MovieChat Forums > Clément (2003) Discussion > Does Bercot even think about what she is...

Does Bercot even think about what she is doing to Olivier?


I don't want to argue the merits or lack thereof contained in this film, but does Emmanuelle Bercot even consider what she might be doing to Olivier Guéritée? He is a boy and she is placing him in very, very erotic situations with a much older woman. There is no way that doesn't have some kind of impact on Olivier.

What kind of parents allow their little son to do this kind of trash? I just don't get it. There is no doubt that Olivier is going to be changed, scarred from this experience. Weird.

If Olivier was a little girl and had made this film with a man, charges would have been (rightly) filed. There simply is no defense for this kind of thing.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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You do realize this is just a film and the French are very different than Americans right? Much more open. There is plenty of films that have the genders switched.

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1. I would say the same thing if the genders were switched.
2. The French and Americans, and basically the entire world are of one mind concerning child pornography.
3. Just because it is a film doesn't justify a child being filmed in various sexual situations with an adult. Would the rape of a child on film be justified because it was just "a movie"?


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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Once again, not to be rude, but you do show a very closed mind and lack of understanding of the different feelings people in the world feel. I'd like to make a few points here concerning your points.

1. For this, I say good for you. At least you don't go by a double standard that many do. I applaud you for this.

2. Actually, the French and Americans are not of one mind concerning child pornography because the French see nudity in a different light than Americans. Much of Europe really has a different view of nudity than the United States does. Europe doesn't see nudity as taboo at all, whereas America does. Concerning child pornography in Europe, I advise you to watch movies such as Tendres Cousines or Spielen wir Liebe and than say that Americans and the rest of the world are of one mind concerning child pornography, because I can guarantee we aren't. As an American, I can guarantee that Americans and French do see many things differently, which includes nudity and pornography. Also, check out Lust och fägring stor, as well. In the three films I mentioned, one of the main themes is a teenager's sexual awakening and all films depict underage sex, two of them graphically. In Lust och fägring stor, an underage student even has sex with a teacher, and in Tendres Cousines, 14 year old Julien makes love to not 1 but 2 maids I believe they were, as well as his slightly older female cousin. As an even more eye opening look at how Americans and Europeans see child pornography differently, check out Spielen wir Liebe. In it the opening shot is a nude young teenage boy. Also, in the film, he actually has sex with not one but two young teenage girls. And yes, nudity for all three young teenagers is present. I doubt any of the young actors involved, however, were scarred or severely changed because of the experiences. I also mention Private Lessons and Amor Estranho Amor earlier. In Private Lessons the kid makes love to a much older housemaid not once but twice, and it's not even a foreign film. In Amor Estranho Amor from Brazil, a kid no older than 13 has a dream sequence where many nude adult women are all over him. Also, near the end in the scene that Xuxa hates the most, she is naked on top of him making love to him. I seriously doubt these teenagers were scarred, either. In fact, they may have actually enjoyed their scenes a little bit. As I said in a previous post, the ones that are most likely scarred are the adult women who have to make love to the teenage boys. They are the ones who are probably most psychologically affected by such roles because they have to question their own morality in such roles. Quite a few teenagers, on the other hand, just don't care. Heck, I even wish I was as lucky as they were when I was that age, and I plan to remain a virgin my entire life so that's saying something.

3. Actually, the fact that it is a movie does, indeed, justify it. The sexual situations, or even rape in some cases, are actually part of the story. Without them, there'd just be no story. They are pretty much one of the key points of movies such as Private Lessons, Tendres Cousines, Spielen wir Liebe, Amor Estranho Amor, Lust och fägring stor, and many, many others that I could name off the top of my head. It's a major plot point in Lolita, as well, which was a very pivotal film in its own right.

Please, my advice to you is to wake up to the world around us. Americans and the world do not see everything, including child pornography, in the same light. Now the rape of a child by an older person, on the other hand, is a totally different story. I'm sure we can all agree that that is wrong no matter where you're from, and anyone who would actually harm a child in any way should be tortured within an inch of his/her life before being killed outright. Just my feelings, anyway. As an American myself, I have to question where you are from yourself, Bladerunner, because you sound like yet another close minded American, which, sadly, there are too many of. If you're not an American, than I would surely be surprised because your statements do sound very American. I should know on account I'm one myself and hear many close minded statements like yours from other Americans regularly.

By the way, I will apologize right now if I've offended you in any way. I'm just stating what some of the facts of the world really are. The world may not be how you like it, but it is what it is.


ALL HAIL THE HIGH QUEEN!!!!!

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First of all, I think it's very counter-productive to assume I'm close-minded. Of course, it would be very easy for me to say the same thing about you, but calling someone close-minded because they differ with you, is frankly, well... close-minded. ;-)

Secondly, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "once again". When have you ever said this to me before?

Next, I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The French and the Americans are definitely of one mind concerning child pornography. We're not talking about distinctions. We're not talking about child nudity. We're talking about child pornography. While we may disagree what *constitutes* child pornography, we both agree that - what we consider child pornography - is wrong.

I seriously doubt these teenagers were scarred, either. In fact, they may have actually enjoyed their scenes a little bit.


That, is very, very naive. Just because a child "likes" something does not mean it is good for them. Children would "like" to eat candy for breakfast, lunch and dinner, but would that be good for them? No. A child might well "like" something immensely, and that thing might be fatally deleterious for them. Take for example, the children I met while in Matamoros that huff gasoline. They intensely "like" huffing gasoline, but it is fatal to them after a very short number of years. If you think that a child "liking" something is the criteria for determining whether that thing is good or bad for said child, you have a lot to learn.

Don't you know that *some* children that have been sexually molested "liked it" - in some way - at the time? That is one of the big problems for *some* victims of sexual abuse, their body experienced some pleasure during the activity and they feel very, very guilty for that. They feel, because they felt pleasure, that they are "bad". Let me be clear: this only occurs with *some* victims of sexual molestation. Does this mean that just because they may have experienced pleasure during some of the molestation that it was good for them? Was it okay? Did it not have a profound, hurtful, destructive, devastating impact on their lives?

The boy in this movie was barely a "teenager". He was still an adolescent and had no business in this movie. I had no problem with Lyne's Lolita (or the original) because she is in no blatant sex scene (they used a double) and she was 16, which is the age of consent in some states.

You didn't offend me, but you aren't stating any facts, you are simply stating your opinion, as am I.

Heck, I even wish I was as lucky as they were when I was that age, and I plan to remain a virgin my entire life so that's saying something.


I am rather confused as how to respond to a statement like that. If you are a virgin, how in the world would you know if you would feel "lucky" being in a sexual situation as these other children were? How do you know that you would have felt "lucky" being in a sexual situation with an adult as a child if you haven't ever experienced this? I realize being a virgin doesn't mean you are - necessarily - devoid of sexual experiences, but if you mean "virgin" in the sense that you have never been in a sexual situation, I think you are talking from a position of ignorance. Note I said "ignorance" and not "stupidity". All of us are ignorant of something, it is simply the quality of not knowing about something.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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You are still wrong. The French and Americans most definitely are not of one mind concerning child pornography. That is a simple fact. Your view is an extremely close-minded view.

