Questions that have always troubled me

Hey. I will try to answer your questions, hopefully my answers make sense. I am assuming you have either read up to CoD or seen the CoD mini. Your questions are in italics, my answers are in standard text style.

1) I never fully understood what the 'place' that the BG Reverend Mothers cound't go to (and were afriad of going to) but that Paul could was...basically, what was that 'place'?

The place was having the ability to look inward and gaining access to both memory lines and other unexplored powers. It probably has to do with his being the Kwisatz Haderach. When a woman becomes a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother, she can only access the memory lives of her female line. and memories that BG's give to her by a process of sharing. For centuries the BGs, had been attempting to create an individual that had access to both male and female lines by manipulating marriages and relationships. What they did not expect was for Jessica to disobey them and give birth to a boy rather than a girl that they ordered her to give birth to. Given that, and a 'free' trip to Dune, viola: powers unleashed.

1(a) Could anybody else go there (i.e., Alia (pre-possesion))?
1(b) Why is it that they (the BG) said women couldn't go to that place?

1a. Any preborn can have access to both lines.
1b. It is never explained really, just, that happens that way. Most likely, they were afraid of becoming possessed, so they didn't bother. We do not really know if other previous BGs have tried to 'look inward' and attempted to gain all of their memory lives; but given their immence fear of the possibilities, I think that some BG might have tried it, and it did not work out well. But, that is merely conjecture on my part.

2) When Paul took the water of life and went to that 'place' where other's couldn't (see question 1 above), did he also gain all the memories of his families ancestry?

Yep, he got them all.

3) Why didn't Paul (during Dune and Dune Messiah) try and teach Alia how to deal with her ansetrial memories and develope her own unique personality and identity (thus, helping her from becoming possed), especially since he and others knew that she was pre-born and had all of her ancestial memories at birth?

She never had the chance because she was pre-born and there was no precedent for such a thing. No one knew what to do with her. She never had the chance to develop her own personality; her mother left when Paul became emperor, and he was busy (excuse the sarcasm). She kept trying to supress the other-memories lives while trying to keep getting prophetic visiions via increasing her spice intake.

No one told her not to, because like I said, this was unprecedented, and those who had influence over her that could have stopped such a thing, did not. Eventually, her method of suppression failed completely as did her ability to gain clear visions because Paul left and the other memories became stronger. Eventually, she took up the offer of the Baron, to let him use her body because he proved to her that strong enough to keep the other-memory lives away, to her detriment.

Paul became so obsessed with trying to prevent Chani from dying and trying to maintain his imperium that he pretty much turned a blind eye to anything else. It was pretty mild when he was present. It was only after he was long gone that the possession became really visible. It became a self fulfilling prophecy.

Plus, seeing as how possession would lead the individual to be sentenced by death, he would likely have to kill Alia. I doubt that he would want to publicize that. He let stuff happen because that is the path that the visions showed. He did not want to change anything because that would mean giving up his life with Chani. I hate to use this example but this is the best parallel: Anakin Skywalker, he didn't become a Jedi because that would mean saying bye-bye to Padme. He was scared of losing his happiness, so he left everyting else alone.

3(a) Was Paul not able to predict that Alia would have problems dealing with her ancestrial memories (which seems odd to me because even if that wasn't appart of his visions, he should have at least been able to logically deduce that she would face such momentus problems) or was her downfail part of his 'path' for humanity (the path that kept Chani alive and with him the longest even though it would lead to the stagnation of humanity)?

He would have seen it. He saw all possibilities. But stopping this would mean taking action against it, thus sacrificing his life with Chani. He did not want to do that. Man, I sound like a broken record, sorry about that; but pretty much explain it.

4) Is the reason why Paul and Chani's first son wasn't pre-born because Paul had yet to take the water of life by the time of the child's birth?

The reason why the twins were preborn was because Chani took way too much spice during her pregnancy, added to the fact that she was Fremen, pretty much existing on spice, probably didn't help, either. Irulan's abortifact was stopping her from having children, thus she kept taking more spice because the nurse said that it would speed things along. She wanted children so badly that she overloaded on a spice-filled diet not taking into account Paul's being the KH and his having 'looked inward'. Those kids did not have a chance of being anything but pre-born. During Leto's (the child) birth, she probably existed on a normal pregnant-Fremen diet.

