Germans are being stereotyped again - The Lost Battalion (2001) Discussion

[–] scotthendo 16 years ago

"Why we are portrayed as fanatics or persons with personality disorders".

Gee let me think, oh I know, you started 2 world wars!

What we do in life, echoes an eternity!

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[–] jonasgr89 16 years ago

You aren't that good at histroy,are you ?

The WW1 was started by Serbian fanatics who shot the K.a.K./Austro-Hungarian crown prince.
The K.a.K. declared war on Serbia,which was an ally of Russia.
Russia was an ally of France,which was an ally of Britain and so on.
Because we were an ally of Austria,Germany automatically (had to) declared war on Serbia,Italy,Russia and the Entente.
So as you see,Germany actually got "lured" into war and the WW1 was just some kind of chain reaction.
If half of the world wouldn't have fought Germany/Austria on 3 Fronts plus colonies and if there wouldn't have been strikes and riots among the German Empire,we would have won the war.

As for WW2,Hitler/Nazi-Germany demanded some of their former provinces such as the Rheinland(which was just occupied by the French),the Sudetenland and on the other hand Danzig (because there was no passage from Pommern to Eastern Prussia) and Austria.
Those demands actually were fulfilled,except Danzig.
Ribbentrop worked out a 15-step-plan for Poland,which would have fulfilled the German demand on Danzig in a friendly and acceptable way.
Poland declined,Germany declared war on Poland.
Once again this started a chain reaction,France and Britain declared war on Germany because of their alliance with Poland,the Soviet troops marched into the "German parts" of Poland,which also meant war.
A couple of years later Japan had to declare war on the USA because of famine and material crisis due to the American blockade on Japan.
Once again,if there wouldn't have been more then half of the world against us and the sudden Russian winter,we also had won this war.
Which would've been a disaster.

So as you see,the winner always writes the history.
But if you'd really look at the facts,you'd see a pretty different story,also called the truth.

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[–] sillymaster 16 years ago

Hey, I'm an American. I am of English, Irish, and yes, German blood. My ancestors fought FOR America against Germany in both World Wars. Germany was overly aggressive in both wars, especially the second one, and deserved to lose both.

Do not get me wrong, however. I am a fan of military history. As such, I recognize the strength of the German army in terms or organization, armament, tactics, etc. during both World Wars.

I am a critic of both France, one of the most timid nations anyone has ever heard of, and the Soviet Union, as communism is an almost hallucinogenic-fable form of government. Also, I just do not like Russians.

However, if not for America, the Soviet Union would have collapsed under the might of the German forces.

But the Germans would have had a tough time defeating America. In fact, America would have beaten Germany no matter what.

Forget all the Allied powers and the Axis powers. Just between America and Germany, there would have been a complete American victory. Chalk it up to a greater amount of resources, industrialization, and manpower... but the result would have been the same.

Trust me, to this day I am much more favorable to Germany than I am to Russia.

This does not change the fact that the US. would have beaten you anyway.

We All Go A Little Mad Sometimes.
- Norman Bates

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[–] wiltvid 16 years ago

Mr. "sillymaster"

The topic of our debate is "Germans beeing stereotyped by Hollywood Movies".
I do not know, what your quote "Also, I just do not like Russians" has anything to do with our topic. A statement like this might out you as a person, that you probably do not want to be. Many people take a dislike = hate equation.
So I find your statement somewhat racist, because I'm a german of russian
heritage. My Mothers family had a good going business in Riga (now Latvia but part of the russian empire until the russian revolution) . They lost everything
and had to flee to Germany. There She married my Dad, and our family imigrated
long after WW2, to Canada. I'm a canadian citizen now. Nevertheless, I'm still proud of my european culture and heritage.
It also tells me, that you despise your own fellow countrymen of russian heritage. Did you even know, that your own army was comandet by a russian born General: General Shakashvilj. In the 70's and 80's.
Over 4 million russians imigrated to america after the bolshevik october revolution.
Do you have a simular opinion of people of other colors than yours ?
The last time germans voiced a dislike about other nationalities, it was during the third reich. And you probably know what the result of this talk was.
I'm also part jewish, and You really do not want to go there closer to this topic with me.