That, is very, very naive. Just because a child "likes" something does not mean it is good for them.
Actually, that is very naive for you to say. Sex or making love isn't necessarily not good, for teens. Yes, there are times when it can be, but it just isn't necessarily so. Really, neither is eating candy as you said, but that's a different argument for a different time. If you think this, than you don't actually understand teens at all.

What you have done was just trivialize victims of abuse. If someone underage had been sexually abused, that's a totally different story entirely. The kid in this movie wasn't a victim of abuse, however. He wanted to do it.

Even virgins get sexual feelings. It is ignorant of you to think they don't. Virgins may be ignorant about the act of sex itself, but they still know about sex and still have urges to have it. They just choose to ignore those urges. Have you ever heard the phrase LUG (Lesbians Until Graduation). I disagree with it entirely, but it does explain that even virgins get sexual urges. In it, high school and, even, college girls who actually happen to be heterosexual plan to be lesbians until they graduate so they can release their sexual tension without actually having sex, thus they will remain virgins up to and including graduation.

I would have been lucky for the same reason many other men believe they would have been lucky in a similar situation. It would have definitely helped me socially.

For the 'Once again' statement, read the post I added to Zombieaddicted's post in his reply to your original post.

I did state one very key fact that you seem to think is an opinion, by the way. You seem to think that the world is of one mind concerning child pornography. News flash, the world isn't. Fact, France and the United States are not of one mind concerning child pornography. Most of Europe and the United States aren't of one mind concerning child pornography. They most definitely do see it differently than Americans do. That is a simple fact. That isn't my opinion as you seem to think it is. Their laws, actions, and, yes, even films prove that they view it differently. However, we are of one mind when it comes to the sexual abuse of a minor. That is a different story entirely, but the kid in this film wasn't sexually abused. He wanted it. Since he wanted it, I very seriously doubt he was scarred or changed in a major way. If he did anything truly against his will, on the other hand, that's a totally different story. Than he would probably be scarred for life.

You just don't seem to understand teenagers very well. Obviously, you have forgotten what it was like to be one. Sex isn't dangerous at all, even for them, if done properly and intelligently. Though I do agree teens shouldn't have sex, it won't change the fact that they will have sex anyway. But just because they do have sex, even if it was with an older person, doesn't mean it scars them for life, unless it was actually abuse, of course. That is an incredibly close-minded view that shows a lack of understanding on the part of the teen. In reality, it most likely wouldn't scar them at all. In reality, unless the sex was actually abuse, it would give the teen a very fond memory of his/her first time, so to speak. Many teens would actually be proud of the fact and the only way it would profoundly change his/her life at all is if it really was their first time.

In closing, it really seems you are confusing the sexual abuse of a minor with sex of minors in general. You shouldn't do that. They are not one in the same. Hormonal teenagers who haven't yet had sex are thinking about their 'first time' all the time. They start thinking about their first time when puberty kicks in. Sometimes this can be as young as 10. Sometimes it can be even younger, believe it or not. You just don't seem to understand adolescents very well. You think sex, especially with an older person, will scar them for life, which isn't necessarily so unless they were, in fact, molested or raped. To put minors who actually want to have sex and seek it out in the same league with minors who were molested, raped, or sexually abused in any way whatsoever would just trivialize the sexual abuse. That is something you really shouldn't do. Abuse is wrong in all it's forms, especially sexual abuse. To put rape or molestation in the same league with kids who want and, yes, even ask for sex is just wrong. It trivializes what actual victims go through, you know. I hate to say it, but it seems you lack empathy for both minors as well as victims of sexual abuse. You don't feel what they feel, which is what I mean by lacking empathy. You have one world view which is blinding you to reality.

I have to ask a final question. What country are you from? Are you from the USA? This is extremely important because it would explain why you are very close-minded concerning America's views and those of France and most of Europe.


ALL HAIL THE HIGH QUEEN!!!!!

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You are still wrong. The French and Americans most definitely are not of one mind concerning child pornography. That is a simple fact. Your view is an extremely close-minded view.


What is "close-minded" is you simply parroting the same statement without any evidence. Are you saying that French people are "okay" with child pornography? What they consider child porn? Uh, wrong. There are strict laws in France concerning child pornography. In 2007 over 77 departments of French police arrested over 300 people in over 350 homes in child porn raids that lasted four days. So, you're *wrong*.

Stop repeating the same statements and pull out facts, it will work better for you. You don't live in France and you simply don't know what the heck you're talking about. Stop pretending you're French, you're not. You're an American. Quote facts from France or just stop.

Actually, that is very naive for you to say. Sex or making love isn't necessarily not good, for teens. Yes, there are times when it can be, but it just isn't necessarily so. Really, neither is eating candy as you said, but that's a different argument for a different time. If you think this, than you don't actually understand teens at all.


Again, here we go... you make broad, sweeping statements and I quote facts about children and teens involved in sexual molestation. All you are doing is making subjective statements that have no basis in fact. My wife is a therapist and has been for 20 years, and she has seen COUNTLESS teens that have been sexually molested, by relatives, by acquaintances, by strangers and it is VERY naive for you to say that having sex - particularly by young teens in the 13-year-old range - is "good" for them.

The age of consent in France is 15, and I can assure you they take adults having sex with teens younger than 15 very, very seriously. Sorry, it simply isn't. You're wrong. Face it. French people are not "okay" with people having sex with 13-year-olds. They have laws against it. Again, sorry, you're wrong.

It is really silly for you to argue a point-of-view for which you know nothing about. You don't know how French people feel about child pornography. This is something some Americans do, who somehow feel "guilty" about Americans, or who hold liberal attitudes about sexual situations with children or young teens, they immediately run to European or Asian countries and pretend as if those Europeans are just fine-and-dandy with sexual molestation and/or child porn. They AREN'T, you're wrong. Child porn in France is swiftly, and readily cracked down on. You are insulting French people by saying they are "okay" with child porn, they AREN'T "okay" with child porn.


Even virgins get sexual feelings. It is ignorant of you to think they don't.


Wow, you totally don't read a word I say, do you? THIS is what I said:


I am rather confused as how to respond to a statement like that. If you are a virgin, how in the world would you know if you would feel "lucky" being in a sexual situation as these other children were? How do you know that you would have felt "lucky" being in a sexual situation with an adult as a child if you haven't ever experienced this?


Yikes, start reading what I write. Did I say you don't have sexual feelings? No. I said you've never HAD SEX, and you haven't. So, please answer the question, and don't throw up straw men.

I have some news for you, feelings are a FAR different thing from DOING. We fantasize about things as humans and we think something is wonderful, but doing it is often a far different matter.

