
> Therefore, I would not call the coutryside labor camps because you were not forced by farmers to work;
You are perfectly right to point this out, I used the expression "camp" with some uneasiness and only because others had used it, but it is perfectly obvious from the movie itself that there was no such thing as a camp; the usage of this word leads to wrong ideas.
Is there any Chinese official or unofficial term that would be more meaningful for future usage instead of the misleading "labor camps" or "re-education camps"?
Regards, Rosabel
My parents just referred to it as "in the countryside." All the while growing up, I thought they just meant, in the country. They'd say, "remember, in the countryside...?" I thought they were talking about random times in the country, as opposed to living in the city. I never knew till much later they meant "that year we, as urban intellectuals, were sent to the village as part of the Great Leap Forward to learn from the peasants."
Much easier to say "in the countryside."
Hi Rosabel,
Well, we just called where we went the countryside. However, the youths who were sent to the countryside were called "Educated Youths" as a short for the City High-School Educated Youths who were sent to the countryside to become reeducated in the ways of peasantry. The word "sent" is also a little complicated. It is like a boss who ask you to choose a job with only one option. The boss would probably say: I know it is not the best job but we need you and the company needs you...
Majority Educated Youths left the countryside within 2-6 years. The word "left" is also a little complicated. It is a little like a boss who gives you a promotion.
-- peter
I thought the movie was horrible, a complete polar opposite of the book. For one thing, the Seamstress in the movie wasn't pretty. Another thing is that the narrator was given a name, so he does not function well as a symbol. Also, the movie made the journey to the Seamstress's house look like a cakewalk, whereas in the book, it was a perilous walk that involved crossing a very steep cliff ledge, with a 1000ft drop. The movie was horrible compared to the book, and I was suprised that the author would do such a thing to a book he wrote.
shareAgreed. You can't just beat a good novel.
shareIf only they had found a cache of Kafka instead of Balzac, then they would have learned how futile the whole thing was anyway.