My topic never included a challenge, and neither did I raise one.
Now you made another very uncalled quote: "America would have beaten Germany
no matter what" & "This does not change the fact that the US would have beaten
you anyway"
Post war germans do not talk like this at all, they are in the fast majority
sick and tired of being used for military conflicts and wars.
We simply do not want to beat anyone, we like to be friends to anyone, we would like to trade with them and we like to have a cultural exchange.
The last time germans talked like that, was when the Nazi's where in charge,
and it was the lingo of the common, uneducated german Hitler supporting folk.
Do you want to be put into that category ? I don't think so.
Sometimes I'm afraid that Hitlers poison has spilled over the ocean.
However as long as America has great minds like Ron Paul, Noam Chomsky,
Bill Maher, Micheal Moore, Phil Donahue and some other brilliant people, I'm not
to worried.

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[–] scotthendo 16 years ago

Yes, the poor germans, innocent little lambs.

What we do in life, echoes an eternity!

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[–] wiltvid 16 years ago

Yes, I truly believe you LOVE to see people crying.

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[–] jwiles1 16 years ago

You aren't that good at histroy,are you ?

The WW1 was started by Serbian fanatics who shot the K.a.K./Austro-Hungarian crown prince.
The K.a.K. declared war on Serbia,which was an ally of Russia.
Russia was an ally of France,which was an ally of Britain and so on.
Because we were an ally of Austria,Germany automatically (had to) declared war on Serbia,Italy,Russia and the Entente.
So as you see,Germany actually got "lured" into war and the WW1 was just some kind of chain reaction.
If half of the world wouldn't have fought Germany/Austria on 3 Fronts plus colonies and if there wouldn't have been strikes and riots among the German Empire,we would have won the war.

Technically, most of this is true. However, it doesn't negate the facts that it was Austria Hungary that first declared war on Serbia and used the assassination as an excuse for invasion. And it was Germany that first declared war on France and Russia, and it was Germany that violated Belgium's neutrality, and it was Germany that first invaded France. Germany and the other Central powers certainly did not deserve all the blame for World War I, but they were hardly just a victim of circumstances. Also the Germans engaged in a unnecessary Naval Arms race with Britian, and one which they really couldn't win.

As for WW2,Hitler/Nazi-Germany demanded some of their former provinces such as the Rheinland(which was just occupied by the French),the Sudetenland and on the other hand Danzig (because there was no passage from Pommern to Eastern Prussia) and Austria.
Those demands actually were fulfilled,except Danzig.
Ribbentrop worked out a 15-step-plan for Poland,which would have fulfilled the German demand on Danzig in a friendly and acceptable way.
Poland declined,Germany declared war on Poland.
Once again this started a chain reaction,France and Britain declared war on Germany because of their alliance with Poland,the Soviet troops marched into the "German parts" of Poland,which also meant war.
A couple of years later Japan had to declare war on the USA because of famine and material crisis due to the American blockade on Japan.
Once again,if there wouldn't have been more then half of the world against us and the sudden Russian winter,we also had won this war.
Which would've been a disaster.

So as you see,the winner always writes the history.
But if you'd really look at the facts,you'd see a pretty different story,also called the truth.

You make the Germans sound as if they were some innocent and injured party. Under no circumstances was Germay's failure to obtain the Danzig corridor an excuse to launch a invasion of Poland.

And I have never seen any reports of famine in Japan (well not before the war anyway). They invaded China, then Indochina, and we cut off shipments of oil and other resources to them. No food shipments were affected.