Also, yes, many young virgins have sexual feelings, but that doesn't mean it would be good for them to start having sex with predatory adults. They fantasize about having sex with someone their own age, or they fantasize about having sex LATER, but just because they have sexual feelings, doesn't mean their READY to have sex NOW. Kids that are five and six and seven want to drive a car. They fantasize about driving. They drive little plastic cars. They sit on mom or dad's lap and drive in a parking lot. They WANT to drive, but that doesn't mean because they FEEL they WANT to drive, that they are ready to drive a car at five, six, or thirteen... and it's the same with SEX.

PS: Until you have sex, you have no idea what you are talking about, you only have an "idea" of how things are.

In it, high school and, even, college girls who actually happen to be heterosexual plan to be lesbians until they graduate so they can release their sexual tension without actually having sex, thus they will remain virgins up to and including graduation.


I have news for you, only they consider themselves "virgins", the rest of the world doesn't. Are you saying that life-long lesbians are "virgins" simply because they didn't have sex with a man? Haha. I'm afraid you'd have a lot of angry lesbians that would disagree with you quite vehemently.

but the kid in this film wasn't sexually abused. He wanted it. Since he wanted it, I very seriously doubt he was scarred or changed in a major way. If he did anything truly against his will, on the other hand, that's a totally different story. Than he would probably be scarred for life.


Wrong again. The age of consent in France is 15. The laws in France, made by the French people, state that a person under 15 is *unable* to make a conscious, adult decision concerning sexual involvement. Therefore, any adult having sex with a child under the age of 15 is considered - in France - as sexual molestation. The child "wanting" it means NOTHING. When are you going to get this? As I've said before, sometimes kids want to huff gasoline, but that doesn't mean it isn't incredibly damaging for them.


You just don't seem to understand teenagers very well. Obviously, you have forgotten what it was like to be one. Sex isn't dangerous at all, even for them, if done properly and intelligently.


Wrong, and wrong. I VERY MUCH remember what it was like to be a teen, and I am the father of two teen-agers. Again, you are talking out of your HAT. How do YOU know that "sex isn't dangerous at all" for young teens? Huh? Where is your proof? I stated mine! There are REAMS of research about this, and there are LAWS against children having sex at age 13, so where is YOUR proof? Huh? Quit stating your - completely ignorant - position, and state FACT.

You haven't HAD sex. You can't state from the research that children having sex at 13 with an adult is good (because the research CLEARLY states the opposite). So, where are you getting your information? From your own head? How do you know that "having sex isn't dangerous at all"? Haha. Seriously, where are you getting this? Again, you're wrong. The laws, the research, the actuality of the millions of people in therapy dealing with sexual molestation, and the LAWS of the entire WORLD prove you are WRONG.

Listen, we are talking about children under the age of CONSENT! Children that are 13, not 18, not 19, but children under the age of consent.

Though I do agree teens shouldn't have sex,


Why? If you think it's all fine and not dangerous, then... why?

In closing, it really seems you are confusing the sexual abuse of a minor with sex of minors in general. You shouldn't do that. They are not one in the same


Again, you're wrong (how can a person be that wrong, that many times, in one post?). They most certainly ARE the same. Once AGAIN... the laws concerning the age of consent in the ENTIRE WORLD state that: if an adult has sex with a child *under the age of consent* (a minor) it is sexual abuse!

Seriously, where do you get this? The French people have laws, those laws state that if an adult has sex with a child under the age of consent, it's SEXUAL ABUSE. You really know nothing about the French, do you?


I have to ask a final question. What country are you from? Are you from the USA? This is extremely important because it would explain why you are very close-minded concerning America's views and those of France and most of Europe.


I'm from America just like you, and according to your OWN reasoning, this would mean that you are close-minded too, you do realize that, don't you? ;-)

I've traveled to Europe, and I'm much, much older than you. I've stated fact, laws, and research, while you have simply stated your inexperienced, uninformed opinion. I think it's obvious who is truly "close-minded" here, and it's not me.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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Uhm, my statements aren't completely ignorant at all. Yours are. I never said that it was okay for teens to have sex or that it was necessarily good for them. I really don't know where you get that at. I said that teens will have sex regardless of what others say or do and that it's not necessarily not bad, as you said it is. Read my wording carefully, please. Your ignorance tells me that you believe sex is a bad thing all the time. News flash, it isn't.

Also, you continue to lump minors having sex in with minors who are sexually abused. This completely diminishes the sexual abuse and tells me that you really don't understand victims of abuse. Just because a teen has sex with someone much older than them doesn't mean the teen was abused. Maybe you should spend some more time with your wife. She could probably teach you to understand those who were actually abused because, I'm sorry to say, the only naive one here is you. Not every minor who has had sex with someone much older has been abused.

I did read what you wrote and did, indeed, answer your question. The straw man, in this case, is you. I would have been lucky for the same reason others would be lucky. By the way, I know exactly what I'm talking about. I've lived this life long enough to know what I'm talking about.

Unless those lesbians actually had sex with a man, then yes, they are most definitely virgins. Please, your statement shows naivety beyond belief. Lesbian sex isn't really sex at all. And as I said, I completely disagree with the whole LUG philosophy. It actually makes me sick.

Uhm, I hate to tell you this, but the whole age of consent thing is a straw man. It's only there for the eyes of the law. A child of 13 wanting sex means everything. If they want it, they will seek it out. They won't care what the law states. Once again, you show how little you actually understand teens. Stop going by the age of consent argument. It shows weakness. The law is blind and doesn't care about a minor's feelings. A minor's readiness for sex has no bearing on what other people, in this case the law, say. A minor's readiness for sex depends on each individual minor. The law saying when minors can consent is exactly like when a child predator makes the same type of decision for the child he/she goes after. It's no different. As I said, the law is blind. It doesn't depend on the law, it depends on the individual.

And I never said sex isn't dangerous at all. I said sex generally isn't dangerous. You obviously don't read my wording carefully enough. Generally, if done intelligently and properly, sex won't be dangerous, even for teens.

Again, you're wrong (how can a person be that wrong, that many times, in one post?). They most certainly ARE the same. Once AGAIN... the laws concerning the age of consent in the ENTIRE WORLD state that: if an adult has sex with a child *under the age of consent* (a minor) it is sexual abuse!

Seriously, where do you get this? The French people have laws, those laws state that if an adult has sex with a child under the age of consent, it's SEXUAL ABUSE. You really know nothing about the French, do you?

No. Once again, you're wrong. The age of consent means something only in the eyes of the law. Only the law cares about the age of consent, and that's why the entire age of consent argument is weak. There isn't a magical age when people are all of a sudden ready for sex. There just isn't. People become ready on their own time, not when a group of people say they are.

Do you even realize how naive you have been in your entire post. Minors who want and willingly have sex, even with those much older than them, are not the same as victims of abuse. This diminishes the actual plight that actual victims of abuse go through. What you just said is an insult to actual victims of sexual abuse. You obviously don't understand them at all.