Hope that helps.

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My earliest post on this thread was as simple answers I could have given without splitting hairs or going into details. Not-so-surprisingly there are people who watched the mini's (not even the entire thing) or skim the books, possibly never even both, and just want easy answers to questions. Trying to answer questions from posters who want to know but haven't read the books or have no context entirely is an experience which I am sure you've had. Trying to answer those questions without spitting out the words "just read the books" is an art in itself. Depending on who I am responding to, I often find it beneficial to more or less answer concerns with generalized statements to questions that original posters have so as to not confuse issues even further. As rich as the Dune universe I have seen where attempts to answer questions frustrates the questioner and the responding poster.

Now we have Junior and Judas' work to contend with. The results of their vision are painful enough to describe by themselves, let alone attempting to reconcile their retcons with the originals if it is in anyway possible at all. I only read the one prequel of theirs and Hunters of Dune so there are gaps for me even then, so I try to avoid questions springing from their work.

There was decidedly a desire to creat a male Bene Gesserit, but wasn't there also a desire to create a being that provided perfect prediction a la the prescience of Guild Navigators?

That was also the place the Bene Gesserit could not go, that no woman could go ... though Pinky and the Brian have turned that on it's head too when they created their dea ex machina for the Sandworms of Dune in the prequels.

That begs the question: do Guild Navigators themselves have perfect prescience? I remember back to Dune Messiah, I know that the conspirators actions were shielded from Paul but I am not sure if any of Paul's actions were completely open to the Guild Navigators either. Then in either books Hunters and Sandworms the Guild Navigators seemed rather incompetent or that could have been simply the result of Leto's pressure upon the subjugated empire.

Not necessarily. Paul could not see anything where another prescient was involved, even a limited one such as a Guild Navigator. Alia, being of the line of the Kwizatz Haderach, may have been similarly protected from his foresight even though she was frustrated in her attempts to see the future. Only Leto was able to see the activity of most shielded individuals, though not those concealed by a No Globe -- and thus would have been frustrated by their ubiquity in his distant future.

Of course when I said that I was referring to Paul's particular vision, I meant that Paul's particular interest was only seeing that Chani's death didn't happen, so he sacrificed other futures for the one he wished to avoid. Even if he did not see it via prescience one does not need a Mentat to see that Alia was already called Abomination and if the one steadying influence (if he had any influence upon her at all) left that a maelstrom of trouble would follow. Alia's fate might have been shielded up to a point but do we really have anything to suggest that Paul did not see it happening?

And as far as No-Globe technology and Leto are concerned, remind me, didn't No-ships and No-globes come to fruition in response to Leto's suppressive activities? I remember No-rooms and similar mentioned in God Emperor of Dune but not before. While the No-ships technology could shield it in itself, could Leto have seen that such things were being built? It is likely. After all did not the Bene Gesserit suspect that Harkonnen no-ship on Gammu was built during Leto's time. After all, how many Harkonnen's could have existed after Dune? Was Feyd-Routha's father Abulurd still alive at the time of Feyd's death? We don't know. Then there was Feyd-Routha and Margot's daughter, who we never here about again (in the originals). I mean really how could have any of them pulled that off without Leto knowing, even if he didn't "see" it. It does not seem like a likely possibility.

How do we know that Leto didn't see their creation but did nothing to stop the spread of a no-ships popularity, anyway? Not being able to see a room is all well and good; but, there might be ways around that. Maybe that is what Leto took as inspiration. Breeding with a purpose; that is something he know. How do we know that it is because the no-ships exist was why Leto was able to have an idea about shielding people from any vision? Leto didn't strike me as the type to worry about his fate so long has his job (preserving humanity) was done. Having the ability to where "seeing" people becomes virtually impossible, that's a different ball-game all-together. And as it works out he was no longer needed once he was unable to see (a la Siona).