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[–] wiltvid 16 years ago

Both of you are partially right, and jonas did not say germany was innocent.
I believe the jingoist at both sides where the ones to blame.
For the majorities of the populations in all the european countries, previous wars like the napoleonic, the 1848 insurrection (germany, austria + hungary),
Solferino , the german vs french conflict of 1870, the paris comune, the crimean and the russo japanese war where still in everyones memory.
The people in general where allready tired of wars. The countries involved in WW1 where corrupt monarchies who did not yield to the peaceful wishes of their population, rather paid respect to jingoists and warmongers that suited their ambitions. In germany we passed insurance and labour laws, and the Kaiser had to allow social laws, after being pressured by parliament to pass them. He was losing influence and power, a democratic movement in germany was on the rise.
Without the war, the germans would have stripped the Kaiser of most of his executive powers, probably before 1920. Britain, France, Russia,Austria and Italia where undergoing a simular process. France specially with changing from
republic to monarchy, than from monarchy to republic again, keeping a military cast bend on revenge for 1872. I want to state the military, not the population. The powerbrokers wanted a war, just to avert the democratic movements in their respective countries. That, and only that was to blame for WW1. It is sad to see the rise in western countries towards jingoism again.
It is clearly visible on this forum. Is it really so difficult to learn from past mistakes: In War there are no real winners, only loosers.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] Mustang_o5 15 years ago

While I concede that Germany did not start WW1, it certainly aggravated it by invading neutral Belgium (bringing Britian in) and sinking neutral shipping (bringing the U.S. in.

I can see no logical way that WW2 can be blamed on anybody but Germany, or at least Hitler, who was the semi-elected leader of Germany. They were the first to declare war, unnecessarily and knowing the full risks of their actions, including bringing France and Britain in. Yes Danzig connected East Prussia, but it also cut off Poland from the sea, making it important for both countries. It was clear this was no fluke that dragged the innocent Germany into a war, as the Germans later declared war on numerous neutral countries who were relatively small and defenseless, ie Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Norway, and Yugoslavia. This was the obvious reason that "more then half of the world against us" as you declared war against most of them and scared the other half into the Allies camp.

Oh, and one last thing, "the sudden Russian winter" isn't so sudden, it comes every year and is harsh every year. Maybe Hitler should of thought of that and had a contingency plan for fighting past October.

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[–] !!!deleted!!! (6241938) 11 years ago

Germany started WORLD War One when it declared war on Russia. At that point WORLD war was inevitable, because the Schlieffen plan required simultaneous attack on Russia and France, attack on France was to go through Belgium, which would bring Britain to war.

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[–] writelasse 16 years ago

It is always funny to see those pale half-decadent cynical "german" higher officers (this movie, Harts War, a countless others) on the one side and the fresh and healty american regular GI on the other. :-)

By the way, the shouldnt have used the same guy to speak all those german/prussian/militaristic lines in every battle and German HQ-scene. It gets boring after a while.

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[–] auchlander 16 years ago

LOS LOS AUF DER LINKEN SEITE SCHNELL SCHNELL SANITÄTER MASCHINENGEWEHR!

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[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] wiltvid 16 years ago

Quote:
"It's been a while since seeing it but I don't remember A Long Engagement having as much to do with the war as the relationship of those affected by it."
Quote End

You are on the wrong Board, This Board deals with:
"THE LOST BATALLION"

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[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] wiltvid 16 years ago

Your Quote:
You brought it up genius.

You said: "If you want to see a good movie aboot ww1, watch "A VERY LONG ENGAGEMENT""

The Lost Battalion was a far better historic account of a WWI battle than Long Engagement was on WWI in any way. LE was relationship focused. LB was on an actual event during WWI.
End of Quote

GOOD !
Ignorance is not the absence of information, rather the choice of not informing yourself.
If you would have read the whole thread of this topic, you would not have drawn
such a conclsion. So I felt inclined to deliver for you a polemic "uncompleat" answer.

Your recomandations are very good, I have seen both of them. I compared the character debtness of those 2 BBC productions to LB, and I noticed real characters in the british poduction vs the sanctimonious saints in LB.

Now here are some of my WW1 recomandations for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuB3wI2ZpOU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwwGE_oxjbE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfUaw0BfaZA
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0456781/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2CbYjruTcI
http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=rigas+sargis&x=11&y=9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnQN2znzofA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoMJf7CHLqA
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0847759/

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[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] wiltvid 16 years ago

By no means I was adressing you with the "ignorance" sentence.
please don't take it personally.

To the links:
Simply click on them to highlighten them (individuallY) in dark blue,
make a right mouse click and choose "copy"
Go on top of your screen to the [browser]
and "paste" the individual link into the browser.