Also, the laws concerning the age of consent do not say if an adult has sex with a child under the age of consent it is sexual abuse. It states that it's STATUTORY rape. The key word is statutory. Maybe you should go back to France because it seems you don't know their laws, very well. It seems you don't even know our own if you think that's what the entire world says the law states. Please, I pay attention to news across the globe. I know very well what French laws state concerning sex with a minor, and I never once said it was okay. I'm only saying that your belief that it always harms the minor is incredibly naive and shows how little about minors you actually understand. In reality, it may even be a great experience for the minor because the minor may become a more social person after the fact. If the minor was actually abused, on the other hand, than that's a different story entirely. Maybe you should go back to France and learn a thing or two more about them because you quite obviously didn't learn enough.

You are just another example of how close-minded we Americans can be. My advice to you is to broaden your horizons a little bit more. You may learn something.

You haven't stated any facts or research, at all. You've stated one French law that I already knew. And my supposed opinion, as you call it, isn't inexperienced or uninformed. It comes from my own personal research that I have done concerning the different world views around the globe. My own personal research tells me that it is a fact that the French view child pornography differently.

Please, wake up to reality and get off the whole age of consent argument. That argument works only if you work for the law. You are close-minded because you refuse to think about how the children really feel. You scream child abuse where there is none, which is completely disrespectful to children who actually suffer through child abuse. The world is of one mind concerning child abuse. They aren't of one mind concerning child pornography. That isn't a mere opinion. That is a fact. You may say I'm parroting the point if you want, but I have to parrot it because you don't seem to get it.

If you continue to be naive to the actual feelings of children, and if you continue to insult the children who truly suffer abuse as you have been, I will most certainly have no more dealings with you. You have shown to me that you are nothing but a naive, arrogant, close-minded individual who doesn't really understand the emotions and feelings children go through.

News flash, with your weak age of consent argument, Joseph, a man of God, would be in jail. By some of your posts, you're supposed to be a person of God so this should mean something to you. By many accounts, Mary was only 14 and Joseph was in his 30's, yet Mary was still old enough to consent in the eyes of God. Explain how you can be a person of God and miss this entire point. It makes you out to be a hypocrite. As a more secular argument, I could go to Edgar Allen Poe, who I believe was in his 30's when he married his 14 year old cousin. Guess what, she was also old enough to consent according to Poe's aunt. See how the whole age of consent doesn't really matter.

Many, many examples show why one shouldn't follow the whole age of consent argument. That's only there to protect our children from actual predators. It doesn't state when children are ready for sex because minors will have sex regardless of what you say or do. Their readiness for sex depends on each individual minor. Your failure to understand this very simple fact shows your extreme naivety to minors across the globe.

Please, wake up to reality and stop calling me naive and close minded when the obviously naive and close minded one here is you. Not everyone thinks the same way America or even you think. And your continual use of the whole legal age of consent argument shows how little you know and understand minors. You really should be around that wife of yours more often. Maybe she can teach you a thing or two about actual victims of abuse, and why they aren't the same as minors who want and actively seek out sex, regardless of what the law states. Whether you like it or not, there is a very BIG difference between the two. And no, not all minors who have sex with an older person, are victims of abuse. Your belief that ALL minors who have sex with an older person are sexually abused is, as I've already said, an extremely naive one that completely diminishes minors who actually were sexually abused. Stop insulting abuse victims, will you. It shows only your own stupidity.

Once again, if you continue to make asinine and blanket statements that facts show to not be true, I will have no more dealings with you. That's something I really don't want because I actually like some of the comments you've made on other boards. One last thing, what the law states and what the facts are, are two totally different things. I will parrot it one last time in hopes that it may actually get through to a skull that actually seems pretty thick. America and France ARE NOT of one mind concerning child pornography. We simply aren't. That is a FACT. Some of France's own culture prove that very simple fact, and I have done enough actual research into their culture so I know exactly what I'm talking about. They have laws protecting children as we do, yes. I'm not arguing that point. Most of Europe and America aren't of one mind concerning child nudity and pornography, however. That's where many Europeans and Americans differ. You don't know how many Americans I've spoken with who have gone to Europe and saw their openness to nudity and pornography, in general, and think that it was awkward. They thought it was strange just how open Europeans were. News flash, America and Europe do not see eye to eye on everything. In fact, many times, what's taboo here is fine over there, and vice versa. I've done more than enough research to know the facts, so don't tell me about any supposed research you've done. Maybe you need to do a little more research to learn how the French really view things.

As for you being much, much older than me. Though that may be true, you are obviously not much, much wiser than me. You obviously have a lot more research you need to do to really see how the world views things. You have obviously missed some very key points.

Here are a couple articles you should read concerning the sexual openness of much of Europe. You should look at the one concerning the Netherlands in particular. The fact remains that America and the world are not of one mind concerning pornography. We never were, and we never will be.

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_liv e/article5208865.ece
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37962-2004Dec30.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/15/AR2006 051500713.html

While they don't really have much of a problem concerning sex and nudity, they do have a problem concerning violence. What's taboo here isn't over there, and what's taboo there isn't over here. This is the simple fact that you seem to ignore. What you need to do is get your head out of your rear end and look at the actual facts. While you continue to live in your dim, close-minded view of what the world should be, I will continue to live in reality and what the world actually is. You are simply denying facts that have been proven time and time again over several decades. What the law states and what the actual facts are, are two completely different things.

Here's an article about how sex isn't as dangerous to teens as you may think.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/15/AR2006 051500809.html It's proof that if done intelligently and properly, sex isn't generally dangerous.

As for that all minors who have sex with an older person are abused comment you made earlier, tell that to Marco W. from German who was 17 and thought he was making love to a 15 year old girl, who actually turned out to be 13. She was 13 and told Marco that she was 15. It really wasn't even the girl who cried rape. It was her mother. The girl's manipulative attitude put someone who was actually innocent in jail. If you want proof, here it is http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2750314,00.html The end of the article even describes a case in America where a 17 year old was convicted for 10 years for having sex with a 15 year old, when the age of consent was 16. Yet, the 15 year old girl never cried rape or filed charges. In fact, they were in love. If they weren't caught on video, the 17 year old would have never been convicted. I don't really like Obama's policies, but in this case he did the right thing in trying to overturn the 17 year old's conviction.

All this evidence I've provided proves you wrong on all the counts you've made, and you call me naive and close-minded. You have shown that you have no clue whatsoever about what goes on in a child's mind. Wake up to reality. It isn't what you think it should be. You are proof that wisdom doesn't always come with age, you know. You are most certainly lacking in the wisdom department.


ALL HAIL THE HIGH QUEEN!!!!!

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I never said that it was okay for teens to have sex or that it was necessarily good for them.