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1) I never fully understood what the 'place' that the BG Reverend Mothers couldn't go to (and were afraid of going to) but that Paul could was...basically, what was that 'place'?
1(a) Could anybody else go there (i.e., Alia (pre-possession))?
1(b) Why is it that they (the BG) said women couldn't go to that place?

Herbert defined males and females as having different natures. In the first book, he says women are the giving force, and males are the taking force; it's still a bit of a cryptic explanation and doesn't really define what that 'place' is. The way I've interpreted it you need to understand a few things:

First, that the Bene Gesserit represented the pinnacle of female evolution (via selective breeding over countless generations), both in mental, physical, and chemical development and awareness;

and Second, if you understand the idea that all humans start out female (XX), and males (XY) only develop their features later in pregnancy. Therefore males possess a nature females don't, in addition to the basic female nature. So if the Kwisatz was the male equivalent of a BG, he'd be the pinnacle of male evolution, able to go where the females go, and somewhere else.



2) When Paul took the water of life and went to that 'place' where other's couldn't (see question 1 above), did he also gain all the memories of his families ancestry?

He'd gain all memories (and the personalities that go with them) of his ancestors and that of his parents up until the moment of his conception.



3) Why didn't Paul (during Dune and Dune Messiah) try and teach Alia how to deal with her ancestral memories and develop her own unique personality and identity (thus, helping her from becoming possessed), especially since he and others knew that she was pre-born and had all of her ancestral memories at birth?

It was two different situations. Paul's personality was fixed before he received additional memories; Alia was given the memories before she could even develop a personality of her own. Even if Paul tried, he wouldn't be able to relate. If anyone could relate, it would've been the twins, but by then, Alia was too far gone.



3(a) Was Paul not able to predict that Alia would have problems dealing with her ancestral memories (which seems odd to me because even if that wasn't a part of his visions, he should have at least been able to logically deduce that she would face such monumental problems) or was her downfall part of his 'path' for humanity (the path that kept Chani alive and with him the longest even though it would lead to the stagnation of humanity)?

He probably did see it, but you have to realize that most of Paul's life after he moved to Arrakis was in trying to prevent the most catastrophic future. From early in his childhood, the Atreides mentat Thufir Hawat was secretly training him to be a mentat. Both miniseries never went into full exactly what this meant, basically — mentats were human 'computers,' able to 'compute' probable outcomes based on accumulated data. When Paul was exposed to the spice in the Dune air, food, and water, and then later, when he took the Water of Life, it multiplied that ability times a billion: in addition to being able to see and predict the small things on a second-by-second, minute-by-minute, day-by-day basis, he could glimpse the greater currents that govern the future, as well as a looming, and seemingly unavoidable future. He was desperately trying to change that which, perhaps, he did not have the power to change, as the affairs of human currents often have a mind of its own.

Can you imagine having that ability? A normal person would have been driven mad, not just by the ability to see such things or the inability to block it out, but also the helplessness that goes with being unable to prevent it. Paul was very much in his own head. It is doubtful that he would've been able to help Alia, as he had his own problems to deal with.



4) Is the reason why Paul and Chani's first son wasn't pre-born because Paul had yet to take the water of life by the time of the child's birth?

Pretty much.

The twins were preborn, though, and the male twin, Leto II, was also a Kwisatz Haderach right out of the womb. Again, this is where the miniseries deviates; but there is a limitation to prescience: the prescient cannot see the prescient, that is, if you are an oracle, you cannot see another oracle. Herbert never really explains why this is, I interpreted it as that oracles have the power to change the conditions of the present, which changes the future, in the same way the Dune tarot in the second book <i>Dune Messiah</i> messed with Paul's prediction ability.

Paul saw the death of Chani in childbirth, and only saw a daughter. He had no idea a son would be born, and the moment of revelation was a shock, when his son was able to reach out through Paul's memories of his future (it's weird the way this works) and allow Paul to use his eyes to kill Scytale.



Anyway, I hope this helps. This is just my take on it, and like any really good work of fiction there's more than one way to interpret it.

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