It's called "copy and paste"

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[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] wiltvid 16 years ago

I don't care what you believe, just keep living in your bubble.

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[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] wiltvid 16 years ago

Okay, I'm not jumping on the gun, de-escalation is more on my agenda.
I hold no grudges, I have been called all kinds of names, does it matter ?
No.
You have to live with your actions,opinions and grudges, not me.

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[–] auchlander 16 years ago

people who post on forums are being stereotyped again

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[–] wiltvid 16 years ago

Yes, and a lot of testosterones running wild.

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[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] wiltvid 16 years ago

Oh, my apologies:
I forgot your hormons run in circles.

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[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] wiltvid 16 years ago

Sometimes it is not a bad idea to swallow a toad, be humble and modest.
Not to shoot first and ask questions later.

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[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] wiltvid 16 years ago

Now we can start again.
And now I would be interested in your thoughts about the websites to the other
WW1 movies, I posted.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] wiltvid 16 years ago

I don't understand your question : " Fix those links"

I just tried them again, by using the [copy and paste] feature, and they work fine.
Unless you want to teach me how to implement the links like you do.
I'm just an old peacenic fart, with little computer-skills.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] bradleyoic 8 years ago

Don't worry, most Americans that share the ignorance of the one you are conversing with are old and dying out. It's a shame that the good guys are dying along with them. My grandfather fought in Germany in WWII, and met many friends that were German soldiers taken prisoner. In the end people are people, and war is hell. He in fact still wrote to a few regularly up until he died 2 years ago. He stated that most Germans he met, as a whole, were not fanatic at all, but just wanted the war to be over, with Hitler gone and a country still halfway intact to call home. 99% of Americans realize this, but it was just such an anomaly in history, it's hard not to study the worst villains, and people always remember the bad deeds, not the good.

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[–] badd_boi_wrestler 16 years ago

I agree- but in most cases, the portrayal of the germans (or any enemy of any country) is more of a theatrical tool that anything else. Instead of making the audience dislike the German high command in this movie by physically portraying them(which wouldnt directly relate to the focus of the story line), the director used a substitute- in this case the german infantry. It is much easier for a given audience to simply hate the germans or the turks rather that their leaders because they can directly see the german troops killing americans. Instead of explaining, in great detail, the decisions of a few men that caused thousands upon thousands to be killed, it is easier to show that the enemy is bad, and that they hate the protagonists. Once the antagonists are de-humanized, the finer points of reality are lost and the audience can focus on the storyline and not worry that the enemy is suffering. It is all tied into the classic theatrical elements. Each story is told from a particular point of view. Once the audience sides with the protagonist, it becomes easier to understand the focus of the story. Everyone is human, yes. But, this is just a movie, not a documentary, and in the real world each person has feelings- and people die. In the future, maybe we will see more realistic portrayal of human beings in cinema; this might lower hatred towards one-another and we might all learn to see the other side.

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[–] rmiikku 14 years ago

Movies need bad guys and that why ww1 is seldom used. World war 2 is great for black and white view of war. I think director is doing his best not to make germans look bad. Germans have officers of moral standards, and soldiers are there just cos they are told to do so.

In my opinion germans are not ones to blame for second world war. Second world war was just essential to settle differences of first world war.

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] wiltvid 13 years ago

Thanks for your kind compliment, and how do you think makes this comment reflect on you ?

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[–] Hotrodder 13 years ago

The Germans in WW1 didn't have to invade Belgium, etc did they? Nor attack France? They could have just remained on the defensive. Instead they engaged aggressively in a war and were responsible for the deaths of millions.
Their behaviour in Belgium and France was pretty disgraceful too, and was repeated again in WW2 only much much worse. Portrayed as savages, ready to murder? Hardly surprising really considering the evidence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Belgium

"I was left in no doubt as to the severity of the hangover when the cat stamped into the room."

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[–] wiltvid 13 years ago

Off course, you are right.
Just keep in mind, that they did that on the Kaisers orders, a warcriminal by all standarts of today.
The media all over europe sucumb to jingoism, thus dehumanizing "the other side".

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[–] doublethink03 9 years ago

Well, they need to de-humanize the enemy in order to justify their overseas wars.

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