Wrong. You really don't know what you've written. THIS is what you wrote:

In reality, it most likely wouldn't scar them at all. In reality, unless the sex was actually abuse, it would give the teen a very fond memory of his/her first time, so to speak. Many teens would actually be proud of the fact and the only way it would profoundly change his/her life at all is if it really was their first time.


and

Since he wanted it, I very seriously doubt he was scarred or changed in a major way.


So, you've stated that it won't harm them in "any way" and it's "okay" and they would be "proud" and only have "very fond memories".

So, don't lie about what you say. Take responsibility for what you say.

Your ignorance tells me that you believe sex is a bad thing all the time. News flash, it isn't.


Don't throw up straw men. I did NOT say that "sex is a bad thing all the time". No, I didn't say that. Again, don't lie. Don't pretend I said things I didn't say.

What I said was this, a child under the age of consent having sex with an adult is sexual abuse. It is wrong. It is not good for children. Why don't you comment on that? Why don't you argue what I say, and not what you want me to sway? Try that.

Also, you continue to lump minors having sex in with minors who are sexually abused. This completely diminishes the sexual abuse and tells me that you really don't understand victims of abuse. Just because a teen has sex with someone much older than them doesn't mean the teen was abused. Maybe you should spend some more time with your wife. She could probably teach you to understand those who were actually abused because, I'm sorry to say, the only naive one here is you. Not every minor who has had sex with someone much older has been abused.


The law states that if an adult has sex with a child that is legally a "minor" that sex is abuse. It is illegal.

So, what you are saying is this: if a minor has sex with an adult, and they "want" to do that, it's not abuse... is this correct? What a fool. MILLIONS of children have been - what is termed "groomed" - by adults to "want" to have sex. Many of these have been exposed in the Catholic priest trials where the priests groomed altar boys and others to "want" to ave sex with them. The children that were abused, testified as adults that they were talked into "wanting" to have sex, and it destroyed their lives. Try reading about it on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_grooming

What you don't understand is that children - under the age of consent - are not ABLE to make an conscious, informed decision about having SEX with an ADULT!

Are you saying that everything a child "wants" to do, and does, won't hurt him? Are you saying that just because a child "wants" to do something, it is good for them? Haha. Sorry, you're wrong.

Not every minor who has had sex with someone much older has been abused.


Really? And, what do you base this on? Again, research, victims, and all the laws of the entire world disagree with you.

[qote]Unless those lesbians actually had sex with a man, then yes, they are most definitely virgins. Please, your statement shows naivety beyond belief. Lesbian sex isn't really sex at all. And as I said, I completely disagree with the whole LUG philosophy. It actually makes me sick. [/quote]

First of all, the LUG philosophy is RIDICULED by lesbians, read about it.

Secondly, lesbians don't have sex? They don't? Haha!!!! So, two women stimulating each other sexually isn't "sex"? Well, I think a lot of lesbians would disagree with you. Try reading about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian_sex

That's why the article is called "lesbian sex"

Lastly, how can you disagree with the LUG philosophy and yet still agree with it? I don't get that. Can you explain that to me?

A child of 13 wanting sex means everything. If they want it, they will seek it out.


You keep doing this. WHO CARES about what a child WANTS? Quit tossing up STRAW MEN! This is not about what a child WANTS, what a child DOES or any of that. This is about an adult having sex with a child and what that IS. It IS sexual abuse. When will you get that?

I am talking about the LAW because the law represents what PEOPLE believe. The law is made by people, and the PEOPLE have decided that ANY child having sex under the age of consent with an adult is CRIMINAL, ABUSE and WRONG. Do you get that? This isn't about your opinion, this is about FACT.

The law saying when minors can consent is exactly like when a child predator makes the same type of decision for the child he/she goes after. It's no different.


Uh, how do you figure that? Haha! How is that? How is the law protecting minors from abuse, like an adult predator? Yikes, you really are on another planet, aren't you?

No, the law is NOT blind. The law is based upon YEARS and YEARS of research, experience and the PEOPLE protecting minors. I'm sorry, you can't simply say "the law is blind" and get away with it. No. Quote FACT, or just be quiet, because you can't say silly things like this all day, but it won't change the fact that the ENTIRE WORLD agrees that a minor having sex with an adult is a CRIME and WRONG.

And I never said sex isn't dangerous at all. I said sex generally isn't dangerous. You obviously don't read my wording carefully enough.


Oh REALLY? Hmmmm... well lets quote your post:

Sex isn't dangerous at all, even for them, if done properly and intelligently.


HAHAHA! Uh, I think you need to learn to read your own wording "carefully enough". Wow, you don't even know what YOU write, let alone what I write! Pretending you didn't write something isn't going to work. Sorry, it's just not.

Why don't you do something that illustrates integrity, why don't you admit you were wrong? You did say "sex isn't dangerous at all". Why don't you admit that, and admit you were wrong? Try that, you may feel better and you might salvage a little of your integrity.

Also, we're not talking about TEENS, we're talking about CHILDREN THAT ARE UNDER THE AGE OF CONSENT. STOP THROWING UP STRAW MEN. You're simply making yourself look ridiculous, and you can't argue the points. Quit putting words in my mouth and ARGUE WHAT I WRITE.

The age of consent means something only in the eyes of the law. Only the law cares about the age of consent, and that's why the entire age of consent argument is weak.


No, I'm sorry, it is not weak. The law isn't some abstract ideal. The law comes from the people, it isn't just air. The argument is powerful and pretending it's not will get you no where.

There isn't a magical age when people are all of a sudden ready for sex. There just isn't. People become ready on their own time, not when a group of people say they are.


No, I'm sorry but that is wrong. No one is ready for sex at age 2. Are they? Is anyone ready for having sex with an adult when they are 3-years-old? So, there is definitely an age when sex is completely wrong, when a child is not ready for sex, and a group of people certainly can determine that.

While it may be true that people become ready for sex at different times, the determination concerning when someone is ready for sex has no been arrived at lightly. It is based on research and experience.

Let me ask you this, which is more intelligent... to err on the side of caution or to err on the side of possibly hurting millions of children? What harm is there is a child waiting until the age of consent? What is the harm in creating laws protecting children? Is it better to simply have no law and allow adults to have sex with children whenever they want? There is basically no harm in making children wait until the age of consent, but there is HUGE harm in simply allowing adults to have sex with children whenever they want.

I have - over and over - presented scenarios where children "want" something that is bad for them. A child "wanting" something is irrelevant as it pertains to what is good or bad for them. Again, children I met in Matamoros were huffing gasoline, because they "wanted" to. Is it "okay" for them because they "want" to do this? Why don't you ANSWER this, instead of repeating the same nonsense you've stated over and over?

We are not talking about IF a child will do something, we are talking about the difference between a child "wanting" to do something and whether or not that something is good for bad for them. TRY to get on track and understand this.

Do you even realize how naive you have been in your entire post. Minors who want and willingly have sex, even with those much older than them, are not the same as victims of abuse.


That has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard!

So, what you're saying is this:

If a child is talked into getting into a stranger's car, and then the stranger talks him into having sex with him for candy or a stuffed animal, then the child isn't a victim of abuse, because he "wanted" to have sex with the stranger for candy?

Good god, that is absolutely the most idiotic thing I've ever heard.

Let me just tell you this, moron, one of my best friends was systematically abused by his grandfather for over TEN YEARS. He lived with his grandfather since he was two and his grandfather planted lie after lie into his mind about sex. He convinced him that sex was a good thing to have with his grandfather. His grandfather started touching him and telling him it was a good thing. Of course, it felt good to him as sexual touching does. By the time my friend was six-years-old he was "wanting" to have sex with his grandfather. So, according to you this is all FINE AND DANDY. This wasn't "abuse" because the child WANTED TO, RIGHT?

Well, let me tell you, my friend and COUNTLESS MILLIONS of other children that have been GROOMED into "wanting" to have sex with adults have had lifelong DEVASTATING scars and psychological damage from this ABUSE. It is ABUSE. A child is NOT OLD enough to DECIDE to have sex.

But, according to you if a child "wants" to have sex with an adult, it's not abuse!!! Wow, there is no talking with you.

I'm done with you. You are clearly too stupid to continue with.



"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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Okay, your comments are way, way out of line. Nothing I have ever said stated that sex was okay for teens or that it wasn't harmful to them. You quite obviously have a reading comprehension problem. I said that it wasn't necessarily not good and that it isn't generally harmful. There is a major difference that you quite obviously don't understand. What you have just said is a lie. Let's move on now.

Yes, you did say sex is a bad thing all the time. You accuse me of lying when the only liar is you. You said that sex with a minor is always abuse, always harmful. That is not true and that is most definitely what you said.

No, you are wrong. As I have already stated, the law doesn't say it's abuse, the law says it's STATUTORY rape. There is a big difference, there. You really should actually read the law, you know, because you don't even know what it says. Besides, what the law says and what actually is are two totally different things.

It seems you are the fool. For one, the source you bring up is Wikipedia. Completely laughable. For two, those children don't want to have sex. It is forced upon them. There is a big difference that you don't seem to realize. You cannot lump children who want and seek out sex with children who are sexually abused or have sex pushed onto them. That is completely insulting to victims who were actually abused, such as the victims in the 'child grooming' cases you bring up. What you just did is insult those victims. You should really feel proud of yourself now that you've insulted every single victim of child abuse. Good job at that.

Yes, children ARE able to and CAN make a conscious decision involving sex. You have proven with your statement that you don't understand children whatsoever. Good job there showing your complete ignorance, by the way. Just because the law says they can't choose for themselves doesn't mean they can't. As I said, what the law says and what actually is are two different things. Nice showing of ignorance on your part.

I never said I agreed with the LUG philosophy. From the very beginning, I said I completely disagree with it. It makes me sick. I never, ever changed my stance. You obviously have comprehension issues. How old are you, really, because everything you have written thus far makes you out to be nothing more than a mere child?

Really? And, what do you base this on? Again, research, victims, and all the laws of the entire world disagree with you.

I base it on actual facts. And no, research and laws of the entire world do not disagree with me, at all. Once again, you show how little about the laws of the world you know. I repeat again, the laws of the world do not state it's abuse. They state it's STATUTORY rape. What of this are you not getting? It is pretty simple. STATUTORY rape is not necessarily abuse. And no, not all victims of STATUTORY rape are abuse victims. Sure many are, but not all are. An article I've provided explained a couple examples of why they aren't ALL victims of abuse as you say.

How about you read about it. You obviously have not. Unless those lesbians have something called intercourse, they aren't really having sex. They may stimulate themselves sexually but can't actually have sex without intercourse. That is the key requirement for sex. Please, you were supposed to have learned that years ago, right. Lesbians may not agree with me, but it is a simple fact that sex isn't really sex at all without intercourse. That's where the whole LUG philosophy began. By the way, a Wikipedia source again. Why am I not surprised? I hate to tell you this, but only the simple minded and uninformed use Wikipedia as a source. I only use it myself if it's the only thing I can find.

Uhm, I'm not bringing up straw men at all. You are. You keep bringing up the straw man of what the law says, which completely ignores the feelings of a child. And again, the law doesn't state it's abuse. The law states it's STATUTORY rape. Once again, what of that are you not getting? A minor having sex with someone much older then them isn't always abuse. It is, however, always STATUTORY rape. There is a big difference there you can't seem to understand.

A minor's feelings mean everything because a minor's feelings will drive the minor's actions, not the law. Many times, a minor is going to care less what the law states. Once again, you have proven you don't understand children. And for the last time, I am stating facts.

Uhm, no, you're on another planet here. The law stating when minor's are ready is exactly like when predators say minors are ready. No one, I repeat, NO ONE can know when minors are ready for sex except for the minor. And the law is not based on research and experience at all. That's just a completely inane belief. I will say that it's based on the protection of children, however, and that I agree with.

By the way, it is a fact that the law is blind. That is the whole point of law. The law has to be blind. This is a generally accepted fact generally accepted by the majority of the civilized world. If the law weren't blind, the guilty would be set free on a daily basis. Do you want that?

Oh REALLY? Hmmmm... well lets quote your post:

Yes, and those quotes of mine say the exact same thing. Sex, even with a teen, GENERALLY isn't dangerous if done PROPERLY and INTELLIGENTLY. This isn't the same as saying sex isn't dangerous at all. You have the reading comprehension of a two year old, you know that.

You want me to stop throwing up straw men. Look up what the definition of a straw man is, please. The only one throwing them up is you. You keep throwing up the legal age of consent. That is a straw man that ignores the feelings and emotions of children. And in many cases, teens are under the age of consent, considering that teens are between the ages of 13 and 18 worldwide and the age of consent is about 15 in many, many cases, a 13 year old is below the age of consent in most cases. Please, and you want me to start stating facts. It might help if you start stating them yourself. So far, you haven't stated one.

Yes, the law argument is weak, and yes, it is an abstract ideal. Who do you think came up with the law? It is an abstract ideal made by men meant to help keep order in society. The argument isn't powerful at all. It's weak and it has always been weak. The fact that you think the argument of law is strong is completely laughable at best. Only simpletons and the uninformed think its strong.

I never said that there wasn't an age where sex is completely wrong. Comprehension issues much? I said that there isn't an age where people are all of a sudden magically ready for sex. Please, you need to go back to school and take some comprehension classes because you obviously have comprehension problems.

And no, a group of people cannot, I repeat, CANNOT determine when ONE person, in this case a child, is or is not ready for sex. That is up to each individual, not a group of people. The idea that it's up to a group of people is just sad and wrong.

And no, the determination concerning when someone is ready for sex is not based on any research or experience, at all. Where do you even get that idea at? It is based merely on the idea of protecting our children, nothing more. No research was done or experienced gained when coming to the conclusion because no research or experience was necessary. We want to protect our children. That's all that was needed.

The child wanting something isn't irrelevant at all. It is the whole point. The fact that you cannot see this shows only your own ignorance. And as I have said already, sex GENERALLY isn't dangerous when done PROPERLY and INTELLIGENTLY. I should repeat that since you have a hard time comprehending what this means that this ISN'T the same as saying sex isn't dangerous at all. They are two totally different statements.

Nice way to insult victims of abuse. You seem to do that a lot. If a child is talked into having sex by an adult, the child doesn't want to have sex at all. When someone is talked into something, they clearly don't want to do it. Only a completely naive person would think otherwise. A child wants sex only when he/she chooses it by his/her own will, not when it is pushed on him/her by somebody else. Stop insulting abuse victims. It is unbecoming.

In the case of your best friend, who I might add you just insulted, he didn't really want sex, at all. It was pushed on him by his grandfather. There is a major difference between when the sex is pushed on the minor and when the minor actually wants it that you don't seem to realize.

Those groomed into sex don't 'want' it as you claim. Once again, sex is pushed onto them. You don't seem to get the difference, and because of that continue to insult actual abuse victims.

A child IS old enough to decide when he/she is ready. Your view is completely against that of half of Europe, including France, as well as most of the world. If the child isn't harmed in any way by having sex with an adult, which I do agree is wrong, than it isn't abuse. It is, however, still illegal and is always STATUTORY rape. This doesn't make it abuse, however, and the law states STATUTORY rape, not abuse. It only becomes abuse if the child is harmed in any way whatsoever. Please, look up what abuse is.

And I'm the one who's too stupid to continue with? You hide behind straw men, cannot comprehend what I write, call me a liar when I haven't lied once, don't even know what the actual laws state, use Wikipedia as an official source, continue to insult victims of abuse by lumping them in with those who aren't abuse victims at all, and are too ignorant of the different worldviews on this planet. Yeah sure, I guess since I deal in the real world and actual facts, and since you deal in your own imaginary world that you wish existed, I'm the stupid one. LOL

By the way, as for that children aren't old enough to decide when they're ready comment, you clearly don't understand children at all. They most definitely are old enough to make their own decisions. Heck, in the Netherlands, they're old enough to decide when they're ready for sex by the age of 10. By 10 years old, they can decide for themselves if they're ready or not. You know why? It's something called maturity, which you have shown you have none of. You have also shown that you think all children are immature. In the Netherlands, they are first taught about sex as young as 5 years of age. Because of that, they are much more mature concerning sex by the time they're 10. And that's why they have reduced pregnancy, abortion, and STD rates than most other developed countries.

Okay. Time for me to turn this back around at you with your final statement. I'm done with you. You are clearly too stupid to continue with. LOL I mean, you insult a child's ability to comprehend, you insult children who have actually been abused, you insult a child's ability to choose for themselves what is good for them, you have called all children stupid and unable to think for themselves, and, most of all, you think the law knows better than each individual person what's good for him/her or not, which is completely laughable at best.

Okay, fine, you can be done with me all you want. I'll continue to live in the real world where there are actual facts and children are actually conscious beings who can think for themselves, and you can live in that imaginary world of yours with your made up facts where children are nothing but sheep and someone as ignorant about the world as you can lead those sheep children to the doom that is coming to them with you as their Shepherd. I feel sorry for those children of yours, concerning the fact that they will never come to know the real world.

News flash, you are wrong. The sad thing is, you don't know how wrong you are. I guess the fact that you continue to use Wikipedia as an official source explains it. Instead of getting all your supposed facts from Wikipedia, you should learn about what the world and, also, what children actually think. It will certainly open your mind to the truth. You are evidence as to why America doesn't have as good a standing worldwide as we used to. You are yet another close-minded American, and I've met many of them. If it weren't for the more open-minded Americans, I'd have half a brain to move out. It is simply sad how ignorant and uneducated we Americans have become. You are proof as to how sad it is. I have hope that open-mindedness will finally win out because though I disagree with many political policies in many European countries, they most certainly are more open-minded than we are, and that is actually a good thing.

Question for you, and I ask you only because everything you have stated thus far has shown complete ignorance as to what the world actually believes. Can you locate France on a map? For that matter, can you locate North America? Yes, that's right. I said North America, not the United States. It should be a lot easier for you to locate. Don't answer these questions because you have no way to prove to me that you actually can. I only ask them because you have shown nothing but complete and utter ignorance, and you have shown that you cannot comprehend a single thing I say. I say one thing, and according to you, I mean something else entirely. Please, how old are you, really? I thought you were much, much older than me. Your ideas, incorrect facts, and misunderstanding of laws tell me you can be no older than 5 years of age. If that's the case, you should go to school a few more years before claiming to know anything.

I'm out.

Learn something before responding back, please. Your post has only shown one bit of stupidity after another.

One last thing. STOP INSULTING CHILD ABUSE VICTIMS!!!!! IT MAKES ME SICK!!!
and STOP INSULTING CHILDREN!!! IT, TOO, MAKES ME SICK!!! Children CAN think for themselves. They CAN and they DO know when they are ready for sex. The law is only there to protect them from actual predators. Most people worldwide know this, and most people worldwide have accepted this. It's a reason Europe is much more sexually liberal than America. It's also one of many reasons many European children are much more mature concerning sex than American children. IT MAKES ME SICK WHEN PEOPLE KEEP INSULTING CHILDREN AND CALLING THEM STUPID. CHILDREN ARE NOT STUPID. THEY KNOW VERY WELL WHAT THE DO AND DON'T WANT, AND THEY KNOW VERY WELL WHAT IS GOOD FOR THEM. THEY AREN'T ALL DUMB INDIVIDUALS WHO DON'T HAVE A BRAIN. MANY TIMES, CHILDREN ARE SMARTER THAN THEIR PARENTS, AND WE, AS ADULTS, CAN LEARN A LOT FROM THEM!

Sorry for all the yelling. It just makes me sick when obviously ignorant, naive, stupid morons, such as yourself, equate children to nothing more than stupid sheep who can't think for themselves. You have done nothing but insult them and call them stupid. Good job insulting children. Good job showing your complete ignorance of what they feel. We cannot, I repeat, we CANNOT decide for them what they want or don't want. That is THEIR choice, not ours. We can only inform them of both the good and bad consequences to their actions, and contrary to what you so ignorantly believe, sex DOESN'T always have bad consequences, even for children. In fact, according to an article I provided from an actual expert on adolescent health, Pierre-Andre Michaud, chief of the Multidisciplinary Unit for Adolescent Health at the University of Lausanne Hospital in Switzerland and a leading researcher in European teen sexuality, sex can have some very positive affects. I'm not advocating minors to have sex, however. I'm advocating the fact that they CAN choose for themselves whether they're ready or not. Just because the law says they aren't ready to choose doesn't actually mean they aren't ready to choose. That law is just there to protect children from actual predators. The Law of it isn't the Fact of it. You really need to realize that.


ALL HAIL THE HIGH QUEEN!!!!!

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You say that you had no problem with Lolita because she was 16. Well, in Clement, the kid was 13. That's only 3 years. In terms of adolescents, three years really isn't that much. What makes a 16 year old more ready for sex than a 13 year old? You really don't understand teens if you think that a 16 year old is ready just because she is of the age of consent in most states. Just because they are of the age of consent doesn't mean they are ready for sex. The age of consent is only a legal line. It has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on an adolescent's sexual development or maturity. That depends on each individual adolescent. Who's to say that the kid in Clement wasn't more ready for sex than the girl in Lolita? You can't say that the girl in Lolita was more ready for sex because age really doesn't have a thing to do with it. Age is only a number. The sexual development of children vary for each individual child.

Tell me, how old was Mary when she conceived Jesus and married Joseph? I can guarantee that she was only a teen herself. She was on the cusp of puberty. She was only about 14 when Jesus was conceived, just one year older than the kid in Clement. Was she ready? By you logic, she wasn't, but by God's standards she was more than ready. Maybe you should pay more attention to God's standards when it comes to whether someone is ready for sex. In my book, which is close minded as well when others are concerned, someone's readiness for sex depends on if they are physically, emotionally, and spiritually ready for it. You seem to be a person of God so you should understand that. This readiness has no bearing whatsoever on a teen's age because it varies depending on the individual. If the kid was indeed physically and emotionally ready for sex, and there's no way of knowing he wasn't in Clement, he wouldn't be scarred at all by it. Please, the whole she is at the age of consent so she's ready argument is a straw man's argument. It is weak. Age of consent means nothing. That's just a legal line for the eyes of the law, not the eyes of God. God has different standards.

Joseph, by many accounts, was in his 30's when he married Mary, who was only about 15. Using the age of consent argument, Joseph, a man of God, would be in jail because Mary wasn't, yet, at the age of consent. Though Mary wasn't at the age of consent, however, she was still physically, emotionally, and spiritually ready for sex with Joseph. Jesus wasn't the only child she bore, you know. She did bear many children after him. Heck, one of those children was at the cross as one of the few in support of Jesus. He was standing right beside Mary when Jesus was crucified. As a Christian, maybe you should read your Bible a bit more concerning when people are actually ready for sex because in God's eyes, the legal age of consent has no bearing on anything. Man's law isn't God's law.

All I'm saying is that it depends on each individual. Each individual matures at different rates. There really is no magical age when people are all of a sudden ready for sex. It's not as if 'Oh look, that person is an adult so he/she must be ready for sex.' Age has no bearing on anything except man's law. Even a 13 year old male child can be more ready for sex than a 25 year old man. It all depends on the individual. The same holds true for women, as well. You seem to be of the opinion that teens know nothing about sex, which is wrong because they know a lot more about it than you think. People grow at different rates.

If 13 years old is too young now for the kid in Clement, than Mary was too young when she begot Jesus. And if that was the case, that would put the entire Bible into question, wouldn't it? Your views most definitely aren't that of the God you profess to follow so, in essence, you just made yourself a hypocrite. I hate to say it, but it's the truth. As I said earlier, maybe you should read the Bible more concerning a person's readiness for sex because it depends more on the individual rather than on the law. You know what they say, don't you. 'The law is blind.'


ALL HAIL THE HIGH QUEEN!!!!!

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Okay, I'd like to add something to Zombie's comment directed at Bladerunner. Not to be rude to Bladerunner or anything, but how about the fact that the kid probably enjoyed his scenes. He was a hormonal teenager, around 13 when the movie was made. Many teenagers at this age, guys in particular, want to 'get it on' with an older woman. To many, it would be a dream come true. To think that Olivier will be changed or scarred because of the experience shows ignorance beyond belief. It shows a lack of understanding of teenagers. I very seriously doubt he would be scarred at all. In fact, it may actually be a fond memory for him, like it would be for many his age.

Besides, you should really watch other movies based on the same subject matter, such as Private Lessons or Amor Estranho Amor. I doubt any of the teenagers are scarred from them, either. I would actually be more worried about the older actresses in their parts and what kind of a psychological factor it plays on them. We all know Xuxa isn't exactly proud of her role in Amor Estranho Amor. She is actually detested by it.


ALL HAIL THE HIGH QUEEN!!!!!

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If the kid was not scarred for life, does that make it Right ????

This woman was both the lead and the director. It would have been her job to call "cut" to end the kissing scenes. But it is hard to call cut when you are all over a boy in a love scene. The kissing scenes just went on and on. And she was all over every underage boy in the movie.
And this was not her first, in another movie she did around the same time she has a big pash with a 12 year old.

Who protect the children from these movie studios predators that seem to make their own rules.

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No, it doesn't exactly make it right. However, I wouldn't call her a predator because she actually detests the roles now. So much so, in fact, that she currently acts as if she never did them at all. As I said, it probably affects the psychology of the older women more than it does the teenagers because quite a few teenagers actually look forward to such roles.


ALL HAIL THE HIGH QUEEN!!!!!

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Not only did she star in and direct this movie, She WROTE the thing as well.
I watched it again last night and the more you watch it the more you can see how much she was into it. And the whole movie is over 2hours long, and for most of it Bercot has her hands on at least one the underage boys in the cast.
I would hate to think how many retakes it took to get the kissing scenes the way she wanted them.
And the film won an award at the Cannes film festival.?????
I think it is only in recent times that we have become aware of the female pedophile. It was always seen as a guy thing, but the number of female teachers getting caught out these days would indicate that the female of the species has managed to keep this side of their sexual yearnings under raps.
Maybe Bercot was trying to tell us something.

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I have to be clear here. I was actually talking about a different film entirely, not this particular one. I really don't know enough about Bercot to know what she was actually thinking. Still, though, I wouldn't call her a pedophile based on what is in a movie. If that's the case, Kevin Bacon is a pedophile, as well. You do recall The Woodsman, don't you? That kind of logic simply doesn't work.

You also may hate me for saying what I'm about to say but it is the truth. As much as I myself am also against pedophiles, it really is only taboo in most of the Western world. In many Asian, African, and even South American tribal cultures, it's not really taboo at all. On the contrary, it is actually more the norm than you may realize. Heck, it didn't even become taboo in the west until the 1900s came around. Edgar Alan Poe, for instance, married his cousin when she was only about 13 years old and Virginia's mother didn't really think anything of it. Of course, in Poe's and Virginia's case, there was true love involved, which generally isn't really the case today. Today, for the adult in the relationship, it is generally about gaining power over the much younger spouse and having control. As another example, there is also the Biblical marriage of Mary to Joseph. Many today actually debate Joseph's age when he married Mary. Some believe Joseph was closer to 30 while Mary was only about 15. I'm just saying it's not really as clear cut as one might think.


ALL HAIL THE HIGH QUEEN!!!!!

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